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s/o catholic/protestant thing - SOF issue


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Are there protestants who don't feel comfortable reciting the Apostles' Creed? I've recited the Nicene Creed, too, but that wasn't used as much as the Apostles'.

 

I know that some churches tweek the Lord's Prayer, too, but I wouldn't think that would make it completely unacceptable to other groups. For example, I learned "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" but I know others use debts in place of trespasses. Some also end after "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" while I learned to continue with "for thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever" and then Amen (with some in the congregation adding "and ever" after the forever).

 

The more conservative Churches of Christ wouldn't accept the Apostles' Creed on principle that they don't do man-made creeds. And they don't say the Lord's Prayer either, because, "The Kingdom has already come with the institution of the Church."

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What... besides the books of the Bible part can't you sign? Just curious. Not totally familiar with Anglicans, but have studied a bit..:bigear:

 

As an Anglican I wouldn't sign it on principle. At my church all baptized Christians are welcome to take communion and all, baptized or not, are welcome to worship with us. Such an exclusive SOF would run counter to that spirit.

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As a side note: I have determined that you must be an Ortholicipalicanian. West Coast synod.

 

:lol::lol:

 

That must have been one of my most favorite Bill descriptions yet.

 

 

 

People get bent out of shape because statements of faith are obnoxious.

 

The implicit assumption is someone who doesn't believe the same way as others (sometimes down to very fine point particulars) is going to pollute the group and therefore needs to be excluded. And (usually) that is bound up with an implication that these excluded ones are not "true Christians" which may (or may not) cause grave offense.

 

I'm surprised how you (or anyone else) would have a hard time comprehending this.

 

Bill

 

A'yup.

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People get bent out of shape because statements of faith are obnoxious.

 

The implicit assumption is someone who doesn't believe the same way as others (sometimes down to very fine point particulars) is going to pollute the group and therefore needs to be excluded. And (usually) that is bound up with an implication that these excluded ones are not "true Christians" which may (or may not) cause grave offense.

 

I'm surprised how you (or anyone else) would have a hard time comprehending this.

 

Bill

:iagree:

Yes, they do often imply that anyone that doesn't agree is not a Christian. Many churches and groups in my area have statements that exclude a lot of mainline Protestants, too. Separation is extremely important and they don't want to contaminate the flock.

 

The SOFs do alert me to who will not accept us, though.

 

So we're stuck. Absolutely stuck. My kids need extra curricular activities and they need friends who are homeschooling too. I need the support of friendships with other homeschooling moms. We would love to go on field trips. But we're Anglican, so we're stuck. We get plenty of Christian formation at Sunday School and VBS and Wednesday Bible Study and at daily at home. Can't we just have a simple homeschool group without having to make everyone jump through hoops and sign statements? Can you tell I'm sick of being excluded? :tongue_smilie:

 

Sorry about the little rant. I'm sad for my kids and it just gets old.

It's ok, I understand. We are excluded from a closed HS group, too, and the larger homeschool group in our state.

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As an Anglican I wouldn't sign it on principle. At my church all baptized Christians are welcome to take communion and all, baptized or not, are welcome to worship with us. Such an exclusive SOF would run counter to that spirit.

 

Ok, went back to reread it, but still don't see that they are talking about being baptized. (or worshipping with) Perhaps you just think it's way to narrow. It is very specific, and you can tell that they only want a narrow amount of people. Their loss ;(

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Ok, went back to reread it, but still don't see that they are talking about being baptized. (or worshipping with) Perhaps you just think it's way to narrow. It is very specific, and you can tell that they only want a narrow amount of people. Their loss ;(

 

My point about baptism was only meant to illustrate how my church takes an inclusive view of Christianity and our church community and that SOF would run counter to that inclusive spirit so that's the root of my problem with it as an Anglican.

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The more conservative Churches of Christ wouldn't accept the Apostles' Creed on principle that they don't do man-made creeds. And they don't say the Lord's Prayer either, because, "The Kingdom has already come with the institution of the Church."

 

Thanks. Another piece of information in my religion education.

 

That's an interesting view of "the Kingdom." I would've interpreted it as "heaven" I think, if asked. I don't think I ever really examined it though. I learned it as a child (I have a good memory for things like that - it was recited every Sunday, so I eventually memorized it. I don't think I ever had a Sunday school class or something where the goal was memorizing it. We never did Bible verse memorization either, but I can recite John 3:16), and like so many things you learn that way, I just memorized it without thinking about what it was saying. At least not in a nuanced way - I understood the big picture of it.

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Is the RC group exclusive? I'd be surprised if they were.

 

It has been a few years--I can't remember if they made you sign anything, but they made it very clear that their group was for RCs. It would have been intrusive or obnoxious for us to have participated. If I were running a group like that, I wouldn't apologize for the way we conducted our time together, but I would welcome people to join us if they were interested. FWIW, we begin our daily Morning Prayer with the Angelus and my kids know how to pray the Rosary. We don't do it on a regular basis, but my middle child does regularly at night when she is having trouble settling down to go to sleep or when she needs that comfort. We celebrate Marian feasts. And my husband's sermon at Wednesday Eucharist is usually about the saint whose feast day we are celebrating that week. (He is a priest, BTW, and does hear confession.) I mention those to say that whatever they were including in their co-op time that made it RC, we could probably keep up! We just have trouble remembering to stop the Our Father before the last bit. :lol: And at some point, if things in our Church continue as they are and things continue coming from the Vatican as they currently are, we will end up converting. But when we do, I don't want my children to think of it as going over to that church that didn't think we were good enough for their homeschool group. I try to be careful what I say in front of them, so hopefully they don't know that is the reason we didn't join. I hear a lot of the Roman Catholics here who are frustrated with SOFs that specifically exclude them and I'm just pointing out that some of us feel it coming from BOTH directions.

 

Anyway....sorry...I really don't mean to get this off on a rabbit trail.

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I see you are in Louisiana. Any chance you'd be in driving distance from Alexandria (well Pineville)? The first class co-op there does not require members to sign the SOF (we participated for a year before moving out of state and I am atheist).

 

Good to know, but no, we're too far away.

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What... besides the books of the Bible part can't you sign? Just curious. Not totally familiar with Anglicans, but have studied a bit..:bigear:

 

We would disagree with pretty much the same things as the RCs would. Salvation and baptism, as they are worded in that statement, would be sticking points in addition to the part about the Bible. There were a lot of "catch phrases" in all of that wording that set off alarms with me.

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If there was a Catholic or LDS or Pagan (for example) homeschool group or co-op, I feel very certain I would not agree to those SOFs at all. And I would certainly want to know going in what their beliefs and teachings are.

 

And this one is for a church. I don't get what's upsetting? Don't all churches make professions of their faith so people know what they are getting?:confused:

 

:iagree:

 

Depending on what the co-op's purpose is (educational, social, religious ed., etc.) I could see the need to be clear before wanting to join myself.

 

We are part of a PE co-op and there are many faiths represented there (Catholic, LDS, New Age, Evangelical, etc.). Fortunately, not many conversations go 'religion' focused among the moms as they hang out, but I can imagine if they did...... eeks. I think we all enjoy one another enough to set aside those differences and just be moms.

 

My family are Fund. Evangelicals, but my children's best friends are Catholic and LDS. We all just agree to disagree (where we do) and love each other just the same. We find more joy in the things we share than those we don't!

 

I do get a kick out of the kids trying to figure out the prayer time when we have them over to eat though. :001_smile:

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I've never seen a Catholic group/camp/activity have a SOF requirement either.

 

The group my dds were in is Catholic and all members were required to sign a SOF. We were also in another group with a Baptist SOF which we did not have to sign but it was more to let everyone know the leaderships foundation. I have no problems with groups having a SOF.

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That's because they all have the same faith, so there's no question what a group believes about this or that. Same with Eastern Orthodox. What we believe is the same around the world. I wouldn't need to see an SOF to send my child to summer camp in St. Petersburg, Athens or Paris. If it's an EO summer camp, I know what they believe.

:iagree: We don't have ten types of this or that. I go to a Greek EOC, but could send my kid to a Russian camp and not worry, because it's the same.

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Originally Posted by Spy Car

People get bent out of shape because statements of faith are obnoxious.

 

The implicit assumption is someone who doesn't believe the same way as others (sometimes down to very fine point particulars) is going to pollute the group and therefore needs to be excluded. And (usually) that is bound up with an implication that these excluded ones are not "true Christians" which may (or may not) cause grave offense.

 

I'm surprised how you (or anyone else) would have a hard time comprehending this.

 

Bill

 

:iagree:

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There is a local homeschool drama group here that I looked into. There was an SOF but they told me that I didn't have to believe it, just sign it. Couldn't in good faith sign it and really questioned why they even wanted me to. I just said no thanks.

So they would rather have people lie than just not have an SOF? That's pretty weird.

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It has been a few years--I can't remember if they made you sign anything, but they made it very clear that their group was for RCs. It would have been intrusive or obnoxious for us to have participated. If I were running a group like that, I wouldn't apologize for the way we conducted our time together, but I would welcome people to join us if they were interested. FWIW, we begin our daily Morning Prayer with the Angelus and my kids know how to pray the Rosary. We don't do it on a regular basis, but my middle child does regularly at night when she is having trouble settling down to go to sleep or when she needs that comfort. We celebrate Marian feasts. And my husband's sermon at Wednesday Eucharist is usually about the saint whose feast day we are celebrating that week. (He is a priest, BTW, and does hear confession.) I mention those to say that whatever they were including in their co-op time that made it RC, we could probably keep up! We just have trouble remembering to stop the Our Father before the last bit. :lol: And at some point, if things in our Church continue as they are and things continue coming from the Vatican as they currently are, we will end up converting. But when we do, I don't want my children to think of it as going over to that church that didn't think we were good enough for their homeschool group. I try to be careful what I say in front of them, so hopefully they don't know that is the reason we didn't join. I hear a lot of the Roman Catholics here who are frustrated with SOFs that specifically exclude them and I'm just pointing out that some of us feel it coming from BOTH directions.

 

Anyway....sorry...I really don't mean to get this off on a rabbit trail.

 

I totally understand and have the same experience. Also Anglican, and find that the Christian groups only mean certain kinds of Christians, and yet we are not quite Catholic enough for the RC group. Sigh.

 

Sometimes I feel like we are the only Episcopal homeschoolers in the world.

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I'm a Oneness Pentecostal (as in not trinitarian) AND we believe in following all 3 steps of Acts 2:38 is part of salvation so it's not just Catholics that this excludes. This is one of the most exclusive, specific statements of faith I've ever seen actually.

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SOF's are big in our neck of the woods. *sigh*

 

I determined several years ago that I would not participate in any educational/enrichment organization that required a signed SOF, even if I was in 100% agreement with the statement itself.

 

Obnoxious is a very kind way to put it. They are trying to limit their families' exposure to certain "kinds" of people, as am I; we are just not in agreement about which "kinds" of people we should be protecting ourselves from.

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I would suggest as a Catholic you make the appropriate changes to the statement of faith. Cross out what you don't believe change the words and then you can sign it. Our local homeschool organization has a statement of faith that is not quite this bad but that is what the catholic homeschool support group leader would do to sign the SOF.

 

Good luck!

Diana

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So they would rather have people lie than just not have an SOF? That's pretty weird.

 

That was my first reaction too. After thinking it over a bit I'm now wondering whether they were viewing people's signatures as acknowledgements that the group members understood those beliefs to be foundational to the group's philosophy, rather than viewing the signatures as affirmations of agreement with the listed beliefs. I think there is a difference between signing to say, "Yes I agree with these beliefs," and signing to say, "Yes, I understand that the meetings of this group will be conducted in accordance with these beliefs whether I agree with them or not, and I agree not to make waves about this." If you see what I mean.

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I'd say the entire SOF seems designed to exclude Catholics, and would also exclude Orthodox Christians, Anglicans, and many mainline Protestants.

ITA about Catholics and Orthodox. Which other "mainline Protestants" would it exclude?

 

:confused:

 

If a co-op is looking for an inclusive statement of faith, why not use one of the historic creeds? But, in this case, it doesn't seem like they are looking for something inclusive. I don't know why you'd mention the "66 books" of the Bible unless you were specifically setting out to exclude non-Protestants.

They're not looking for something "inclusive." They want to exclude Catholics and Orthodox as well as LDS and Jehovah's Witnesses.

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I totally understand and have the same experience. Also Anglican, and find that the Christian groups only mean certain kinds of Christians, and yet we are not quite Catholic enough for the RC group. Sigh.

 

Sometimes I feel like we are the only Episcopal homeschoolers in the world.

 

We need some sort of Anglican Homeschooling commune that we can all move to. :D

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People get bent out of shape because statements of faith are obnoxious.

 

The implicit assumption is someone who doesn't believe the same way as others (sometimes down to very fine point particulars) is going to pollute the group and therefore needs to be excluded. And (usually) that is bound up with an implication that these excluded ones are not "true Christians" which may (or may not) cause grave offense.

 

I'm surprised how you (or anyone else) would have a hard time comprehending this.

 

Bill

 

:iagree:

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SOF's are big in our neck of the woods. *sigh*

 

I determined several years ago that I would not participate in any educational/enrichment organization that required a signed SOF, even if I was in 100% agreement with the statement itself.

 

Obnoxious is a very kind way to put it. They are trying to limit their families' exposure to certain "kinds" of people, as am I; we are just not in agreement about which "kinds" of people we should be protecting ourselves from.

Sorry. I read it wrong. I do apologize.

 

Just what exactly are they protecting themselves and theirr family from? It sounds as if they expect the other Christians, Jews, Hindu, Athiests, etc., are planning to rape and pillage or murder their in your sleep.

 

It makes me wonder if their faith can't stand up to any scrutiny. "We better not play with the Lutheran children. They will be able to talk us out of our faith."

 

Insert any other faith above.

Edited by Parrothead
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That was my first reaction too. After thinking it over a bit I'm now wondering whether they were viewing people's signatures as acknowledgements that the group members understood those beliefs to be foundational to the group's philosophy, rather than viewing the signatures as affirmations of agreement with the listed beliefs. I think there is a difference between signing to say, "Yes I agree with these beliefs," and signing to say, "Yes, I understand that the meetings of this group will be conducted in accordance with these beliefs whether I agree with them or not, and I agree not to make waves about this." If you see what I mean.

 

 

That is how I interpreted SOF, but after reading this thread I see that is not how it is always used. The group I linked to showed the Apostle's Creed, but doesn't demand that you sign it. That is how I took a SOF to be used. This is what we believe. Even in signing it, I thought that the individual was affirming that that is what 'the group' believes. I somewhat take back what I said before about it not being a big deal. I do see how that would be obnoxious to others. I wouldn't want my child to be in a group that taught them something contrary to what I am teaching them though.

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Just what exactly are you protecting yourself and your family from? You make it sound as if you expect the other Christians, Jews, Hindu, Athiests, etc., are planning to rape and pillage or murder you in your sleep.

 

It makes me wonder if your faith can't stand up to any scrutiny. "We better not play with the Lutheran children. They will be able to talk us out of our faith."

That's funny. I read it completely different. Like the poster you quoted was aiming to avoid small minded or exclusionary people.

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ITA about Catholics and Orthodox. Which other "mainline Protestants" would it exclude?

 

It would exclude most, unless they were very theologically conservative.

 

• I believe that the Bible (the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments) as originally written is the only Word of God, and is truth without any mixture of error.

 

"Truth without any mixture of error" is not something that many mainline Protestants, who do not equate inspired with inerrant, would be able to affirm in good faith.

 

• I believe that the new birth Jesus provides is instantaneous and not a process.

 

This isn't something that all or even most mainline Protestants would affirm. Many--Anglicans and Lutherans are the ones I'm most familiar with--would see salvation as much the way others have described it, as both an event and a process.

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That's funny. I read it completely different. Like the poster you quoted was aiming to avoid small minded or exclusionary people.

 

:iagree:

Maybe I read it wrong. If I did I apologize. This is a hot topic for me and I should just stay away from these threads.

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ITA about Catholics and Orthodox. Which other "mainline Protestants" would it exclude?

 

Just adding my two cents: the SOF for a church homeschool group in our area would be hard for Catholic, Orthodox, and "Mainline Protestants" such as Anglican, Episcopalian, Methodist, etc. because it outright states that infant baptism is invalid.

 

I know that wasn't in the OP, but I've seen similar words and phrases use that carry the underlying meaning that infant baptism is unacceptable and true Christians only get baptized after the salvation event -- it is never a process. The group feels that separation from people that do not practice biblical faiths is very important so they are more upfront about calling many mainline Protestants unbiblical. This group is only open to believers of "like" faith.

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Good to know, but no, we're too far away.

 

Whereabouts? Metro NO and Northshore have both secular groups and Christian-based that don't require SOF, and I'm pretty sure Lafayette and Baton Rouge do as well. I know there are several LA people on the board; if you give us a general idea of what area you are in, we may be able to point you to a group.

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:iagree:

 

It would be difficult to imagine a statement of faith that was more purpose-built to exclude Roman Catholics without making such an exclusion explicit.

 

This is clearly designed to exclude Catholics (and the LDS). Not at all subtle.

 

Bill

 

I'm starting to think a memo was put out in the last couple of years:

 

The website I just wrote was for a homeschool group who specifically created themselves as an alternative to "the only other group around" - who, coincidentally required a SOF.

 

Apparently, previously, said group had a rather "general" SOF that pretty much accepted any Christian (but still no Muslims, Jews, Pagans, et al). Then it was changed to one that more or less "dumped" a significant portion of "non like-minded people" [but yes, specifically Catholics and LDS]. The "new" group took off after that.

 

People get bent out of shape because statements of faith are obnoxious.

 

The implicit assumption is someone who doesn't believe the same way as others (sometimes down to very fine point particulars) is going to pollute the group and therefore needs to be excluded. And (usually) that is bound up with an implication that these excluded ones are not "true Christians" which may (or may not) cause grave offense.

 

Bill

 

I've never really understood that either.

 

And this is exactly why we've never been able to join a homeschool group or participate in a co-op and we don't have any other homeschool friends. We're Christians! We're "saved!" We're baptized! But we can't join someone for a simple science or math lesson because we can't sign a SOF like the one above and we aren't Roman Catholic. (We could sign the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed, if that helps.)

 

So we're stuck. Absolutely stuck. My kids need extra curricular activities and they need friends who are homeschooling too. I need the support of friendships with other homeschooling moms. We would love to go on field trips. But we're Anglican, so we're stuck. We get plenty of Christian formation at Sunday School and VBS and Wednesday Bible Study and at daily at home. Can't we just have a simple homeschool group without having to make everyone jump through hoops and sign statements? Can you tell I'm sick of being excluded? :tongue_smilie:

 

Sorry about the little rant. I'm sad for my kids and it just gets old.

 

And yet, people will sign those SOFs "for the children" - insisting that little Johnny or Susie needs the interaction of THAT group and of COURSE s/he won't pick up on any proselytizing/nastiness or, and here's the biggie - the fact that their own parent is being a HYPOCRITE!

 

How's that for a rant?

 

 

(but I'm still accepting suggestions on how to improve the website... hint, hint)

 

 

asta

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And yet, people will sign those SOFs "for the children" - insisting that little Johnny or Susie needs the interaction of THAT group and of COURSE s/he won't pick up on any proselytizing/nastiness or, and here's the biggie - the fact that their own parent is being a HYPOCRITE!

 

How's that for a rant?

 

 

(but I'm still accepting suggestions on how to improve the website... hint, hint)

 

 

asta

I never get that, either, particularly the underlined.

 

On the website: could you tab or menu or otherwise arrange the category page links at the top? It looks a little busy/disjointed (I'm on Chrome)

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Just adding my two cents: the SOF for a church homeschool group in our area would be hard for Catholic, Orthodox, and "Mainline Protestants" such as Anglican, Episcopalian, Methodist, etc. because it outright states that infant baptism is invalid.

 

I know that wasn't in the OP, but I've seen similar words and phrases use that carry the underlying meaning that infant baptism is unacceptable and true Christians only get baptized after the salvation event -- it is never a process. The group feels that separation from people that do not practice biblical faiths is very important so they are more upfront about calling many mainline Protestants unbiblical. This group is only open to believers of "like" faith.

 

Um, wow. So Christians that read the Bible, and get a different interpretation of infant baptism are not practicing a biblical faith??? I REALLY REALLY hope that you didn't mean to say that.

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Um, wow. So Christians that read the Bible, and get a different interpretation of infant baptism are not practicing a biblical faith??? I REALLY REALLY hope that you didn't mean to say that.

 

I don't think she's saying SHE believes that, it's just what her local co op believes.

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That's funny. I read it completely different. Like the poster you quoted was aiming to avoid small minded or exclusionary people.

 

Yes, that was what I meant. :)

 

I am a bit sensitive on this topic myself because I have had people take the position with my family and my friends that we are not christian enough.

Edited by BLA5
A little TMI removal.
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I may be risking some wrath here, but I'm glad when groups post a SOF. I have no problem being in a group or being friends with people of different faiths, in fact I enjoy discussing our differences. But having recently moved to a new state, I do want to find "like-minded" people to spend time with, and a SOF helps me to do that. I feel that people of any faith enjoy spending time with others who believe as they do, and I see that as a good thing.

 

I've never thought of SOFs as exclusive, although this one in particular is pretty specific, I've seen them as a way to outline a groups beliefs. I've also never thought that signing one was an greement, just a statement that I understand what this group believes, so there is no confusion later. I can't get upset, say, if I join an LDS group and they start talking about Joseph Smith and I don't believe in that.

 

I've never thought of those kind of groups as "excluding others" but as "including like minded individuals". In other words, I don't think most groups sit down to write a SOF and think, "ok, how can we make sure no Catholics join?", they're thinking "how can we attract people who believe as we do?".

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I may be risking some wrath here, but I'm glad when groups post a SOF. I have no problem being in a group or being friends with people of different faiths, in fact I enjoy discussing our differences. But having recently moved to a new state, I do want to find "like-minded" people to spend time with, and a SOF helps me to do that. I feel that people of any faith enjoy spending time with others who believe as they do, and I see that as a good thing.

 

I've never thought of SOFs as exclusive, although this one in particular is pretty specific, I've seen them as a way to outline a groups beliefs. I've also never thought that signing one was an greement, just a statement that I understand what this group believes, so there is no confusion later. I can't get upset, say, if I join an LDS group and they start talking about Joseph Smith and I don't believe in that.

 

I've never thought of those kind of groups as "excluding others" but as "including like minded individuals". In other words, I don't think most groups sit down to write a SOF and think, "ok, how can we make sure no Catholics join?", they're thinking "how can we attract people who believe as we do?".

Unfortunately it is all too true. Many group leaders/founders do sit down and make sure no Catholics, some mainline Protestants, Jews, Hindu, Pagan, Atheists, Agnostic, etc., and so forth., are comfortable joining the group.

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Unfortunately it is all too true. Many group leaders/founders do sit down and make sure no Catholics, some mainline Protestants, Jews, Hindu, Pagan, Atheists, Agnostic, etc., and so forth., are comfortable joining the group.

 

That IS really sad. I must be naive, because I've never thought of it that way.

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In other words, I don't think most groups sit down to write a SOF and think, "ok, how can we make sure no Catholics join?", they're thinking "how can we attract people who believe as we do?".

 

I wish that was the case. Reading this SoF, though, it's really hard to imagine that they had any other intention. The first section, in particular, seems like it is there almost entirely to exclude Catholics.

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That IS really sad. I must be naive, because I've never thought of it that way.

 

Don't feel badly about it, I had been homeschooling for several years before I ran into this head on. It was a real shocker to me as well.

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Um, wow. So Christians that read the Bible, and get a different interpretation of infant baptism are not practicing a biblical faith??? I REALLY REALLY hope that you didn't mean to say that.

 

Why is it wrong for me to explain what another group thinks? I do not judge one's faith based on whether they immerse or sprinkle. This group does. Doesn't it help those who do practice infant baptism to know why they are being separated from and treated as unchristian?

 

Please don't twist my words to make it sound like I'm one of those narrow-minded groups. :)

 

I'm always open to conversation, but I'm sincerely hoping you misread me. ETA: I could have been more clear, though. I am do not agree with those SOFs.

Edited by Clairelise
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Unfortunately it is all too true. Many group leaders/founders do sit down and make sure no Catholics, some mainline Protestants, Jews, Hindu, Pagan, Atheists, Agnostic, etc., and so forth., are comfortable joining the group.

The group I referred to has a bit of that mindset. They approach it from a "Biblical separation" mindset, so they aren't seeing it as excluding so much as to keep the purity of the group or flock. They don't want what they see as "false doctrines" introduced.

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