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Help me decide between ALL/WWS and MCT...


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There was a thread started by AutumnOak at the K-8 forum about this just last week. I'm not choosing...I'm doing both. They are very different. It really depends on your comfort level and skill in teaching writing and how much of a natural writer your kids are. WIth my kids, if I only could have one, I'd choose ALL/WWS. I need that hand holding for teaching the details. But since I don't have to choose, I can do both. :lol: MCT gives us the love, the desire, the why. ALL/WWS fills in the details. 8FilltheHeart said something in another thread on this forum about R&S being parts to whole and MCT being whole to parts and that really rung a bell in my head. I think ALL/WWS is also parts to whole so I see it as complementary to MCT. You can use the same assignment for both. Take the skill being taught in WWS - rewriting from details given, outlining and then rewriting from the outline to do your assignments in MCT. Here's my sequence:

 

My oldest did:

MCT Island, WWE3 (4th grade)

MCT Town, WWE4 (stopped at the paragraph/essay writing lesson 11) (5th grade) (It wasn't that my son wasn't capable of doing PT, it was more my lacking knowledge/skill in teaching it. NOw that I've seen WWS and we did the Beta Test, PT seems obvious....what do they say about hindsight?)

 

My oldest will do:

ALL/WWS along with finishing Paragraph Town and doing Grammar Voyage, POetry, CEII (6th grade) (Grammar Voyage will be completed by the time ALL is available and we'll be able to skip the beginning lessons)

Essay Voyage (if we don't get to it in 6th), ALL2/WWS2

 

My middle son did:

MCT Island, WWE2 1st grade

MCT Town, WWE3 2nd grade (He didn't do any of the writing in PT, instead he did PWME and some PBW)

 

MIddle son will do:

FLL4, WWE4, Daily Paragraph Editing, Grammar Voyage 3rd grade

ALL/WWS 4th grade along w/ Paragraph Town

Edited by Capt_Uhura
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Thanks! I read that other thread and came out of it wanting to do both...not helpful! I do work nearly full-time, so I can't do both and I have to make sure some of my subjects are not overly teacher intensive. Dh is drawn to MCT (he has a PhD in Classics) and I am drawn to ALL/WWS (I have degrees in econ and accounting).

 

I am drawn to the variation in MCT (grammar for 1st quarter, then practice, vocab part of the year, poetry added at another point). It seems like that might help get through the monotony of the school year (particularly in the winter months).

 

Thanks for the input!

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LIke I said, it really depends on your skill/knowledge as a teacher. Many do MCT alone and run with it. I just couldn't do it - I was a scientist and not well versed in the classics and writing. WHen I read through MCT Paragraph Town and it said "Go write an essay" I was left thinking, "How to start? How to narrow down ideas? How to organize ideas? What's the best order to present ideas?" Those are the details to which I'm referring. Now in retrospect, I think I was jumping ahead and perhaps MCT didn't expect that level in Town but that's what I thought. So I had to back up and do some learning on my own. Now I do feel comfortable teaching Town b/c I can see a path to getting my son where he needs to be b/c WWS gave me the details. Many won't need those details filled in for them. If you don't, go w/ MCT.

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I think it depends on teaching style and learning style. I am quite sure my son would like MCT but I have made the decision to stick with ALL/WWS. He has done very well with that philosophy and I see no reason to jump ship.

 

First is price. I find MCT to be on the spendy side. Now, if I loooved it then I would happily pay the price, but I don't understand it and I am not willing to pay that much for an unknown.

 

Second, the teaching style doesn't appeal to me. I really don't like the idea of flipping back and forth between books etc. That would make me crazy. There is also something, I don't know... amorphous (?) about MCT. When I hear people talk about it all I can think of is trying to nail jello to a wall. It doesn't seem to have an over arching philosophy that I can point to and implement.

 

There is a fuzziness that makes me uncomfortable. I did join the MCT yahoo group when I was making my decision. I saw too many posts by people who had the books in their hands who still could not figure out how to teach them. Writing is about communication. And if people holding the books cannot figure it out then I have to wonder at MCT's communication skills. People have asked for him to put his lectures online or for purchase and the answer is that it needs the visuals. Well, put those up also! SWB has done so at PHP and it is very helpful. However, I do expect that a good communicator (and good writer) should be able to get their philosophy across without depending on visual aids.

 

Now, all that said, I am going to try MCT vocabulary this year and see how it goes. I am looking ahead to high school, and so far, SWB has not announced that she will be writing a rhetoric curriculum, so I am on my own. I might be open to the program for the upper grades.

 

So, given the choice, I am sticking to WWS/ALL and the audio lectures as far as I can take them. Because SWB is such a clear communicator (and writer) I can use them easily, I know why we are doing what we are doing, and I know what goals of the process are.

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Yes it most DEFINITELY depends on teaching/learning style. My boys thrive on discussion, reading together on the couch. For the same reason folks don't like BFSU, many don't like MCT. THere are no clear cut lesson numbers, no plans, no do this and then do that. You open it up, start at page 1 and go until interest wanes. For us, some days it was 10min and other days it was 35min. I don't really see it as a lack of MCT's communication skills, for me it works just fine, I think it's about teaching/learning style.

 

MCT did have me video him at the RFWP VAlley Forge conference and he's going to play w/ video. And if you've seen MCT in action, he loves his visuals!! :lol: They are not just screen shots but actual moving, interactive visuals.

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I'm thinking along the same lines as Wendy and Capt_Uhura. (Could it be VF Conference Syndrome? ;) ) I love both approaches for different reasons.

 

My plan for my 3rd grader is to do MCT Island and WWE3. I thought about FLL3, but I don't want too much and I think the grammar in Island should be enough for now.

 

For my 5th grader, I got the PDF samples of WWS and ALL from PHP, so I am definitely going to start in on WWS right away, while doing MCT Town. Like FLL for my 3rd grader, I'm thinking of holding off on ALL unless I find that Town isn't working for grammar.

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MCT did have me video him at the RFWP VAlley Forge conference and he's going to play w/ video. And if you've seen MCT in action, he loves his visuals!! :lol: They are not just screen shots but actual moving, interactive visuals.

 

:D I would love to see that when it is available to see, even though I saw all of his classes at Valley Forge...

 

As Capt Uhura mentioned, I kept going back and forth about whether to use MCT or Rod & Staff w/WWE...At one point I decided not to use MCT, figuring that is what is complicating everything...But then I just couldn't let it go...I decided to do both, at least this year...

 

This is what we are doing...I am doing the grammar launch of MCT (Grammar Island) this summer...We actually started it today...My plan is to finish by the book by August, when we will start the rest of our subjects...I will definitely use WWE and I am planning to use Rod & Staff 4 with my son this year as well...My ultimate plan is to just use MCT, I am just not ready to let go of Rod & Staff just yet...I want him to finish the level 4 book we started last year...I also want to complete WWE through level 4, then I will see if we can continue with MCT and use it as a stand alone...

 

The bottom line is that I like MCT too much to just drop it...The poetry, vocabulary, upper level writing, and MCT's knowledge and passion for the subject really attracts me to the program...I agree with Capt. Uhura, the programs are different, and since I don't have to choose, I will do both MCT and WWE...My son is playing catch up and can use the extra help ;)

 

(Could it be VF Conference Syndrome? ;) )

 

Definitely :-)

Edited by TheAutumnOak
Had to add Gailmegan's quote :-)
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I see MCT as being able to stand alone just fine. We do narrations in science and history, for example. So then there is the writing in MCT. How much more writing does a person need?!

 

I don't get why it's only a supplement.

 

I strongly believe that a teacher can use materials in a variety of ways. And teachers or parents should tailor an education to fit their student’s needs, abilities, and so forth. I am sure that for you, it can work just fine as a stand-alone course of study. For us, it’s a supplement. Personally, I like having something that my children can do independently while I work. Later, we go over it, and every once in a while, we sit on the couch and enough a good laugh with MCT.

 

Also, judging from the content of the grammar books, there seems to be a few things missing, for us anyway. But we don’t use the practice books or the writing, so it's a supplement. :D

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I see MCT as being able to stand alone just fine. We do narrations in science and history, for example. So then there is the writing in MCT. How much more writing does a person need?!

 

I don't get why it's only a supplement.

 

I really need to get my hands on the writing part and the rest of MCT...I only have the grammar book, and really need to see the writing book...We will do narrations and outlining as part of history and science, so maybe I will be able to use MCT as a stand alone sooner than I thought...

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I really need to get my hands on the writing part and the rest of MCT...I only have the grammar book, and really need to see the writing book...We will do narrations and outlining as part of history and science, so maybe I will be able to use MCT as a stand alone sooner than I thought...

 

Did you get to look at it at the convention, or did you run out of time? I didn't get to see everything I wanted to, that's for sure. Do you have specific questions about Sentence Island? I could try to answer.

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I see MCT as being able to stand alone just fine. We do narrations in science and history, for example. So then there is the writing in MCT. How much more writing does a person need?!

 

I don't get why it's only a supplement.

 

I think what we need to keep in mind is that MCT didn't write this as a homeschool program like JW & SWB did with FLL/WWE/ALL/WWS.

 

His intended audience is PS students. By the time they've reached mid-elementary, they've presumably had a lot of what is not covered in MCT like mechanics, formatting, etc.

 

I use MCT by itself during the semesters when we're using it. However, I do alternate it with other programs. So it's not exactly a supplement, but it isn't the only LA my kids do.

 

I'm considering WWS for 2nd semester next year if it's available by then. I'll have to actually see a copy though before making the decision.

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I strongly believe that a teacher can use materials in a variety of ways. And teachers or parents should tailor an education to fit their student’s needs, abilities, and so forth. I am sure that for you, it can work just fine as a stand-alone course of study. For us, it’s a supplement. Personally, I like having something that my children can do independently while I work. Later, we go over it, and every once in a while, we sit on the couch and enough a good laugh with MCT.

 

 

 

Disclaimer: last year we didn’t do grammar this way (we did Shurley Grammar/ English, which the girls hated with a passion). Kiddos are currently doing grammar independently for the most part, with MCT on the side. And they did this the year before last. :D

 

 

MCT is fabulous. I am not sure why we stopped doing it for a spell.

 

I vote for doing both. Whatever that may be for you. It seems you will need more than just MCT. Practice, mechanics, etc., etc......

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We do both. :) 4 years ago B did only FLL, 3 years ago he did only MCT, 2 years ago he did both concurrently, last year he did nothing, this year he will be alternating (a few weeks with one, then a few weeks with the other, though we are having a very long year to make up for our very short year last year).

 

Bottom line: They are both GREAT programs on their own, and I think they work wonderfully together (but only for those who WANT to, certainly not necessary). The way I see it, my kid isn't complaining and he's learning to write. It's a win/win! :D

Edited by Colleen in SEVA
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I am going to print off the WWS & ALL samples and start those with my girls. I am also going to get MCT. I don't think we will end up doing both, but I want to give each a chance to see which will work best. I really wish I had been able to get to a conference this year.......

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We are for sure using MCT. I have been considering adding ALL/WWS in term 2 but there is no guarantees that it will be available in Canada at that point. and PHP does not ship to Canada. So for now my plan only calls for MCT and WWE, but if the others become available in Canada before we are wrapping up for the year I will likely add them in.

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We are for sure using MCT. I have been considering adding ALL/WWS in term 2 but there is no guarantees that it will be available in Canada at that point. and PHP does not ship to Canada. So for now my plan only calls for MCT and WWE, but if the others become available in Canada before we are wrapping up for the year I will likely add them in.

 

Aren't the PDFs downloadable? And the books should be available from Amazon at some point.

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Aren't the PDFs downloadable? And the books should be available from Amazon at some point.

 

I like having a paper copy kwim and don't want to have to print it all myself. Once it is available on amazon I can get it, but if that is too late into our second term I won't bother.

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