Ester Maria Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 You would know by the account of national tradition, if you are Jewish. In other words, I ask my mother about it who asks her mother who asks her mother who asks her mother... ad Sinai. The "chain" gets formed - the chain of people who were telling their children that indeed once upon a time they stood on Sinai and had a deal with God. Then you question, how do we know the chain is authentic, that we are not talking about some kind of historical forgery at one time, a mass illusion or whatever? Then the answer is, can you find one example of a nation on Earth which holds, on a national level, that an event of those dimensions happened to the whole nation once and retells it, and can you prove that it did not happen? This is tricky because there ARE NO other accounts of God revealing Himself to the whole nation, rather than to a selected individual or a few. So, we are talking about a singular event in the world history, and if you can come up with something of those dimensions (and you cannot) which you can prove to not have happened (and that would be highly problematic), then the Sinai revealation did not happen either. If you cannot, it most likely did happen, or at least you do not have an argument good enough against it. There are HUGE philosophical problems with that argument, even though it sounds fairly convincing the first time you hear it as a kid. I suppose that if I the oral tradition was all I had (no texts), it would come down to accepting - or not - a variation of that proof. Personally, I am a heretic anyway, but that is the classical Jewish response to "how do you know it is true?" type of questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 I wanted to say thanks for the well reasoned and heart felt responses. i have been reading as i sit on the beach enjoying this holiday. some of this discussion has led me to new questions. like, "what is sin?" yes , i know the sunday school answer, but is not quite doing it for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I wanted to say thanks for the well reasoned and heart felt responses. i have been reading as i sit on the beach enjoying this holiday. some of this discussion has led me to new questions. like, "what is sin?" yes , i know the sunday school answer, but is not quite doing it for me. "Sin" is the judeo-christian answer for "why do bad things happen." It was as good an idea as any but today we recognize the mechanics behind natural disasters and variables that contribute to any particular choice of action. A childhood of abuse or neglect, for example, might be a powerful inspiration for any number of maladaptive behaviors. Lack of effective social skills explain why one would make a choice that negatively affects another. Health issues explain behaviors typical to autism or Tourette's. The reason the answers no longer satisfactorily explain why bad things happen is because we have more knowledge about how the world works and our participation in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I don't see what's laughable about it? Some people choose to sleep around, steal, gossip, slander, are gluttonous, etc. . I didn't know you knew me in the '80s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama2Many4 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 "Sin" is the judeo-christian answer for "why do bad things happen." It was as good an idea as any but today we recognize the mechanics behind natural disasters and variables that contribute to any particular choice of action. A childhood of abuse or neglect, for example, might be a powerful inspiration for any number of maladaptive behaviors. Lack of effective social skills explain why one would make a choice that negatively affects another. Health issues explain behaviors typical to autism or Tourette's. The reason the answers no longer satisfactorily explain why bad things happen is because we have more knowledge about how the world works and our participation in it. We do not believe sin is why bad things happen. That's a total blanket statement opinion, but that's as far as I'm going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 We do not believe sin is why bad things happen. That's a total blanket statement opinion, but that's as far as I'm going. The theology of sin is a dogma of the Christian faith. It's the reason a savior is necessary. The savior or redeemer (identified as Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, the Son of God, part of the Triune God) is the central tenet of the Christian religion. Fundamentalists and conservatives will attribute this to ours being a fallen world. Liberal believers will attribute this to some degree as the lack of following the Holy Spirit for which we suffer the natural consequences. If I'm mistaken I hope you'll at least correct my errors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I'm offended by others questioning God's existence. Offense taken by the questioning of a god of your belief has a bad history. Learning from history, I would encourage a different sentiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I think it's a universal understanding that people of faith are involved in various scientific fields. This fact neither negates one's personal faith or the science, but it does reveal a fundamental acceptance of the idea that at some point, the natural world is affected by the supernatural, which does go against scientific discovery. Seriously? :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apond Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 No one can tell you or try to convience you either way. No book will tell you either. If you truly want to know then you will have to search it out for yourself. And you will know either way if and only if you truly want to know. Good Luck!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Offense taken by the questioning of a god of your belief has a bad history. Learning from history, I would encourage a different sentiment. Yup. My god is bigger than your god or my religion is more right than yours has never turned out well. In many cases, it leads to murder, torture, discrimination, and abuse of power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Seriously? :001_huh: Yes. Seriously. Science studies nature, the natural world. Supernatural explanations, which religion attempts to explain, would be explanations outside of nature. It is to say there's *more* than what nature reveals. It is to say there is a supernatural agent involved, outside the known operations of the natural world. Well, for one thing, science can only study the natural world and there is no valid reason to invoke gods or goddesses, spirits, sprites or elves in the mechanics of nature. For another, there's no evidence to support any hypothesis that suggests the involvement of gods, goddesses, spirits, sprites or elves. To continue to assume a religious text written thousands of years ago in a literary style completely separated from ours is a reliable source of scientific knowledge to reject rational thinking, which is the foundation of the scientific method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Are you basing Spy Car's thoughts on this post? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Offense taken by the questioning of a god of your belief has a bad history. Learning from history, I would encourage a different sentiment. Absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama2Many4 Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Offense taken by the questioning of a god of your belief has a bad history. Learning from history, I would encourage a different sentiment. I'm offended *for* God, not that I would do anything evil to others about it. I've just finished reading the whole VBS thread and many of the posters here that are against God made to headway on that thread. I'm going to go read my Catholic Apologetic book and stay away from this thread. I'm not seasoned enough to take on Athiests, so it's better that I don't respond. I'll leave the pros to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 (edited) I'm offended *for* God, not that I would do anything evil to others about it. I've just finished reading the whole VBS thread and many of the posters here that are against God made to headway on that thread. I'm going to go read my Catholic Apologetic book and stay away from this thread. I'm not seasoned enough to take on Athiests, so it's better that I don't respond. I'll leave the pros to that. Made headway? I am not "against god" (although by your definition, possibly). I am amazed at the lack of respect for non-belief. I believe, but I get people who don't. Disparaging people for their spiritual beliefs (or lack of) is icky. And, ironically, goes against my understanding of the principles behind each major religion. Edited July 5, 2011 by Joanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I'm offended *for* God, not that I would do anything evil to others about it. I've just finished reading the whole VBS thread and many of the posters here that are against God made to headway on that thread. I'm going to go read my Catholic Apologetic book and stay away from this thread. I'm not seasoned enough to take on Athiests, so it's better that I don't respond. I'll leave the pros to that. I am offended when "atheist" isn't spelled correctly. I kid, I kid. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama2Many4 Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I am offended when "atheist" isn't spelled correctly. I kid, I kid. :tongue_smilie: :lol: Ya know I thought it looked funny, but it could have gone either way in my head. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I'm offended *for* God, not that I would do anything evil to others about it. I've just finished reading the whole VBS thread and many of the posters here that are against God made to headway on that thread. I'm going to go read my Catholic Apologetic book and stay away from this thread. I'm not seasoned enough to take on Athiests, so it's better that I don't respond. I'll leave the pros to that. I do not think anybody on this thread here is "against" God. They are merely questioning if God really exists at all. You cannot be against someone who does not exist for you. This is the very question asked by the OP. How would you know God exists if you did not believe the stories in the Bible/Koran or some other holy book? Humans are questioning creatures and if you believe in a God, then you would say God made them that way. To me then it seems illogical that the very God who created inquiring minds would then be offended by the inquiry - I should think in fact that it would please him greatly. The philosophical tradition that I come from actually encourages such questioning - you cannot come to know God unless you question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate CA Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I walk out my door and see the MAGNIFICENCE of His work.... I breathe deeply and feel the invigoration.... I hold my toddlers hand and feel the MIRACULOUS gift of life.... Man never created anything as elaborate as a snowflake, as complex as a puppy, and as beautiful as a flower. By the sight, sound, smell, touch, and feel of the created, I know there is a Creator.:) :iagree: This is beautiful. :001_smile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 :lol: Ya know I thought it looked funny, but it could have gone either way in my head. :tongue_smilie: I can relate! I do that with various words at times, too. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 If all I had to prove the existence of God was the Bible, I wouldn't believe in God. The awesome magnificence of this planet, they way it works so perfectly, the unbelievable experience of giving birth, the immense love I feel for my children, husband and family, the love, passion, convictions and courage of humans throughout history are reasons I believe in something more than just 'this' - for starters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Elf Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Of course, your question might be, then, "Well, how did you know to even pray in the first place?" Not sure about that. But when I had serious doubts (serious!) about God's existence and prayed to "Whoever will bother to answer me,": I got an answer. You lucky duck!! I'm so envious of people like you. My experience is opposite. I didn't get answers and in fact was pushed further away. It's the same feeling that I got when I was the last kid left after the team captains made their choices. As to the OP's question, if someone has never heard of God and/or has never been exposed to scriptures, they would likely come up with their own stories, as evidenced by thousands of years of history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I'm offended *for* God, not that I would do anything evil to others about it. Well, *I'M* offended for Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Loch Ness Monster and a wide variety of nymphs and leprechauns and a large assortment of trolls. astrid :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Source? I do not know of any genuine contemporary references to Jesus of Nazareth (which are unequivocally referring to the same person you are!) I am not trying to debate whether or not he was an historical figure - just whether there is, as you assert, contemporary accounts of him. :lurk5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate CA Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Source? I do not know of any genuine contemporary references to Jesus of Nazareth (which are unequivocally referring to the same person you are!) I am not trying to debate whether or not he was an historical figure - just whether there is, as you assert, contemporary accounts of him. http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_extrabib.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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