VBS and preaching salvation cc

[amey311]

Perhaps this message should be sent to the churches that advertise it as such.

 

I'm not sure I understand you here. Are you saying that churches should state more clearly that at Vacation BIBLE School, there will be lessons on that church's interpretation of the BIBLE?

 

If you don't want some of that good ole time religion in your summer program, you need to stick with community recreation programs. I wouldn't complain about the doctrinal education my kids received at a VBS different from my own faith path if it disagreed with mine. I would complain: if my children received information that was contradictory to the basic tenets of my home church and my children were attending VBS there OR if my children got Bible lessons at a city sponsored rec program.

 

I consider those acceptable times to complain. My kids aren't going to either, though. The former because we don't attend VBS (or church). The latter because I'm not dealing with an outside rec program in Phoenix in the summer. It's supposed to be at least 116F today. Ugh.

[Plucky]

Did you know that there is Vacation Pagan School in some places? Fascinating, of course I won't be sending my kids.

[WishboneDawn]

Let me say this as gently as I can. So think Faith in a quiet, patient voice with a loving expression on her face softly saying, "VBS should not be used for entertainment, summer fun, babysitting, and socializing."

 

VBS at any church anywhere on planet earth is normally an attempt to spend a week infusing children with a basic set of doctrinal beliefs that the particular church going to the expense and organization of said event subscribes to. No one should get upset about what their children are being taught at a church they don't attend because they do not believe what that church believes or practices. Reserve VBS for your own church so that confusing messages do not occur.

 

I think because VBS's look so glamorous and glitzy these days that it has become, to many and I am NOT implying that the OP feels this way, like sending your kid to the community pool...good, clean, fun. But, as much fun as may be instilled in the program in order to attract children to it, it is still Vacation Bible School. Which means, during their vacation from regular school we will host a week of intensive Bible school and that in turn means, schooling you in what we believe the Bible does or does not say. Canned programs still have an underlying theology attached to them.

 

Again, OP, I am not saying anything about your particular intent just that I'm seeing an epidemic (not just this board, but in life in general) of parents who don't attend church x sending their children to spend two or three hours each day for a week to church x for VBS and then being whomping mad (including irate phone calls to pastors offices) about the fact that it wasn't just crafts, snacks, and fun and they don't like what their children are learning. Hmmmmmmm.... consumer beware! It is about the Bible, of which there are gazillions of interpretations, and therefore, the content will be about that particular church's interpretation of the Bible. The church shouldn't have to apologize for that and the consumer should not be shocked.

 

We just need to be vigilant. Dh and I don't believe in the "sinner's prayer" as some sort of magic ticket to salvation. So, our children are not allowed to attend VBS at a particular area church. As one mom put it to me, my 14 year old boy who loves Jesus with his whole heart is still going to hell, according to her, because he can't actually believe without saying "The sinner's prayer" with the exact words their pastor teaches them to use. Hmmmmm.....really????? Apparently, it is what they refer to as a false conversion....Hmmmm.... they teach about that too in their VBS. So, since we don't subscribe to that belief, you can bet our kids aren't going there. Actually, come to think of it, due to major problems we have with many churches, our children have only attended Bible School twice during their grammar stages and that was because dh and I actually like the programs that year and volunteered to help with the drama. So, we kept our guys with us as prop masters.

 

Op, have a very sincere talk with your child about what you believe and why you believe it. Reiterate it, live it. She'll be okay, but from here on out consider VBS to be a lot like buying a car, do your research first.

 

Peace and blessings,

Faith

 

:iagree: Great post.

[WishboneDawn]

No, I think that any church that differs from your own has the potential to tell you/your children something you don't believe.

 

I'm agnostic. It honestly confuses me that parents would send their children to a church school of a different denomination than their own and then act angry or confused that this church told their children things that differed from their own theology.

 

Yup. There's a popular Baptist VBS near me that a few of my daughter's (Catholic!) friends go to. They have a great time but my kids won't be going. It sounds like a fun camp and a fantastic church but I fully expect that it has a lot of theology and beliefs presented that I (the Anglican) and my husband (the agnostic) would have an issue with, especially where we wouldn't be present ourselves. No biggie.

[albeto]

*sigh* I never meant to deceive or mislead anyone.

 

This is the nature of faith. When belief is mistaken for fact or truth or knowledge, there is confusion. The idea that many responding posts thought it would be obvious to anyone sending their child to vbs to expect an experience like this shows how prevalent this kind of methodology is in American Christian culture. The idea that many responding were shocked on your behalf shows how prevalent the idea is that there is no excuse for this methodology. I can't imagine how anyone would honestly think this question was meant to deceive. If anything, it reveals the differences found in the same theological desire to convert the nonbeliever - there's a spiritual war that takes no prisoners v. the Holy Spirit works gently in its own way. Each person assumes their beliefs are relatively universal and ought to be understood and accepted by others as such. To suggest you "planted" this question for the purpose of deception is astonishingly ironic given the defense offered for deceiving children for the Kingdom of God.

[Cheryl in NM]

This is the nature of faith. When belief is mistaken for fact or truth or knowledge, there is confusion. The idea that many responding posts thought it would be obvious to anyone sending their child to vbs to expect an experience like this shows how prevalent this kind of methodology is in American Christian culture. The idea that many responding were shocked on your behalf shows how prevalent the idea is that there is no excuse for this methodology. I can't imagine how anyone would honestly think this question was meant to deceive. If anything, it reveals the differences found in the same theological desire to convert the nonbeliever - there's a spiritual war that takes no prisoners v. the Holy Spirit works gently in its own way. Each person assumes their beliefs are relatively universal and ought to be understood and accepted by others as such. To suggest you "planted" this question for the purpose of deception is astonishingly ironic given the defense offered for deceiving children for the Kingdom of God.

Again you are taking things out of context. I posted that at first she (the OP) appeared to have been surprised by what her children learned but later admitted that she sat there listening to what they were learning. That is the misleading she is talking about. You are just twisting words to continue to post your viewpoints, but it is not contextual with the post you quoted. I find it helpful to read the whole post along with the quoted post, sometimes going back to the quoted post in it's entirety, to make sure I'm responding to a post in context.

[Sahamamama]

I would expect that at our church...it isn't "drilled" but lovingly shared. It's the gospel. And, our church is very open about the fact that VBS is a huge witnessing opportunity! Our church members invite friends, family, etc...and the very reason we have these things is to share the gospel. At our VBS this year, there were almost 500 children and 11 salvations...

 

I think if I were going to take my children to VBS at a church that was not our own, I would want to know what was being taught...but if, for instance, I knew they were using the Lifeway VBS package - this year, the Big Apple, I would know that salvation was the goal...

 

I guess part of me is surprised that people take their children to VBS and DON'T expect this?! I guess it is just a different denomination thing...but that just shows how common it is here, especially where we are in the Bible Belt.

 

:iagree:Yes, this exactly. I don't understand the expectation that a VBS will be about anything else. :confused:

[JudyJudyJudy]

I'm not sure I understand you here. Are you saying that churches should state more clearly that at Vacation BIBLE School, there will be lessons on that church's interpretation of the BIBLE?

 

If you don't want some of that good ole time religion in your summer program, you need to stick with community recreation programs. I wouldn't complain about the doctrinal education my kids received at a VBS different from my own faith path if it disagreed with mine. I would complain: if my children received information that was contradictory to the basic tenets of my home church and my children were attending VBS there OR if my children got Bible lessons at a city sponsored rec program.

 

I consider those acceptable times to complain. My kids aren't going to either, though. The former because we don't attend VBS (or church). The latter because I'm not dealing with an outside rec program in Phoenix in the summer. It's supposed to be at least 116F today. Ugh.

I'm saying that many churches, in their advertising and promotion of VBS, emphasize the fun to make kids want to attend, and they conveniently leave out the part where they'll be pressuring the kids to get "saved." Many parents who don't attend church themselves but don't have a problem with their kids singing Jesus/God songs, learning some basic Bible scriptures, reading some children's Bible stories, and having a lot of fun with arts and crafts are deceived into believing that the kids will have fun and only learn the good, "fun" things about God; they have no idea that their kids will face such pressure.

[amey311]

:iagree:Yes, this exactly. I don't understand the expectation that a VBS will be about anything else. :confused:

 

I think this (well, and all the other posts in this thread) are excellent example of the cognitive dissonance that someone mentioned.

 

Many people expect that VBS will be "day camp with a side of Bible." Playing games, doing small crafts (I remember assembling a popsicle stick & abc pasta creation of John 3:16 somewhere as a child, other people have mentioned the scores of "fun foam" based things - I would think a quick look at the faith section of the Oriental Trading Company catalog might provide some good examples), singing kids songs like "Father Abraham had 7 sons" with maybe some of the gentle, friendly Bible verses and a prayer along the lines of "God, help us be good and keep us safe."

 

Other people expect "sinner's prayers" and children being reborn or accepting Jesus as your savior with a goal of bringing more children to Christ. I don't have good examples for that kind of VBS because it's not an experience I had growing up.

 

People who expect "conversion" type VBS might be annoyed at the perceived "Jesus lite" their children would get at that first VBS. And, well, we've seen what happens in the reverse.

[Jenny in GA]

I'm saying that many churches, in their advertising and promotion of VBS, emphasize the fun to make kids want to attend, and they conveniently leave out the part where they'll be pressuring the kids to get "saved." Many parents who don't attend church themselves but don't have a problem with their kids singing Jesus/God songs, learning some basic Bible scriptures, reading some children's Bible stories, and having a lot of fun with arts and crafts are deceived into believing that the kids will have fun and only learn the good, "fun" things about God; they have no idea that their kids will face such pressure.

 

 

:iagree:

[Sputterduck]

Actually Jehovah's Witnesses do believe in hell. They just believe that hell is the grave. With JWs there are three options: to go to heaven (only 144,000 will do this), to live on a perfect earth, or to stay in your "grave" forever. The first two options—mainly the middle one—are the incentive for people who are creeped out by being dead forever and just rotting away. Oh, and let's not forget the fear tactics associated with Armageddon that JWs push.

 

You know what I meant Judy. :tongue_smilie: JWs aren't looking for salvation as a way to avoid eternal fiery torment. It's nothingness or eternal life. To me that's more of a positive incentive than a negative one. But really, even in mainstream Christianity if someone is with God only to avoid Hell, that doesn't save them. I do know that there are fire and brimstone preachers, but I haven't really seen anyone think they are effective. My current pastor used to be one and it drove his daughter away from Christianity for 40 years. She's recently back and he's soooo sorry. :(

[Jean in Newcastle]

No, I think that any church that differs from your own has the potential to tell you/your children something you don't believe.

 

I'm agnostic. It honestly confuses me that parents would send their children to a church school of a different denomination than their own and then act angry or confused that this church told their children things that differed from their own theology.

 

In that case, we are in agreement:)

[JudyJudyJudy]

You know what I meant Judy. :tongue_smilie: JWs aren't looking for salvation as a way to avoid eternal fiery torment. It's nothingness or eternal life. To me that's more of a positive incentive than a negative one. But really, even in mainstream Christianity if someone is with God only to avoid Hell, that doesn't save them. I do know that there are fire and brimstone preachers, but I haven't really seen anyone think they are effective. My current pastor used to be one and it drove his daughter away from Christianity for 40 years. She's recently back and he's soooo sorry. :(

Yeah, I told someone recently that I had a lot in common with Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

She knows that I'm an atheist, so she incredulously asked, "Really? What?"

 

I said, "Well, they think I'll just rot in the ground after I die, and I believe the same thing."

[amey311]

I said, "Well, they think I'll just rot in the ground after I die, and I believe the same thing."

 

In case you want to benefit society, you can donate your body to the Body Farm in Tennessee (and you can be an organ donor first). I really like all that CSI stuff, so this is an interesting idea.

 

/derail.

[JudyJudyJudy]

In case you want to benefit society, you can donate your body to the Body Farm in Tennessee (and you can be an organ donor first). I really like all that CSI stuff, so this is an interesting idea.

 

/derail.

Thanks! I'm definitely an organ donor, and I'm not opposed to donating my body to science.

[sassyscrapperinid]

This is the nature of faith. When belief is mistaken for fact or truth or knowledge, there is confusion. The idea that many responding posts thought it would be obvious to anyone sending their child to vbs to expect an experience like this shows how prevalent this kind of methodology is in American Christian culture. The idea that many responding were shocked on your behalf shows how prevalent the idea is that there is no excuse for this methodology. I can't imagine how anyone would honestly think this question was meant to deceive. If anything, it reveals the differences found in the same theological desire to convert the nonbeliever - there's a spiritual war that takes no prisoners v. the Holy Spirit works gently in its own way. Each person assumes their beliefs are relatively universal and ought to be understood and accepted by others as such. To suggest you "planted" this question for the purpose of deception is astonishingly ironic given the defense offered for deceiving children for the Kingdom of God.

 

:iagree: Im not sure why someone would think that the OP did it intentionally or maliciously. But Im sure someone will correct me. LOL

[sassyscrapperinid]

Yeah, I told someone recently that I had a lot in common with Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

She knows that I'm an atheist, so she incredulously asked, "Really? What?"

 

I said, "Well, they think I'll just rot in the ground after I die, and I believe the same thing."

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

My middle told me she accepted Christ lots of times, she thinks, because she was never sure she had done it right. Also at about age four, she was scared of having Jesus in her heart because she understood it literally like I think some children do. I think salvation messages are better left for at least six year olds and up. Does it mean youngers can't become Christians? No, but many probably don't really get it and youngsters at that age are too easily manipulated.

 

 

 

I'm so glad that I'm Catholic; I can't imagine having my kids be scared they hadn't accepted Jesus right. I'm glad they are learning that accepting Jesus and repenting is a lifelong process to be done frequently to keep Jesus increasing ever so much more in our lives and letting go of our own will. We did Pandamania at our Catholic parish and there obviously was not of what the OP described, because of differences in salvation theology. (link is to scripturecatholic.com section on baptism.)

I actually was wishing that I had invited our neighbors to come with us. They never go to church, and I think it would have been a great experience for her to hear about how God made her, loves her, listens to her, watches over her, etc.... The bible adventure on day 4 was beautifully done to the point that I teared up. Why? Because God is always calling me to go deeper.

 

 

Philippians 2:12-13 "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."

 

to the athiest poster: Catholic theology teaches that babies are born deprived of grace not depraved....you might find the former more acceptable to you if you ever considered a Christian church

[cin]

Did you know that there is Vacation Pagan School in some places? Fascinating, of course I won't be sending my kids.

 

I would LOVE to attend that, as an adult, to observe and see what they teach. I would NOT send my kids there, because it is not what I am teaching them.

[albeto]

to the athiest poster: Catholic theology teaches that babies are born deprived of grace not depraved....you might find the former more acceptable to you if you ever considered a Christian church

 

Thank you for your kind words. :)

 

Ftr, I was baptized and received into the Roman Catholic Church on the Mass of the Easter Vigil twelve years ago. I recall the event very fondly. However, depraved or deprived, the idea is the same: there is a potential to human growth that is impossible to achieve without God. God alone is full of potential (omnipotent), that is, lacking nothing of his essence, his identity is realized in full. Humanity does not have this option apart from God who, through Christ, devised a way to obtain this (grace through faith and works, or for our protestant friends, grace through faith alone).

 

For this reason alone I would object to the message of vbs (which is why I don't support vbs or suggest it for my kids). The underhanded way in which the OP's kids were introduced to this message, otoh, is, in my opinion, ruthless and maniacal and we have every reason to oppose it and help her see it for what it is - a scare tactic devised to appease the fear and anxiety of the adults of that church community. She trusted a vbs to be developmentally appropriate wrt teaching children of matters of the faith and was blindsided to find the reality of the program. Her own religious training was successful enough that if the community here overwhelmingly suggested that was normal, she might very well have thought it was just her overreacting. It seems to me she was still just barely on the fence but willing to take into consideration all information and ideas. I'd argue those ideas that inspire vbs in general are detrimental, but for the purpose of the thread, I think her gut-reaction to feel deceived was spot-on. A mamma bear knows when her babies are in danger, even if she's not quite sure how.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

Thank you for your kind words. :)

 

Ftr, I was baptized and received into the Roman Catholic Church on the Mass of the Easter Vigil twelve years ago. I recall the event very fondly. However, depraved or deprived, the idea is the same: there is a potential to human growth that is impossible to achieve without God. God alone is full of potential (omnipotent), that is, lacking nothing of his essence, his identity is realized in full. .

 

 

well, yes you are right. if one doesn't believe in God then that is a moot point:)

 

'My heart is restless until it rests in Thee.' St. Augustine, Bishop of Hippo

[Mosaicmind]

Repenting is not a lifelong process. Jesus came to die for our sins ONE time for ALL of our sins, not just the present ones. So when we receive him and ask for forgiveness he is forgiving ALL; past, present and future sins. So many people are so led astray in believing that we have to constantly ask for forgiveness, when we don't. It's just not necessary. It's like nailing him to the cross over and over again if you believe that your sins aren't not all forgiven. I feel sorry for the many people who live a life that isn't full of his grace and mercy. I have many friends who are living in a life of being scared because they haven't asked for forgiveness for something. Jesus wants us to be free from all of that, we need to be walking in the freedom that he died for on the cross and not a life that inhibits us from taking Him in fully. It's so sad.

[Little Nyssa]

I would expect that at VBS the kids would learn about sin/repentance/forgiveness and that we are called to believe and to respond to God's love.

But I would not want the kids to feel pressured at all by the staff or the other kids to respond, immediately, in a certain way. That would be really unhealthy.

But I think you would be able to tell by the community, beforehand, which kind of people they are and what you could expect.

[milovany]

Repenting is not a lifelong process. Jesus came to die for our sins ONE time for ALL of our sins, not just the present ones. So when we receive him and ask for forgiveness he is forgiving ALL; past, present and future sins. So many people are so led astray in believing that we have to constantly ask for forgiveness, when we don't. It's just not necessary. It's like nailing him to the cross over and over again if you believe that your sins aren't not all forgiven. I feel sorry for the many people who live a life that isn't full of his grace and mercy. I have many friends who are living in a life of being scared because they haven't asked for forgiveness for something. Jesus wants us to be free from all of that, we need to be walking in the freedom that he died for on the cross and not a life that inhibits us from taking Him in fully. It's so sad.

 

Forgiveness is when my husband ticks me off and I yell at him, going to him and apologizing and having that sin not held against me. Repentance is me not doing that again (or trying hard not to do that again, and learning not to do that again). Repentance is the turning from my sin. They're different. Yes, we receive forgiveness from God, but our repentance in Christ is lifelong. We continually have to change ("turn") from our sinful ways. I was saved, I'm being saved, I will be saved. This idea of "once for all" referring to a moment in time "salvation" is very new in the history of the church. Salvation (and we're probably defining terms differently; for us, Orthodox, it means communion with Christ) is a lifelong process. "Ye who endure to the end will be saved." It's not the end yet. ;) I have to keep enduring.

[Audrey]

I'm not sure why you wouldn't have expected this. It is a vacation BIBLE school. Surely you didn't think they wouldn't apply the BIBLE in the lessons of the school.

 

If you didn't want your children to be indoctrinated in biblical teachings, why would you send them to a BIBLE school?? :confused: :confused: Quite honestly, I would expect no less from a VBS. They are there to collect children into their denomination -- "saving" them, for whatever purpose.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Audrey

[3peasinWa]

I haven't read all 18 pages...but we just got done with VBS. It was NOT like what you described. There was no prayer to accept Christ. We had a bible story, a mission story, and sang songs, did crafts. Sure, in the bible study we learned about the prodigal son, Jesus the Good shepard who went to look for the 1 sheep & left the 99...and how important even one is important to God.

 

I'd find a different church next time. My views as a Christian have changed in regards to presenting kids to Jesus. I don't of course mind, my child being taught about sin, holiness, salvation, heaven, etc. But I don't want the salvation prayer shoved down his throat. Not every Christian believes that a young child absolutely needs to say an "acceptance prayer" - so find a church that fits your own theology on that matter.

[3peasinWa]

We don't do VBS and this is one of the big reasons why. The whole idea of child-evangelism doesn't seem quite biblical to me and I think in many cases it ends up doing more harm than good. I do believe that the only way to heaven is through our Saviour, Jesus Christ. But I also believe that children are innocent and that in God's time he will reveal this truth to them. Until then, I think it is better to just do a systematic teaching of the word of God and let Him speak to them through His word without over-emphasizing the need for salvation at a too-young age.

 

I was "saved" at a church camp when I was 8? 9? Nothing changed in my life and it brought much confusion in my later years. When I was 20 I gave my heart and life to the Lord again...this time for real and with a thorough understanding of what it all meant.

 

A quote from a book I once read (sorry I can't give credit because I don't remember)

 

Rather than getting their children to pray "the sinner's prayer" or enticing them into a superficial response, parents must faithfully, patiently, and thoroughly teach them the gospel and diligently pray for their salvation, always bearing in mind that God is the One who save. There is no need to pressure or coerce a confession from the mouth of a child, for genuince repentance will bring forth its own confession as the Lord opens the heart in response to the gospel. And as time goes by, it in never right to reinforce to the child that a childhood prayer is evidence of salvation.

 

 

That being said, my oldest gave her life to Jesus at age 9. No one was pushing her....just a regular Sunday morning service - no appeals, no altar call. For her, it was the right time. And it has been beautiful watching her relationship with the Lord grow. But I would not have liked for someone to by trying to get her saved before then.

 

Off my soap box now. :D

 

 

 

 

 

:001_wub:

[Melissa in Australia]

Repenting is not a lifelong process. Jesus came to die for our sins ONE time for ALL of our sins, not just the present ones. So when we receive him and ask for forgiveness he is forgiving ALL; past, present and future sins. So many people are so led astray in believing that we have to constantly ask for forgiveness, when we don't. It's just not necessary. It's like nailing him to the cross over and over again if you believe that your sins aren't not all forgiven. I feel sorry for the many people who live a life that isn't full of his grace and mercy. I have many friends who are living in a life of being scared because they haven't asked for forgiveness for something. Jesus wants us to be free from all of that, we need to be walking in the freedom that he died for on the cross and not a life that inhibits us from taking Him in fully. It's so sad.

Now that is a handy belief. Then you could just do whatever you wanted, because you get auto forgiveness.

[matchpenalty_2]

Well, the Bible says you must believe that Christ died for your sins so that you can enter the kingdom of heaven. According to the Bible it is the only way.

 

That said, the concept can be very scary to young children. I would consider it okay for 10 year olds and up. But for littles, I think the parents should be explaining this.

 

I think your children were told the truth, but that they were too young for the truth to be presented that way.

 

VBS at our church focuses on God's love for us and how to show God's love to others.

 

This is why I've been careful about where I let ds attend religious activities. I always read through the church website to see what they teach. If I'm not comfortable with their teachings ds doesn't go. Although, now that he's 14 I'll let him go and then we'll discuss things when he gets home.

:iagree:

 

I would also expect that children would be taught about salvation at a bible camp. If nothing else, it opens us the opportunity for the child to have a discussion about it with their parents.

[Mosaicmind]

Forgiveness is when my husband ticks me off and I yell at him, going to him and apologizing and having that sin not held against me. Repentance is me not doing that again (or trying hard not to do that again, and learning not to do that again). Repentance is the turning from my sin. They're different. Yes, we receive forgiveness from God, but our repentance in Christ is lifelong. We continually have to change ("turn") from our sinful ways. I was saved, I'm being saved, I will be saved. This idea of "once for all" referring to a moment in time "salvation" is very new in the history of the church. Salvation (and we're probably defining terms differently; for us, Orthodox, it means communion with Christ) is a lifelong process. "Ye who endure to the end will be saved." It's not the end yet. ;) I have to keep enduring.

 

You are right they are two different things, but I wanted to make a point that we don't need to continually ask for forgiveness each and every day for what we have done because it's already been forgiven. I am right there with you in regards to repentance. And if we have truly accepted Christ then we will want to do what's right in His eyes and turn from our ways each and every day. I think we are on the same page.

[Mosaicmind]

Now that is a handy belief. Then you could just do whatever you wanted, because you get auto forgiveness.

 

 

I agree that repentance is lifelong but not forgiveness. IF you truly accepted Christ you wouldn't keep going around doing the same things over and over again that grieve his heart. So, no it's not handy and I don't believe that those people who pray and ask Him into their hearts and then go out and do the same darn things over and over really accepted him in the first place. You don't just go out and do whatever you want and if you think that than I feel sorry for you.

[5kidsforME]

I agree that repentance is lifelong but not forgiveness. IF you truly accepted Christ you wouldn't keep going around doing the same things over and over again that grieve his heart. So, no it's not handy and I don't believe that those people who pray and ask Him into their hearts and then go out and do the same darn things over and over really accepted him in the first place. You don't just go out and do whatever you want and if you think that than I feel sorry for you.

 

I disagree with this, completely. We still need to ask for forgiveness. Period.

 

Are you saying you have never committed the same sin twice? Never have snapped at your children more than once? Never said something to your husband out of line more than once? Never had impure, sinful thoughts more than once?

[5kidsforME]

I disagree with this, completely. We still need to ask for forgiveness. Period.

 

Are you saying you have never committed the same sin twice? Never have snapped at your children more than once? Never said something to your husband out of line more than once? Never had impure, sinful thoughts more than once?

 

I want to be clear, we should never sin with the thought in mind, "Hey I'm going to sin because I can always just ask for forgiveness after I'm done".

[Wheres Toto]

I guess around here a lot of churches do what people would call VBS-lite. No heavy sermons, no pushing salvation, no pushing kids to participate in any ceremonies. It's pretty much crafts, songs, learning common Bible stories, some prayers (Lord's Prayer). Of course, the ones I'm familiar with are at United Methodist or Catholic churches.

 

I guess this whole thread is a warning to everyone to make sure they check out exactly what the particular church VBS they are considering will be doing. There seems to be a lot of variation in expectations.

[ErinMarie123]

There is a difference between an adult brainwashing and the Holy Spirit convicting someone's heart, regardless of age. Yes - adults can be coercive and forceful and push a child to pray...and I would be the first to stand up and say that's not right.

 

But it's also true that upon hearing the Word of God, a child will recognize his need for the Savior. There is none righteous, no not one. Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. These are profound concepts but they are not complicated! The Gospel is simple enough a child can understand.

 

I don't understand why it would be shocking that a *Bible* school would teach this. It's what the Bible says, after all.

[8circles]

Forgiveness is when my husband ticks me off and I yell at him, going to him and apologizing and having that sin not held against me. Repentance is me not doing that again (or trying hard not to do that again, and learning not to do that again). Repentance is the turning from my sin. They're different. Yes, we receive forgiveness from God, but our repentance in Christ is lifelong. We continually have to change ("turn") from our sinful ways. I was saved, I'm being saved, I will be saved. This idea of "once for all" referring to a moment in time "salvation" is very new in the history of the church. Salvation (and we're probably defining terms differently; for us, Orthodox, it means communion with Christ) is a lifelong process. "Ye who endure to the end will be saved." It's not the end yet. ;) I have to keep enduring.

Totally agree.

I agree that repentance is lifelong but not forgiveness. IF you truly accepted Christ you wouldn't keep going around doing the same things over and over again that grieve his heart. So, no it's not handy and I don't believe that those people who pray and ask Him into their hearts and then go out and do the same darn things over and over really accepted him in the first place. You don't just go out and do whatever you want and if you think that than I feel sorry for you.

Totally disagree. I will never be perfect in this world. Accepting Christ doesn't make me sinless.

[Mosaicmind]

I disagree with this, completely. We still need to ask for forgiveness. Period.

 

Are you saying you have never committed the same sin twice? Never have snapped at your children more than once? Never said something to your husband out of line more than once? Never had impure, sinful thoughts more than once?

 

We need to remember that we don't need to be on our knees every single day listing our sins and asking for forgiveness for all of them. Geesh!! If we all had to do that we would never get up. Asking for forgiveness is realizing that Jesus died once and for all and rose again for ALL of our sins and we don't need to get hung up on asking forgiveness each and everyday for all of them. It's just not possible and it isn't what he wants from us. We live a life of defeat if we are living this way.

 

I am not saying that we don't go to those we offend and ask for their forgiveness. I refuse to get sucked into this mentality that I need to make a laundry list of my sins and list them out asking forgiveness for them each day. I would rather live my days glorifying the Lord by all I do and say. And if you truly have asked Jesus into your heart than turning away from your sin becomes a natural thing; you want to do it, to please Him. That's what I believe, but I do know there are people out there who do not believe this. The Lord speaks to me each and everyday and it is Him I need to please not man. I know this is what He wants from me and expects.

[5kidsforME]

We need to remember that we don't need to be on our knees every single day listing our sins and asking for forgiveness for all of them. Geesh!! If we all had to do that we would never get up. Asking for forgiveness is realizing that Jesus died once and for all and rose again for ALL of our sins and we don't need to get hung up on asking forgiveness each and everyday for all of them. It's just not possible and it isn't what he wants from us. We live a life of defeat if we are living this way.

 

I am not saying that we don't go to those we offend and ask for their forgiveness. I refuse to get sucked into this mentality that I need to make a laundry list of my sins and list them out asking forgiveness for them each day. I would rather live my days glorifying the Lord by all I do and say. And if you truly have asked Jesus into your heart than turning away from your sin becomes a natural thing; you want to do it, to please Him. That's what I believe, but I do know there are people out there who do not believe this. The Lord speaks to me each and everyday and it is Him I need to please not man. I know this is what He wants from me and expects.

 

But you never answered my questions, are you saying you have never committed the same sin twice?

[Mosaicmind]

But you never answered my questions, are you saying you have never committed the same sin twice?

 

No, I am not saying that but I would hope that you learned from that and tried to do better. If you didn't you ask the person you offended for forgiveness and go on. No, we are not perfect, we are fallen but am I going to get hung up on the fact that I sin each and everyday---NO. I do ask for forgiveness but I don't make a laundry list of my sins and present them to the Lord, that just isn't how He set things up. If I continue yelling at my kids, I ask the Lord to change my heart about this and I try to do better. If I do it again, I ask my children for forgiveness and ask the Lord to give me even more grace and show me a better way. But, he knows my heart and knows that is not what I want to do.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

You are right they are two different things, but I wanted to make a point that we don't need to continually ask for forgiveness each and every day for what we have done because it's already been forgiven. I am right there with you in regards to repentance. And if we have truly accepted Christ then we will want to do what's right in His eyes and turn from our ways each and every day. I think we are on the same page.

 

 

So you are saying you've already been forgiven for the sins you will commit next week? next month? next year? How can you separate repentance and forgiveness. They are one in the same.

 

Regarding the bolded part, which I bolded, this is what is so bothersome to me about the say this prayer and it that is all there is to it theology. Of course if we have accepted Christ we will WANT to do what is right in His eyes, but yet we will still fail. This is where I see so many people think that they must not have accepted him correctly the first time and do it again, and again, and again. At leas one other poster on this thread mentioned her child doing it 10 times. I feel for people that are under so much confusion and the guilt they must incur because they 'didn't do it right' the first time.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

There is a difference between an adult brainwashing and the Holy Spirit convicting someone's heart, regardless of age. Yes - adults can be coercive and forceful and push a child to pray...and I would be the first to stand up and say that's not right.

 

But it's also true that upon hearing the Word of God, a child will recognize his need for the Savior. There is none righteous, no not one. Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. These are profound concepts but they are not complicated! The Gospel is simple enough a child can understand.

 

I don't understand why it would be shocking that a *Bible* school would teach this. It's what the Bible says, after all.

I want to be clear that the Catholic VBS we went to did mention salvation (that God sent His only son Jesus, so that we can be saved), but it obviously doesn't have the elements of a fundamentalist VBS due to differences in salvation. It isn't just cute stories and crafts. The children did grow closer to Christ through the experience.

[mommaduck]

We need to remember that we don't need to be on our knees every single day listing our sins and asking for forgiveness for all of them. Geesh!! If we all had to do that we would never get up. Asking for forgiveness is realizing that Jesus died once and for all and rose again for ALL of our sins and we don't need to get hung up on asking forgiveness each and everyday for all of them. It's just not possible and it isn't what he wants from us. We live a life of defeat if we are living this way.

 

I am not saying that we don't go to those we offend and ask for their forgiveness. I refuse to get sucked into this mentality that I need to make a laundry list of my sins and list them out asking forgiveness for them each day. I would rather live my days glorifying the Lord by all I do and say. And if you truly have asked Jesus into your heart than turning away from your sin becomes a natural thing; you want to do it, to please Him. That's what I believe, but I do know there are people out there who do not believe this. The Lord speaks to me each and everyday and it is Him I need to please not man. I know this is what He wants from me and expects.

 

:confused:So we should ask others for forgiveness but skip asking God for forgiveness, because "we've already done that and it's taken care of"? Are you serious?! Kinda feels like God is being "used". "Sorry, God, you already did your thing; I don't really have anymore use for you." :glare:

 

I don't sit and "make a laundry list", but I do ask for forgiveness when I know I've sinned. This helps me with acknowledging what I've done. It helps to ask God to help me through what I've done and to help me do better in the future. And sometimes, I don't even list everything, but I know I've been messing it up for awhile, so it boils down to this simple prayer, "Lord Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." No laundry list, no staying on my knees all day (except maybe in my spirit), and I DO get to enjoy Grace and Mercy and go about living out the wonderful, life giving joy God has given. How dare you presume that those of us that ask for forgiveness regularly don't enjoy these things!

 

In fact, I've experienced MORE Grace and Mercy, IMHO.

[Mosaicmind]

So you are saying you've already been forgiven for the sins you will commit next week? next month? next year? How can you separate repentance and forgiveness. They are one in the same.

 

Regarding the bolded part, which I bolded, this is what is so bothersome to me about the say this prayer and it that is all there is to it theology. Of course if we have accepted Christ we will WANT to do what is right in His eyes, but yet we will still fail. This is where I see so many people think that they must not have accepted him correctly the first time and do it again, and again, and again. At leas one other poster on this thread mentioned her child doing it 10 times. I feel for people that are under so much confusion and the guilt they must incur because they 'didn't do it right' the first time.

 

Does the Bible say that He only forgives the sins you commit that day? NO!! It says he forgives ALL our sins, so yes to the bolded. Repentance is a turning away from a sin and trying not to do it again or at least not doing it purposefully. Forgiveness is giving up of resentment .

[Mosaicmind]

I am not saying that we NEVER ask for forgiveness again but we don't need to get hung up on it. I hear so many people come to us for counseling and believe that they are doomed because they didn't ask for forgiveness for something or they forgot. I do ask for forgiveness but if I missed something I don't beat myself up. I am only trying to say that if we don't do this each and everyday with each and every sin then we are still saved. Our salvation does not depend on doing this with everything. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. No, I don't want to use Him.

:confused:So we should ask others for forgiveness but skip asking God for forgiveness, because "we've already done that and it's taken care of"? Are you serious?! Kinda feels like God is being "used". "Sorry, God, you already did your thing; I don't really have anymore use for you." :glare:

 

I don't sit and "make a laundry list", but I do ask for forgiveness when I know I've sinned. This helps me with acknowledging what I've done. It helps to ask God to help me through what I've done and to help me do better in the future. And sometimes, I don't even list everything, but I know I've been messing it up for awhile, so it boils down to this simple prayer, "Lord Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." No laundry list, no staying on my knees all day (except maybe in my spirit), and I DO get to enjoy Grace and Mercy and go about living out the wonderful, life giving joy God has given. How dare you presume that those of us that ask for forgiveness regularly don't enjoy these things!

 

In fact, I've experienced MORE Grace and Mercy, IMHO.

[8circles]

][/b]We need to remember that we don't need to be on our knees every single day listing our sins and asking for forgiveness for all of them. Geesh!! If we all had to do that we would never get up. Asking for forgiveness is realizing that Jesus died once and for all and rose again for ALL of our sins and we don't need to get hung up on asking forgiveness each and everyday for all of them. It's just not possible and it isn't what he wants from us. We live a life of defeat if we are living this way.

Who here has said this?

I am not saying that we don't go to those we offend and ask for their forgiveness. I refuse to get sucked into this mentality that I need to make a laundry list of my sins and list them out asking forgiveness for them each day. I would rather live my days glorifying the Lord by all I do and say. And if you truly have asked Jesus into your heart than turning away from your sin becomes a natural thing; you want to do it' date=' to please Him.[/b'] That's what I believe, but I do know there are people out there who do not believe this. The Lord speaks to me each and everyday and it is Him I need to please not man. I know this is what He wants from me and expects.

 

This, I disagree with. I have truly asked Jesus into my heart - that's not up for debate. But I dont' always want to please him. Sometimes I commit the same sin for which I already repented, knowing exactly what I'm doing. I have to keep turning to Christ again & again - only turning once doesn't magically make me only want to do good for the rest of my life. I don't become a robot only programmed for good. I'm still a sinner.

[8circles]

:confused:So we should ask others for forgiveness but skip asking God for forgiveness, because "we've already done that and it's taken care of"? Are you serious?! Kinda feels like God is being "used". "Sorry, God, you already did your thing; I don't really have anymore use for you." :glare:

 

I don't sit and "make a laundry list", but I do ask for forgiveness when I know I've sinned. This helps me with acknowledging what I've done. It helps to ask God to help me through what I've done and to help me do better in the future. And sometimes, I don't even list everything, but I know I've been messing it up for awhile, so it boils down to this simple prayer, "Lord Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." No laundry list, no staying on my knees all day (except maybe in my spirit), and I DO get to enjoy Grace and Mercy and go about living out the wonderful, life giving joy God has given. How dare you presume that those of us that ask for forgiveness regularly don't enjoy these things!

 

In fact, I've experienced MORE Grace and Mercy, IMHO.

 

You said this better than I could have. :iagree:

[mommaduck]

I am not saying that we NEVER ask for forgiveness again but we don't need to get hung up on it. I hear so many people come to us for counseling and believe that they are doomed because they didn't ask for forgiveness for something or they forgot. I do ask for forgiveness but if I missed something I don't beat myself up. I am only trying to say that if we don't do this each and everyday with each and every sin then we are still saved. Our salvation does not depend on doing this with everything. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. No, I don't want to use Him.

 

I don't know of anyone here that is saying to "get hung up on it." Please remember that we are not your clients in need of counseling. We don't beat ourselves up over our sins, but rather have a REPENTANT heart. We SHOULD be saddened by our sins when they happen. Even though, yes, Christ died once for our sins (past, present, future), He lives outside of time while we live in it. We SHOULD be presently saddened when we've sinned. We SHOULD be repentant. We SHOULD ask for forgiveness. Doing these things LEADS to the Grace and Mercy and Joy. To be so flippant as to tell someone that they "don't need to worry about it be you already did that once" does not address the current issue they struggle with. It blows it off and, IMO, blows off God and His continuing role/relationship in our lives.

[8circles]

And if you truly have asked Jesus into your heart than turning away from your sin becomes a natural thing; you want to do it, to please Him.

 

I'm sorry, I just had to come back to this. This is just so judgemental of others salvation. How do you get to be the judge of who has truly turned to Jesus? It's so much like "if you do x then you were never saved in the first place". How does any one of us know? This is exactly the kind of judgement that we aren't to do.

[8circles]

I don't know of anyone here that is saying to "get hung up on it." Please remember that we are not your clients in need of counseling. We don't beat ourselves up over our sins, but rather have a REPENTANT heart. We SHOULD be saddened by our sins when they happen. Even though, yes, Christ died once for our sins (past, present, future), He lives outside of time while we live in it. We SHOULD be presently saddened when we've sinned. We SHOULD be repentant. We SHOULD ask for forgiveness. Doing these things LEADS to the Grace and Mercy and Joy. To be so flippant as to tell someone that they "don't need to worry about it be you already did that once" does not address the current issue they struggle with. It blows it off and, IMO, blows off God and His continuing role/relationship in our lives.

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

[ErinMarie123]

I think people intermingle salvation & sanctification, when they're really two different things.

 

Salvation is something that happens once - when someone realizes they're a sinner, and for that are separated from God, and there's only one way to reconcile that separation - Christ. The moment you depend on Christ alone to pay your penalty of sin you are saved.

 

This doesn't mean someone instantly becomes a perfect, Christ-like person. Sanctification is a process - the process of becoming more like Christ. We are still human, we still fail. But as we say 'yes' to God and 'no' to the flesh and this becomes our habit of life we become more Christ-like. We will still sin, we will still need to ask the Lord to forgive us, but he is faithful & just to forgive our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This does not mean we lose our salvation...it just means we lose fellowship & have to make it right.

 

So salvation = a one-time decision. Santification = the Christian walk, or the process of becoming Christ-like. They're not the same thing.