Diana in OR Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 I just finished reading Crunchy Cons. I have to say I identify with much of the sentiment of the book. One idea that really struck me was the idea of neighborhood, as opposed to developments with cookie-cutter houses whereby residents retreat inside their homes via the garage and are never seen and the neighbors don't know each other. I've always been intrigued by the idea of neighborhood, and until recently pretty much figured it no longer existed in real-life. What I've found, though, through my volunteer activities is that the older, established neighborhoods, tend to have residents who take more pride in their neighborhood, work hard to keep it livable, and generally are more amiable to their neighbors. I live in a "cookie-cutter" development and have seen the opposite in my neighborhood. I'm not sure why this is, but I'd love to hear some ideas on why you think this is true. When we bought our first home, it was in a huge subdivision, of mostly lower-priced homes. So, I was surprised to find that most families were two income. Neighbors rarely spoke to each other. Then we moved to a new home very nearby. I figured there would surely be more of a sense of permancy, as it never occured to me that a new 2000-3000 sf home would be a "starter home". My dh works very hard so we can live where we do. I'm seeing young couples buying homes bigger and nicer than ours, living in them for a year or two and then turning them into rentals. In the older neighborhoods, people are buying homes to rehab them and live in them. In general, the residents in the older neighborhoods spend more time out and about their neighborhoods, they walk or ride their bikes places, they recycle more, are more interested in taking care of the environment and they tend to be more involved in neighborhood activities and have more interest in their local schools. (I realize these are generalizations, but I'm looking at the big picture, not individuals who don't fit what I've described.) So what's up with that? We purposely chose our home for it's location, and b/c dh has severe back problems, an older home isn't a good choice for us b/c of the maintenance required. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klmama Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 I've seen what you've seen. We live in an older area, and everyone is very involved in the neighborhood. Some of our neighbors have been here for 40 years, so they've invested a lot into the area. Even when they've reached an income to afford a newer, bigger place, they've just rennovated what they have. I can think of 3 neighbors who have spent at least $150,000 each to rennovate or add on to their houses in the past five years rather than move into someplace new. They all love yard work, they all enjoy trees, flowers, prairies, and animals, and they get it all here! In a newer place, there are no trees, no wild animals, no natural beauty. Just pretty houses. There's nothing outside to draw people out into the neighborhood so that they can connect. We know our neighbors because they do yardwork and we talk over the backyard fences or in their front yards as we go for a walk. No yard work = no connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melinda in VT Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 There is no reason to walk in the newer subdivisions I've seen. There is no where to go. If you are lucky, you can walk to a school. If you are really lucky, the developer has been forced to put in a park. Of course, it might not have any trees that are taller than you . . . We like neighborhoods where we can walk to shopping, dining, parks or other green space, libraries, schools, etc. We have only found this in older, more densely populated neighborhoods. (Now, I did live on a cul-de-sac in a new subdivision with great neighbors. The women enjoyed hanging out while the kids played. But it was also a *very* religiously homogeneous street.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jami Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 A few years ago I read quite a bit about death of community and how the physical changes in homes themselves and in urban/suburban design have shaped how we interact with one another from our homes. Here are some of the titles I read. The first I read in a graduate history class on American history, I'm sure I've thought about it more than than many other books I read that year! Jackson argues that the architectural designs of homes themselves such as the loss of a front porch and parlor which invited people to meet together and the moving of the family to the back of the house and back yard where they could huddle together around their television. After reading the second book by two architects very prominent in the "New Urbanism" movement, I was hopeful that some of these things could be remedied with better neighborhood design and some changes to the homes that would encourage community. But I live very near one such neighborhood and the people have perhaps changed too much to be saved by front porches and sidewalks. They all still work all week and retreat into their homes at night, the times we've driven through it I rarely see people out walking and hanging out. And thanks to the HUGE HOA costs and the type of homeowner who can afford a "cool" neighborhood like this, there isn't the kind of diversity in age and income you'd want in a true community. So I'm not sure what the true answer is anymore. It's more than just the structural landscape and architecture now, but it doesn't help to have all housing miles from workplaces leaving people too fried after a long commute to do anything but retreat to the back of the house to the TV. I live in an "older" neighborhood. But it's still post-WWII and is lacking some of the important things to make a friendly feeling neighborhood...sidewalks for example. :glare: And we are by far one of the youngest families on our street. Fun to think about though...I like to think people will get tired of mondo-development sprawl and want real neighborhoods again and not "neighborhoods". Jami http://www.amazon.com/Crabgrass-Frontier-Suburbanization-United-States/dp/0195049837/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211234662&sr=8-2 Crabgrass Frontier by Kenneth Jackson http://www.amazon.com/Suburban-Nation-Sprawl-Decline-American/dp/0865476063/ref=pd_sim_b_title_1 Suburban Nation http://www.amazon.com/Geography-Nowhere-Americas-Man-Made-Landscape/dp/0671888250/ref=pd_sim_b_title_1 Geography of Nowhere (and others) by James Howard Kunstler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana in OR Posted May 19, 2008 Author Share Posted May 19, 2008 I've seen what you've seen. We live in an older area, and everyone is very involved in the neighborhood. Some of our neighbors have been here for 40 years, so they've invested a lot into the area. Even when they've reached an income to afford a newer, bigger place, they've just rennovated what they have. I can think of 3 neighbors who have spent at least $150,000 each to rennovate or add on to their houses in the past five years rather than move into someplace new. They all love yard work, they all enjoy trees, flowers, prairies, and animals, and they get it all here! In a newer place, there are no trees, no wild animals, no natural beauty. Just pretty houses. There's nothing outside to draw people out into the neighborhood so that they can connect. We know our neighbors because they do yardwork and we talk over the backyard fences or in their front yards as we go for a walk. No yard work = no connection. In my experience, it isn't necessarily age related. Even the younger families who move into the older neighborhoods are more connected with their community. I live in a small city, which means the "suburbs" are at most a 15 minute drive to city center. Yard size is hit or miss in any neighborhood. We happen to have a small yard, but I love it. I can do yard work and actually keep up with it so it looks nice most of the time. In our yard we've planted fruit trees, raspberries, kiwis, and lots of other flowery and fruity things.:) We also have lots of birds. You're right, though, I don't see many neighbors working in their yards, except for mowing, which doesn't make for neighborly conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jami Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 There is no reason to walk in the newer subdivisions I've seen. There is no where to go. If you are lucky, you can walk to a school. If you are really lucky, the developer has been forced to put in a park. Of course, it might not have any trees that are taller than you . . . We like neighborhoods where we can walk to shopping, dining, parks or other green space, libraries, schools, etc. We have only found this in older, more densely populated neighborhoods. (Now, I did live on a cul-de-sac in a new subdivision with great neighbors. The women enjoyed hanging out while the kids played. But it was also a *very* religiously homogeneous street.) Very, very true, Melinda. Walkable neighborhoods and smaller non-chain stores are by and large a thing of the past I fear. Even if I wanted to walk to say, Walgreens (no chance at a local pharmacy), I have to walk along the edge of two busy streets without benefit of shade from trees or a sidewalk to get there. Not encouraging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana in OR Posted May 19, 2008 Author Share Posted May 19, 2008 There is no reason to walk in the newer subdivisions I've seen. There is no where to go. If you are lucky, you can walk to a school. If you are really lucky, the developer has been forced to put in a park. Of course, it might not have any trees that are taller than you . . . We like neighborhoods where we can walk to shopping, dining, parks or other green space, libraries, schools, etc. We have only found this in older, more densely populated neighborhoods. But the burning question on my mind is WHY?? I happen to think some growth is healthy. So WHY wouldn't business want to locate in large neighborhoods? WHY wouldn't those residents patronize businesses in their neighborhood? WHY don't people want to work in their yards or plant trees or sit on their porches (we have a small front porch, and we enjoy using it on summer evenings). :confused: (Btw, our neighborhood is like you describe with no parks. There is park property at the end of my street that used to be a Christmas tree farm. I am working on getting the city to develop it. It's pretty cool, because it already has lots of large trees.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 I just started "Crunchy Cons" so I'm still dealing with the consumerism chapter. I agree. My dh and I used to live in a suburban sprawl area and watched many cookie cutter neighborhoods be built. We used to laugh because all of the houses were all one color, taupe. We have since moved to an older neighborhood several states away. I was hoping to have more of a community, but I still know only 2 neighbors. Okay, a third came to introduce himself, only because he wanted us to take down a tree. We have literally hundreds of trees in between our houses and he got irate about one, welcome to the neighborhood (rolling eyes). Anyway back to the topic, yes I think community is totally different than it used to be. We can't walk anywhere from here and the neighborhood grocery is too overpriced to be affordable for us. In our previous town we found our "community" in the church. Here, we really have none. It's hard to reach out sometimes, because people are so busy, they don't have time to be neighborly. I also think people are more cautious than they used to be. As a little child I remember my sister and I going over to the old man next door's home and he would give us candy. My mom didn't care, but I'm not sure that I'd allow a little child that freedom today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klmama Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 In my experience, it isn't necessarily age related. Even the younger families who move into the older neighborhoods are more connected with their community. Yes, I agree. That isn't what I meant. I was just pointing out that some people have lived here since the neighborhood first started, so they have a good reason to be connected. Our youngest neighbor is in his early 20s, though, and he is as friendly and considerate as they come. I don't even think sidewalks are the issue, as we don't have them. People are just out and about, and they stop to talk with each other. Someone working in their front yard means you should stop to chat, and in the backyard you should at least wave. When everyone is raking leaves or mowing at the same time, they wave and stop to rest together, so more community gets built up. Everyone pitches in for a while to rake the old widow's yard together. Maybe, as you spend more time with your plantings, others will be encouraged to do the same, and you'll find yourself connecting more with the neighbors. And, if not, you'll still have the prettiest yard in the neighborhood! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy loves Bud Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 Well, I loved the book and agreed with most of it. But I think the neighborhood disconnectedness is not just a suburban problem, and I think you will find some really wonderful suburban communities (in the true sense of the word) if you look hard. Somehow, we have been very lucky here , in what I believe is the largest planned development in the nation. Maybe 2nd largest. Our little sub-community has 62 homes. All the houses have front porches that face out to a central park, or they back up to a wooded creek. There are no rear-entry garages, which I think is key. In our neighborhood, a huge number of people work from home. Most of the women stay home or help with their husband's home business, which is more possible because we live out in the less expensive suburbs rather than the more expensive 'hoods toward the city. Just this past weekend, we had an impromptu Chinese-order and wine-sip gathering at my house on Friday, with about 15 adults hanging about the porch and yard while the kids ran around playing flashlight tag in the park. On Sunday about 10 families spent the day at the home of one of the little three year old neighbors celebrating her birthday. No fancy party stuff, just chips, cake, beverages and friends of all ages, no gifts allowed. This is typical around here. There is a very different mentality in our spot than I find around us, and I don't know why it is. Many of the neighbors here have improved their lot in life and could be living in bigger, fancier houses. But no one wants to move. Most of us feel that this is it for us and Lord willing we will never move. When we were doing wills and all that, Bud wanted to be sure I was able to move to be close to some siblings if anything ever happened to him. Now he has revised that and wants to be sure I am able to stay here if anything happens to him, because this is our support network. It is possible in the suburbs. I tend to think that this sort of community happens due to the good luck of having the sort of people who are willing to work hard at it all land in the same place, rather than being in the right "style" of neighborhood. It's definitely the case here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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