An acceptable word to replace "rigorous"?

[Joan in GE]

Now that I've been educated by the hive more thoroughly :001_smile:, I see that there is a problem with the use of the word "rigorous" because some people are rigorously studying (with their dc) and others want to provide an education that will fulfill requirements of "rigor" for certain universities, and the two do not always overlap.

 

There is a huge range of "rigor" in different subjects and for different "children" and since I wasn't thinking of that when starting the other thread, I can see how people took offense. But that was not at all my intent.

 

ETA - I want to keep the word "rigorous" to deal with how students are studying - most vigorously for themselves, and look for a new word per below...

 

However, since people in all different situations with different students sometimes need to have a program that a college would think of as "rigorous", it seems like we need a new word to deal with this kind of study - that does not provoke hurt feelings and misunderstandings.

 

And there are people looking for materials that go beyond the average level of work and so need a way of talking about that, again without making waves.

 

The problem with "Draconian" is that it seems to apply to the measures/method rather than the studies themselves...

 

Could we find such a word?

 

The words that come to my mind seem to have the same potential for misunderstanding....

 

The types of studies that I'm thinking of typically incur more effort for the average person. While it is easy to think of AP coursework, there are individualized plans of study that are at a difficult level but not measured by AP exams, yet would be appreciated by more selective schools...

 

(All this is not meant to restart old conversations about what schools are looking for, but to find a word to describe challenging studies - uh oh, another weighty word probably - but please try to help me - and sorry Janice - I haven't read the Crazy U book yet if I am playing into that? - I still hope for a useful word in these circumstances).

 

Ever hopeful,

Joan

Edited June 26, 2011 by Joan in Geneva

[Rebecca VA]

Reading your post, I'm reminded of one of the early scenes in "The Ten Commandments," in which the narrator says the children of Israel were made to serve the Egyptians with RIGOR. The tone of the narrator's voice kind of hardened on that word and made it sound frightening.

 

To answer your question: how about "demanding?"

[Janice in NJ]

One of the things I have loved about the high school boards is that over the years we have learned to disagree but still get along. I don't want that to change.

 

One of the biggest problems I see in homeschooling high school is that while we all understand that we need to choose paths that match our kids, its hard to be completely confident in that path until we get the results we want. And let's face it, that complete confidence probably never comes. I've graduated my son. He's off to college in the fall. And I'm still not sure we made the best choices we could have. He's still a kid and he is far from perfect. I am still stuck in the place of hoping that he has what he is going to need.

 

As far as "rigorous???!!" We've worked our tails off, and I have two more coming up. The work isn't over. So I'm tired, incredibly tired, if that counts for anything. But rigorous? How would I know? I'm all alone over here in my corner. I know how exhausted I feel. But I also have an idea of what it might mean to really understand some of these subjects we are tackling. The deeper I go and the more I know, the farther my kids are from achieving the goal. So I keep doubling back and trying to drag them forward. But they don't care as much as I do about so many things.

 

So in my mind, no one in my house is going to get a rigorous education. That word means "full of rigor." Full? To the top? With no room left for more? Nope. Not here. (Sometimes the vat is so HUGE I can barely see the water sloshing around WAAAAAAYYYY down in the bottom. And the vat keeps getting bigger. Can you feel the swell of panic associated with trying to call THAT an attempt at "rigor." There are not enough minutes in a lifetime, much less an adolescence. Yikes!)

 

So I encourage my kids. I cajole. I beg. But rigor? Not here.

I expect to drag myself across the finish line with the last child. My goal? To try to list the things we accomplished and make an effort to ignore the things we missed - as there will be a LONG LIST!!!! :001_smile:

 

So yes, I vote to get rid of that word. It's loaded with a bad vibe for those of us who are all sweaty and exhausted. The more you know, the more you realize that you don't know: the vat just keeps expanding in all directions. It's a loosing game.

 

I just want to be the "good enough for this particular situation" home schooler. :001_smile: That's the IEP I hope to sign off on in the end.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[stripe]

I do think there is a desire to imply a "no pain, no gain!" mentality. Learning is a strain! I am a super mom; my kids are super smart. We train HARD. Their brains ache. They're learning more than you people, that's for sure. Caveat emptor! Ex luna sapientia! Deus me vocat! In gloria pax!

 

I think I prefer thoughtful and enthusiastic. I prefer my kids to be curious rather than exhausted. But I don't think that is a more pleasant synonym for rigorous, because I don't think that's what rigorous is supposed to mean!

 

Determination, maybe. Strength.

In virtute pertinacia.

[at the beach]

...

Edited June 28, 2011 by Violet

[Joan in GE]

Janice - it sounds like you have a problem with boundaries! I don't think there are any for knowledge as we're discovering more every day, so your boundaries never stop expanding. No wonder you are exhausted. I see that I have it easy since I just have to compare with the Swiss matu - not with the bottomless vat of all knowledge....

 

Rebecca - funny about rigor - my understanding has mostly come from the board...

 

It seems like "demanding" could have some of the same problems - where students are doing work that is very demanding for them, but might not be demanding enough to do well on an AP for example. (I'm not trying to say AP's/similar are the be and end all, just want a way of talking about preparation without a value judgement being made)...

 

Stripe - I wasn't quite sure where you are coming from so don't know how to comment....

 

Joan

[Brigid in NC]

I still like rigorous. :)

 

To me, it's relative. My application of "rigorous" means something different for every child, depending on the child's gifts and aspirations. I'm going to stick with rigorous. ;)

[Hunter's Moon]

I don't think the word "rigorous" needs to be changed. I think the mindset needs to, though.

 

What is rigorous to me may not be rigorous to another student. I struggle in Math and Science, but History and English just "click" with me. I have friends who struggle with spelling and grammar still, so obviously more English would be rigorous to them. I still struggle with basic Algebraic equations sometimes, so more Math would be rigorous to me.

 

One definition from Webster's is: very strict and demanding

 

I know that if I were to take AP Calculus right now, it would be beyond demanding. If one of my friends who is good at math took it, they would think it a breeze, or at least not struggle as much as I, if at all. So, because they wouldn't struggle, they shouldn't get the AP credit? Of course they should, they did the same amount of work and whoever made the course obviously felt it was rigorous.

 

So, sometimes I believe there needs to be a line drawn between demanding and too demanding. I would get nothing out of an AP math course but I would probably enjoy and learn from an AP English course.

 

I'm fine with the fact that I'm taking Statistics next year and not going the harder road because I would probably flounder. I take no offense to those who say LoF Statistics isn't as rigorous as whatever Calculus book they'll be using. I know where I need to draw the line.

 

I think posters just need to realize that if one poster decides to pursue what they would call a rigorous course of study, they aren't jumping on others and calling what they're doing too easy or not rigorous enough. It is what they want for themselves/their children. That is the point of homeschooling, anyways. Most on here wanted to provide the types of academics they thought would be best for their student and prepare them for college or life beyond high school.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

**Disclaimer: I know AP isn't always the most rigorous, just an example**

Edited June 26, 2011 by BeatleMania

[stripe]

Stripe - I wasn't quite sure where you are coming from so don't know how to comment....

 

Neither does anyone else on this board, so you're in good company.

[Joan in GE]

I still like rigorous. :)

 

To me, it's relative. My application of "rigorous" means something different for every child, depending on the child's gifts and aspirations. I'm going to stick with rigorous. ;)

 

Yes, though I guess it wasn't clear so now I've edited my op, I want to keep the word "rigorous" for the meaning you are using - which is all relative to the family/child, and find another for the less relative situation with AP & similar prep coursework. To prep for the Swiss matu, there is flexibility about which track the student is on, but either you pass or fail - so no relativity there, no matter how hard my child studied....(that is an example).

 

Violet maybe that answers your post too?

 

Stephanie - I'm thinking about your post but have to run...

 

Joan

Edited June 26, 2011 by Joan in Geneva

[Joan in GE]

Neither does anyone else on this board, so you're in good company.

 

So stripe - you don't post to be understood?

[stripe]

So stripe - you don't post to be understood?

That is certainly not the case. You are welcome to search for my posts on this board. I have contributed a vast number of free resources and introduced programs to members here that no one had ever heard of before.

 

Let's not make this thread about me.

 

Or, if we do, please don't blame me for having hijacked your thread.

[8filltheheart]

Joan, in the personality type thread I posted the following:

 

FWIW, I don't like the words rigorous or draconian, though I guess based on discussions on this forum that is how I would classify myself. I really expect my kids to achieve academically their best......whatever that may be. The fact that my 19 yo lives at home and is directionless and that my 22 yo is married, graduating, and is a new father reflect each of their abilities. So.....what each child achieves is completely relative. But, I do expect their personal best.

 

What it boils down to for me is that my kids are completing courses that are designed to meet their abilities w/o compromise. It has nothing to do with likes/dislikes on their part. It has nothing to do w/just interest. It is geared toward ability and expecting them to perform at that level whether they enjoy the material or not.

 

I can't think of a single word that meets my personal criteria. It is strictly academically-oriented w/individual focus.

[-M-]

I know. I know. Someone will chime in with the snob argument. I'm prepared, though. In Snobbery: The American Version, Joseph Epstein writes:

 

High standards generally — about workmanship in the creation of objects, about what is owed in friendship, about the quality of art, and much else — far from being snobbish, are required to maintain decency in life. When the people who value these things are called snobs, the word is usually being used in a purely sour-grapes way. 'Elitist,' a politically super-charged word, is almost invariably another sour-grapes word, at least when used to denigrate people who insist on a high standard... Delight in excellence is easily confused with snobbery by the ignorant.

 

Delight in excellence is easily confused with snobbery by the ignorant. Yes. Yes. That's it precisely. As one of "those people" who work to help students achieve academic excellence, I've always, well, delighted in this passage since it so neatly summarizes my early experience trying to discuss such issues as academic standards and teacher quality (and, by extension, qualifications). Slapped with the elitist label one too many times, though, I grew quiet.

 

But we continue to use excellence as our byword.

[elegantlion]

There's a thread on general forum about dance. One person in particular noted about helping children achieve by pushing them out of their comfort zones a little bit. It hit me like a ton of bricks, as I am very much a comfort zone person. I've been on a personal journey to find my courage lately.

 

I agree about keeping the word rigorous. The only other word I can think that might match it is intentional (brought up by someone in the other thread), but that's almost too subjective.

 

We all parent in different ways, we all homeschool in different ways. I see rigorous as stretching the child beyond their comfort zone just a bit. That will be different for every child.

 

I sat and watch a robin family nest in a tree right outside our kitchen window. I watched them all spring and during a storm momma decided to move her 3 young birds. I'd never seen them out of the nest before. One little speckled breasted bird flew onto our covered deck and sat on a lawn chair. His little feet gripped this iron chair through the blinding wind and rain. We were under a tornado warning, but this little robin sat there and faced the wind. After the storm momma came and got him. I'd say he got a rigorous lesson in learning to fly.

 

I don't see rigorous as a bad word, I don't bristle at its meaning. I'm not sure my son is getting a rigorous education right now. I am stretching him and hopefully one day he'll be strong enough to face the storms of life(and college!) on his own. I don't know, maybe it's simply educating with intention.

 

ETA: reading the post above, I like educating with excellence. I might adopt that for our school.

[Hunter]

I've learned that word choice is only one part of my voice. When I first went online, I was misunderstood a LOT more than I am now. I had to start using a lot of creative punctuation and actually start breaking grammar rules, to let my voice come through. I had to add lots of emoticon and bolding and caps and WHATEVER available to me to try and get my meaning across.

 

And word choices even change with who and where I am talking, if those words have recently been used in a certain way.

 

Love in what we say, and love in how we receive the posts of tired people, is what counts.

[bugs]

There's a thread on general forum about dance. One person in particular noted about helping children achieve by pushing them out of their comfort zones a little bit. It hit me like a ton of bricks, as I am very much a comfort zone person. I've been on a personal journey to find my courage lately.

 

I agree about keeping the word rigorous. The only other word I can think that might match it is intentional (brought up by someone in the other thread), but that's almost too subjective.

 

We all parent in different ways, we all homeschool in different ways. I see rigorous as stretching the child beyond their comfort zone just a bit. That will be different for every child.

 

I sat and watch a robin family nest in a tree right outside our kitchen window. I watched them all spring and during a storm momma decided to move her 3 young birds. I'd never seen them out of the nest before. One little speckled breasted bird flew onto our covered deck and sat on a lawn chair. His little feet gripped this iron chair through the blinding wind and rain. We were under a tornado warning, but this little robin sat there and faced the wind. After the storm momma came and got him. I'd say he got a rigorous lesson in learning to fly.

 

I don't see rigorous as a bad word, I don't bristle at its meaning. I'm not sure my son is getting a rigorous education right now. I am stretching him and hopefully one day he'll be strong enough to face the storms of life(and college!) on his own. I don't know, maybe it's simply educating with intention.

 

ETA: reading the post above, I like educating with excellence. I might adopt that for our school.

 

:iagree:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think there are situations where a poster could be more specific about goals or limitations. For example I probably won't benefit much from AP level Latin advice if we're still struggling with amo, amas, amat ...

 

But how are we going to get a non variable, non judgmental definition of a word like rigorous if we (general board members) can't agree on the meaning of words like homeschooler or classical?

 

Use rigorous if you think it fits, but maybe give a little more info on how you are using it and/or what you're looking for.

[Mommyfaithe]

Yes, though I guess it wasn't clear so now I've edited my op, I want to keep the word "rigorous" for the meaning you are using - which is all relative to the family/child, and find another for the less relative situation with AP & similar prep coursework. To prep for the Swiss matu, there is flexibility about which track the student is on, but either you pass or fail - so no relativity there, no matter how hard my child studied....(that is an example).

 

Violet maybe that answers your post too?

 

Stephanie - I'm thinking about your post but have to run...

 

Joan

 

Test-tastic, Tactical homeschooling, college prep? Ivy prep? Hoop hurling?

 

I sort of like " tactical homeschooling". I think that is what I end up doing sometimes instead of rigorous....especially with a kid who is totally goal oriented and my job is to prep them and get them outa here....sigh...

 

I prefer rigor.....but my kids?? Not so much....sigh.

 

Faith

[Ellie]

One of the things I have loved about the high school boards is that over the years we have learned to disagree but still get along. I don't want that to change.

 

One of the biggest problems I see in homeschooling high school is that while we all understand that we need to choose paths that match our kids, its hard to be completely confident in that path until we get the results we want. And let's face it, that complete confidence probably never comes. I've graduated my son. He's off to college in the fall. And I'm still not sure we made the best choices we could have. He's still a kid and he is far from perfect. I am still stuck in the place of hoping that he has what he is going to need.

 

As far as "rigorous???!!" We've worked our tails off, and I have two more coming up. The work isn't over. So I'm tired, incredibly tired, if that counts for anything. But rigorous? How would I know? I'm all alone over here in my corner. I know how exhausted I feel. But I also have an idea of what it might mean to really understand some of these subjects we are tackling. The deeper I go and the more I know, the farther my kids are from achieving the goal. So I keep doubling back and trying to drag them forward. But they don't care as much as I do about so many things.

 

So in my mind, no one in my house is going to get a rigorous education. That word means "full of rigor." Full? To the top? With no room left for more? Nope. Not here. (Sometimes the vat is so HUGE I can barely see the water sloshing around WAAAAAAYYYY down in the bottom. And the vat keeps getting bigger. Can you feel the swell of panic associated with trying to call THAT an attempt at "rigor." There are not enough minutes in a lifetime, much less an adolescence. Yikes!)

 

So I encourage my kids. I cajole. I beg. But rigor? Not here.

I expect to drag myself across the finish line with the last child. My goal? To try to list the things we accomplished and make an effort to ignore the things we missed - as there will be a LONG LIST!!!! :001_smile:

 

So yes, I vote to get rid of that word. It's loaded with a bad vibe for those of us who are all sweaty and exhausted. The more you know, the more you realize that you don't know: the vat just keeps expanding in all directions. It's a loosing game.

 

I just want to be the "good enough for this particular situation" home schooler. :001_smile: That's the IEP I hope to sign off on in the end.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[EKS]

Frankly, I think the word rigorous is fine, but if you want another word, perhaps challenging will do?

 

Though I have to say, that I don't use the words interchangeably. For example, my son uses Cambridge Latin through Oak Meadow. Cambridge by itself is on the easy side of the Latin choices out there. The way OM does it makes it even easier. However, my son has dyslexia, and it is challenging for him.

[Julie in MN]

Test-tastic, Tactical homeschooling, college prep? Ivy prep? Hoop hurling?

I am thinking these fun words are actually on to something!

 

Maybe what folks are wanting in the "rigor" camp is to hear from like-minded folks who really like textbooks & tests, the harder the better. So I would think maybe "textbook ed" might clarify what a poster is seeking?

 

I come from the camp where my oldest is a petroleum engineer (from a competitive school, graduating with honors, highly sought out by employers) -- however, he had a lame high school ed and lame course titles on his transcript. He did some other things that were impressive instead, and he learned how to work and to learn (some of which of course happened at home). I also myself had a lame education (public schools in the 60s-70s were NOT rigorous even in my most lax sense of the word!), yet when I decided to attend college, I managed a degree, summa cum laude, phi beta kappa, and all that. So I am way into the rigor of "learning and doing," the rigor of "developing the mind," rather than the rigor of "transcripts and textbooks."

 

I find that when I post about alternatives to textbooks, that I am considered non-rigorous and my thoughts are just not what the thread poster is seeking -- because I think it's "rigorous textbooks" that folks are truly wanting when they ask for "rigor" these days. I don't necessarily think that was true 9 years ago when I started homeschooling, but I think folks have migrated back towards textbook authors for what they perceive as "real education" these days. So I think a word like "textbook ed" that clarifies that might help?

 

Julie

[Jane in NC]

I

 

Maybe what folks are wanting in the "rigor" camp is to hear from like-minded folks who really like textbooks & tests, the harder the better. So I would think maybe "textbook ed" might clarify what a poster is seeking?

 

 

 

I find that when I post about alternatives to textbooks, that I am considered non-rigorous and my thoughts are just not what the thread poster is seeking -- because I think it's "rigorous textbooks" that folks are truly wanting when they ask for "rigor" these days. I don't necessarily think that was true 9 years ago when I started homeschooling, but I think folks have migrated back towards textbook authors for what they perceive as "real education" these days. So I think a word like "textbook ed" that clarifies that might help?

 

Julie

 

This is the first time I have heard of anyone associating textbooks with rigor, Julie. Frankly I have considered our WTM Great Books study to be rigorous. Granted, we did use Spielvogel as a history spine along with the Great Books, Time Line book, TC lectures, etc., but it was not Spielvogel that made the study rigorous. It was the Great Books themselves.

 

Further, I am of the belief that not all math text books are of the same rigor. Hence, textbook = rigorous does not hold in my definitions.

 

By the way, as I have noted elsewhere, rigor is a word that is commonly used in Mathematics so I have no objection to it.

 

Jane

[Guest]

I don't mind the word rigor, as long as people accept that there are differing tools and approaches which can be equally rigorous. The only thing I object to is the claiming of rigorous education as exclusive to one particular curriculum or educational plan?

[cathmom]

LOL - after posting yesterday about the words "rigor" and "rigorous" I began rereading the original edition of WTM, and so far I've found the word "rigorous" three times!!! :lol:

 

However, I still don't like it and won't use it. I prefer "intellectually challenging."

 

But I'm glad that we've had all this discussion, because I think it's bringing me to a new understanding. Maybe I'll be able to post about it in a few days when I've really thought it through.

[Jane in NC]

The only thing I object to is the claiming of rigorous education as exclusive to one particular curriculum or educational plan?

 

And I don't think that this is happening. So it's all good, yes?

[8filltheheart]

I don't mind the word rigor, as long as people accept that there are differing tools and approaches which can be equally rigorous. The only thing I object to is the claiming of rigorous education as exclusive to one particular curriculum or educational plan?

 

My POV is that this where the source of threads like this come from. B/c there is a distinction b/c curricula and plans It is what it is. Not every thing out there is "rigorous." But there are people who believe that what I perceive as very weak programs are their definition of "rigorous."

 

I think what actually matters is not what my definition is or what anyone else's definition is but what is appropriate for the individual student. For some students, MUS will meet the definition of rigorous and programs like AoPS are not even accessible. For other students, MUS is not going to meet their needs and AoPS is the correct path.

 

Stating that MUS is not the equivalent of AoPS is not an emotional charge or statement. It is simply factual. It is really irrelevant what anyone "claims."

 

So, if someone posts a question about a math program wanting one that is challenging for an advanced student and MUS is recommended and others disagree, does that mean that they are attempting to exclusively define "rigorous" or that they are simply stating a factual comparison based on their experience with both programs?

[Janice in NJ]

 

Love in what we say, and love in how we receive the posts of tired people, is what counts.

 

:iagree:

 

(I hope we're cool. :001_smile:)

Janice

[Corraleno]

There is a huge range of "rigor" in different subjects and for different "children" and since I wasn't thinking of that when starting the other thread, I can see how people took offense. But that was not at all my intent.

Joan, I don't think it was the word rigorous, per se, that bothered people so much as the implication in the title (probably also not your intent) that people who don't school in a certain way, or use a certain level of "rigorous" materials, don't belong here. Perhaps people were especially sensitive since the thread almost immediately followed one that included discussion about "dumbed down" materials and who should or shouldn't be allowed to call themselves "homeschoolers." Given that context, it may have seemed rather more divisive than you intended, i.e., "if you don't meet certain criteria for 'rigorous studies' then you should go somewhere else." I'm definitely not saying that was your intent, just saying that, under the circumstances, that may be how people took it.

 

Jackie

[FaithManor]

"Vigorous"! :biggrinjester:

 

"She's a vigorous homeschooling mother." Hmmmm...kind of conjures up an image of a mom wearing a gym suit and Nike shoes carrying a clip-board, some note-cards, and a stop-watch!

 

Well, I guess it's back to the old drawing board. :auto:

 

Faith

[Guest]

And I don't think that this is happening. So it's all good, yes?

 

It's not happening on this thread at the moment. But it has happened, on other threads, repeatedly.

[Orthodox6]

I'm as off-base as they come, I suppose. Whatever a good-quality dictionary provides as the definition of "rigorous", that is what I'll use. Can't help it if there is a spectrum of personally allowed accretions to the base meaning! :)

[Greta Lea]

However, I still don't like it and won't use it. I prefer "intellectually challenging."

 

 

I like this term also. Each person is different intellectually, so we create courses of study that challenge our students exactly where they are intellectually.

[ereks mom]

I use "challenging".

[Joan in GE]

So I am way into the rigor of "learning and doing," the rigor of "developing the mind," rather than the rigor of "transcripts and textbooks."

 

I find that when I post about alternatives to textbooks, that I am considered non-rigorous and my thoughts are just not what the thread poster is seeking -- because I think it's "rigorous textbooks" that folks are truly wanting when they ask for "rigor" these days.

 

Julie - wait - this is not entirely what I meant which is why I had posted this -

 

The types of studies that I'm thinking of typically incur more effort for the average person. While it is easy to think of AP coursework, there are individualized plans of study that are at a difficult level but not measured by AP exams, yet would be appreciated by more selective schools...

 

Remember that I'm not that great at self-expression, so try to read in between the lines here in a friendly way....and that this probably tends to happen in one to a few subjects, not all subjects...

I was trying to express in some poorly done way that there are other ways of getting there than just a textbook. Faith's new science thread comes to mind, though to me, her dd has gone way beyond the AP level. So I'd put her level at the top along with others that have become so completely immersed in a subject that it is them in away (mine are not there in any subjects - though I'd love it to happen and posts like hers stimulate the possibility at least partially), then below that somewhere is AP or equivalent (not textbook but AoPS - though maybe that's above AP in some courses/advanced anything - whether music, history, writing, etc etc -) - I think some subjects lend themselves to a textbook style for advanced work more than others, but as Faith has well shown, for her dd, the text was the supplement...These kinds of paths are so much more personal that no single sentence of "use this text and this study guide" - like one can almost generally do for an AP exam - would ever suffice. So it's easier to talk about "texts". But there have been great threads about nontext approaches...

 

Now, if we are talking about textbooks, then I'd like to somehow have it easier to discern differences in levels of materials/ approaches, like 8FTH below...knowing that there are various texts that are an equivalent level, but also that there are texts that are not at the same level...not that there is just "one" but probably quite a few that are at a certain level...But definitely not all texts are equivalent.

 

Stating that MUS is not the equivalent of AoPS is not an emotional charge or statement. It is simply factual. It is really irrelevant what anyone "claims."

 

So, if someone posts a question about a math program wanting one that is challenging for an advanced student and MUS is recommended and others disagree, does that mean that they are attempting to exclusively define "rigorous" or that they are simply stating a factual comparison based on their experience with both programs?

 

Joan, I don't think it was the word rigorous, per se, that bothered people so much as the implication in the title (probably also not your intent) that people who don't school in a certain way, or use a certain level of "rigorous" materials, don't belong here. Perhaps people were especially sensitive since the thread almost immediately followed one that included discussion about "dumbed down" materials and who should or shouldn't be allowed to call themselves "homeschoolers." Given that context, it may have seemed rather more divisive than you intended, i.e., "if you don't meet certain criteria for 'rigorous studies' then you should go somewhere else." I'm definitely not saying that was your intent, just saying that, under the circumstances, that may be how people took it.

 

Jackie - I'm rethinking this now, seeing it through your eyes and trying to see how it matches up with my thoughts at the time of the first post in the thread....It does sound like a "blanket statement" but I didn't mean it as one. I definitely did not want to "divide" and I can see what you are saying about following the other threads causing more problems....I did want it to be easier to identify materials that would challenge an advanced student without people feeling threatened or put down and then people end up not discussing those materials at all for fear of offending. So when I had asked about other boards, it was not that I want people to leave here (because like I've said many times, I do appreciate all the different voices, understanding how different people perceive the same statement in such different ways, and many other things), but more wanted rigor to at least have a place. Again, we can't generally be rigorous in all subjects, so of course less rigorous has to have a place as well. But "rigorous" as in nonsubjective challenging materials for advanced students, not as in how hard a student is studying, should still have a place. For me, the history, lit, rhethoric of SWB is very challenging. The science and math are less so, so need a definite place on the board as they are not in the book.

 

But in the discussion that ensued there were many posts about the relativity/subjectivity of rigor which is why I wanted to reserve rigor for those type of discussions and find a new word to discuss challenging/advanced/stretching materials. But when I see these words, they can all be used very subjectively also.

 

Mine are not geniuses, not outliers in any area at all. But, for example, I did waste a certain amount of time in Jr Hi on materials for science that were recommended highly by a nonscience person. They were interesting and we learned some things, but in retrospect, it would have been better to do something else. Ds could have had a better foundation in that time. BUT this does not mean that a nonscience person cannot have a good recommendation if they have been able to find those challenging materials for their children. AND even though I have a better science background than humanities one, I hadn't dealt with homeschooling science through high school which radically changes my perspective. Which brings me back to Janice's words on a different thread about how difficult it is to know where someone is coming from sometimes. We search and search and sometimes we're so happy with what we have found and sometimes less so...Not the end of the world by any means, but it is helpful to learn from others' mistakes.

 

"She's a vigorous homeschooling mother." Hmmmm...kind of conjures up an image of a mom wearing a gym suit and Nike shoes carrying a clip-board, some note-cards, and a stop-watch!

 

I would have liked to include other posts, and elegantlion's on the other thread seems related to how to identify where the poster is coming from, and appreciated other posts but couldn't include them all.

 

But my children are in the process of making a video of me on the WTM forums about how I don't respond when on or give the wrong answers to questions...so I better get off! Plus it's bedtime.

 

Joan

Edited June 27, 2011 by Joan in Geneva

[Murphy101]

I know. I know. Someone will chime in with the snob argument. I'm prepared, though. In Snobbery: The American Version, Joseph Epstein writes:

 

High standards generally — about workmanship in the creation of objects, about what is owed in friendship, about the quality of art, and much else — far from being snobbish, are required to maintain decency in life. When the people who value these things are called snobs, the word is usually being used in a purely sour-grapes way. 'Elitist,' a politically super-charged word, is almost invariably another sour-grapes word, at least when used to denigrate people who insist on a high standard... Delight in excellence is easily confused with snobbery by the ignorant.

 

Delight in excellence is easily confused with snobbery by the ignorant. Yes. Yes. That's it precisely. As one of "those people" who work to help students achieve academic excellence, I've always, well,

delighted in this passage since it so neatly summarizes my early experience trying to discuss such issues as academic standards and teacher quality (and, by extension, qualifications). Slapped with the elitist label one too many times, though, I grew quiet.

 

But we continue to use excellence as our byword.

 

Ohhhh. I like this one!

 

"Vigorous"! :biggrinjester:

 

"She's a vigorous homeschooling mother." Hmmmm...kind of conjures up an image of a mom wearing a gym suit and Nike shoes carrying a clip-board, some note-cards, and a stop-watch!

 

Well, I guess it's back to the old drawing board. :auto:

 

Faith

 

I nearly spewed tea everywhere because if you replace nike with rebok - that's exactly what I have at hand at this very moment!

 

We are working on providing an "excellent vigorous education" to our children!:D

[elegantlion]

Ohhhh. I like this one!

 

 

 

I nearly spewed tea everywhere because if you replace nike with rebok - that's exactly what I have at hand at this very moment!

 

We are working on providing an "excellent vigorous education" to our children!:D

 

 

 

When I hear vigorous I think of the gym teacher from Glee (of which I have watched exactly two episodes).

 

Either that or a back massage, of which my ds has used to try and bribe me to get out of school work before. Let's just say he knows how to negotiate and may have done a few less algebra problems than planned on some days. I didn't mind, my neck tension was gone.

[FaithManor]

When I hear vigorous I think of the gym teacher from Glee (of which I have watched exactly two episodes).

 

 

:lol::lol: Hysterical because I had her in mind when I wrote it. Seriously, I've been accused of being "her" to academics! I've seen about six Glee episodes, which completely crack me up because I'm a musician, and whoever that actress is, she manages to make me snort every time!

 

Vigorous Excellence! That's not half bad! :D

 

Faith

[Ellie]

Does there actually need to be a word? Can't we just ask for information? Can't we just tell others what we've done/liked/not liked and let people figure out for themselves whether it suits their needs or not?

[tex-mex]

I still like rigorous. :)

 

To me, it's relative. My application of "rigorous" means something different for every child, depending on the child's gifts and aspirations. I'm going to stick with rigorous. ;)

:iagree:

[Geo]

I still like rigorous. :)

 

To me, it's relative. My application of "rigorous" means something different for every child, depending on the child's gifts and aspirations. I'm going to stick with rigorous. ;)

 

:thumbup:

[Ecclecticmum]

Studious? :lol:

 

Explicit, detailed, scientific, systematic, voracious, solid

 

Gotta love thesaurus :D

 

Although Studious isn't from thesaurus, its just my favourite word for today :tongue_smilie:

[Rosie_0801]

I was thinking "Tuff." No one will be intimidated by a misspelled word!

 

Oh my brilliance! :svengo:

 

 

Kidding :D

 

Rosie

[Joan in GE]

Vigorous Excellence! That's not half bad! :D

I can see this in your science thread - it really raises the bar for me (and others' threads that are similar) and is stimulating, even if normally unattainable in entirety, in how it will potentially change some of what we're doing.

 

Delight in excellence is easily confused with snobbery

here I would put in "unexposed" rather than "ignorant" (due to negative connotations) even though in this context they probably mean the same thing.

 

I like excellence - but once again see subjectivity as I'm reflecting on it....thinking here of IEW, which some people find "excellent" and others don't. I just don't know how to get away from subjectivity.

 

Joan

Edited June 27, 2011 by Joan in Geneva

[Joan in GE]

Studious? :lol:

 

Explicit, detailed, scientific, systematic, voracious, solid

 

Gotta love thesaurus :D

 

Although Studious isn't from thesaurus, its just my favourite word for today :tongue_smilie:

 

With the new thread on "rigor", (putting in the link for the future when these threads will be separated by time), it doesn't look like we're getting any concensus on a new word. But all the discussion is stimulating and helps flesh out new concepts and is promotes rigorousness in the way defined in the new thread...at least some good is coming from all of this (I hope!)

 

Joan

Edited June 27, 2011 by Joan in Geneva

[8filltheheart]

I can see this in your science thread - it really raises the bar for me (and others' threads that are similar) and is stimulating even if normally unattainable in entirety, by changing some of what we're doing.

 

here I would put in "unexposed" rather than "ignorant" (due to negative connotations) even though in this context they probably mean the same thing.

 

I like excellence - but once again see subjectivity as I'm reflecting on it....thinking here of IEW, which some people find "excellent" and others don't. I just don't know how to get away from subjectivity.

 

Joan

 

 

Joan,

 

I just read the other thread on the definition of rigor. It simply seems like a spin-off of Bloom's taxonomy. Faith's wonderful post exemplifies the a student reaching the pinnacle of the pyramid and dwelling in synthesizing/evaluating independently.

 

Perhaps speaking in strictly in philosophical educational terms, the question is the desired goal knowledge/understanding (the lowest levels of the taxonomy)? This is the target goal of most modern educational practices. Or is the goal unique assessment/theoretical evaluation based on synthesizing multiple data (the highest level)?

 

Back to my MUS/AoPS example......MUS is in the knowledge/understanding category and AoPS is in the synthesizing/evaluation category.

[Guest momk2000]

I like to say challenging. :D

[Joan in GE]

Joan,

 

I just read the other thread on the definition of rigor. It simply seems like a spin-off of Bloom's taxonomy. Faith's wonderful post exemplifies the student reaching the pinnacle of the pyramid and dwelling in synthesizing/evaluating independently.

 

Perhaps speaking in strictly in philosophical educational terms, the question is the desired goal knowledge/understanding (the lowest levels of the taxonomy)? This is the target goal of most modern educational practices. Or is the goal unique assessment/theoretical evaluation based on synthesizing multiple data (the highest level)?

 

Back to my MUS/AoPS example......MUS is in the knowledge/understanding category and AoPS is in the synthesizing/evaluation category.

 

Thank you for helping me as I grope my way to understanding/verbalization -

 

I feel understood!

 

Yes and no. Yes for some subjects, no for others where the student is more talented/ has more capacity...but the educational environment might not allow for or encourage the higher development, so it might not happen..

 

Is it correct to think you would have to pass through all the different levels?

 

With the higher goal, then there are materials that meet the different levels to arrive at the higher goal - though the higher you get the more you would need more than a book it seems....but for the last part in the quote of Thompson - (in looking at Bloom's (on Wikipedia of course), I don't see that last part about the person "reconsidering themselves"..."feeling like intellectual strangers"- is that in other descriptions of the taxonomy?) I'm wondering if there can be materials that get a person there (might depend more on the subject) or whether you would have to have the kind of teacher talked about or the person becomes so intensely innerly involved that they could come to that place on their own..............

 

Back to the question of a word - I'm looking for one to describe those materials (if they exist) or teacher or personal involvement...that help bring a person to the last two or three levels in the new "rigor" thread....looks like it could be tricky...

 

there was "genuine difficulty", "severe difficulty", and finally the "reconsider self" rigorous...

 

do high school students get to that final one?

 

Trying to understand,

Joan

[FaithManor]

Joan,

 

I think I know how to avoid subjectivity! A missionary was just telling me about the tribe he is working with in Papua New Guinea. Their language is very limited - only 2000 words and mostly nouns and verbs with just a few adjectives.

 

So, we'd be the "hard teachers". That's it! No subjectivity there. :D It's a problem of the English Langauge. Our kids would be the hard students and their work would be hard! We all just need to communicate in "guinease" (I have no idea what the dialect is actually called). :lol:

 

Okay, I promise not to post again until I've inhaled a pot of coffee.

 

Faith

[at the beach]

...

Edited June 28, 2011 by Violet