Isn't the Well Trained Mind meant for rigorous studies?

[Joan in GE]

Probably I'm going to get tomatoes thrown and maybe I'm just feeling grumpy with too much paperwork....and maybe I'm misunderstanding because I don't read every word in posts dealing with this...

 

It seems like SWB wrote her books to propose to those interested a path, for them or their children, to a "well trained mind".....

 

Then she opened her forums so that interested parties could have a place to discuss how to do that in practical terms and even refine her recommendations (that last is an assumption and hope on my part) and as a generous move towards people interested in her ideas and purchasing her materials....

 

Then, since it is a forum that gets so many conversations going and the format is so user friendly, more and more people join in...even with posts that have nothing to do with the original goal... and some people even get angry with the person hosting these forums freely to all of us...or with people trying to stick to the original goal...

 

And then "rigorous" even gets a bad name...

 

Something doesn't seem right - why is rigorous sidelined? (ETD because I didn't meant to offend. It was a rhetorical question that some took literally.)

 

Am I misunderstanding the purpose of these forums?

 

How can people overlook the generosity of the owner????

 

Just asking, since I'm asking myself this question and there is no one here with whom to discuss it,

Joan

Edited June 25, 2011 by Joan in Geneva

[Ester Maria]

Well, to be perfectly honest, at times I do wonder whether what I perceive as the "target audience" of these boards - people interested in rigorous classical home education of their children - has become a minority on "its own" (well, Susan's, but you get the point) territory. :tongue_smilie: I suppose that for people who have been on here much longer than me it is an even more interesting thing to observe.

 

I think that what happened, at some point, is that these boards had attracted so much wisdom, experience, easy to navigate practical information, and so many diverse people united by the same goal who had contributed an awful lot that might be of interest to general public and other homeschoolers too, that they started to attract other people because of that, rather than because of the philosophy behind that type of education, so as a result they became very pluralistic and inclusive and have thus changed - for the better and for the worse, as it usually goes, since every change will be a bit of both. Personally, I often wish they were more "classical", more educationally "right wing", less a place in which you are afraid to use the word "rigorous" because of potential negative connotations; on the other hand, I believe we can all profit from the differences in perspectives and approaches that we learn about here and that the boards have sort of always had an important secondary role of serving as a place to discuss education in general, outside of the boundaries of a particular method or philosophy - so from that point of view, the diversity that has accumulated on here is something to welcome rather than to condemn. In addition, I think that allowing space, in your virtual space, even for those who question your type of education, speaks volumes about somebody.

 

I think that in their present state the boards are a good common denominator for many different types of educators and people, even if we may - sometimes drastically - part ways in what we do, how we approach education and what we believe it should consist of.

[Renee in NC]

The tone of the boards as a whole has changed over the years, I think. The biggest jump seemed to come when the forums changed to the new format (which is much easier to use for most people.) In addition, some of the long-term WTMers have moved on as their dc went to school and/or graduated. Others have gone away due to things that have occured on the board that have nothing to do with homeschooling.

 

I don't think you are speaking of resource choices specifically, correct? I have seen threads in the past where people want to know where all the WTM purists are (those who only do/use what SWB recommends.) TWTM espouses a particular method and recomments certain resources, but the method is not dependent on the resources.

 

I've been contemplating what education means to me quite a bit lately as I plan for next year. It is very, very difficult for me to pursue a very language-intensive curriculum with the language-based LDs in my home. However, I keep coming back to the idea that we should push ahead, even if it is difficult, in order to get as far as we can.

 

I am very grateful for those who are pushing for academic excellence and achievement to keep me going down the path I know is best.

[Mommyfaithe]

The tone of the boards as a whole has changed over the years, I think. The biggest jump seemed to come when the forums changed to the new format (which is much easier to use for most people.) In addition, some of the long-term WTMers have moved on as their dc went to school and/or graduated. Others have gone away due to things that have occured on the board that have nothing to do with homeschooling.

 

I don't think you are speaking of resource choices specifically, correct? I have seen threads in the past where people want to know where all the WTM purists are (those who only do/use what SWB recommends.) TWTM espouses a particular method and recomments certain resources, but the method is not dependent on the resources.

 

I've been contemplating what education means to me quite a bit lately as I plan for next year. It is very, very difficult for me to pursue a very language-intensive curriculum with the language-based LDs in my home. However, I keep coming back to the idea that we should push ahead, even if it is difficult, in order to get as far as we can.

 

I am very grateful for those who are pushing for academic excellence and achievement to keep me going down the path I know is best.

 

:iagree::iagree: Some of the discussions leave me...:confused::confused:

 

Faithe

[creekland]

I think I've missed a thread or two to understand the background to your question. While I'm still checking daily, the number of threads I have time to actually read has decreased due to other time demands associated with college research and summer.

 

That said, I know I never came on here due to TWTM. I didn't even know the book existed prior to getting on here. I just knew the education I saw my kids getting in ps wasn't what I wanted it to be academically (rigorous would fit) and we opted to homeschool once the oldest hit high school figuring we couldn't do worse. When looking for resources, I came upon this board.

 

And I've loved it. I've found resources via this board that I'd never have found on my own. I've found parents who are ahead of me (student age-wise) who freely share their experiences. Actually, ditto that with parents who have students the same age or close.

 

I'm fully aware that there are those who homeschool for other reasons and they share this board. Chances are, I've learned a tip or two from them as well.

 

Life is a mix of people with many different values and goals. I see this forum as that mix with the commonality that we all homeschool or afterschool.

 

And I like it - even if I'm not 100% sharing some values others have.

 

I even like it when people share their true thoughts - not just some party line. I don't have to agree with those thoughts, but they make me think. ;)

[FaithManor]

Well, to be perfectly honest, at times I do wonder whether what I perceive as the "target audience" of these boards - people interested in rigorous classical home education of their children - has become a minority on "its own" (well, Susan's, but you get the point) territory.

 

I was on the old boards, a different boardie name then, and fell off when we were in the midst of our intensive home renovation. I rejoined last year and was shocked at how much had changed. For one thing, as a classical homeschooler, I was now in the minority and quickly found out that one had to be very careful how one describes your own homeschool philosophy, goals, and path to those goals. On the old board, this was not so. I miss some of the old boardies whose children graduated and they chose to move on. They were there when I first planned a high school path for dd and their advice was invaluable.

 

I now find that I write responses to threads and then turn around and delete as many as I actually post. I do want to be helpful when I can, but on the other hand, it's so easy to be jumped on for being a classical homeschooler and I end up, some days more than others, with cold feet. I have brave moments; I've recently contributed to a couple of the more dramatic threads on dumbing-down, etc. But, I do find myself editing far more (probably a good thing :001_smile:) and sharing much less of what we did with dd and are doing with ds, then I could.

 

Faith

[Grace is Sufficient]

... as one whose wish for a (somewhat) classical/rigorous education had to bow to the reality of who my children are:

 

1) I agree with you entirely.

 

2) I don't actually think there are any other comparable *high school* level discussion boards. An attempt was made to start one a few years back, but I believe it fizzled.

 

3) I actually 'self-censor' my comments based on a awareness of the issue.

 

4) However, due to my personal experience, I can get a little huffy/defensive at what I sometimes perceive as an arrogant, condescending tone toward those who may be just doing the best they can with what they have. (Note: I didn't sense any of that in the OP or follow-ups so far, but frankly, I'm expecting it to appear! ;))

 

5) Finally, I've wondered if we should consider labeling our posts classical or non-classical because there is such a diversity on the board.

 

6) Ooops! Thought of one more point... I, at least, am very aware that I am not the target audience of this board, but let me tell you that I have been tremendously blessed by being here (specifically the high school level); my children's education and my sanity has been very positively impacted by all the help and advice I have gleaned/received.

Many thanks to the 'classicals' among you for sharing your wonderful resource!

 

Debbie

[Nan in Mass]

ayuh

(ETA - This is in answer to Ester Maria's post. I suddenly remembered that not everyone is in hybrid mode.)

(EATA - I remember this complaint showing up before. It has periodically for many years. I'm not saying that things aren't changing; they most definately are - what doesn't? But this isn't a new feeling.)

Edited June 24, 2011 by Nan in Mass

[Renee in NC]

... as one whose wish for a (somewhat) classical/rigorous education had to bow to the reality of who my children are:

 

4) However, due to my personal experience, I can get a little huffy/defensive at what I sometimes perceive as an arrogant, condescending tone toward those who may be just doing the best they can with what they have. (Note: I didn't sense any of that in the OP or follow-ups so far, but frankly, I'm expecting it to appear! ;))

 

6) Ooops! Thought of one more point... I, at least, am very aware that I am not the target audience of this board, but let me tell you that I have been tremendously blessed by being here (specifically the high school level); my children's education and my sanity has been very positively impacted by all the help and advice I have gleaned/received.

Many thanks to the 'classicals' among you for sharing your wonderful resource!

 

Debbie

 

I totally agree with these points. I think most posters, classical or not, bring something to the board. We all read everything here through our own filters and what offends/irritates will be based on those filters.

 

For example, when my dc went to school for part of this last school year, I was irritated/annoyed by sweeping statements about the inferiority of public school. Others were annoyed by my defense of those same schools. Now that we are back to homeschooling, I am not likely to take as much offense by these sort of comments. Besides, now I live in a place where the local schools are NOT good!:tongue_smilie:

 

Most of us just want to do what is best for our dc with the limitations we have (time, money, ability, etc.)

[at the beach]

I discovered these forums after reading WTM. I'm grateful for these boards and the varying perspectives.

 

The board rules state that this forum is hosted for home educators. It doesn't seem there is a restriction that one has to be a classical educator to participate.

 

Rigorous is in the eye of the beholder. SWB recommends TT in her newest edition of WTM. Routinely, that program is not viewed as rigorous on these forums.

 

As far as overlooking the generosity of the owner, I am not sure that anyone actually is doing that. Not sure we should be worrying about SWB's generosity being overlooked because I'm thinking SWB can let us know herself if she feels that way.

 

Also, there is another board rule that says to not talk about the boards. So, it seems this thread might be in violation of that rule.:leaving:

[WishboneDawn]

I just want to say I'm thankful that it's a diverse group here. I started out as a radical unschooler, moved into eclectic homeschooling and then came here and am being seduced by the more rigorous homschoolers. I don't think I would have made that journey if there wasn't room for me and the less rigorous folk.

 

Of course now that I want a more rigorous approach I'm not finding as much here as I'd like. Is there a social group that could help or maybe taggin or labeling some posts with "horrible taskmaster" or something similar so those like me can get more support and guidence? :)

[flyingiguana]

I kind of see a classical education as something to strive for, but in our case, it's been fairly unattainable. The reason? There's just so much more to know these days.

 

For example, if we decide to do a thorough job on math and science, that takes away the time we might have spent on a classical language.

 

I think some may define "rigor" as covering everything equally, while we've tended more towards covering some things really well and fitting in the rest as best we can. But even though we've used videos and historical fiction for most of our history coverage (we have the rigorous books, but no one ever has time to do them justice) that doesn't mean we don't aspire to cover history thoroughly. We've just discovered that we can do a decent job with different materials, freeing up time to do the things my kids are really passionate about: music and science.

 

Also, at times we have to sit back and see what works. Although reading the difficult historical works may seem like the best way to go, when it comes to retention, my kids have seemed to do better with video. So I lean toward what gets the best bang for the buck.

 

But even in those subjects that we've given short shrift, my kids seem to know a lot more than their friends in regular school. Sure, I'd rather my kids were great scholars in all subjects, but we've had to make choices, and it doesn't seem as if these choices have resulted in them knowing *less* than a typical kid, so I'm reasonably satisfied.

 

Part of our problem, I think, is our science background. When we decide to teach science and math to our kids, we are VERY thorough, probably more so than if we were just using a standard curriculum. This takes up more time, so something else has had to give.

 

And in the high school years, I suspect the most important thing is to get the kids thinking, and learning how to extract information from difficult texts (whether primary historical documents or science texts). It's nice to have a well rounded smattering of knowledge from all disciplines, but in reality, if our kids want to go into this or that field, they're going to end up learning things in much more depth than we will ever accomplish in high school. The best we can do right now is give them the tools for further learning. For that, a classical education can be a good jumping off point for rigorous study, but it probably isn't necessary that we do every single subject this way -- just enough that we train them in HOW to learn effectively. And for that, doing a few subjects in depth is probably all that's really necessary.

[HeidiKC]

Well, to be perfectly honest, at times I do wonder whether what I perceive as the "target audience" of these boards - people interested in rigorous classical home education of their children - has become a minority on "its own" (well, Susan's, but you get the point) territory. :tongue_smilie: I suppose that for people who have been on here much longer than me it is an even more interesting thing to observe.

 

I think that what happened, at some point, is that these boards had attracted so much wisdom, experience, easy to navigate practical information, and so many diverse people united by the same goal who had contributed an awful lot that might be of interest to general public and other homeschoolers too, that they started to attract other people because of that, rather than because of the philosophy behind that type of education, so as a result they became very pluralistic and inclusive and have thus changed - for the better and for the worse, as it usually goes, since every change will be a bit of both. Personally, I often wish they were more "classical", more educationally "right wing", less a place in which you are afraid to use the word "rigorous" because of potential negative connotations; on the other hand, I believe we can all profit from the differences in perspectives and approaches that we learn about here and that the boards have sort of always had an important secondary role of serving as a place to discuss education in general, outside of the boundaries of a particular method or philosophy - so from that point of view, the diversity that has accumulated on here is something to welcome rather than to condemn. In addition, I think that allowing space, in your virtual space, even for those who question your type of education, speaks volumes about somebody.

 

I think that in their present state the boards are a good common denominator for many different types of educators and people, even if we may - sometimes drastically - part ways in what we do, how we approach education and what we believe it should consist of.

 

:iagree: GREAT post.

[EKS]

I started coming here (actually there--the old boards) when I was attempting to do the WTM thing with my dyslexic 8yo. He is now 15, and I've learned a lot along the way. We have moved away from WTM in many ways because I need to do what works for my children, but we haven't moved away from it in spirit.

 

I'm happy that there is a well traveled place to come, where most of the regular contributers are not unschoolers, and where many are seriously rigorous homeschoolers--classical or not.

[Ecclecticmum]

This is a very wise, adult forum. I think people come here to "suck up" the wisdom LOL.

 

I originally joined as their was a wide variety of interesting topics, especially on the subject of curriculum itself.

 

I think its great that people are honest even with the authors products themselves, and about who it is/isn't suitable for.

 

We started out using nothing really from said author, and now, over the short time I have been here, I have purchased WTM, WEM, SOTW AG, and OPGTR. We plan to use quite a number of PHP products next year.

 

So I think when a curriculum isn't "forced" upon members of its forum, and that in the forum in question, people can actually give their honest reviews, it can actually increase sales, than if you were only permitted to be apart of this forum if you already owned a piece of merchandise.

 

If that makes sense....its late here, and I have cotton-ball brain LOL.

 

I don't like to put myself in a given area, preferring to educate my children individually upon their needs, so no matter what curriculum's I am using I still count myself as eclectic.

 

I think the way this forum is now is as near perfect as a forum can get, and the only way to make it perfect would be to add a few more sub-topics within the main headlines.

 

:D:grouphug:

[LanaTron]

while we've tended more towards covering some things really well and fitting in the rest as best we can. But even though we've used videos and historical fiction for most of our history coverage (we have the rigorous books, but no one ever has time to do them justice) that doesn't mean we don't aspire to cover history thoroughly. We've just discovered that we can do a decent job with different materials, freeing up time to do the things my kids are really passionate about: music and science.

 

Which is what I understand when SWB talks about for the high school years--letting them spend more time/energy on their passions, and just checking the box for the other stuff.

[elegantlion]

I started posting here when the format changed. I only lurked before because I heard the WTM boardies will rip you to shreds if you're not careful.

 

The differences I found here vs. the other board I used to frequent are:

 

1. There is not the assumption that you are a conservative christian homeschooling for religious reasons.

 

2. If you ask for input on a curriculum choice you don't get simple replies like "You will love it's great! I looked at the samples online, I know it will work for you!"

 

3. You may be challenged in your thinking. When I post an idea and poster "A" brings up four reasons to not do the curriculum, and poster "B" ask me four more questions WHY I want to use the material, I find myself having to think more. (shock!)

 

4. You may have to defend your choices with more than "We love it!" I've had to think more about why something works for us, how that is particular to my child, and IF I would recommend it to another person.

 

5. There is an assumption that you want the best education possible for your children.

 

6. There is an assumption that you will not take references without understanding the education philosophy and background of the person recommending it.

 

After three years I still find most of those things here. I have certain posters I follow around and save much of their wisdom. I don't find a lot of people passively homeschooling their children here, and I've seen that happen.

 

For me, some of it may be hanging out on the high school board vs. the elementary board. We don't follow WTM recs, we follow more LCC. I use WTM as a reference source a lot, but that's not our mode of education.

 

I also think many people on this board feel the confidence to tweak and mold the education of their own children, so it may not look like WTM exactly by the time they hit high school. I find the experiences of those people to be quite valuable.

[cathmom]

I personally don't like the word "rigor" because all it makes me think of is "rigormortis." :D

 

I could say other stuff but there's probably no point.

[Nan in Mass]

Wishbone - The hive coined the word "Draconian Homeschooler" to meet this need. There is a social group, but I don't know how active it is. There are other social groups that you might like, also. If you click on the communities button along the top, you can get to a list of all the social groups (click show all).

 

Your point about people arriving in the hive in one state and then growing and changing once here is a good one. I have grown a ton here, too. I keep thinking that it is too bad that just about the time when I will have learned enough to do a good job homeschooling, I will run out of children to homeschool LOL.

 

Perhaps we all worry too much. This is a hive. Assimilation is inevitable GRIN. Hmmm... Perhaps we don't worry enough...

 

-Nan

[Brenda in MA]

I, too, found these forums after reading the first edition of TWTM back in 2000. They have been my constant guide ever since. So I am truly thankful to SWB for both the book and the forums.

 

The general collection of topics here does seem to have strayed a little bit from the core classical bent that it used to have. I'm OK with that. If you have a question on a pure classical approach or curriculum, you will still find people willing to answer and share experiences.

 

I like the fact that people with different approaches to homeschooling post here. I can honestly say that I've learned a lot from folks who are more "relaxed" hsers and from folks who are more "rigorous" in approach than I am. As an earlier poster said, the discussions here often make me think and question my approach. On the whole, that has been a great thing, and my children have benefited greatly from the experiences of all of you. I, too, have felt badly needed support over the years because most of my IRL hsing friends are not as structured or rigorous in their hsing.

 

I think we have a great community here because most members are respectful of the fact that there is no one right homeschooling approach for everyone. I have learned to admire those with incredibly academically-oriented kids who really need to be challenged. I've also learned to admire those whose children have learning challenges and are doing the best that they can to meet their children where they are. As someone else said, I think what unites the folks on this board is that we all share a passion for seeing our children succeed, no matter what form that takes.

 

Brenda

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Wishbone - The hive coined the word "Draconian Homeschooler" to meet this need. There is a social group, but I don't know how active it is. There are other social groups that you might like, also. If you click on the communities button along the top, you can get to a list of all the social groups (click show all).

 

Your point about people arriving in the hive in one state and then growing and changing once here is a good one. I have grown a ton here, too. I keep thinking that it is too bad that just about the time when I will have learned enough to do a good job homeschooling, I will run out of children to homeschool LOL.

 

Perhaps we all worry too much. This is a hive. Assimilation is inevitable GRIN. Hmmm... Perhaps we don't worry enough...

 

-Nan

 

Card-carrying Draconian hs'er, checking in! I wish the social group were more active, but then again I like to see the 'rigor' discussions on the main boards when possible.

 

TWTM was an answer to prayer for me. I knew I had a problem, however, when I would finish each chapter and say to myself, "Well, that's interesting! Definitely a good place to start..."

[Gwen in VA]

Rigorous is in the eye of the beholder.

:iagree:

 

I value the diversity of opinions on these boards. I appreciate the open discussions. Sometimes certain opinions bother me, but I back off and take a breather. After all, if everyone thought like I do, coming to the boards would be pointless! :D

 

I am not a classical homeschooler. Wait...maybe I am. I am certainly a draconian homeschooler, but I am too math/sciency to be a "true" classical homeschooler. But wait, my kids all study Latin and Greek and are bibliophiles. No, I can't possibly be a classical homeschooler -- I don't reference WTM often enough. But since we do tend to blend history and literature studies, maybe I am. No, we spend too much time on math to delve into the humanities the way classical homeschoolers should. But I do require my kids to write a lot, we discuss everything, and my kids are pretty comfortable with "verbal" standardized tests. But no one in the family has read Herodatus, so we can't possibly be bona fide classical homeschoolers..........

 

And what does a classical education look like for a future music major? What does it look like for a kid who is entering a trade after high school? What does it look like for a kid who pours untold hours into the company he has founded and so needs to get his academics done "efficiently"?

 

Hmmm.........

[Renee in NC]

I, too, found these forums after reading the first edition of TWTM back in 2000. They have been my constant guide ever since. So I am truly thankful to SWB for both the book and the forums.

 

The general collection of topics here does seem to have strayed a little bit from the core classical bent that it used to have. I'm OK with that. If you have a question on a pure classical approach or curriculum, you will still find people willing to answer and share experiences.

 

I like the fact that people with different approaches to homeschooling post here. I can honestly say that I've learned a lot from folks who are more "relaxed" hsers and from folks who are more "rigorous" in approach than I am. As an earlier poster said, the discussions here often make me think and question my approach. On the whole, that has been a great thing, and my children have benefited greatly from the experiences of all of you. I, too, have felt badly needed support over the years because most of my IRL hsing friends are not as structured or rigorous in their hsing.

 

I think we have a great community here because most members are respectful of the fact that there is no one right homeschooling approach for everyone. I have learned to admire those with incredibly academically-oriented kids who really need to be challenged. I've also learned to admire those whose children have learning challenges and are doing the best that they can to meet their children where they are. As someone else said, I think what unites the folks on this board is that we all share a passion for seeing our children succeed, no matter what form that takes.

 

Brenda

 

I think as long as more "draconian" types aren't getting blasted for being, well, draconian, and "relaxed" hsers can be relaxed without being charged with being neglectful, then we're okay.;)

 

The problem comes when you (as in the general you) take something someone says as a personal judgment on their choices. I have done that alot in the past with certain topics, but I am learning that people can hold certain opinions and it doesn't mean anything personal. Generally, "those people" doesn't translate into individuals.;)

[Jonibee]

This is a very wise, adult forum. I think people come here to "suck up" the wisdom LOL.

:D:grouphug:

 

 

Thank you. This is why I'm here. ;)

[Jane in NC]

I personally don't like the word "rigor" because all it makes me think of is "rigormortis." :D

 

 

This is not the first time I have seen this comment.

 

"Rigor" is a term that is regularly used in Mathematics so I was completely baffled when I first saw the offense taken at its use. Apparently some find a certain emotional charge to the word. Here is a prime example of how we may all be speaking English but using the language differently.

 

 

Wishbone - The hive coined the word "Draconian Homeschooler" to meet this need. There is a social group, but I don't know how active it is. There are other social groups that you might like, also. If you click on the communities button along the top, you can get to a list of all the social groups (click show all).

 

 

 

Ahem. I was one of the original Draconian Homeschoolers. This dates back to the old boards when a group of us felt chastised for pursuing a rigorous, Well Trained Mind education. It was more of a joke than a serious band of sisterhood, yet it was a way for a group of us to say that we were pursuing a certain path for our kids. Again, we were not saying that other paths were incorrect. I think that we wanted to make a statement that there was a group on this board pursuing neo-classical education.

[Stacie Leigh]

I am convinced that I will never reach the standards of many of the fantastic educators on this board. I'm also convinced that homeschooling my children is still an infinitely better option than the other ones I have at this time and I'm both terrified and thrilled to have the opportunity.

 

I think that it's wonderful that all types can find advice and wisdom here and already, some of the wiser posters have helped me put my finger on some things, but I definitely understand wanting a place to unguardedly discuss things without fear of judgment. Sometimes one has to be willing to take the flack associated with that and other times, it's best to take it to a smaller audience.

 

Hopefully there are still plenty of people here that can relate and help sharpen you on your journey. :)

[Jonibee]

I think as long as more "draconian" types aren't getting blasted for being, well, draconian, and "relaxed" hsers can be relaxed without being charged with being neglectful, then we're okay.;)

 

The problem comes when you (as in the general you) take something someone says as a personal judgment on their choices. I have done that alot in the past with certain topics, but I am learning that people can hold certain opinions and it doesn't mean anything personal. Generally, "those people" doesn't translate into individuals.;)

 

I think also that so many of the discussions involving "other homeschoolers" really mean those outside of the WTM book or this board -- as in those we know on the "outside." I have so many friends IRL who have never come to the internet for anything homeschool related. Gasp! They say they are relaxed. Umm,, I have other words for what they are not having their kids do.

 

On this board, many may not be called "vigorous" by some -- but how about let's use the word "intentional"? Intentional homeschoolers are making active choices -- which also implies looking at and discarding options. In other words, thinking through things. This is what we teach our kids -- to think, evaluate, discard what doesn't fit us.

 

This is entirely opposite of neglectful homeschooling, where these books are assigned because they are the ones found at Goodwill and well, we just never got to that this year, and well, who really needs algebra anyway?

 

Intentional homeschoolers of ANY sort are admirable in my camp. And I come here to read about all you guys. ;)

[Jane in NC]

For those who are interested, it appears that another of the original Draconians still maintains her Cafepress store where mugs and t-shirts can be ordered.

 

[Joan in GE]

It does take time for things to percolate in my brain, so these were not comments from threads as we speak because I don't have time to read the threads right now.

 

So.. unkindness I saw was rarely from this board, but from probably the General Board on the times I dared peak in. But SWB had clearly been suffering several months ago; I think in general she is stoic and doesn't complain. But my point is not to "talk" about her. My words can't really express how grateful I am for all she has managed to do.

 

The Draconian group lost momentum when the founder stopped posting after the 2008 US elections I think...but the word has a kind of negative connotation.

 

I appreciate different voices - all the different voices - though I can't say all the threads because I don't read all of them. I do learn lots from people with different points of view than my own. And I agree that most of us can't do "rigorous" in all subjects. I thought ElegantLion expressed it - well, elegantly. And Brenda's post too, and other people who have voiced those thoughts of learning from others.

 

It just seems harder to get "rigorous" perspectives somehow...maybe the posters that used to do more about it have moved on....don't know. And maybe I've muddled together posts and inferred a negative connotation.

 

"Well, that's interesting! Definitely a good place to start..."

Thanks for making me laugh, my first laugh today, I have lots of good intentions too.

 

I am not a classical homeschooler. Wait...maybe I am. I am certainly a draconian homeschooler, but I am too math/sciency to be a "true" classical homeschooler. But wait, my kids all study Latin and Greek and are bibliophiles. No, I can't possibly be a classical homeschooler ...snip...

 

My second laugh for the day...but I've always put you in the rigorous category!

 

I think as long as more "draconian" types aren't getting blasted for being, well, draconian, and "relaxed" hsers can be relaxed without being charged with being neglectful, then we're okay.;)

 

The problem comes when you (as in the general you) take something someone says as a personal judgment on their choices. I have done that a lot in the past with certain topics, but I am learning that people can hold certain opinions and it doesn't mean anything personal. Generally, "those people" doesn't translate into individuals.;)

 

Maybe this reflects my inference...it's hard to think clearly... so I better not write more....

 

(Right now I'm feeling irritable because I'm trying to write a letter in French to the Swiss social security people to prove that my son is being educated even though he is not "in school" and pull together proof of this in a way they will comprehend. And worrying that exam results won't get here in time for uni admission. I probably shouldn't be posting in this state, let alone starting a discussion.)

 

Joan

 

ETA - dear me, there were posts being posted as I wrote, and now I have to go out to my dd's concert... Jane - sorry I didn't know you were one of the founders...

Edited June 24, 2011 by Joan in Geneva

[cathmom]

This is not the first time I have seen this comment.

 

"Rigor" is a term that is regularly used in Mathematics so I was completely baffled when I first saw the offense taken at its use. Apparently some find a certain emotional charge to the word. Here is a prime example of how we may all be speaking English but using the language differently.

 

 

 

It does not offend me. That is the association I have in my head and I can't get rid of it. I would not use that word because of it. There has to be a better word in English LOL.

[Halcyon]

I consider myself a rigorous homeschooler (and the word doesn't bother me ;)). I very much enjoy threads abour rigor on these boards, although in some ways we stray from a neo-classical education as SWB defines it.

 

I have enough homeschoolers in my day-to-day life who "didn't get to school today" and when I come here, I want to be inspired to a higher ideal.

 

ETA: tried to join the Draconian Homeschoolers group and it's not clear to me how to become a member (haven't joined a group before!)

Edited June 24, 2011 by Halcyon

[Jenny in Florida]

I think some may define "rigor" as covering everything equally, while we've tended more towards covering some things really well and fitting in the rest as best we can. But even though we've used videos and historical fiction for most of our history coverage (we have the rigorous books, but no one ever has time to do them justice) that doesn't mean we don't aspire to cover history thoroughly. We've just discovered that we can do a decent job with different materials, freeing up time to do the things my kids are really passionate about: music and science.

 

Exactly.

 

We've stuck relatively close to the WTM model for several years. We used different materials, but followed what I perceived to be the intent of the method. And I'm glad we did. I believe these years of classical homeschooling have given him a wonderful foundation.

 

For my son, though, preparing to move into high school studies, we need to chart a different path.

 

As I recall, TWTM refers to the rhetoric years as being a time to specialize. For my student, this particular student, I believe that loosening the reigns will give him the time and emotional energy to fall in love with learning again.

 

I have nothing against a rigorous education. I just think there are lots of ways to get one.

 

And I have nothing but admiration for parents who work hard to provide the kind of education that will best benifit their children. If it's the WTM approach straight through from preschool to graduation, that's wonderful!

 

For a lot of us, though, we've been here a long time and feel comfortable and supported by the community, even if we're not marching along the same path. I, personally, have never found another board or in-person group that I felt was more valuable.

[Greta Lea]

So I think when a curriculum isn't "forced" upon members of its forum, and that in the forum in question, people can actually give their honest reviews, it can actually increase sales, than if you were only permitted to be apart of this forum if you already owned a piece of merchandise.

 

I agree. I see that you use SL. I love the SWB has NOT done what SL has done with their boards. Keeps it more "real" on the boards.

 

I think the way this forum is now is as near perfect as a forum can get, and the only way to make it perfect would be to add a few more sub-topics within the main headlines.

 

:D:grouphug:

 

I agree.

[Jenny in Florida]

How do you define "rigorous?"

 

For example, if next year, as planned, I opt not to plan a specific curricula for my son for a few subjects and, instead, give him guidelines about what he should accomplish, how is that not rigorous?

 

If, instead of handing him a list of books he must read and assignments he must do (which he might not like or absorb because he's not paying attention), I tell him he must read an equal number of books of his choice and do an equal number of assignments chosen from a list of ideas (which may result in him learning and remembering significantly more information), why is the second less "rigorous?"

 

I'll grant you it's not "draconian," since I will have stopped trying to control his education. But I really do fail to see how it's less rigorous.

[Julie in MN]

It seems like SWB wrote her books to propose to those interested a path, for them or their children, to a "well trained mind".....

 

Then she opened her forums so that interested parties could have a place to discuss how to do that in practical terms and even refine her recommendations (that last is an assumption and hope on my part) and as a generous move towards people interested in her ideas and purchasing her materials....

 

Then, since it is a forum that gets so many conversations going and the format is so user friendly, more and more people join in...even with posts that have nothing to do with the original goal... and some people even get angry with the person hosting these forums freely to all of us...or with people trying to stick to the original goal...

 

And then "rigorous" even gets a bad name...

 

Something doesn't seem right - why is rigorous sidelined? Aren't there other forums out there for other types of homeschooling?

 

Am I misunderstanding the purpose of these forums?

 

How can people overlook the generosity of the owner????

 

Remember that SWB also wrote SOTW and FLL, and folks can use her materials without following TWTM. (For instance, MFW uses 3 years of SOTW, 1 of her Activity Books, and often MFW users also purchase her CDs and Student Pages, so they may be bigger customers than folks who just purchase TWTM.) Folks on this particular board may also use TWEM for themselves, or might just use parts of TWTM to choose curriculum, without using all of it. I do see folks post who've never read any SWB materials (and I bristle when folks post that they hate one of her books), but there still may be more who do use things she's published than you realize.

 

Personally, I haven't seen "rigor" given a bad name, but woah it feels like "non-rigorous" has been thrown out as a derogatory label all over the place -- even cast upon things that SWB recommends in TWTM (Writing Strands, TT, Science Guides, etc.). I see the defensiveness that ensues not as "against rigor" but as "in favor of the idea that rigor can be achieved in a different form." But maybe that's just me being defensive of the way I teach, which I feel is "rigorous" in terms of fighting the good fight to get maximum education into my children, but I pretty much left textbooks in the public schools when we came home.

 

I was on the old forum and here's my little theory: When I started homeschooling in 2002, Vegsource was "the big" forum, and then Vegsource got all wacko about banning people and posting lots of rules about what you could post where, so folks migrated around the web to different places & after the sand was sifted, this forum turned out to be the new "big" forum, rather than just the "WTM" forum. And SWB didn't seem to mind, and her sales continued to grow. That's my un-proven hypothesis :)

 

Julie

Edited June 24, 2011 by Julie in MN

[Nan in Mass]

I like the term. I was around when it was coined. It was a joking term, but a rueful joke, with some sadness behind it. To me, the term acknowledges the rest of the world's opinion and says that contrary to popular opinion, draconian homeschoolers have a sense of humour and a sense of perspective. : ) But perhaps that is because I saw the circumstances under which the word was born.

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

There is no way I would ever presume to call us classical homeschoolers. My mother had a classical education (well, the late American version). What we do is not nearly as good as that. It also isn't as dry or boring. She hated it and would not be pleased with me if I reproduced that in its entirety. But my children have read The Republic and The Odyssey and language arts oriented things take a lion's share of the schedule and I insisted they learn to write and we tried to learn Latin...

 

Gwen, your post made me laugh so much! And comforted me.

 

What does a classical education look like for a child who is wired a bit differently? He thinks of everything in terms of the Greek myths and gods and can't remember a word of Latin despite studying it for hours very week for years. He can discuss the motivations of the Roman leaders but would be hard put to name even a few of them.

 

-Nan

-Nan

[jibaker103]

I was on the old boards, a different boardie name then, and fell off when we were in the midst of our intensive home renovation. I rejoined last year and was shocked at how much had changed. For one thing, as a classical homeschooler, I was now in the minority and quickly found out that one had to be very careful how one describes your own homeschool philosophy, goals, and path to those goals. On the old board, this was not so. I miss some of the old boardies whose children graduated and they chose to move on. They were there when I first planned a high school path for dd and their advice was invaluable.

 

I now find that I write responses to threads and then turn around and delete as many as I actually post. I do want to be helpful when I can, but on the other hand, it's so easy to be jumped on for being a classical homeschooler and I end up, some days more than others, with cold feet. I have brave moments; I've recently contributed to a couple of the more dramatic threads on dumbing-down, etc. But, I do find myself editing far more (probably a good thing :001_smile:) and sharing much less of what we did with dd and are doing with ds, then I could.

 

Faith

I find this very, very sad!!! As a relatively new person to this board and homeschooling (about two years now) I find less and less responses to questions then when I first started. For those of us truly seeking information and advice and open to all opinions, styles, and practices it's frustrating. I'm not looking for censorship but real honest to goodness opinions, advice, and information so that I can make an educated decision for my son.

 

I would imagine most adults can read and accept advice, opinion, criticism, and information without getting their panties in a twist otherwise what was the point in asking for help in the first place! In general, I just think it is probably a few people who are very vocal and immature that ruin it for the rest. I implore everyone not to let this happen!

[jibaker103]

ayuh

(ETA - This is in answer to Ester Maria's post. I suddenly remembered that not everyone is in hybrid mode.)

(EATA - I remember this complaint showing up before. It has periodically for many years. I'm not saying that things aren't changing; they most definately are - what doesn't? But this isn't a new feeling.)

Nan or anyone else, how do you switch to hybrid mode?

[kiwi3129]

On this board, many may not be called "vigorous" by some -- but how about let's use the word "intentional"? Intentional homeschoolers are making active choices -- which also implies looking at and discarding options. In other words, thinking through things. This is what we teach our kids -- to think, evaluate, discard what doesn't fit us.

 

Intentional homeschoolers of ANY sort are admirable in my camp. And I come here to read about all you guys. ;)

 

:thumbup:

 

Kim

[Enough]

:iagree:

 

I value the diversity of opinions on these boards. I appreciate the open discussions. Sometimes certain opinions bother me, but I back off and take a breather. After all, if everyone thought like I do, coming to the boards would be pointless! :D

 

I am not a classical homeschooler. Wait...maybe I am. I am certainly a draconian homeschooler, but I am too math/sciency to be a "true" classical homeschooler. But wait, my kids all study Latin and Greek and are bibliophiles. No, I can't possibly be a classical homeschooler -- I don't reference WTM often enough. But since we do tend to blend history and literature studies, maybe I am. No, we spend too much time on math to delve into the humanities the way classical homeschoolers should. But I do require my kids to write a lot, we discuss everything, and my kids are pretty comfortable with "verbal" standardized tests. But no one in the family has read Herodatus, so we can't possibly be bona fide classical homeschoolers..........

 

And what does a classical education look like for a future music major? What does it look like for a kid who is entering a trade after high school? What does it look like for a kid who pours untold hours into the company he has founded and so needs to get his academics done "efficiently"?

 

Hmmm.........

 

This. A thousand times over.

[Paintedlady]

I consider myself a classical homeschooler with a bend toward rigor but also recognize that my kids aren't cookie cutters and that one size doesn't fit all. My kids' personalities and abilities don't always fit my goals for them. That's hard for me to take, but it doesn't mean I'm not still striving for rigor, no matter what it looks like to others.

 

I tend to not like threads like these b/c I figure what I'm doing with my kids is my own business and what you're (collective you) doing is your own business. Tsk-tsking others for what they're not doing compared to me is not something I'm interested in taking part of. The good ole days weren't that good. :tongue_smilie:

[Jane in NC]

Nan or anyone else, how do you switch to hybrid mode?

 

Go to the top of the thread in the area near the right corner. Under the page number bar, there is a button that reads "Display Mode". Click here to choose the format you wish to use.

[Ester Maria]

Go to the top of the thread in the area near the right corner. Under the page number bar, there is a button that reads "Display Mode". Click here to choose the format you wish to use.

Hey! Thank you!

 

Cool - I did not know this existed! :tongue_smilie:

[stripe]

Every group I've ever been a part of, online as well as in real life, has always eventually expressed the view that the current members pale in comparison to those from the good old days.

[jibaker103]

Go to the top of the thread in the area near the right corner. Under the page number bar, there is a button that reads "Display Mode". Click here to choose the format you wish to use.

Thank you so much!!! This is a lot easier to read.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I find this very, very sad!!! As a relatively new person to this board and homeschooling (about two years now) I find less and less responses to questions then when I first started. For those of us truly seeking information and advice and open to all opinions, styles, and practices it's frustrating. I'm not looking for censorship but real honest to goodness opinions, advice, and information so that I can make an educated decision for my son.

 

I would imagine most adults can read and accept advice, opinion, criticism, and information without getting their panties in a twist otherwise what was the point in asking for help in the first place! In general, I just think it is probably a few people who are very vocal and immature that ruin it for the rest. I implore everyone not to let this happen!

 

I will agree with this. I often come here needing a virtual kick start and a reminder that my kids' desires will have them competing with the receipients of high calibre, not always to get reassurance that everything I'm doing is A-OK.

 

I have started skipping over the threads that are obviously looking for endorsements of methods that I don't use or don't have an interest in. I would think that it can just as easily work in the opposite direction.

 

I do think that it helps if a post or a signature line indicates someone's inclinations. There is no way to "know" everyone on the board. Half the time I am only halfway paying attention to poster names at all. I don't think you can maintain philosophical points of view with hundreds or thousands of active posters.

 

For example, my thoughts about "good enough" on a math curriculum question would be very different if I know someone's kid wants to attend a highly competitive college and major in science and/or engineering, rather than being a major theatre fan who wants to finish high school and try their luck on stage stage, or study several languages and pursue a career in diplomacy. The second two might warrant a "sure, that's probably good enough" while the first one might deserve a gentle "I don't think that will get you where you want to go" (and the last one might need some questions along the line of "do you need the higher level math to get into the more select school you want to study geo political affairs").

[Paintedlady]

Every group I've ever been a part of, online as well as in real life, has always eventually expressed the view that the current members pale in comparison to those from the good old days.

 

 

:iagree: Always.

[Embassy]

I like the diversity here. I'm not classically schooling, but do incorporate elements of classical education into our schooling. That said, it is nice to have a place where rigorous isn't a 4 letter word to everyone. I personally don't think I'm too rigorous, but other homeschoolers seem to think I do too much.

[laundrycrisis]

I'm happy that there is a well traveled place to come, where most of the regular contributers are not unschoolers, and where many are seriously rigorous homeschoolers--classical or not.

 

:iagree: What she said. Exactly.