Kate in Arabia Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) There seems to be a lot of pressure around algebra, I'm not necessarily talking about this board but in general. I'm curious as to the general trend on this board vis a vis algebra. We have always taken math slow and steady; my oldest isn't gifted in math, but I'd say he's competent. He's finishing up the Singapore series this summer, having started back when he was 4 yrs with the nursery levels. We do all the supplemental books and trundle along. It is common for folks to say that Singapore is "ahead" of other programs; they even say on their website that they are half a year ahead for "average" students, and on track for advanced. Well particularly here I'm reading so many of you have children who not only are finishing on track, many are finishing early. So I was wondering whether kids are in general more advanced and maybe I'm holding him back by going so slowly, or maybe I'm just not hearing about those who are average in math, or maybe my ds is simply not good in math. We will be starting Discovering Math in August, and he will officially be in 8th grade. ..and finally, is there a reason to really push for algebra earlier, if your child isn't particularly gifted/interested in math? I mean average in math, not behind... (The poll allows for multiple choices.) Edited June 21, 2011 by Kate in Arabia Typos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

radiobrain Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I think that you should teach algebra when your kid is ready. I have one that is super mathy, one not as much and we did pre-Alg in 5th/6th and are doing algebra now in 6th/7th. That is just how it has worked out. In my totally unprofessional opinion, after your kids have mastered (or at least totally understand-maybe not memorized) the basic operations, fractions, decimals, percents and measurements... you move on to pre-alg./ algebra... regardless of age. However, I also don't really care if someone chooses to do geometry before algebra. Most people are naturally better at one or the other, and if algebra is too complicated or the kid isn't ready... doing Geometry first is an acceptable option. As you are HSing, don't worry about what other people are or aren't doing. You should do things at the pace of your child. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Sebastian (a lady) Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 There seems to be a lot of pressure around algebra, I'm not necessarily talking about this board but in general. I'm curious as to the general trend on this board vis a vis algebra. We have always taken math slow and steady; my oldest isn't gifted in math, but I'd say he's competent. He's finishing up the Singapore series this summer, having started back when he was 4 yrs with the nursery levels. We do all the supplemental books and trundle along. It is common for folks to say that Singapore is "ahead" of other programs; they even say on their website that they are half a year ahead for "average" students, and on track for advanced. Well particularly here I'm reading so many of you have children who not only are finishing on track, many are finishing early. So I was wondering whether kids are in general more advanced and maybe I'm holding him back by going so slowly, or maybe I'm just not hearing about those who are average in math, or maybe my ds is simply not good in math. We will be starting Discovering Math in August, and he will officially be in 8th grade. ..and finally, is there a reason to really push for algebra earlier, if your child isn't particularly gifted/interested in math? I mean average in math, not behind... (The poll allows for multiple choices.) On one hand I think that pushing kids into algebra before they are ready (either developmentally or with earlier math skills) is going to be work done in vain. On the other hand, I think that you do need to have a long range plan and realize that sometimes our beloved kids are going to need a bit of a push. For my family, I have a couple of kids who are interested in trying to attend a service academy (like USNA) or getting an ROTC scholarship for a civilian school. Both of these options are competitive. Last weekend I had a refresher of just how competitive we're talking about. With select schools, your competition isn't the slacker who doesn't do homework, has uninvolved parents and is just marking time. The competition in our area includes lots of kids who are taking algebra in 7th grade and progressing through calculus by senior year. Advanced Placement and International Baccalaureate programs are common. Many students are juggling these high level academics along with scouts, sports, and other extra curriculars. So I think that you have to just keep balancing. Ability on one hand and goals on the other. As for the last point, I think that math accomplishment and math flluency is something that does matter. Lots of professions use math, even those that aren't in STEM fields. And many colleges use math as a way of measuring student ability and aptitude for college (even if they are planning on pursuing a non tech field). (My dh likes to say that some of the course requirements he had in college were to see if a student would learn to excel even in something he didn't like and didn't want to do. I think there is a certain amount of truth in that.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

MorningGlory Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I think that you should teach algebra when your kid is ready. :iagree: You will probably get a huge range of answers to this! I'm sure that some start algebra very early (3rd or 4th). And I know a girl IRL who is supposedly a junior in the local ps hs...she has yet to take algebra. Not sure how she can be classified as a junior...or how she is going to graduate. Our state requires 4 credits of math. In our situation, it took my husband's boss to firmly tell him that our older ds was ready for algebra (6th grade) to awaken me from my deep slumber. I had assumed that we would just stay on the path that put algebra at 8th grade. So I started ds on Jacob's Algebra in 6th. He also used AofPS and Life of Fred which allowed me to stretch out his algebra course to a year-and-a-half. So 6th and part of 7th. Second ds will be different. At the rate he is going now, he will probably take algebra in 8th...maybe 9th. Totally different kid. A solid math student but not one to advance academically. So my point is...examine your student. Do algebra when he or she is ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

JudoMom Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 We use Saxon. My ds11 (going into 7th) will be starting Algebra this fall (and he's very ready--he's been doing the Algebra Survival Guide for fun in his spare time and has a strong math foundation), and my ds10 is on the same path. My ds8 will likely start Algebra later in 7th (sometime 2nd semester) or possibly 8th. We start with Saxon 1 in K and just keep plodding along. Middle ds wasn't ready for the big format change from Saxon 3 to Saxon 5/4, so we stopped and he did a Horizons 4 workbook for a semester. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Krista in LA Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 My great at math dd did it in 7th grade, but going by public school cut-offs, she would have been 6th grade. She just gets math and thinks she wants to major in it at college. My not bad at math son will be doing it next year in 8th grade. We'll see how it goes and if he struggles, he's young enough to do it again or do it slowly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

regentrude Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I don't think it needs to matter for YOUR decision when other people's kids take algebra. It makes no sense to have an agenda - the student must be ready and proficient in pre-algebra before moving on. This said, the real preparation for algebra begins in the elementary grades when arithmetic is studied and practiced. My DD took algebra in 7th grade and did AoPS Intro to Algebra. My DS took algebra in 6th and completed the algebra 1 portion of AoPS, but will finish the book in 7th. That means nothing for anybody else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Kate in Arabia Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 Thanks for the comments so far.. I should clarify that I'm comfortable where my oldest is at the moment (unless there is an overwhelming chorus of " how terrible!"), more I am wondering why algebra? I was reading an older thread talking about one state that was mandating algebra for all 8th graders. Why? My only minor concern is that if ds goes to high school (we're not 100% decided on that) he may be off the sequence. I wouldn't want him to be at a disadvantage, although I don't really think that would be likely, particularly if we're still overseas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

regentrude Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 more I am wondering why algebra? I was reading an older thread talking about one state that was mandating algebra for all 8th graders. Why? Several reasons. 1. Math education in the US is very different form most places in the World - it is compartmentalized (algebra, geometry in one-year packages), and it begins with higher math later than elsewhere. So, in an attempt to close the gap in math scores, they try to push algebra into 8th. (Now one of the reasons students elsehwer are ahead IS that it's not compartmentalized and that algebra, arithmetic and geometry are taught intermixed - so they can cover some geometry concepts in 6th grade, linear equations in 7th grade - but hold off more complicated concepts till later, quadratics in 9th grade for instance.) 2. Also, the very faulty reasoning goes: Studies show that kids who took algebra in 8th are more likely to take calculus in high school - so if we make everybody take algebra in 8th, more students will take calculus. This of course is faulty reasoning - because the kids who took algebra early were the mathy ones who would take calc because they are good at math. Making everybody "early" does not make them mathier. The math education in this country is seriously messed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

KAR120C Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 There seems to be a lot of pressure around algebra, I'm not necessarily talking about this board but in general. I'm curious as to the general trend on this board vis a vis algebra. We have always taken math slow and steady; my oldest isn't gifted in math, but I'd say he's competent. He's finishing up the Singapore series this summer, having started back when he was 4 yrs with the nursery levels. We do all the supplemental books and trundle along. It is much MUCH better to have a solid understanding of arithmetic with integers, fractions, decimals, and percents, at any age than to move on to algebra before that's done. And it's much MUCH better to have a really solid understanding of Algebra 1 than to move on before that's completely mastered. If that were all you did before graduation, your kid would have a better understanding of math than a ton of adults.... I'm not saying I recommend stopping with Algebra 1 :) -- only that the schedule is really not important. What's important is that all of those pieces are well understood. The rest of math in any direction builds on that foundation, and if those aren't solid, moving on won't help. And I'm not saying early is bad either... if a younger kid is absolutely solid on arithmetic, I'm not against trying Algebra, but I wouldn't push for it at any age without solid arithmetic skills. (I should throw in my commercial for problem solving here too... Not just plain arithmetic and simple algebra, but complicated story problems and handling the translation of real life situations into equations...) If your kid has done well in Primary Math, and is on track to start Discovering Math in 8th, I would say that you're perfectly "on schedule". Primary Math is an excellent foundation, both in the arithmetic and the problem solving sides of things, and if he has done well I have no doubts about his preparation. Because the secondary books are "Integrated Math" instead of separate Algebra and Geometry, the only awkwardness would be if you started at a US public school at 9th grade, having finished DM 1 (approximately half of Algebra 1 and half of Geometry). If there's a really high likelihood of that, you could re-order the chapters to get through all of Algebra 1 in a year and pick up the Geometry chapters in a second pass if the public school plans don't materialize. We did that with NEM, and it worked out fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

redsquirrel Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I think part of the question 'when should I teach algebra' is the unspoken "how do I know my student is ready for algebra". Some people seem very sure about it and others not so much. It's like knowing your student has entered the logic stage. If you have never seen it before, it can be hard to know if you are there or you should give some time or maybe a push is in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

AngieW in Texas Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 My two older girls have always been very good at math (except for the MUS fiasco with my oldest - took her one year to recover from it). They both did algebra over two years with two different programs. My oldest took algebra at the ps in 7th grade, but they really didn't DO algebra. She learned a lot about how to use a graphing calculator, but at the end of it, she couldn't actually DO any algebra without plugging it into the calculator. She returned to hs for 8th grade and did Jacobs Algebra. My middle dd was very ready to move on at the end of 6th grade, but she was very young for her grade (past the cutoff by a full month), so I started her in two different algebra programs with the intention of spending two full years on it. At the end of 7th grade, she decided that she liked Kinetic Books MUCH better than Jacobs and switched to using just Kinetic Books, so that's all she did in 8th grade. She finished in March of 8th grade and moved on to Jacobs Geometry. My youngest is not a math-whiz like my other girls and her dyslexia causes her some issues with math as well. She's in 8th grade this year and still working on arithmetic. I tried MUS Prealgebra with her last year (complete waste of time). I backed her up to Math Mammoth 5A for the summer. I'm going to try Lial's BCM with her again this fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Matryoshka Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 You will probably get a huge range of answers to this! I'm sure that some start algebra very early (3rd or 4th). And I know a girl IRL who is supposedly a junior in the local ps hs...she has yet to take algebra. Not sure how she can be classified as a junior...or how she is going to graduate. Our state requires 4 credits of math. My brother managed to graduate from high school without ever taking Algebra at all. :001_huh: His school only required 3 years of math, and I think he took Basic Math, Consumer Math and Pre-Algebra. He did end up taking remedial Algebra and beyond in college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Crimson Wife Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Back when I went through, my H.S. used to have students in the honors track take Algebra I in 8th and Calculus in 12th. Now the honors students do Algebra I in 7th, Calculus in 11th, and Post-AP Math in 12th (not 100% sure what's covered in this). My original plan was to do Algebra I in 7th as well. Now it looks like DD may be starting it in 6th. If she does, I may try to fill in the extra year with some of the AOPS courses like Intro to Counting & Probability and Intro to Number Theory. California mandates all 8th graders take Algebra I, but many (if not most) re-take it in 9th. A lot of schools in the state took their regular 8th grade math courses and slapped the "algebra" label on it to comply with the regulations but they're not true Algebra I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Matryoshka Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I answered 8th because that's when my older two will be taking it. It is more than likely that my younger dd will take it in 7th if she stays the course she is on now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

jcooperetc Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Algebraic thinking (generalizing about information) - as soon as they can get from concrete to symbolic thinking, i.e., using a mark on paper to represent something as opposed to needing fingers and math manipulatives to count Formal algebra formulas, definitions, graphing etc - depends on the kid, mathy kids around 6th grade, my language focused ones not until 9th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

jcooperetc Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I think part of the question 'when should I teach algebra' is the unspoken "how do I know my student is ready for algebra". Some people seem very sure about it and others not so much. It's like knowing your student has entered the logic stage. If you have never seen it before, it can be hard to know if you are there or you should give some time or maybe a push is in order. Maybe this should be another thread instead of a high jack of this one - but I agree with the knowing when they enter the various stages being a key to a lot of choices we make. My son moved on to logic about 9 weeks ago on a Tuesday at 4pm, lol. It was like, bam, all of a sudden there was an argument and discussion for ev-er-y-thing. OK, we are doing logic and algebra now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

KarenC Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 My middle dd probably won't be ready until late 7th grade or 8th grade. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

KarenC Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I have found that my dd was very well prepared for algebra, and I was pleasantly suprised at how well Singapore Math prepared her for geometry. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

mcconnellboys Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I didn't respond in the poll, because I thought it would just confuse things. My oldest is not math oriented at all. I stalled after Singapore 6, doing Saxon with him in seventh, then starting Videotext with him in eighth. He just was not ready to do algebra in seventh grade. Videotext has prealgebra built into the front end of it, so he got a little more of that after Saxon before he moved into algebra that eighth grade year. It is not that heavy on amount of work, but adequate for someone completely uninterested in math. Supposedly the first three modules (which each contain about 3-5 tapes, I think, haven't looked at them for a while) cover all of Algebra I. My younger son is more interested in math and more math adept. He was ready to start to play with algebra in sixth grade, and so I put him in a small group class with a tutor. It certainly wasn't necessary to do this, but I thought he was ready for it (and she agreed). He finished up Singapore 6 at home that year while doing algebra with her. He finished Algebra I work this year with her, while doing about half (first four chapters) of Russian Math 6 at home for drill and reinforcement. Since he only sees her for one hour a week, of necessity they had to move more slowly through the work. It is typical here for a lot of kids to take Algebra I in eighth grade, then geometry in ninth, and Algebra II in tenth. They can certainly still wait to take Algebra I in ninth, which used to be the typical high school sequence. However, if they do this, then they will only have twelfth grade to take a higher math (unless they could perhaps double up on geometry and Algebra II). That higher math would typically be pre-calc/trig. That would mean they wouldn't get to Calculus before college and a lot of schools like to see an attempt at this on the transcript, particularly for kids who are interested in math and science majors. If your child is not math/science oriented, then I wouldn't worry about this at all, unless he is trying to get into a prestigious college that looks for higher level math on the high school transcript.... Also, there's beginning to be more of a push for kids to take statistics in high school, too, as perhaps their senior year math, if they can get through Calculus prior to that time (typically by getting both Algebra I and geometry out of the way in middle school). Lots of the middle schools here also offer a two year algebra program for kids who need to go through it a little more slowly. Some kids therefore do Algebra I in seventh/eighth, then geometry in ninth. Others who are thought to be ready for algebra as sixth graders may do Algebra I in sixth/seventh, then geometry in eighth (or just do algebra in one year, during seventh, then geometry). There are various options in use here. All of this is simply to facilitate them being able to complete a Calculus class before they graduate, if they want/need to do that (and now, as I mentioned, statistics is starting to come into the picture, too). Some kids do regular Calculus as juniors, then take AP Calculus their senior years, also. So getting the basic algebra out of the way is just meant to help them getting into higher maths prior to college.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Colleen Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I was reading an older thread talking about one state that was mandating algebra for all 8th graders. Why? The math education in this country is seriously messed up. Yep. That's it in a nutshell. We've now started pushing algebra earlier, often to no avail because students either aren't ready for it and/or are rushed through it such that they don't gain a firm grasp of the subject before being pushed on to the next level of compartmentalization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I have one child who will start a book titled algebra in 8th grade and one who is scheduled to start in 7th. But this isn't a special plan on my part but rather continuing the sequence of math they have always done. It is really a balancing act of recognizing a child's abilities, challenging them and preparing them adequately for their future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Ali in OR Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) Twenty years ago I taught math at an excellent public high school in California. At that time, the highest math track was Algebra 1 in 8th grade which led eventually to BC calculus in 12th grade. Statistics was available as a 1 semester elective, usually taken in addition to AP calc senior year if at all. The next track down had Algebra 1 in 9th grade, and that track still led to calculus in the senior year, but AB calc instead of BC. You still received excellent math preparation (probably comparable to what I got in my rural CA school) if you started Algebra in 9th grade. I taught the honors geometry course to 9th graders. I also taught regular geometry to 10th graders. The honors track was taught at a higher, harder level. More emphasis on proof. It began with a month of symbolic logic proofs. Even kids who had been in honors math through middle school had to make a bit of a mental leap to understand proof--it wasn't easy for everyone, even at the honors level. 9th grade seemed to be about right for that--a year earlier there would have been far fewer students ready for that conceptual step. They could have handled an easier geometry class in 8th grade, but not the one that our faculty put together for honors level students. My experience leads me to think that Algebra 1 in 8th grade is sufficient and best for most students. And waiting until 9th grade isn't a catastrophe. There are a few outstanding math brains out there who really want to get as far as possible in math before college. But most students really don't have the love/interest/talent to be taking post-calculus courses in high school (I don't think of stats as post-calculus). Often kids who were advanced just quit math after calculus. In that case, there is really no reason to push math to younger years. I would argue that I can teach a better, more rigorous algebra class to 8th graders than to 6th graders. We can do harder problems, do the whole curriculum in a year, and show why/how things work at a higher level. I think kids are better served by a more rigorous algebra class in 8th grade than watered down algebra in 6th and 7th. I know that my very sharp honors geometry kids were just ready for the idea of proof in 9th grade--8th grade geometry would not have been the same course. As homeschoolers we get to do what's best for our individual students. By all means many will be ready for higher math earlier. But based on my experience at a very good school in the shadow of a great university (lots of professors' kids), most kids get all of the math they need/want if they start with a good algebra 1 course in 8th grade. We do not need to push it to younger years unless the student is clamoring for it. Edited June 21, 2011 by Ali in OR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

mom&nana Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The only one of my kids who's been through Algebra already was in Public School and she took Algebra 1 in 9th grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Crimson Wife Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 We do not need to push it to younger years unless the student is clamoring for it. What you're saying makes a lot of sense, but I have to wonder if having a bright student take Algebra I in 8th and Geometry in 9th when the new norm for the honors track is 7th & 8th puts him/her at a competitive disadvantage for college admissions. That was the reason why my alma mater shifted forward the honors track by a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Firestar Academy Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 well, some years ago, I was a math major in college. I studied to be an actuary. Personally, I took algebra 1 in 8th, alg 2 in 9th, geometry in 10th pre-calc in 11th AP calc in 12th got an almost perfect score on math SAT (we won't discuss the verbal section) I went on to maaaaany math classes in college, and a very successful (but short-lived) career that used my math ability. YMMV Robin in NJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

redsquirrel Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 In NY, with the regents system, there were a few kids who took algebra in 8th grade. There were enough mathy kids to make one class room of 8th graders and they took the regents in 8th grade. The rest of the kids took algebra in 9th, geometry in 10, what was called Trigonometry but is now called algebra 2/Trigonometry in 11th. It seems to be the same schedule with different names these days. I always assumed it would be fine to wait until 9th grade for my son to start algebra. I never considered starting in 7th grade. I figured if he was a math standout I might start him in 8th grade but were he to be anything less than stellar we would start in 9th. It wasn't until recently that I started feeling like 8th grade might be considered late for algebra. 9th grade sounds downright geriatric compared to some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Paisley Hedgehog Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 nm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

JudyJudyJudy Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 My son is well above average in math. We plan to do prealgebra in 7th grade (next year) and algebra in 8th grade. In my experience as a math teacher (in both middle school and high school), most students really aren't ready for algebra in 8th grade, but I think he'll be okay. If he were just average in math, I wouldn't even consider doing algebra before 9th grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Orthodox6 Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I suppose I would worry if one of my dc took Algebra 1 later than 9th grade; however, that is only because it likely would delay completing high school math sufficient for college entry. Sometimes, just sometimes, I sense that parents push a child to take Algebra 1 in 7th grade as a variation on "See what my child can do ?!" Occasionally, the child actually is ready for it. My knowledge of outside schools is from long ago: I was graduated from high school in 1973, from a large school in a major city. At that time, honors classes offered Algebra 1 for the 9th grade. Period. DH and I followed this "standard track". He went on for a Ph.D. in economics, and his jobs ever since have relied on extremely advanced mathematics. Taking algebra in the ninth grade is fine. This has worked for my dc, and two have gone on to college thus far. If one had been ready for the course in the 8th grade, that would have been fine, but not at all essential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

8filltheheart Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 ..and finally, is there a reason to really push for algebra earlier, if your child isn't particularly gifted/interested in math? I mean average in math, not behind... I do not believe there is any reason to push a child who is not naturally accelerated in math. I have had kids as young as 4th grade ready for alg, but most of my kids have taken MUS alg as pre-alg in 7th followed by Foersters alg in 8th (even my oldest who is very strong in math and is graduating as chemE in Aug). It didn't occur to me to accelerate my oldest back then. He was strong in all of his math and engineering courses, so not taking cal until 12th was not a hinderance. With my rising 10th grader, he would have been bored to tears not doing alg in elementary school. He will continue beyond cal in high school. My rising 7th grader took MUS's alg last yr as a 6th grader. She doesn't particularly like math, but she is very bright and math does come easy for her. She will probably not continue more advanced math beyond cal but will probably take AP statistics. Well, that was a long drawn out way of saying that cal in 12th is a good place even for kids going into STEM majors. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

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