I am an idiot: SAT2 & AP

[asta]

Or maybe I'm just an Aspie.

 

It *literally* never occurred to me (or my husband, or my kid) that high school kids would go through the (pain, extra studying, whatever) to take an AP (college level) course, take the AP exam (hopeful that they would score high enough to get college credit!), and then...

 

TAKE THE SAT II SUBJECT EXAM FOR A HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL COURSE IN THAT SUBJECT!!!!

 

How in God's name is the SAT II subject exam supposed to be a "standardized test representing how well a student knows ____ subject at the high school level" if high school students (we're talking smart, regular students w/o AP courses - because, I'm sorry - the whole world DOESN'T have access to AP courses, despite how it may look in the press or whatever) are taking the test with students who have completed a COLLEGE level course in the same subject?

 

And screw the "curve"!

 

This p!sses me off.

 

It's the PRINCIPLE of the thing. It's GAMING the system. If you want to take AP? Fine. Take AP. Study hard - they'll be a test. You want to take HIGH SCHOOL? Study hard - they'll be a test. It's called the SAT II subject exam.

 

I hate College Board.

 

End rant.

 

 

asta

[creekland]

It is my opinion that this is why many colleges are dropping requirements for SAT 2 tests. Their meaning has become rather worthless compared to the other tests as kids who do well on the AP also do well on the SAT 2.

[Teachin'Mine]

nm

Edited June 21, 2011 by Teachin'Mine

[Ester Maria]

Yeah, that is called manipulating the system. Especially if you know it will be graded on the curve. I feel your pain regarding the curve, it is stupid.

 

On the other hand, SATIIs are high school level content exams, which means that they cannot insert inappropriately difficult content (college level), so somebody with an outstanding preparation in high school content should not have issues even if there were other people with even more outstanding preparations which included college level content, because all will be judged on demonstrated high school knowledge. Now, whether that high school knowledge is only a subset of somebody's more advanced knowledge and thus automatically easier for them is... their issue, sort of. You can never have a situation with identical preparation of all candidates, whether an AP exam is involved or no, because some people have just studied more or more advanced content.

 

Being that both APs and SATIIs are under the control of the same organization, however, it would make sense, when possible, to rule that only one can "count" in the same subject area (whether the more advanced exam, or the one with the better score, as each participant decides).

 

I understand your vent, because it is not fair, but it is impossible to assure the equal preparation of all candidates.

[In The Great White North]

Unfortunately, some colleges require SAT II's, thus forcing AP students to take them.

 

SAT II's weren't even on our radar til we ran into Georgia Tech, which required several from homeschoolers, even if they had taken the AP test in the same subject area.

[Jen in NY]

Yes --- this.

 

It was not our intention at the beginning of the year to have our dd do both the AP Exam and the SAT II, but after realizing that some of the schools in which she is interested require 3 SAT IIs we decided not to let the opportunity to take the sat ii pass by. She will also be taking sat IIs in a few of her non AP subjects.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Unfortunately, some colleges require SAT II's, thus forcing AP students to take them.

 

SAT II's weren't even on our radar til we ran into Georgia Tech, which required several from homeschoolers, even if they had taken the AP test in the same subject area.

 

Exactly. When I was in high school, I realized rather late that a few of the select schools in Texas required SAT II tests. (This wasn't an issue back in Washington State, where I'd done most of my high school time. I hadn't even heard of SAT II.)

 

So here I was, a senior only a few months into chemistry and physics, taking the SAT II exam for each. Not a pretty sight.

 

I think that we also have to keep in mind the topic of whether AP courses are always worthy of the designation or if all students enrolled in them are prepared for that level of work. This has been the topic of a lot of discussion in the traditional schooling world. High enrollment in AP courses, but a less than satisfactory performance on the end of course AP test.

[regentrude]

It is my opinion that this is why many colleges are dropping requirements for SAT 2 tests. Their meaning has become rather worthless compared to the other tests as kids who do well on the AP also do well on the SAT 2.

 

I'm not sure I understand why that makes the SAT worthless - shouldn't a kid with excellent high school knowledge get an excellent score on the SAT2, regardless of whether he did AP or not, because the SAT2 covers only high school level material?

As long as the quality of high school classes varies so much, I don't blame the colleges for wanting a standardized exam to judge their applicant's level of preparation - and the exam they have to ask for IS of course the SAT and not AP, because they want the student to be prepared, not having done college work and test out.

[asta]

I'm not sure I understand why that makes the SAT worthless - shouldn't a kid with excellent high school knowledge get an excellent score on the SAT2, regardless of whether he did AP or not, because the SAT2 covers only high school level material?

As long as the quality of high school classes varies so much, I don't blame the colleges for wanting a standardized exam to judge their applicant's level of preparation - and the exam they have to ask for IS of course the SAT and not AP, because they want the student to be prepared, not having done college work and test out.

 

But that is my point - it isn't judging a high school applicant's level of preparation - maybe at one time it did (way back when, when they were called subject exams, maybe?) - but not now.

 

I went to school with some brilliant kids. Kids who, with or without "advanced classes" were just... SMART. They read, they were INTERESTED. These were the kids who were going to find their way to college no matter what. Oh, and yeah - their grades usually sucked - they were bored out of their skulls.

 

Those kids were "prepared" intellectually. We had AP back then - nobody gave it a second thought - half of the people (raises hand) didn't even bother to take the test - and yes, I know "things are different now".

 

All colleges aren't letting kids test out of classes with AP scores. They're giving "liberal studies credit", sure, but kids aren't getting to skip courses in their major or anything. Heck, that very point has been written all over this board!

 

I guess my gripe/point/whatever is that there are really smart high school kids who want to go to college. The progression is supposed to BE high school -> college for those smart enough to do so. It isn't supposed to be "be lucky enough to take college classes" while in high school, then take standardized tests based on high school standards -> be put on the top of the stack to go to college because YOU ALREADY WENT TO FLIPPING COLLEGE.

 

Let's face it: no matter how uneven "standards" are across school districts, a driven kid is a driven kid. They are going to read the whole World Civ book. They are going to go to the library and read a study guide to try to do well on a test. But there is NO way that what they are doing can compete with a kid who has ALSO taken the SAME subject at the college level. There is simply a different dynamic at work. Anyone who has ever taken a college class knows this: there is a different way of looking at subject matter. A different way of processing information. Heck, a different way of taking tests! This is why we have so many "getting our kids ready for college level work" threads!" It is a different mindset.

 

And, in my opinion, a significant advantage when it comes to the tests kids are taking to "present themselves" to LACs and universities.

 

Are these kids "fully" in the "college mode"? Nah - I doubt it. But they have a foot in a world that most kids taking these exams don't.

 

(all bets are off for homeschoolers; they usually aren't even on the world)

 

 

a

[regentrude]

Let's face it: no matter how uneven "standards" are across school districts, a driven kid is a driven kid. They are going to read the whole World Civ book. They are going to go to the library and read a study guide to try to do well on a test. But there is NO way that what they are doing can compete with a kid who has ALSO taken the SAME subject at the college level.

 

 

Maybe I'm dense: if the SAT2 tests only HIGH SCHOOL level material, why would it matter that some students have studied the subject at college level? The kids who want to can study for the SAT2 and cover everything that's on it - since there is no college content ON the test, shouldn't that suffice?

[Janice in NJ]

I think this might make more sense if you think "software" here.

 

Some colleges require X number of SAT II tests in addition to SAT/ACT scores. I don't know of a lot of schools (any?) that require AP tests.

 

So you have 30,000+ applicants. How are you going to "sort" them. Yup. Numbers. The computer system is designed to sort them according to the requirements that everyone has. What ever the formula, they need an SAT II number or the computer can't sort. And there is no accepted data for converting an AP number to an SAT II number. So the system just needs THAT SAT II number in order to shuffle the files.

 

I hate to sound so cynical, but I suspect THAT is the logic. Really. I think that's all there is to it.

 

And yes, the kids who have the AP/SAT II combo use their advantage to push their file toward the top. But after all, those are still high school kids. So they would be pushing the edge of the top score slots anyway. The SAT II test still covers the material it covers. If you have learned more than the test covers, you know more - so you are likely to do better. ;)

 

In a way, we all derive benefits from a capitalistic economy where demand drives productivity. I think that's just being reflected here. In a way, I found the college app process illuminating. My oldest is psyched to become the best that he can be, but he doesn't have the personality to "claw his way" to the top of a heap. He's more likely to boost the next guy than clamor over him. In the end, knowing that about yourself isn't such a bad thing.

 

Peace,

Janice

[asta]

If you have learned more than the test covers, you know more - so you are likely to do better. ;)

 

Peace,

Janice

 

THAT.

 

How can they say it is the "standard" they use that shows everyone in reference to everyone else ("we need to have something we can look at as a baseline to be able to weed out applicants") when the kids taking the dang test... ARRRGGG

 

I give up. I'm not making sense to anyone.

 

And my kid isn't even going to college in the US.

 

 

a

[Nan in Mass]

I can see what you mean. I was disconcerted, too. But the bottom line is that colleges want the most advanced students they can get. They have decided that testing is an efficient and fair way of determining that. The only subject test they can require every high schooler to take is the SAT2. Therefore, every high schooler takes the SAT2s. The college considers the students with best SAT2 scores, confident that they are getting the most advanced students. Voila. They don't care if those advanced students have already taken college physics 1. If enough students have already taken college physics 1, they can teach a much more advanced and interesting physics 1 class.

 

(They can't use the AP for this because it is designed to show the differences between the very top students (everyone else just gets a 0 or 1) and there aren't enough of those to fill all their freshman class. Well, some colleges manage to do just that. But not all high schools offer APs. Some colleges are trying to be fair or don't want to miss out on brilliant little suzy who happens to live beyond the back of beyond. That leaves most colleges with the SAT2s.)

 

-Nan

[Janice in NJ]

Oh. Don't get me wrong. I hear your frustration.

 

But maybe it's better to think of it in terms of sorting applicants, not weeding them out.

 

In some countries, kids are tracked before they get to high school. Not everyone is going to go to college.

 

In America we are more attached emotionally to egalitarian principles. Anyone can be anything they want to be. We like it. It makes us feel better about our world. It may not reflect reality, but it feels good to imagine that it does.

 

I suspect reality is a bit harder to deal with. (I hear you though. At least I feel pain about this although I can't be sure we feel the same pain.)

 

Harvard University, or Princeton, or Yale, or MIT has room at the bottom for kids who have scores in the lower 25th percentile as listed on their profile. (Yup. 25% of the kids actually sit in those score-slots.) But those seats aren't reserved for my kid. They are reserved for the legacy students, or minority students, or the athletes, or the kid whose parent can afford to pay the full bill, or the kid whose grandparents just donated a ton of money for some project or _____. There is no room for my kid if he fits into that range. It's just a product of the numbers again. The statistics say that my kid isn't as likely to fork over cash into the endowment fund later in life. He might, but he's not statistically a strong bet.

 

Is that fair? No. But Harvard isn't running a social service; they have different objectives. Understanding the system helps the process make more sense. Even if I don't like the system.

 

I am a college.

I want to continue to look competitive.

I have to post "the" numbers for the students for my Freshman class.

I am going to pick the kids with the highest numbers that I think I can entice to actually come to my school.

 

(Really. The system that we Americans have pushed for requires colleges to post their "numbers." We use those numbers to choose schools. So we can't really gripe when they use the same numbers to pick students.)

 

I can heartily recommend a book: Crazy U. You may not like the system when you get done reading it, but you will understand it more. When I realized that, as an American parent who is looking for the "best" for my kid, I might actually be the cause of the problem, it was news to me. Great book!

 

Peace,

Janice

 

P.S. I just re-read your response, asta.

Colleges aren't trying to be fair.

They are trying to be competitive.

...without looking like they are trying to be competitive because competition begets more marketing.

And marketing makes it looks like you are selling something instead of offering something.

If the American public suddenly realizes they are buying something when they spend money on a college education instead of receiving something, then things are going to get really tough for colleges.

It's better to maintain a noble, benevolent facade.

 

Reading this later .... the P.S. above sounds too cynical. I don't think colleges really want to play a cat and mouse game either. I think they are stuck in an unfair system as much as the parents. I can't recommend Crazy U enough. It really was a terrific read. Funny. Self-deprecating. I'm digressing....

 

About ten years ago, we were shopping for a used Suburban to pull a camper pop-up we were looking into purchasing. We found a three-year old model at a local dealer. As soon as we got there - with three kids in tow - the dealer immediately tried to steer us toward what he thought would clinch the deal. The truck had a DVD player mounted in the ceiling. He took one look at me, a gal with three little kids, and figured that TV was his biggest trump card. However - standard practice for me when buying a used car involves crawling around under it with a flashlight. I dress in jeans with my hair up in a pony-tail. I muttered a polite, "Hmm....", whipped out my flashlight, hit the pavement, and disappeared under the truck. Now I don't know a ton, but I have learned that you can learn a lot about a truck's past by crawling around under it. My dad has given me a list of things to look for. For example: accidents leave bread crumbs. In addition to spending time under the hood, you can tell a lot by lying on the pavement getting a solid look at what you are really buying.

 

The salesman didn't know what to do. He kept crouching down and asking me if I was OK.

He just didn't know what to do. "What are you looking for?"

"Are you OK?"

In utter confusion he kept saying, "It has a TV."

 

Finally, after crawling out from under the truck, while re-adjusting my pony tail and brushing off my back side, I politely but calmly re-adjusted the conversation. "I have a TV; I don't need another one. We are buying a truck."

 

From that point forward, we understood each other.

He let me focus on what I wanted to focus on.

It made the process so much easier.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Janice in NJ

[asta]

P.S. I just re-read your response, asta.

Colleges aren't trying to be fair.

They are trying to be competitive.

...without looking like they are trying to be competitive because competition begets more marketing.

And marketing makes it looks like you are selling something instead of offering something.

If the American public suddenly realizes they are buying something when they spend money on a college education instead of receiving something, then things are going to get really tough for colleges.

It's better to maintain a noble, benevolent facade.

 

Unfortunately for me, my kid figured it out.

 

Which is why he 1st refused to go to college at all, and then 2nd agreed to go, as long as we didn't send him to America.

 

This has been a stressful year. And we still have another one to go.

 

 

a

[Nan in Mass]

Be grateful he agreed to go, even if elsewhere. I couldn't get my oldest to agree to go at all.

[Janice in NJ]

OK. So I think we understand each other.

 

And yes, it can be disheartening until my kids and I realized that we wanted something colleges were selling; we just needed to narrow our choices more and expect more reasonable outcomes. Once we started shopping within our price range (financially and academically), it was easier to find a good match.

 

I try to think of it this way: If I want a NICE new pair of slacks, and I'm ready to spend some cash, I might be able to find what I'm looking for at Macy's. I'm unlikely to find something that fits me (price wise) at Nordstroms. I might, but it's more of a long shot.

 

Several years ago, I was lamenting the condition of my wardrobe. Dh commented, "The girls I work with all look nice, Jan. They have nice, stylish clothes. It can't be that hard. Maybe you're not shopping in the right stores." His tone was empathetic but a bit exasperated.

 

So I went out and shopped. I came home with a couple of beautiful outfits. And as I expected, he liked the more expensive ones better. Until his jaw hit the floor when I told him the tally on his "favorite" ensemble. (Yes, ladies. It is possible to buy a regular ole pair of slacks for $ 248. :confused: They cover a multitude of sins. You just feel like a superstar in them; they just make you feel special. I swear I walked differently in that pair of pants. There must be magic in that silky lining.)

 

"That's how they do it, babe. They look great because they spend mega-bucks." We got right back in the car and took the pricier stuff back. I settled for the expensive (for me $60 is a LOT to pair for a pair of lined dress slacks) but manageable outfit. It's still my "nice" outfit four years later. ;)

 

So for college, rather than skip the whole thing, we decided to shop for a good fit. It was a much more reasonable process. It felt a LOT less like playing the lottery.

Even though our "outfit" isn't from the Nordstrom window, in the end, we feel like we made out really well.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

Edited June 21, 2011 by Janice in NJ

[Brenda in MA]

I'm not sure I understand why that makes the SAT worthless - shouldn't a kid with excellent high school knowledge get an excellent score on the SAT2, regardless of whether he did AP or not, because the SAT2 covers only high school level material?

 

 

Yes, I think a kid with an excellent knowledge at a high-school level should get an excellent score on the SAT2, but often that does not happen due to the curving of these exams. The College Board designs its tests specifically so that the results will be roughly a bell-shaped curve. That is why these SAT2 exams (and the SAT for that matter) aren't completely reflective of the quality of the education a student receives. It would seem to me that there should be a body of knowledge that constitutes a high-school understanding of a subject -- say Chemistry or US History. Anyone who shows he/she knows this material very well should get a top score. It shouldn't matter if 50% of the kids taking the exam get the top score. If they know the material, they deserve that score.

 

What goes on with these SAT2 exams is that since you generally have a very capable contingent of students taking these exams, and if you're the College Board and you don't want 50% of the students to make the top score, you've got to do some things to the test to make sure that all of the well-prepared students do not get a top score. What CB seems to do is to ask the questions in such a way that they are intentionally confusing. They also tend to offer a very, very broad test and ask some questions on material that is not particularly advanced but is obscure. They also set up the test so there will be time pressure, thus causing stress in some students that can reduce their performance.

 

I read a book a couple of years ago about how the SAT is designed. Someone here recommended it, and I wish I could remember the title. After reading that book, I definitely have a more cynical view of the SAT.

 

I know nothing about the exams used in European schools. Are they anything like the SAT or do they truly test a student's knowledge of the content? Just curious.

 

Brenda

[asta]

What goes on with these SAT2 exams is that since you generally have a very capable contingent of students taking these exams, and if you're the College Board and you don't want 50% of the students to make the top score, you've got to do some things to the test to make sure that all of the well-prepared students do not get a top score. What CB seems to do is to ask the questions in such a way that they are intentionally confusing. They also tend to offer a very, very broad test and ask some questions on material that is not particularly advanced but is obscure. They also set up the test so there will be time pressure, thus causing stress in some students that can reduce their performance.

 

 

Brenda

 

 

And this is where a kid with experience in a college course has an advantage.

 

So, no, CB isn't putting "non-high school level material" on the test. What they are doing is putting the material on in such a manner that kids who haven't been exposed to higher ed (or haven't been coached on "how to take the SAT" - at which point, what the heck?) are at an automatic disadvantage.

 

 

a

[Nan in Mass]

Asta, I lost respect for the SAT2s when I was in high school. I had refused to do biology and chem went in one ear and out the other despite having gotten straight As and I had to take a science SAT2. I had just begun physics. My father told me I had the math so he could teach me enough physics formula to take the test in a few hours. I did better than any of the students who had taken physics the year before. If the test had been a good test, I shouldn't have been able to do that. Now this was the old physics test. It has probably been rewritten since then, but that is a good part of the reason we opted to do community college courses rather APs or SAT2s. One of my son just took the SAT. The other may need to take the SAT2, but if so, he'll do it after the CC class and after a session with the study guide. I still don't expect him to do well on it, but hopefully he'll do well enough to let his other attributes look attractive.

It is a game with unfair rules.

-Nan

[creekland]

I've seen where a lot of schools have dropped SAT 2 requirements in the past few years - some very recently as per a list that was posted this past spring, but is no longer up to date as per college web sites and directly asking adcoms.

 

Does anyone know of any school that has added SAT 2 requirements? (As in, didn't have them within the past 5 - 10 years and now does?)

 

I still think that they are on their way out in general, but there definitely are a few schools who still require them.

 

Stellar stat kids (or higher (AP) level kids) do well on them, so most high scores are redundant in many cases.

[Ester Maria]

What CB seems to do is to ask the questions in such a way that they are intentionally confusing. They also tend to offer a very, very broad test and ask some questions on material that is not particularly advanced but is obscure.

But, Brenda (and Asta), that is nothing new nor, in my view, inacceptable. If we are talking about higher grades, we are always talking about asking nuances, intricacies, questions worded in a tricky manner. Demonstrating a basic knowledge of all content is a D-level. A more thorough understanding of it with a greater number of connections is a C-level. Bs and As? They are exactly about nuances, application, being able to outsmart those tricky questions (not necessarily because you have college experience - but because you know the content so darn well that they cannot confuse you), information contained on the margins and in the footnotes of the textbooks... It is no fun to speak of the top grades if one remains on the type of reproduction of basic knowledge required for a C/D, only on a greater sample of questions - which is why they word the test the way they do. (Grades are only illustrative here, I know they use number point scale.)

 

When I first started researching SATII samples to see whether sometime in the future we may consider those, I was frankly amazed at how well I thought a sample Hebrew test was made. It was exactly the type of test I would have made, in such circumstances (mind you, those are not ideal - standardized testing is extremely limited in what it can test in the first place, but if I were forced to work within that scheme, I really would come up with something similar), and it tests exactly the type of high school content I would expect.

 

I do not think that students without college classes experience are necessarily disadvantaged, because a higher level of knowledge or of general academic skills could have been obtained even without those - in my limited experience, from what I gathered now, questions are fairly normal, only some are more tricky, which is exactly what I would expect anyway.

Maybe we could speak of concrete examples of how worded questions are and whether we can see any type of initial disadvantage there?

Edited June 21, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Mommyfaithe]

It is my opinion that this is why many colleges are dropping requirements for SAT 2 tests. Their meaning has become rather worthless compared to the other tests as kids who do well on the AP also do well on the SAT 2.

 

This really irks me because for a SAT2, I can sign my kid up myself...and he can go take the test. For an AP, I have to jump through hoop after hoop trying to find the poor kid a seat! AND, I have to deal wit hostile school personnel who really do not FEEL like helping out the homeschooler....UGH!

Faithe

[Nan in Mass]

The other SAT2 I took was French. It put me exactly where I ought to have landed. Maybe it varies from subject to subject? Does anyone familiar with more than one subject have any idea of how the subjects vary. (I might have taken the math one, too. I can't remember. If I did, it probably placed me where I should have been as well. My math class's SAT math scores came out stratified about the same way I thought they should, judging by who had the answers in class the fastest.

-Nan

[asta]

But, Brenda (and Asta), that is nothing new nor, in my view, inacceptable. If we are talking about higher grades, we are always talking about asking nuances, intricacies, questions worded in a tricky manner. Demonstrating a basic knowledge of all content is a D-level. A more thorough understanding of it with a greater number of connections is a C-level. Bs and As? They are exactly about nuances, application, being able to outsmart those tricky questions (not necessarily because you have college experience - but because you know the content so darn well that they cannot confuse you), information contained on the margins and in the footnotes of the textbooks... It is no fun to speak of the top grades if one remains on the type of reproduction of basic knowledge required for a C/D, only on a greater sample of questions - which is why they word the test the way they do. (Grades are only illustrative here, I know they use number point scale.)

 

When I first started researching SATII samples to see whether sometime in the future we may consider those, I was frankly amazed at how well I thought a sample Hebrew test was made. It was exactly the type of test I would have made, in such circumstances (mind you, those are not ideal - standardized testing is extremely limited in what it can test in the first place, but if I were forced to work within that scheme, I really would come up with something similar), and it tests exactly the type of high school content I would expect.

 

I do not think that students without college classes experience are necessarily disadvantaged, because a higher level of knowledge or of general academic skills could have been obtained even without those - in my limited experience, from what I gathered now, questions are fairly normal, only some are more tricky, which is exactly what I would expect anyway.

Maybe we could speak of concrete examples of how worded questions are and whether we can see any type of initial disadvantage there?

 

I agree with you EM, but...

 

The US educational system isn't set up that way.

 

If the SAT2 test were being given to German students? Heck yeah! Go for it! Nuance away! Get down with your Buddenbrooks! But the US is a soundbite nation. I don't agree with it, I think it sucks, but the majority (NEA, anyone?) has decided that "the educational system" will be presented THUS. So to then turn around and say "oh, but, by the way, you are only worthy of moving forward in society [because the US has determined that only college graduates can get ahead] if you pick up these nuances we haven't bothered to even mention to you" or - WORSE - give you the skill set to discover on your own...

 

I find that disingenuous.

 

 

a

[Gwen in VA]

Many of the SAT2's are taken by kids who have NOT taken AP classes.

 

For example, both math SAT2's do not in any way reflect knowledge of calculus, and the high schools I am familiar with encourage kids to take the level 1 after algebra 2 and the level 2 after precalculus.

 

While undoubtedly some students take AP Lit (English) in 11th grade and then take the SAT2 in literature, AP lit is usually a capstone course taken in 12th grade, so most students would NOT have take AP lit when they take the SAT2 in literature.

 

As long as the quality of high school classes varies so much, I don't blame the colleges for wanting a standardized exam to judge their applicant's level of preparation - and the exam they have to ask for IS of course the SAT and not AP, because they want the student to be prepared, not having done college work and test out.

 

:iagree:

 

And some students do score extremely well without having taken the relevant AP course first.

[creekland]

The other SAT2 I took was French. It put me exactly where I ought to have landed. Maybe it varies from subject to subject? Does anyone familiar with more than one subject have any idea of how the subjects vary. (I might have taken the math one, too. I can't remember. If I did, it probably placed me where I should have been as well. My math class's SAT math scores came out stratified about the same way I thought they should, judging by who had the answers in class the fastest.

-Nan

 

I'm not sure if SAT 2 tests were around when I was in high school (early to mid 80s). If so, no one I knew took them. We had the NY Regents tests and AP. In AP we were only allowed up to 3 courses and only senior year. I graduated 2nd in my class of 189 and got accepted everywhere I applied (highest caliber was probably Duke). Kids below my ranking (but still smart!) went to MIT and Ivies + top LACs. We were a small city (pop approx 16,000) public school in an overwhelmingly rural area.

 

Maybe that's why SAT 2's aren't such a priority for me (tradition!). If a school my boys wanted required them, of course they'd take them. But we've asked in person and via e-mail, and so far, none have needed them nor suggested we take them to better their chances.

 

I know things are far more competitive now with AP and cc classes, but except for a few colleges, I just haven't seen it with SAT 2. For most places, those are optional.

[Brenda in MA]

But, Brenda (and Asta), that is nothing new nor, in my view, inacceptable. If we are talking about higher grades, we are always talking about asking nuances, intricacies, questions worded in a tricky manner.

 

The problem I have with this is that writing a test in this way just basically turns it into a veiled IQ test. If the goal is to sort the students with the highest IQs, then this kind of test is what one should use. If the goal is to sort out the students who have mastered certain material at a prescribed level, then I would contend that the SAT2 alone is not going to do that.

 

I think it's pretty telling that students with sky-high SAT scores also tend to have sky-high SAT2 scores, even if they haven't had an AP course. I would also contend that a student who does well, but not exceptionally, on the SAT will also only do well on the SAT2, no matter how much training he/she has had in a particular subject area.

 

The problem I have with basically selecting kids by IQ is that often the most successful professionals are not the ones with the highest IQs. They are the ones who have a good, solid background in their area of expertise, and they also are hard-workers and have good interpersonal skills. Before homeschooling my kids, I worked in a technical field for a number of years. The colleagues of mine that were the most effective in their jobs were not necessarily the brightest ones. A certain level of technical competence was necessary to do an effective job, but in the working world, the interpersonal side was also very, very important.

 

Another indication that the SAT is not an effective indicator of college success is that studies have shown that scores can be improved by intensive tutoring. I found this recent article in Business Week interesting.

 

China's Test Prep Juggernaut

 

Brenda

[regentrude]

I know nothing about the exams used in European schools. Are they anything like the SAT or do they truly test a student's knowledge of the content? Just curious.

 

 

I can only speak for Germany.

The important exams in Germany are the high school finals after 12th grade in the college prep track schools, called the Abitur. They test knowledge. They are open ended questions only. (I have never taken a single multiple choice exam) Each student is tested in several subjects. Math, German,science, foreign languages, elective. Some subjects are mandatory, some can be chosen. There are written AND oral exams.

ETA: In my home state, written exams are mandatory in math, German, one foreign language and a science, plus one elective.

The written German exam is a long essay exam about a literature topic. The oral foreign language exam has a presentation and a dialogue with another student.

These exams give a much better picture than a multiple choice test.

The final grade is a complicated combination of all Finals grades in the test subjects and the class grades for all courses of the last two years.

Edited June 21, 2011 by regentrude

[debbiec]

Yep. We have found that out as well!

[Jane in NC]

I've seen where a lot of schools have dropped SAT 2 requirements in the past few years - some very recently as per a list that was posted this past spring, but is no longer up to date as per college web sites and directly asking adcoms.

 

Does anyone know of any school that has added SAT 2 requirements? (As in, didn't have them within the past 5 - 10 years and now does?)

 

 

NCSU and UNC-CH are among the schools that use the SAT math exam for placement purposes. Granted, a student can take an in house placement test. But I am wondering if other colleges are happy to use these subject tests for placement in foreign language or math.

 

I have not heard of any school dropping the SAT subject requirement. I do think that the growing popularity of the ACT does shift some of the testing requirements. When my son applied to Boston University, for example, he had to submit either the ACT with writing or the SAT and two SAT subject tests.

[JFSinIL]

Unfortunately, some colleges require SAT II's, thus forcing AP students to take them.

 

SAT II's weren't even on our radar til we ran into Georgia Tech, which required several from homeschoolers, even if they had taken the AP test in the same subject area.

 

yup - DS only took the subject test for US. History because he needed a SAT II for one college...he had already taken the AP test.

[justasque]

FWIW, most kids take most of their AP exams their senior year. Because of that, most of their AP scores are not available until AFTER they have applied to colleges, gotten accepted, and chosen where they will go. So they are of no use in the admissions process in terms of testing, only in terms of showing that the student is taking challenging courses. (And, of course, they can often be converted to college credit, but that takes place later in the process.)

 

We found that most schools ds applied to didn't require SATIIs, but some of the more selective schools did, so we had to scramble at the last minute to fit in the math one.

[Teachin'Mine]

I'm not sure if SAT 2 tests were around when I was in high school (early to mid 80s). If so, no one I knew took them. We had the NY Regents tests and AP. In AP we were only allowed up to 3 courses and only senior year. I graduated 2nd in my class of 189 and got accepted everywhere I applied (highest caliber was probably Duke). Kids below my ranking (but still smart!) went to MIT and Ivies + top LACs. We were a small city (pop approx 16,000) public school in an overwhelmingly rural area.

 

Maybe that's why SAT 2's aren't such a priority for me (tradition!). If a school my boys wanted required them, of course they'd take them. But we've asked in person and via e-mail, and so far, none have needed them nor suggested we take them to better their chances.

 

I know things are far more competitive now with AP and cc classes, but except for a few colleges, I just haven't seen it with SAT 2. For most places, those are optional.

 

Back in our time, they were called Achievement Tests. And few took them in our school too. There was no classroom prep, that was all directed towards the Regents, but some of us studied on our own and took one or more. I really don't even remember the tests being talked about by teachers at all.

[Laura in CA]

Back in our time' date=' they were called Achievement Tests. And few took them in our school too. There was no classroom prep, that was all directed towards the Regents, but some of us studied on our own and took one or more. I really don't even remember the tests being talked about by teachers at all.[/quote']

 

I can heartily recommend a book: Crazy U. You may not like the system when you get done reading it, but you will understand it more. When I realized that, as an American parent who is looking for the "best" for my kid, I might actually be the cause of the problem, it was news to me. Great book!

 

But, Brenda (and Asta), that is nothing new nor, in my view, inacceptable. If we are talking about higher grades, we are always talking about asking nuances, intricacies, questions worded in a tricky manner.

...

 

When I first started researching SATII samples to see whether sometime in the future we may consider those, I was frankly amazed at how well I thought a sample Hebrew test was made. It was exactly the type of test I would have made, in such circumstances (mind you, those are not ideal - standardized testing is extremely limited in what it can test in the first place, but if I were forced to work within that scheme, I really would come up with something similar), and it tests exactly the type of high school content I would expect.

 

 

 

Let's face it: no matter how uneven "standards" are across school districts, a driven kid is a driven kid. They are going to read the whole World Civ book.

 

I haven't read the whole thread, but found myself saying :iagree: and nodding along with many of the posts, especially those I've quoted above. When I was in high school (late 70s/early 80s) I knew about "achievement tests" only because the schools I was applying to (Stanford, Caltech, etc.) required them. So I took three in one morning, walking in with absolutely NO prep, no idea what would be on the tests. But even though there were some tricky (I like Ester Maria's term "nuanced") questions, I did quite well on the tests I felt prepared for, and not so well on the one I didn't (Latin!). I guess from my personal experience, I found them, as some here are saying, a good measure of mastery of high-school-level content. I guess I take a fairly benign view of the SAT2s ... I'm very glad hsers can show subject mastery on rigorous, standardized tests such as SAT2s & APs (since my son will not have an "objective" GPA like schooled kids). (And if in fact these tests measure IQ and test-taking savvy more than content ... well, we can't blame unis for wanting the brightest kids, can we?)

 

~Laura

Edited June 22, 2011 by Laura in CA

[Mom2boys]

OK. So I think we understand each other.

 

And yes, it can be disheartening until my kids and I realized that we wanted something colleges were selling; we just needed to narrow our choices more and expect more reasonable outcomes. Once we started shopping within our price range (financially and academically), it was easier to find a good match.

 

I try to think of it this way: If I want a NICE new pair of slacks, and I'm ready to spend some cash, I might be able to find what I'm looking for at Macy's. I'm unlikely to find something that fits me (price wise) at Nordstroms. I might, but it's more of a long shot.

 

Several years ago, I was lamenting the condition of my wardrobe. Dh commented, "The girls I work with all look nice, Jan. They have nice, stylish clothes. It can't be that hard. Maybe you're not shopping in the right stores." His tone was empathetic but a bit exasperated.

 

So I went out and shopped. I came home with a couple of beautiful outfits. And as I expected, he liked the more expensive ones better. Until his jaw hit the floor when I told him the tally on his "favorite" ensemble. (Yes, ladies. It is possible to buy a regular ole pair of slacks for $ 248. :confused: They cover a multitude of sins. You just feel like a superstar in them; they just make you feel special. I swear I walked differently in that pair of pants. There must be magic in that silky lining.)

 

"That's how they do it, babe. They look great because they spend mega-bucks." We got right back in the car and took the pricier stuff back. I settled for the expensive (for me $60 is a LOT to pair for a pair of lined dress slacks) but manageable outfit. It's still my "nice" outfit four years later. ;)

 

So for college, rather than skip the whole thing, we decided to shop for a good fit. It was a much more reasonable process. It felt a LOT less like playing the lottery.

Even though our "outfit" isn't from the Nordstrom window, in the end, we feel like we made out really well.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

 

 

Love this! :D

[creekland]

Back in our time' date=' they were called Achievement Tests. And few took them in our school too. There was no classroom prep, that was all directed towards the Regents, but some of us studied on our own and took one or more. I really don't even remember the tests being talked about by teachers at all.[/quote']

 

I might vaguely recall Achievement tests if I get the feather duster out for my brain neurons, but I still don't have any memories of myself or my peers taking any. Someone might have though, but definitely without any fanfare. I know I didn't need any for my applications. It all makes more sense with what you (and others) have written about the "old days."

[justasque]

I remember taking them (1980-ish). IIRC, you could stay after the SAT and take them, and you didn't really need to decide in advance about it, so I did. It wasn't a separate thing to arrange, if you did them after the SAT. I think my college did require them; a math and a science and an English, perhaps. I didn't prep for them, nor did I prep for the SAT, or even go to bed early the night before.

[Nan in Mass]

No - they weren't things that you prepped for. It was my father, not the school, that had the idea of prepping for the physics test. We had to sign up beforehand, but we were told what to sign up for. I guess guidance told us. LOL and here I thought they were useless.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

In the schools we've been near, there have been a couple AP tests commonly taken after junior year (ex. US History and Environmental Science). The students are taking the exam in the spring at the conclusion of the course, whatever grade they are when they take the course.

[Teachin'Mine]

I might vaguely recall Achievement tests if I get the feather duster out for my brain neurons, but I still don't have any memories of myself or my peers taking any. Someone might have though, but definitely without any fanfare. I know I didn't need any for my applications. It all makes more sense with what you (and others) have written about the "old days."

 

It's amazing how much feather dusting I've been doing upstairs ever since my dd started high school. I try to remember what courses were like and testing and all. I often see people lamenting how homeschoolers aren't privy to the great guidance kids get in ps, but unless those neuron connections are really buried, we didn't have that in ps either. The sum total of my experience with the guidance department was to hand in to them the schedule of my classes which I put together from the options available. I think they also sent my transcript when requested to do so. Maybe others actually got some guidance, but I sure didn't. That's probably part of why I'm glued to this forum as I want to try to do a bit better than that for my dd. The advice and info here is invaluable!!! :)

[OLG]

Yes, College Board is one huge racket and the colleges are playing along. Just look at the number of 'elite' schools that now require multiple SAT2's that they never did before. My cynical self believes that this is due to colleges not wanting to hand out 'free' credit for a good AP score and lose that tuition and now, lo and behold, they can require SAT2's. Imho,it is time for some serious competition for the College Board monopoly!!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Or maybe I'm just an Aspie.

 

It *literally* never occurred to me (or my husband, or my kid) that high school kids would go through the (pain, extra studying, whatever) to take an AP (college level) course, take the AP exam (hopeful that they would score high enough to get college credit!), and then...

 

TAKE THE SAT II SUBJECT EXAM FOR A HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL COURSE IN THAT SUBJECT!!!!

 

How in God's name is the SAT II subject exam supposed to be a "standardized test representing how well a student knows ____ subject at the high school level" if high school students (we're talking smart, regular students w/o AP courses - because, I'm sorry - the whole world DOESN'T have access to AP courses, despite how it may look in the press or whatever) are taking the test with students who have completed a COLLEGE level course in the same subject?

 

And screw the "curve"!

 

This p!sses me off.

 

It's the PRINCIPLE of the thing. It's GAMING the system. If you want to take AP? Fine. Take AP. Study hard - they'll be a test. You want to take HIGH SCHOOL? Study hard - they'll be a test. It's called the SAT II subject exam.

 

I hate College Board.

 

End rant.

 

 

asta

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't a student taking an SAT Subject Test getting a 200-800 point score that is based on the number of correct answers that student got, not graded on a curve? At least that is how I'm understanding the explanation of the scoring on the exam.

 

Excerpt from link:

We do a statistical analysis to make sure the test is an accurate representation of your skills. The unscored section of the test also helps us ensure the test is fair. Questions in the unscored section are not factored into your SAT score.

 

In our statistical analysis, equating adjusts for slight differences in difficulty between test editions and ensures that a student's score of, say, 450 on one edition of a test reflects the same ability as a score of 450 on another edition of the test. Equating also ensures that a student's score does not depend on how well others did on the same edition of the test.

 

So I can understand that depending on the population who took the test a given score (say a 650 or a 700) might move around on the percentage. But there is still a base score to reference.

 

It seems like that allows the Subject Test to be used for two purposes. It can demonstrate mastery of a certain subject and it can rank the student's mastery of the subject against other students (nationwide and statewide).

 

Looking at the score to percentile ratings from 2009, it seems like the quirkiest is within the foreign language tests, probably because you have a set of native/speak at home students who are getting 800 and then a set of non-native 2-4 year students who are getting lower scores.

[Gwen in VA]

I'm not sure if SAT 2 tests were around when I was in high school (early to mid 80s).

 

SAT2's weren't, but Achievement tests certainly were. The honors kids in my (public) high school were expected to take certain ones after certain classes. I took 5 total -- even in the dark ages of the very early '80's!

 

And the colleges I applied to did expect Achievement test scores. (No, I don't remember how many were required.......)

 

So there is nothing new about SAT2's except a name change.

[creekland]

SAT2's weren't, but Achievement tests certainly were. The honors kids in my (public) high school were expected to take certain ones after certain classes. I took 5 total -- even in the dark ages of the very early '80's!

 

And the colleges I applied to did expect Achievement test scores. (No, I don't remember how many were required.......)

 

So there is nothing new about SAT2's except a name change.

 

 

I'm guessing these might have been less of a deal for us in NY as we had the Regents test for each major subject and languages. At the time, I believe just CA and NY had similar types of tests. Every college bound student took every Regents test for their academic subject and those were on our transcripts. Therefore, I'm guessing colleges were satisfied with those and we didn't really need Achievement tests. None of the 6 colleges I applied to required any from me and they were quite varied colleges.

 

We all grow up thinking our experiences are "normal," but I'm thinking this is one that might have depended upon location.

 

In any event, I'm glad that so far none of the schools my boys are applying to require them (Harvard would have been the only exception had middle son wanted to consider them. Yale does not require them if one has the ACT. All the rest just plain said, "no, they aren't needed.")

[In The Great White North]

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't a student taking an SAT Subject Test getting a 200-800 point score that is based on the number of correct answers that student got, not graded on a curve? At least that is how I'm understanding the explanation of the scoring on the exam.

 

Excerpt from link:

We do a statistical analysis to make sure the test is an accurate representation of your skills. The unscored section of the test also helps us ensure the test is fair. Questions in the unscored section are not factored into your SAT score.

 

In our statistical analysis, equating adjusts for slight differences in difficulty between test editions and ensures that a student's score of, say, 450 on one edition of a test reflects the same ability as a score of 450 on another edition of the test. Equating also ensures that a student's score does not depend on how well others did on the same edition of the test.

 

Grading on a curve is a statistical analysis of a test. The only discussion I have ever heard of the bell curve involved statistics. They are most definitely graded on a curve.

 

The last line directly contradicts the first.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Grading on a curve is a statistical analysis of a test. The only discussion I have ever heard of the bell curve involved statistics. They are most definitely graded on a curve.

 

The last line directly contradicts the first.

 

I understood it more to refer to the practice of considering the effects of particular questions on a particular test. If one test is poorly worded, it can make the exam from one date less of a valid comparison.

 

If it were a matter of deriving the score from the percentage, then wouldn't an 800 always relate to a 99%? That doesn't seem to be the case.

 

It looks to me more like the percentages are taken from the scores, sometimes with odd results (like the hard percentage scale for Asian foreign languages - where native speakers would have a distinct advantage, or in the biology scores, where students with multiple years of biology may sway the percentages).

[snowbeltmom]

My son took his first AP class this year and the corresponding SAT II. When he began reviewing for the SAT II, we were surprised to see that some of the topics tested on the SAT II had not been discussed in his AP class. So in addition to studying for the AP exam, he was also studying additional topics for the SAT II. He felt that the SAT II exam was more difficult than the AP test.

 

I hate all the hoop jumping, but many of the colleges on his list at this point require SAT II's.

 

Fwiw, he felt that Sparknotes (which is free online) and Barron's prepared him well for the SAT II.

 

We don't know yet how he did on the AP exam. For a fee, the "not for profit" :glare: College Board will release his scores around July 1st over the phone; we will be waiting until they arrive in the mail a few weeks later. I feel like the College Board gets enough of my money as it is.

[MicheleinMN]

Yes, College Board is one huge racket and the colleges are playing along. Just look at the number of 'elite' schools that now require multiple SAT2's that they never did before. My cynical self believes that this is due to colleges not wanting to hand out 'free' credit for a good AP score and lose that tuition and now, lo and behold, they can require SAT2's. Imho,it is time for some serious competition for the College Board monopoly!!

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Ester Maria]

The problem I have with this is that writing a test in this way just basically turns it into a veiled IQ test. If the goal is to sort the students with the highest IQs, then this kind of test is what one should use. If the goal is to sort out the students who have mastered certain material at a prescribed level, then I would contend that the SAT2 alone is not going to do that.

This is an interesting point of view, I suppose I hardly ever looked at it from that perspective... But yes, in essence, there is something IQ-test-ish about any kind of advanced content testing, because you want to check not only the factual knowledge, but also the ability to manipulate the information, and that kind of manipulation is pretty much the idea behind the concept of IQ.

 

I suppose I always took for granted that this is how the tests "should" look like (written the way that factual knowledge alone brings you a D, not an A), but I suppose it can have quite a chilling effect if one is not used to it.

I suppose I always viewed it as different skills in question: knowing material for an A or a B involves not, or at least not exclusively, a larger base of factual knowledge, but a different set of analytical skills, application skills, etc., on what is largely the same knowledge base, so I would expect some questions to be worded the challenging way. I guess it rarely occured me, if ever, that that is essentially a type of veiled IQ testing, I tended to view it as a "normal" thing and "normal" skills if one knows the content really well. It is IQ-test-ish if you come with factual knowledge alone and have to "improvize" on the test, but if you come with a thorough understanding, maybe not so IQ-test-ish? Not sure.

 

Mind you, I still find that multiple choice testing is nonsensous in any case (though yes, I get why it is very practical).

 

Anyone willing to share concrete examples of which questions they think are too IQ-test-ish? Maybe I am missing something.