Please give me the strength to accept the things I cannot change?

[5LittleMonkeys]

What would you say about a dc like this...

 

 

Hates being told what to do. Doesn't like being told she is wrong...ever. If you correct her she takes it as a personal insult. Hates having to learn anything that she deems as school related, even if previously she had been interested. Doesn't like sharing and gets upset when she is required to. Has a skewed sense of fairness; always expects the biggest, the best, the most of everything even if it means someone else gets nothing. If you call her on bad behavior or point out that she has been unfair or mean to someone she first acts like she doesn't know what you are talking about and then tries to play the martyr and laments about what a terrible person she is. "Forgets" anything and everything that she is asked to do...has to be reminded repeatedly to accomplish a simple task but never forgets anything that she wants to do. Will never willingly take the initiative to do a chore or schoolwork even though she knows it needs to be done; she always waits until she has been told to do it. Trys to be funny when others are being serious. When someone is joking or kidding around with her she ramps up to the point of annoying and then doesn't know when to stop even when others start getting angry. Expects something in return for everything she does in the household, for the family. All of this could very well happen before lunch on a bad day.

It is coming to a head lately. All of the other dc, including the 5yo are starting to complain more and more about her and are purposefully trying to avoid being around her.

 

So, are these things behavioral issues that I can eventually change or are they more personality traits that I just have to deal with? I feel a little odd posting about this because I have in the past posted advice about dealing with the behavior of difficult dc. This dc doesn't really mis-behave so to speak. When she does I have pretty good methods for dealing with it. I'm frustrated because these things that I've listed above don't seem to be getting better, even after years of talking and teaching and modeling. Dealing with her day after day is making me weary. At the end of the day I feel mentally exhausted and there are some days that I honestly feel that I've been mentally abused from all of her intense emotions. I know there are those of you out there that have dc that behave the same way. I'd like to know how you've successfully dealt with a dc like this.

 

If nothing else, thanks for letting me vent.:blush:

[dcjlkplus3]

:grouphug:

a bit of that sounds like one of my daughters and I am hoping that it is a phase and that there is an end somewhere down the road.

[kiana]

Um, you know ...:blushing:

 

I went through this phase myself and didn't get out of it until I was 20 and got a job and moved out.

 

Best of luck. I hope your dd is more tractable than I was.

 

P.S. By the time I hit 25, it was amazing how much smarter my mother was than when I was 15. It did end. :P

[Peela]

Oh, I relate. My son is /was like that. I think having the son/mother dynamic made it harder in some ways- he was very manipulative of me- but easier in others- a certain adoration of each other that made me keep going and forgive him over and over.

 

He is 15 now...and he is better. Much better. In fact, he is very wise, and quite mature in some ways. And in others..no, he is not generous. He still wants recognition for everything he does, and doesn't help out around the house voluntarily, and wants a medal if asked to . That character trait is still there. But he can play games now without flipping out if he is losing. He was generous with his girlfriend when he had one (ulterior motives, but at least he did know how to be!). he behaved really well at other peoples' places. Other people have always told me what a lovely kid he is- he helps out, empties the garbage at other peoples' places! Just not at home. Because he is a charmer.

 

We have always joked about our little demon child. He has been so demanding and unreasonable, from birth, if thats possible. But I have to keep reminding dh- now that he is 15- the mischief he is getting up to as a teenager is normal, typical teenage stuff. And its not hurtful to anyone else- its just naughty. He's not heartless, although at home one would think so- he doesn't hurt people.

 

The sense of unreasonableness is still there but no where near as bad.

 

I would say he has been well parented, and accepted. We have loved him unconditionally even though he has been so, so difficult. We always felt he needed extra love- I think difficult kids often do. I have a saying- lucky we love him so much, or we would have got rid of him a long time ago! He has been such a challenge.

 

I will say- he has taught me so much about patience and unconditional love. If I had only had my dd, who virtually reared herself, I think I would be a different person- much less able to love, much less empathic.

 

So, in answer to your question, it's very individual how to deal with difficult kids. Many really don't respond well to severe punishment etc They need a lot of understanding and patience, and seeing things from their perspective, because even though it is irrational frequently, it's still their perspective. My son didn't respond to reason until he was a teenager.

He always needed a lot of attention and he got it. But I only have 2 children, and the other was exceedingly patient.

 

But yes...he is a beautiful young man. Those issues he had when younger have definitely matured in time and no longer dominate, although his basic character is the same.

 

In the end....I really do think love is the answer. It sounds kind of trite to say it...but its the only way to stay sane, to not build resentment, to be patient, to keep going, and to feel that you are doing the right thing in the moment. It keeps me open and flexible to looking at how to respond to him, without getting to caught in a particular mindset. I have been strict at times, not at others- I try to respond with intelligence in the moment rather than pre conceived ideas and beliefs. My son needs a lot of space and freedom nowadays, and I give him all that I can within reason. He used to be so clingy as a small kid.

 

Its not easy but I also come form the perspective that there is no mistake here. These kids have something to give, and we have something to give them.

[Sara in AZ]

So, in answer to your question, it's very individual how to deal with difficult kids. Many really don't respond well to severe punishment etc They need a lot of understanding and patience, and seeing things from their perspective, because even though it is irrational frequently, it's still their perspective.

 

In the end....I really do think love is the answer. It sounds kind of trite to say it...but its the only way to stay sane, to not build resentment, to be patient, to keep going, and to feel that you are doing the right thing in the moment. It keeps me open and flexible to looking at how to respond to him, without getting to caught in a particular mindset. I have been strict at times, not at others- I try to respond with intelligence in the moment rather than pre conceived ideas and beliefs. My son needs a lot of space and freedom nowadays, and I give him all that I can within reason. He used to be so clingy as a small kid.

 

 

Peela this is so beautifully put! I'm having a lot of trouble with my 6 year old son right now and I know I need to step back and just love him instead of taking everything so personally. Sometimes I think I should be more strict and then sometimes I think being too strict just pushes him away. Thank you for reminding me to be flexible and appreciate who he is.

[aggieamy]

Um, you know ...:blushing:

 

I went through this phase myself and didn't get out of it until I was 20 and got a job and moved out.

 

Best of luck. I hope your dd is more tractable than I was.

 

P.S. By the time I hit 25, it was amazing how much smarter my mother was than when I was 15. It did end. :P

 

Oh my gosh. I was thinking that it sounded a lot like me when I was MUCH younger too. Gah. Glad I'm not the only one. I promise that I grew out of it about college years I think. Anyway, eventually she'll become a someone you enjoy being around - it looks like Kiana and I are proof of that.

[QueenCat]

Are these attitudes new? Did they start with the changes in the home, with your mil moving in? If so, I'd say just give her time, with gentle correction. If not, then I'd explore her motivation much more, and find ways to deal with the issues a little more aggressively, but still with a gentle heart.

[5LittleMonkeys]

he behaved really well at other peoples' places. Other people have always told me what a lovely kid he is- he helps out, empties the garbage at other peoples' places! Just not at home. Because he is a charmer.

 

We have always joked about our little demon child. He has been so demanding and unreasonable, from birth, if thats possible.

 

We always felt he needed extra love- I think difficult kids often do. I have a saying- lucky we love him so much, or we would have got rid of him a long time ago! He has been such a challenge.

 

All of the above describe our situation exactly.

 

 

 

In the end....I really do think love is the answer. It sounds kind of trite to say it...but its the only way to stay sane, to not build resentment, to be patient, to keep going, and to feel that you are doing the right thing in the moment. It keeps me open and flexible to looking at how to respond to him, without getting to caught in a particular mindset. I have been strict at times, not at others- I try to respond with intelligence in the moment rather than pre conceived ideas and beliefs. My son needs a lot of space and freedom nowadays, and I give him all that I can within reason.

 

Really wise words Peela...thank you. The part about not building resentment is something I'm struggling with right now. I have given the same talk to her so many times about being generous, thinking of others, treating others with kindness and respect...I have to believe that when she behaves in a contradictory manner, that she is purposefully trying to be annoying. I know she isn't...but it feels that way when I go through the same thing day after day after day.

 

.

 

Those of you who said that you were similiar and grew out of it give me hope although she has been exhibiting these traits since birth. One can hope though.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Are these attitudes new? Did they start with the changes in the home, with your mil moving in? If so, I'd say just give her time, with gentle correction. If not, then I'd explore her motivation much more, and find ways to deal with the issues a little more aggressively, but still with a gentle heart.

 

No, what I describe isn't new at all. She has exhibited these types of attitudes and behaviors since she was very, very little. There have been times when things have been better and times that are worse. I will admit that my patience are probably thinner right now due to MIL moving in...I know I should take that into consideration when dealing with dd.

[Aggie]

:grouphug: Yes, it sounds like many kids, teens, and even adults we've all known and loved.:grouphug:

 

Barring some serious, real, personality disorder, though, I believe she can change.

 

Start with one behavior, the one that you hate the most. (If she's one of the older 2 girls, I'd work on 2-3 behaviors at the same time.) Take her out for coffee or ice cream and talk to her about it. Put on a little show so she can see how she looks to other people when she acts this way. (You may want to plan ahead to go to a place you'll never want to go back to. :)) Ask her how she would react if everyone else in the family acted this way. How would her dad's boss react if her dad acted this way at work? Give her some real life examples of how her world would be if people acted this way. (The store, church, etc) This can be a funny exercise, too!

 

Then tell her and show her how she should and will behave wrt this one behavior. Why it's important. Have some serious consequence set in place so she knows what will happen next time. In our home (and society), one's actions usually have consequences. Let her practice the new behavior several times.

 

Give her a code word or hand signal that you will give to her when her behavior is about to go too far. This lets her know that you know what she's doing, and it gives her a chance to stop before she gets in real trouble. This is particularly good for the joking/kidding times when she may be too caught up in the moment to realize what she's doing.

 

If her behavior is this bad all the time, I think I would drop her school and work on just character issues for a while. Y'all have any plans for the summer? I'd keep her closecloseclose so I could immediately correct and give her the affirmation she needs right away.

 

One natural consequence of acting certain ways is that people just don't want to be around that kind of person. Perhaps your other dc need a day or so where she's not around them. It's a pain in the patooty to make it work, but it can be very effective. I separated all 3 of our dc one time for the entire day. They couldn't be in the same room together. They had to eat alone, do school in solitary, work on chores individually. One day. Is your dd an extrovert or introvert? Does she enjoy being around her siblings or does she need alone time?

 

She may, like pps, grow out of it. But why should the entire family have to put up with those behaviors for the next umpteen years? Unless she has a personality, neurological, or some other disorder, her actions are a choice.

 

Looking back over your post, could she be an Aspie? Have you had her evaluated? I'm not familiar with this at all, but the social aspect (joking, etc) kind of rings a bell. I'm sure others here will be much more help in that area.

 

I've never claimed to be a good writer, but this post is very disjointed. I hope you can get something out of it.:grouphug: And I hope you see your dd's behavior change.

[WTMCassandra]

Thank you for being brave enough to post this, Aime. And thank you Peela for those wise words. I have a child on a similar spectrum, although not as extreme as this. Unfortunately, these are the very children who also, perversely, need much more repetition of training for much longer than most children. This is *very* wearying. Sometimes I persevere (again, under less strenuous conditions!) by picturing the child's future spouse and saying silently that I am doing this for that spouse so that my child will not self-destruct the marriage.

[5LittleMonkeys]

:grouphug: Yes, it sounds like many kids, teens, and even adults we've all known and loved.:grouphug:

 

Barring some serious, real, personality disorder, though, I believe she can change.

 

Start with one behavior, the one that you hate the most. (If she's one of the older 2 girls, I'd work on 2-3 behaviors at the same time.) Take her out for coffee or ice cream and talk to her about it. Put on a little show so she can see how she looks to other people when she acts this way. (You may want to plan ahead to go to a place you'll never want to go back to. :)) Ask her how she would react if everyone else in the family acted this way. How would her dad's boss react if her dad acted this way at work? Give her some real life examples of how her world would be if people acted this way. (The store, church, etc) This can be a funny exercise, too!

 

Then tell her and show her how she should and will behave wrt this one behavior. Why it's important. Have some serious consequence set in place so she knows what will happen next time. In our home (and society), one's actions usually have consequences. Let her practice the new behavior several times.

 

Give her a code word or hand signal that you will give to her when her behavior is about to go too far. This lets her know that you know what she's doing, and it gives her a chance to stop before she gets in real trouble. This is particularly good for the joking/kidding times when she may be too caught up in the moment to realize what she's doing.

 

If her behavior is this bad all the time, I think I would drop her school and work on just character issues for a while. Y'all have any plans for the summer? I'd keep her closecloseclose so I could immediately correct and give her the affirmation she needs right away.

 

One natural consequence of acting certain ways is that people just don't want to be around that kind of person. Perhaps your other dc need a day or so where she's not around them. It's a pain in the patooty to make it work, but it can be very effective. I separated all 3 of our dc one time for the entire day. They couldn't be in the same room together. They had to eat alone, do school in solitary, work on chores individually. One day. Is your dd an extrovert or introvert? Does she enjoy being around her siblings or does she need alone time?

 

She may, like pps, grow out of it. But why should the entire family have to put up with those behaviors for the next umpteen years? Unless she has a personality, neurological, or some other disorder, her actions are a choice.

 

Looking back over your post, could she be an Aspie? Have you had her evaluated? I'm not familiar with this at all, but the social aspect (joking, etc) kind of rings a bell. I'm sure others here will be much more help in that area.

 

I've never claimed to be a good writer, but this post is very disjointed. I hope you can get something out of it.:grouphug: And I hope you see your dd's behavior change.

 

 

I do a lot of what you describe above. Over and over and over. I agree about the family not needing to have to go through all of her behavior all of the time so I do make sure every one gets a break from her occasionally. I do this under the ruse that she gets to go spend the night at my sister's house. I make it out like it is a treat for her but it's actually a treat for the rest of us.

 

As an example of her behavior: I told her last night that she could come with me to the grocery store if she got up, showered, dressed, tidied her room and emptied the dishwasher before I was ready to go at 9:30. Well it is 15 minutes until I'm ready to leave and she is just getting out of the shower. I told her she wouldn't be able to go and she is pitching a fit. She is in tears telling me how unfair I'm being, begging me to take her and saying she will do the other things as soon as we are back home. I asked her if she set her alarm and she said she did but then went back to bed. She is telling me that it isn't her fault that she fell back asleep. (NOTHING is EVER her fault.) Now, because she is upset with me she will treat everyone else in the house poorly. She will snap and yell, be grumpy and pick on the two younger ones. My oldest asked if I could just go ahead and take her so that everyone wouldn't have to put up with her. So, I gave her the choice of being nice or staying in her room until I get back. I know that she will do neither and have a million excuses as to why so I will have to enforce a consequence when I get back. This child is 12...my 8 and 5 year olds behave better than this. In fact the 8yo wanted to go to but I told her no and she was perfectly fine with it.

 

 

Uugh, I'm frustrated and angry. I need to get past these emotions so I can deal with her constructively. Right now I don't even want to be in the same room with her. In the moment she gets so emotional and winds my emotions up so much that I can't think clearly as to how to proceed and I end up reacting. I don't yell at her but I end up trying to reason with her while she is wound up and it just isn't effective at all.

 

Well, I'm off to get my groceries...thanks everyone so far for listening and understanding.

[saraha]

I have a dc that can get just so overwhelming to the rest of the family. What helps EVERYONE in our household, is a daily quiet reading time. Everyone is in their own room/space, being quiet. Littles nap, big ones do something QUIET and I usually take a shower! It gives us all a break from each other and also acts like a "light at the end of the tunnel" when I need one. "Only 45 minutes until quiet time!" 95% of the time, this time apart helps everyone relax and we are ready to face each other again.

I have also used this quiet time as a chance to talk to whoever is needing me, without siblings trying to eavesdrop or add to the conversation.

I agree with the other posters that there is hope she will grow out of it, I was really annoying and tough to be around too, until someone I respected at my first "real" job pointed out a behavior I really needed to change, and suddenly I became much more aware of how I presented myself.

It can really be difficult to keep resentment from building up between your children. Those feelings of why does she get so many chances/ so much attention, when I am doing everything right. Right now, I just try to make special one on one time to just let the kids vent to me privately (about whatever, not just about their sibling) and try to brainstorm ways to deal with things for them. Is there a way that you can encourage your difficult child to do random nice things? Maybe like a secret santa sort of thing? I found that my dc was more willing to be nice or generous or giving when they thought it was their idea.

Take care of yourself!

[amo_mea_filiis.]

As an example of her behavior: I told her last night that she could come with me to the grocery store if she got up, showered, dressed, tidied her room and emptied the dishwasher before I was ready to go at 9:30. Well it is 15 minutes until I'm ready to leave and she is just getting out of the shower. I told her she wouldn't be able to go and she is pitching a fit. She is in tears telling me how unfair I'm being, begging me to take her and saying she will do the other things as soon as we are back home. I asked her if she set her alarm and she said she did but then went back to bed. She is telling me that it isn't her fault that she fell back asleep. (NOTHING is EVER her fault.) Now, because she is upset with me she will treat everyone else in the house poorly. She will snap and yell, be grumpy and pick on the two younger ones. My oldest asked if I could just go ahead and take her so that everyone wouldn't have to put up with her. So, I gave her the choice of being nice or staying in her room until I get back. I know that she will do neither and have a million excuses as to why so I will have to enforce a consequence when I get back. This child is 12...my 8 and 5 year olds behave better than this. In fact the 8yo wanted to go to but I told her no and she was perfectly fine with it.

 

 

She truly sounds like a mix of my kids who are both on the autism spectrum.

 

In your example above, it sounds like she isn't yet ready to do these things alone.

 

Mine both have problems with transitions. I have to gently remind dd numerous times that we're doing something different right now.

 

Picture charts help with the flow of things, but I still tell her she needs x amount of time to do certain things so she can plan. If she wants to take a shower before school and has a list of other things, I'll tell her what time she has to get up and I'll remind her of that time in the morning. Same in the evening; If she wants to put off her responsibilities until later, she only has until x time because it will take her x to get it done and she has to go bed by 8:00.

 

Your dd would likely benefit from different wording of things. Saying things like "if you choose..." has helped my ds a bit. An example would be, "if you choose to go back to sleep, you will not have time to complete your responsibilities."

 

On my dd's get up and go chart, it is worded to put full responsibility on her (but I know she's not ready yet). It says "Did I brush my teeth? Do I have on clean clothes? Is my bed neat?" etc.

[5LittleMonkeys]

I've researched autism and aspergers and she doesn't fit the description at all. The one thing that I think she may be is ADHD, predominately inattentive type. She exhibits all the traits on the lists. That does explain the forgetfulness, especially for those tasks that she finds tedious. It also explains why she loathes, and can't maintain focus on schoolwork but can concentrate on art, her own projects, crafts, building things, etc. However, it doesn't explain the selfishness, the manipulation, the skewed sense of fairness, the lack of responsibility for her actions...all of those things are just her personality I suppose; or lack of maturity. Regardless, all of it combined makes raising her challenging and exhausting.

 

I suppose I need to research more about the Inattentive type and possibly be able to get a better handle on how to cope with those issues and then maybe the rest might fix itself. Testing isn't an option because our insurance won't pay for it and we can't pay out of pocket. Unless I could get the testing and therapy through the government it just isn't in the cards for us right now.

 

Here are some ideas I've come up with for handling some of the most pressing issues right now:

 

1. Instead of me telling what needs to be done regarding household chores and responsibilities give her a chart. This takes my verbal "commands" out of the picture.

 

2. Ask her to assign a time frame or specific time for completing her tasks.

 

3. Don't engage in arguments with her...EVER. Just walk away.

 

4. Don't try to reason with her when she is upset. State what I need to say and then walk away.

 

5. Give her attention first in the morning - even get up earlier than everyone else so I can work one on one with her with no distractions at all.

[WTMCassandra]

However, it doesn't explain the selfishness, the manipulation, the skewed sense of fairness, the lack of responsibility for her actions...

 

Actually, on a fairly recent ADHD thread, someone mentioned that these traits can go hand in hand with ADHD. I can't find the thread right now, sigh.

 

All I can say is that my inattentive ADD'er also struggles with the above traits. I don't know if that makes you feel better or not. :lol:

[Unicorn.]

Does she have problems sleeping? She sounds a lot like my AD/HD dd. My dd didn't sleep as an infant. Has never been much of a sleeper. I took her in for a proper AD/HD diagnosis and possible ODD. Neuropsych told me to give her Valerian root at bedtime. Apparently she never gets a full cycle of sleep. We put her on something called "Power to Sleep PM" by Irwin Naturals. It has a tiny amount of melatonin (which helps you fall asleep, but not stay asleep), Valerian root, hops, passion flower,... and I forget what else. It's like having a whole new person in dd's body! She still has some attitude, but hey, she's almost 13. Now it's like having a normal, hormonal pre-teen instead of an aggressive alien being! HTH

[5LittleMonkeys]

Actually, on a fairly recent ADHD thread, someone mentioned that these traits can go hand in hand with ADHD. I can't find the thread right now, sigh.

 

All I can say is that my inattentive ADD'er also struggles with the above traits. I don't know if that makes you feel better or not. :lol:

 

Actually yes, it does make me feel better. The idea that her irritating behavior might be a symptom of something she can't control is better than thinking that she does it on purpose.

 

Does she have problems sleeping?

 

No, she doesn't have sleeping problems. I would say that she averages about 9 hours a night. She could probably sleep for 11 or 12 if I let her. I just asked her if she wakes up a lot at night and she said she doesn't.

 

 

 

Here's another example of her behavior:

 

I took her and two of my other dc to Chuck E. Cheese tonight for a friends birthday. Before we even started with the games she asked if I could bring her back with a friend of hers that is going to spend the night next week. I told her I would think about it but wouldn't make a decision until the day her friend was coming over. She started obsessing about it. Asked me probably 10 times in the coarse of 20 minutes whether or not I thought I might be more likely to say yes or no, if we did go what time would it be, how many tokens would I get for them, if I could let her know sooner...it just went on and on until I finally had to get firm with her and tell her that if she asked again the whole deal, including the sleepover, was going to get cancelled. Of coarse then she got all doe eyed and acted like she didn't know what on earth she had done wrong. About 30 minutes later she used up all her tokens (all the dc had gotten the same amount of tokens) and she asked me if I would buy more for her. I said no and she told me how unfair that was. I asked her why she felt it was unfair (I know I should have just ignored her) and she said because she used hers up before any one else did so she should get more.:confused:

 

Ugh, the poor thing seems to spend more time being upset than she does being happy.

[Peela]

Here's another example of her behavior:

 

I took her and two of my other dc to Chuck E. Cheese tonight for a friends birthday. Before we even started with the games she asked if I could bring her back with a friend of hers that is going to spend the night next week. I told her I would think about it but wouldn't make a decision until the day her friend was coming over. She started obsessing about it. Asked me probably 10 times in the coarse of 20 minutes whether or not I thought I might be more likely to say yes or no, if we did go what time would it be, how many tokens would I get for them, if I could let her know sooner...it just went on and on until I finally had to get firm with her and tell her that if she asked again the whole deal, including the sleepover, was going to get cancelled. Of coarse then she got all doe eyed and acted like she didn't know what on earth she had done wrong. About 30 minutes later she used up all her tokens (all the dc had gotten the same amount of tokens) and she asked me if I would buy more for her. I said no and she told me how unfair that was. I asked her why she felt it was unfair (I know I should have just ignored her) and she said because she used hers up before any one else did so she should get more.:confused:

 

Ugh, the poor thing seems to spend more time being upset than she does being happy.

 

My son has that obsessive trait too. Once he is fixated on something, he finds it hard to let go. I have used distraction over the years- it breaks the fixated thought process. In the end though...it is also a trait that allows a person to really be total about what they are doing- if its what they want to be doing. Also....many times, he does get fixated and he does get what he wants. He wanted a snake- he saved the money, he convinced both of us parents through long debate, he got his dad to help him shop around- he got his snake (our initial response was no way). He gets things that way- often things we initially say no to, but then eventually realise there is no real harm, he is intent, and he is paying...he gets it. I don't think it is all a bad trait. I call him a manifestor- because he does manifest what he wants.

 

The "not fair" thing has been very strong. You just do what you do- and let her be unhappy. She will eventually mature to the point she can pull herself out of it and see things from other peoples' perspective. If she can't now, she can't...ds was the same- I would stay calm, try and keep my sense of humour because he was often so unreasonable it was humorous...and just be gently firm. Ds has largely grown out of that. one.

[justamouse]

I've researched autism and aspergers and she doesn't fit the description at all. The one thing that I think she may be is ADHD, predominately inattentive type. She exhibits all the traits on the lists. That does explain the forgetfulness, especially for those tasks that she finds tedious. It also explains why she loathes, and can't maintain focus on schoolwork but can concentrate on art, her own projects, crafts, building things, etc. However, it doesn't explain the selfishness, the manipulation, the skewed sense of fairness, the lack of responsibility for her actions...all of those things are just her personality I suppose; or lack of maturity. Regardless, all of it combined makes raising her challenging and exhausting.

 

 

1. Instead of me telling what needs to be done regarding household chores and responsibilities give her a chart. This takes my verbal "commands" out of the picture.

 

2. Ask her to assign a time frame or specific time for completing her tasks.

 

3. Don't engage in arguments with her...EVER. Just walk away.

 

4. Don't try to reason with her when she is upset. State what I need to say and then walk away.

 

5. Give her attention first in the morning - even get up earlier than everyone else so I can work one on one with her with no distractions at all.

 

Actually, yes, that does describe ADHD. They are so self focused, they have NO idea how what they do feels to anyone else.

 

Your list? The bolded? Remember them every day. When you engage them, you become the one who is wrong. You cannot engage them.

 

If you can go for therapy, go. Especially at this age with her. It's a crucial age. If not for her-than for you so you can learn how to deal and get some help yourself. It's rough dealing with it and having someone to listen and give you tools is a very helpful thing.

[silliness7]

Actually yes, it does make me feel better. The idea that her irritating behavior might be a symptom of something she can't control is better than thinking that she does it on purpose.

 

 

 

No, she doesn't have sleeping problems. I would say that she averages about 9 hours a night. She could probably sleep for 11 or 12 if I let her. I just asked her if she wakes up a lot at night and she said she doesn't.

 

 

 

Here's another example of her behavior:

 

I took her and two of my other dc to Chuck E. Cheese tonight for a friends birthday. Before we even started with the games she asked if I could bring her back with a friend of hers that is going to spend the night next week. I told her I would think about it but wouldn't make a decision until the day her friend was coming over. She started obsessing about it. Asked me probably 10 times in the coarse of 20 minutes whether or not I thought I might be more likely to say yes or no, if we did go what time would it be, how many tokens would I get for them, if I could let her know sooner...it just went on and on until I finally had to get firm with her and tell her that if she asked again the whole deal, including the sleepover, was going to get cancelled. Of coarse then she got all doe eyed and acted like she didn't know what on earth she had done wrong. About 30 minutes later she used up all her tokens (all the dc had gotten the same amount of tokens) and she asked me if I would buy more for her. I said no and she told me how unfair that was. I asked her why she felt it was unfair (I know I should have just ignored her) and she said because she used hers up before any one else did so she should get more.:confused:

 

Ugh, the poor thing seems to spend more time being upset than she does being happy.

 

This conversation reminds me of my dd. It really gets under my skin. I've started answering her repeat questions by saying "I've already answered that question. What was my answer?" She stared at me with a blank look the first time until I demanded that she tell me what the answer was I ALREADY gave. It's slowly starting to sink in. I've also had to repeatedly define Pestering to my dd, and tell her that it is very rude. This dd of mine also needs lots of extra attention...hmmm...Is it your oldest dd or your 2nd oldest? Mine is 2nd oldest. I find the Seconds to be a bit challenging. Maybe because I'm a First. I understand the perfectionistic, overachieving, introvert. Both my Seconds (boy and girl) are whiny, clingy, needy, manipulative, and extroverted. It's WEIRD!

[Corraleno]

Aime, I have a similar kiddo (and DH!), and I was a bit like this myself as a kid (at least in terms of being strong-willed), and I would encourage you to not take her behavior personally or see it as a character flaw. As hard as it is to parent these kids, I believe it's actually a lot harder to BE them, and as Peela said, they really need all the love and patience we can possibly muster. They often grow up to be really wonderful, tenacious, successful people.

 

I'll address some of the behaviors individually:

 

Hates being told what to do. Doesn't like being told she is wrong...ever. If you correct her she takes it as a personal insult. ... If you call her on bad behavior or point out that she has been unfair or mean to someone she first acts like she doesn't know what you are talking about and then tries to play the martyr and laments about what a terrible person she is.

Honestly I don't believe this is manipulation; some people just see things in black & white — either everything is right with the world, or there's a ripple in the space/time continuum and we're all gonna diiiiiiiieeeeee! Both my DH and my DS (who are VSL/ADD/intense people like your DD) react this way to criticism. No matter how mild, constructive, or well-intentioned the criticism may be, they hear it as "you're a totally worthless, defective human being." I have had many conversations where I make a comment which is met with...

DS/DH: "Yes, I know, I'm a stupid idiot who doesn't deserve to live!!!"

Me: "Um, no, I just said you left your socks on the living room floor again." :confused:

 

"Forgets" anything and everything that she is asked to do...has to be reminded repeatedly to accomplish a simple task but never forgets anything that she wants to do...

 

I told her last night that she could come with me to the grocery store if she got up, showered, dressed, tidied her room and emptied the dishwasher before I was ready to go at 9:30. Well it is 15 minutes until I'm ready to leave and she is just getting out of the shower. I told her she wouldn't be able to go and she is pitching a fit. She is in tears telling me how unfair I'm being, begging me to take her and saying she will do the other things as soon as we are back home. I asked her if she set her alarm and she said she did but then went back to bed. She is telling me that it isn't her fault that she fell back asleep.

One of the biggest epiphanies for me, in dealing with both DS and DH, was that I was only looking at half of the VSL thing — the visual part. With VSLs like your DD and my DS, we focus on the visual part because it's easy to conceptualize the "verbal vs visual" part, and to tailor their education accordingly. But the other half of being a VSL — the sequential vs spatial part — is IMO what has the biggest impact on daily life. The epiphany for me was in realizing that the difference in "wiring" is not just thinking in images vs words, it's that the way their lives and thoughts are organized is spatial not sequential or linear or temporal. They live very much in the "here and now" and they don't organize their thoughts or actions into lists or sequences, with links between past and present and future actions.

 

If my alarm goes off and I'm tired, I can think through a whole sequence of events: if I sleep for an extra 20 minutes, it means I will have to skip either the shower or breakfast (are there any muffins left that I could grab on the way out?), and I'll have to get the kids ready quickly (do I know where everyone's shoes and coats are?), etc. Then I can decide how much extra time I can stay in bed or whether I need to get up now. My DS and DH simply can. not. think that way. Almost everyone I know who is like DS and DH has maybe 3 "time units" they recognize: "5 minutes" (which can actually be anything from 5 minutes to an hour), "an hour or so" (which equals anywhere from 1-3 hours) and "later" (which might mean tonight or next year). Anything that takes less than an hour falls into the "5 minutes" category, even if it has taken half an hour every. single. time. they've ever taken a shower / gotten dressed / driven to the post office / whatever. My DH is 40 and I cannot tell him "be ready in an hour" because he will leave everything until 5 minutes before we need to be in the car — and then he will be upset that I'm mad at him for making us late, as if he couldn't possibly have known that getting ready would take more than 5 minutes! DH and DS both need checklists and/or reminders at each step of a multi-step process. They have no sense of time or ability to prioritize.

 

I told her I would think about it but wouldn't make a decision until the day her friend was coming over. She started obsessing about it. Asked me probably 10 times in the coarse of 20 minutes whether or not I thought I might be more likely to say yes or no, if we did go what time would it be, how many tokens would I get for them, if I could let her know sooner...it just went on and on until I finally had to get firm with her and tell her that if she asked again the whole deal, including the sleepover, was going to get cancelled. Of coarse then she got all doe eyed and acted like she didn't know what on earth she had done wrong. About 30 minutes later she used up all her tokens (all the dc had gotten the same amount of tokens) and she asked me if I would buy more for her. I said no and she told me how unfair that was. I asked her why she felt it was unfair (I know I should have just ignored her) and she said because she used hers up before any one else did so she should get more.:confused:

This is actually part of the same problem — there is no past or future, just how they feel right now this minute. She wants to know about her friend right now; asking her to wait a few days is like asking her to wait until she's 20 — that's how it feels to her. The fact that all the kids had the same number of tokens half an hour ago is irrelevant — everyone has more than her right now and that feels unfair.

 

I'm not saying that it's rational or reasonable — but that is how it feels to these kids. Telling them that their feelings are wrong doesn't work, telling them that they're being selfish or unreasonable just gets translated into "you're a terrible person for feeling what you feel," which immediately puts them into defensive mode.

 

When DS feels something is unfair, I say "OK, I can understand why you might feel that way if you just look at what's happening this minute, but let's look at the big picture..." With the Chuck E. Cheese tokens, I would explain that I can understand why she would feel bad that everyone else is still playing when she has no more tokens, but since she played her games more quickly than the others, it isn't really unfair, just unfortunate. So how can we solve this? Maybe next time you can divide your tokens into four piles and only use one pile every 15 minutes, so they will last an hour. Or maybe you could choose games that cost fewer tokens or that provide longer play per token. Etc.

 

Sometimes I feel like DS and DH live on a separate planet — and I know they live in their own private time zones! I've found that it works much better if I try to see things from the perspective of their planet first, and then explain to them how things work here on Earth, lol. Validating how they feel, even if it seems totally irrational to me, helps prevent that spiral of defensiveness and resentment.

 

Jackie

[5LittleMonkeys]

He gets things that way- often things we initially say no to, but then eventually realise there is no real harm, he is intent, and he is paying...he gets it. I don't think it is all a bad trait. I call him a manifestor- because he does manifest what he wants.

 

.

 

Yes, I would have to say that she, on occasion, when she takes the time to really think about a situtation, sometimes can convince me to see or do things her way. I actually don't mind when she presents a case to sway my decision and in fact encourage my dc to hold firm to what they believe is right or to an idea or plan that they think is worthwhile. Hopefully as she gets older this will be more the case instead of just the nagging and whining that she uses now. Maybe I can start putting the ball in her court and telling her that if she wants to change my mind about something she needs to think about it and present a clear and logical case.

 

Actually, yes, that does describe ADHD. They are so self focused, they have NO idea how what they do feels to anyone else.

 

Your list? The bolded? Remember them every day. When you engage them, you become the one who is wrong. You cannot engage them.

 

If you can go for therapy, go. Especially at this age with her. It's a crucial age. If not for her-than for you so you can learn how to deal and get some help yourself. It's rough dealing with it and having someone to listen and give you tools is a very helpful thing.

 

Well, that would explain why, when she really steps over the line or hurts someones feelings and gets called on it she reacts with surprise first. I've always wondered if she really didn't realize what she was doing or if she was just playing ignorant. I'll look at those situations differently from now on.

 

 

Jackie - there is just too much of what you wrote that resonates with me for me to copy and address individually. It really is as if you know my dd personally. Thank you for taking the time...again... to try to let me see things through her eyes.

 

 

 

You know months ago I posted about this girl and even went so far as to make an appointment to get her evaluated but when she found out she became so distraught that I cancelled it. I was, for awhile, trying to be more patient with her and trying to deal with her differently because I did suspect that she had some variation of ADHD and I knew she was VSL but somewhere along the way I guess I slipped up and forgot who I was dealing with. Maybe it was just easier to treat her like the other dc, or maybe she pushed my buttons one to many times and I started to rebuild the wall I had been working on. We've had a lot going on; FIL dying, MIL moving in with us (which isn't going as grand as we had all hoped). She (dd) probably isn't any worse than she ever was; it's probably me who has become more sensitive or insensitive as the case may be, to her behavior.

 

So, here I stand at this fork in the road that I've been to before. One way makes a loop right back to this point (and I'm tired of the scenery on this route) and the other way heads off in a new direction. Evaluations, testing, therapy...how do I do all of those things without any $. Is there government funding for such things? At the very least, what are some online resources or books that I could use to help me create a better environment for her? Maybe just being aware of how she views things will help tremendously but I need to be better educated about ADHD\Inattentive and VSL. Jackie, what have been your resources for gaining so much insight into how your son thinks and sees things? Peela, Cassandra, what about the two of you...or anyone else for that matter...what helps you most in coping with your dc who exhibit these traits\behaviors brought on by some condition that can't be explained away as just immaturity or hormones?

[ondreeuh]

I've researched autism and aspergers and she doesn't fit the description at all. The one thing that I think she may be is ADHD, predominately inattentive type. She exhibits all the traits on the lists. That does explain the forgetfulness, especially for those tasks that she finds tedious. It also explains why she loathes, and can't maintain focus on schoolwork but can concentrate on art, her own projects, crafts, building things, etc. However, it doesn't explain the selfishness, the manipulation, the skewed sense of fairness, the lack of responsibility for her actions...all of those things are just her personality I suppose; or lack of maturity. Regardless, all of it combined makes raising her challenging and exhausting.

 

I suppose I need to research more about the Inattentive type and possibly be able to get a better handle on how to cope with those issues and then maybe the rest might fix itself. Testing isn't an option because our insurance won't pay for it and we can't pay out of pocket. Unless I could get the testing and therapy through the government it just isn't in the cards for us right now.

 

Here are some ideas I've come up with for handling some of the most pressing issues right now:

 

1. Instead of me telling what needs to be done regarding household chores and responsibilities give her a chart. This takes my verbal "commands" out of the picture.

 

2. Ask her to assign a time frame or specific time for completing her tasks.

 

3. Don't engage in arguments with her...EVER. Just walk away.

 

4. Don't try to reason with her when she is upset. State what I need to say and then walk away.

 

5. Give her attention first in the morning - even get up earlier than everyone else so I can work one on one with her with no distractions at all.

 

I think all of your ideas are good ones.

 

I really want you to consider what you've said about her having ADD. If she has ADD, she is not able to control things that she knows she should be able to control, and this can absolutely manifest in the manipulation, attitude, etc. that you are seeing. A child who knows what's expected, wants to meet the expectation, and fails because she forgets or can't get organized, disappoints herself and takes it as a sign of personal failure. That's an enormous blow to her self-esteem and her own belief that she is actually capable of following through, and she stops trying and blames others.

 

Talk to your pediatrician about your concerns. Read up on ADD. These kids need a lot more support and hand-holding than you may think they should get at their age. Checklists, planners, sticky-notes, timers, reminders, etc. Also, a TON of understanding and help building their self-esteem back up.

[Corraleno]

So, here I stand at this fork in the road that I've been to before. One way makes a loop right back to this point (and I'm tired of the scenery on this route) and the other way heads off in a new direction. Evaluations, testing, therapy...how do I do all of those things without any $. Is there government funding for such things? At the very least, what are some online resources or books that I could use to help me create a better environment for her? Maybe just being aware of how she views things will help tremendously but I need to be better educated about ADHD\Inattentive and VSL. Jackie, what have been your resources for gaining so much insight into how your son thinks and sees things?

I've learned a lot from VisualSpatial.org and from the Eides (both their book and the blog), as well as other books, but I've also talked a lot to DS and DH and asked them to explain things to me, explained what I thought the issue might be and asked if that made sense to them, etc. And a lot of it (in terms of seeing what works and what doesn't) is just plain trial and error. I've made a lot of mistakes in homeschooling, especially in trying to fit DS into a certain structure (WTM) that seemed appropriately rigorous and challenging for a gifted kid, without taking into account that the way he really thinks and learns looks nothing like that. I've found that the more I let him lead the way academically, the better he does. The more he follows his interests, the broader those interests grow and the deeper he pursues them. I think getting out of his way academically, while also coming alongside him emotionally, has made a big difference. (I posted a few months ago what he was doing for "school" these days: see posts 16 & 18.) With kids who tend to see things in very black-&-white terms, battling over academics can set up an adversarial relationship that can be hard to break through when you are trying to help them in other ways (emotionally, functionally).

 

Here are some ideas I've come up with for handling some of the most pressing issues right now:

 

1. Instead of me telling what needs to be done regarding household chores and responsibilities give her a chart. This takes my verbal "commands" out of the picture.

It needs to be a very clear, explicit chart, probably with specific times on it — and she will still need reminders. DS actually appreciates reminders, but if your DD considers it "nagging," then you might look into getting her a watch that lets you set multiple alarms.

 

2. Ask her to assign a time frame or specific time for completing her tasks.

You need to help with this, and work out a time frame that has plenty of margin for error built in — and then remind her!

 

3. Don't engage in arguments with her...EVER. Just walk away.

4. Don't try to reason with her when she is upset. State what I need to say and then walk away.

I don't argue with my son, but I don't walk away either — to him, that feels like I'm abandoning him, not listening to him, don't care about him, etc. I do try to reason with him, but first I want him to know I understand why he feels the way he does, and then I help him walk through the process of seeing it from a different perspective. So I would say do reason with her (calmly), but no criticism at all when she's in this emotional state, because she will just go into cornered-animal mode and defend herself.

5. Give her attention first in the morning - even get up earlier than everyone else so I can work one on one with her with no distractions at all.

This one is a great idea. One-on-one attention is so important in making these kids feel valued and understood and listened to.

 

Having a hypersensitive, ADD/VSL kid who is also very strong-willed can seem like the "perfect storm" for a parenting nightmare, but the fact that she's so strong-willed may be a real asset when she's an adult, because she will not let her "differences" stop her from achieving her goals and getting what she wants in life. You just need to survive the next 5-7 years or so!

 

Jackie

Edited June 16, 2011 by Corraleno
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[amyable]

This sounds a lot like my ADD/dyslexic 13yo too. I just read a book that reiterated to me that ADD kids are often immature by a few years. I always knew that about my dd, but to see it in print has helped me give her the benefit of the doubt. I can say to myself ... is she acting more appropriately for a neurotypical 9yo? Yes? We're good then, disengage.

 

She definitely a handful. I just hope I do more good then harm over the years!

[fairfarmhand]

I didn't read all the thread, but I have a dd who sounds similar.

 

I kept wondering "when will this get better? Will she ever grow out of this? " sigh

 

one day I just accepted the fact that some kids are NEVER going to be easy. BUt that was ok, cause I was going to love her anyway.

 

She still drove me nuts, BUT mentally, I was ok. I decided that there must be a reason why God gave her to ME. Perhaps there are some things I need to learn from parenting this challenging child.

 

Some of those traits are slowly working their way out of her.

 

I looked at it like this. My dh is alot like she was. And I like him pretty well now.

 

Just love her as much as you can.

[justamouse]

Aime, I have a similar kiddo (and DH!), and I was a bit like this myself as a kid (at least in terms of being strong-willed), and I would encourage you to not take her behavior personally or see it as a character flaw. As hard as it is to parent these kids, I believe it's actually a lot harder to BE them, and as Peela said, they really need all the love and patience we can possibly muster. They often grow up to be really wonderful, tenacious, successful people.

 

I'll address some of the behaviors individually:

 

 

Honestly I don't believe this is manipulation; some people just see things in black & white — either everything is right with the world, or there's a ripple in the space/time continuum and we're all gonna diiiiiiiieeeeee! Both my DH and my DS (who are VSL/ADD/intense people like your DD) react this way to criticism. No matter how mild, constructive, or well-intentioned the criticism may be, they hear it as "you're a totally worthless, defective human being." I have had many conversations where I make a comment which is met with...

DS/DH: "Yes, I know, I'm a stupid idiot who doesn't deserve to live!!!"

Me: "Um, no, I just said you left your socks on the living room floor again." :confused:

 

 

One of the biggest epiphanies for me, in dealing with both DS and DH, was that I was only looking at half of the VSL thing — the visual part. With VSLs like your DD and my DS, we focus on the visual part because it's easy to conceptualize the "verbal vs visual" part, and to tailor their education accordingly. But the other half of being a VSL — the sequential vs spatial part — is IMO what has the biggest impact on daily life. The epiphany for me was in realizing that the difference in "wiring" is not just thinking in images vs words, it's that the way their lives and thoughts are organized is spatial not sequential or linear or temporal. They live very much in the "here and now" and they don't organize their thoughts or actions into lists or sequences, with links between past and present and future actions.

 

If my alarm goes off and I'm tired, I can think through a whole sequence of events: if I sleep for an extra 20 minutes, it means I will have to skip either the shower or breakfast (are there any muffins left that I could grab on the way out?), and I'll have to get the kids ready quickly (do I know where everyone's shoes and coats are?), etc. Then I can decide how much extra time I can stay in bed or whether I need to get up now. My DS and DH simply can. not. think that way. Almost everyone I know who is like DS and DH has maybe 3 "time units" they recognize: "5 minutes" (which can actually be anything from 5 minutes to an hour), "an hour or so" (which equals anywhere from 1-3 hours) and "later" (which might mean tonight or next year). Anything that takes less than an hour falls into the "5 minutes" category, even if it has taken half an hour every. single. time. they've ever taken a shower / gotten dressed / driven to the post office / whatever. My DH is 40 and I cannot tell him "be ready in an hour" because he will leave everything until 5 minutes before we need to be in the car — and then he will be upset that I'm mad at him for making us late, as if he couldn't possibly have known that getting ready would take more than 5 minutes! DH and DS both need checklists and/or reminders at each step of a multi-step process. They have no sense of time or ability to prioritize.

 

 

This is actually part of the same problem — there is no past or future, just how they feel right now this minute. She wants to know about her friend right now; asking her to wait a few days is like asking her to wait until she's 20 — that's how it feels to her. The fact that all the kids had the same number of tokens half an hour ago is irrelevant — everyone has more than her right now and that feels unfair.

 

I'm not saying that it's rational or reasonable — but that is how it feels to these kids. Telling them that their feelings are wrong doesn't work, telling them that they're being selfish or unreasonable just gets translated into "you're a terrible person for feeling what you feel," which immediately puts them into defensive mode.

 

When DS feels something is unfair, I say "OK, I can understand why you might feel that way if you just look at what's happening this minute, but let's look at the big picture..." With the Chuck E. Cheese tokens, I would explain that I can understand why she would feel bad that everyone else is still playing when she has no more tokens, but since she played her games more quickly than the others, it isn't really unfair, just unfortunate. So how can we solve this? Maybe next time you can divide your tokens into four piles and only use one pile every 15 minutes, so they will last an hour. Or maybe you could choose games that cost fewer tokens or that provide longer play per token. Etc.

 

Sometimes I feel like DS and DH live on a separate planet — and I know they live in their own private time zones! I've found that it works much better if I try to see things from the perspective of their planet first, and then explain to them how things work here on Earth, lol. Validating how they feel, even if it seems totally irrational to me, helps prevent that spiral of defensiveness and resentment.

 

Jackie

 

While you are right, you seem to be dealing with two people who acknowledge that they are different and are wanting to learn how to accommodate themselves in the world.

 

When you have a person who wants the world to bend to THEM, the outcome is totally different. When this person thinks that nothing they do is wrong and fly all of their shrapnel on everyone else, what you say cannot work.

 

And, it's also compounded by how many people you have in the family. My son would be an incredible only child. I could cater much more to him. Unfortunately for him, he has brothers and sisters that ALSO need attention and care. And I wouldn't giove any of them up to parent him differently, either, that's not fair to them. So you're not dealing with a parent/child relationship-you're dealing with many, many relationships.

[5LittleMonkeys]

And, it's also compounded by how many people you have in the family. My son would be an incredible only child. I could cater much more to him. Unfortunately for him, he has brothers and sisters that ALSO need attention and care. And I wouldn't giove any of them up to parent him differently, either, that's not fair to them. So you're not dealing with a parent/child relationship-you're dealing with many, many relationships.

 

I've read so many of Jackie's posts in the past and from what she has described before I think my dd is very much like her ds. She seems to have a really great handle on her son's behavior and a good insight into VSL and ADHD. I respect and am going to try to follow her advice in dealing with my dd.

 

However, what Justamouse is saying above is so, so true also. I've said many times that if dd was an only child I don't think we would have such a hard time coping. When she goes to stay at my sister's or my mom's alone she is like a different child. She still exhibits a lot of the same quirks but the extreme emotions, the constant struggle to be noticed, first, best, even the forgetfullness seem to not be as pronounced or are gone completley. So yes, not only do I have to try to figure out how to relate to her, I have to referee how she relates to dd13, dd8 ds5 and even dd2 because she has a different mode of behavior she uses with each of them and she is fiercly jealous of the 8yo so she goes out of her way to pick on her and manipulate her. There is a lot of sibling animosity going on that I'm trying to repair too. When we have an incident not only do I have to deal with her but also whoever else was involved (and there usually is always at least one other person involved in our house).

 

So, I think you are both right. Dealing with dd12 will have to be a family effort that includes cooperation from all 7...oops I forgot MIL...all 8 of us.

[Corraleno]

When you have a person who wants the world to bend to THEM, the outcome is totally different. When this person thinks that nothing they do is wrong and fly all of their shrapnel on everyone else, what you say cannot work.

When DS was younger, he did expect the world to bend to him, and he still sometimes tends to blame others for things he needs to take responsibility for; I've worked very hard to make him see the world from another perspective — by first showing him that I understand things from his — and he has gotten much better about this over time. Even DH, when he gets particularly wound up about something, tends to revert to "blame everyone else and refuse all responsibility" mode. I've learned that aknowledging how he feels, and then gently getting him to look at things from my perspective, rather than telling him how pigheaded, selfish and unreasonable he's being, has been a lot more effective in dealing with him. And frankly he struggles with this even more than DS does, because his parents basically did tell him how pigheaded, selfish and unreasonable he was being, without attempting to see his side of things, so that pattern was well set before I met him.

 

And, it's also compounded by how many people you have in the family. My son would be an incredible only child. I could cater much more to him. Unfortunately for him, he has brothers and sisters that ALSO need attention and care. And I wouldn't giove any of them up to parent him differently, either, that's not fair to them. So you're not dealing with a parent/child relationship-you're dealing with many, many relationships.

I don't have as many kids as you and Aime do, but DS is not an only child. I also have a 9 yo DD and have to deal with their sometimes volatile relationship, plus in many ways DH functions as a 3rd child, lol. I don't think the approach I've taken with DS (and DH) would necessarily work with every kid, and the dynamic would be more complex if I had more kids, but I don't think that necessarily means the basic approach is flawed, or impossible to implement in a larger family.

 

What is the alternative?

 

Jackie

[goldberry]

This is actually part of the same problem — there is no past or future, just how they feel right now this minute. She wants to know about her friend right now; asking her to wait a few days is like asking her to wait until she's 20 — that's how it feels to her. The fact that all the kids had the same number of tokens half an hour ago is irrelevant — everyone has more than her right now and that feels unfair.

 

I'm not saying that it's rational or reasonable — but that is how it feels to these kids. Telling them that their feelings are wrong doesn't work, telling them that they're being selfish or unreasonable just gets translated into "you're a terrible person for feeling what you feel," which immediately puts them into defensive mode.

 

 

Sometimes I feel like DS and DH live on a separate planet — and I know they live in their own private time zones! I've found that it works much better if I try to see things from the perspective of their planet first, and then explain to them how things work here on Earth, lol. Validating how they feel, even if it seems totally irrational to me, helps prevent that spiral of defensiveness and resentment.

 

Jackie

 

What a great post....I need this with my DD12 too...(she is ADD Inattentive as well)...thank you!

 

Example for OP, DD has been obsessed with ballgowns for dressup lately. My mom in another state found some at Goodwill for her. (My mom is old and has alot of health issues.) DD was so excited. Well, my mom had some stuff going on and wasn't able to mail them right away. DD got so mad, crying, angry, AT MY MOM because she hadn't mailed them. I was furious with her and felt like her behavior was more like a 5 yo than a 12 yo, and I told her so. It was a rough moment and she eventually "saw the light", but it took way longer and way more explaining than I would have ever thought. My secret thought was "I am raising a selfish future serial killer!"...I know that's not true, i just need to be reminded. Thank you, Jackie!

Edited June 17, 2011 by coloradoperkins

[justamouse]

When DS was younger, he did expect the world to bend to him, and he still sometimes tends to blame others for things he needs to take responsibility for; I've worked very hard to make him see the world from another perspective — by first showing him that I understand things from his — and he has gotten much better about this over time. Even DH, when he gets particularly wound up about something, tends to revert to "blame everyone else and refuse all responsibility" mode. I've learned that aknowledging how he feels, and then gently getting him to look at things from my perspective, rather than telling him how pigheaded, selfish and unreasonable he's being, has been a lot more effective in dealing with him. And frankly he struggles with this even more than DS does, because his parents basically did tell him how pigheaded, selfish and unreasonable he was being, without attempting to see his side of things, so that pattern was well set before I met him.

 

 

I don't have as many kids as you and Aime do, but DS is not an only child. I also have a 9 yo DD and have to deal with their sometimes volatile relationship, plus in many ways DH functions as a 3rd child, lol. I don't think the approach I've taken with DS (and DH) would necessarily work with every kid, and the dynamic would be more complex if I had more kids, but I don't think that necessarily means the basic approach is flawed, or impossible to implement in a larger family.

 

What is the alternative?

 

Jackie

 

I didn't say it was flawed, I just said that these children tend to do better with little to no siblings.

[Niffercoo]

What would you say about a dc like this...

 

 

Hates being told what to do. Doesn't like being told she is wrong...ever. If you correct her she takes it as a personal insult. Hates having to learn anything that she deems as school related, even if previously she had been interested. Doesn't like sharing and gets upset when she is required to. Has a skewed sense of fairness; always expects the biggest, the best, the most of everything even if it means someone else gets nothing. If you call her on bad behavior or point out that she has been unfair or mean to someone she first acts like she doesn't know what you are talking about and then tries to play the martyr and laments about what a terrible person she is. "Forgets" anything and everything that she is asked to do...has to be reminded repeatedly to accomplish a simple task but never forgets anything that she wants to do. Will never willingly take the initiative to do a chore or schoolwork even though she knows it needs to be done; she always waits until she has been told to do it. Trys to be funny when others are being serious. When someone is joking or kidding around with her she ramps up to the point of annoying and then doesn't know when to stop even when others start getting angry. Expects something in return for everything she does in the household, for the family. All of this could very well happen before lunch on a bad day.

It is coming to a head lately. All of the other dc, including the 5yo are starting to complain more and more about her and are purposefully trying to avoid being around her.

 

 

 

I would say you are describing my 12 year old.

 

Since she has 2 siblings on the spectrum, I have considered that she, too, may be on the spectrum - but I have a hard time pinpointing the exact criteria in her. I have considered that she may have ADHD, but again those criteria didn't really fit. I read Strong-Willed Child, or Dreamer? and that really sounded like her, but it doesn't mean she doesn't also have something else going on. I called my other kids' developmental specialist to see if they could offer a suggestion but they didn't call me back - need to follow up on that. She also hit puberty hard this year, so I have considered that it has something to do with that. I have also considered that it's just the result of the awful parenting she has received - when she was a baby, I was busy dealing with her autistic older brother. When she was a preschooler, I was busy dealing with her autistic baby sister.

 

She does NOT respond to punishment. She has lost dance classes, her phone, she hasn't touched her ipod in over a month - and it doesn't change anything.

 

If you find the secret, please post again and let me know!