Average IQ for homeschoolers

[Tohru]

From another thread, I read somewhere that an IQ of >130 is only the top 2 percent of the population. My husband and I have been talking about it and neither of us can fathom how that is possible, let alone how any one can even know the average since few people actually take IQ tests.

 

I was going to make a poll, but changed my mind.

 

Any one else have an opinion?

 

ETA: DH and I were talking about adults that homeschool their kids...I guess I should've been much clearer in the original post. :tongue_smilie:

Edited June 13, 2011 by jadedone80

[jec3113]

I read somewhere that the average doctor has an IQ of 120. Average is between 90-100.

[Tarreymere]

I read somewhere that the average doctor has an IQ of 120. Average is between 90-100.

 

 

Hmmm.......that kind of education is more about persistence than intelligence, so I doubt that particular statistic is true. I would be more willing to believe that the average doctor has an IQ of 100 to 110, however.

[LearningGrace]

Our 12 yo ds and I have been studying The Fallacy Detective. I'd think this was a hasty generalization. Not a large enough sample from the class as every homeschooler was not tested. (Should I myself generalize and say that most of us haven't?) :001_smile: It is amazing how we throw around generalized statements - myself included certainly.

 

Perhaps we should take a poll here to determine how many have actually taken an IQ test. :) I would say no; I haven't taken a standardized one. So, at the very least, I wasn't included in the study you mentioned. :lol:

[OrganicAnn]

I think there was a poll a couple of years ago and about 50%+ indicated that their child(ren) were gifted. I don't remember if gifted was defined as IQ 130+ or if it indicated any type of giftedness.

 

I immediately thought of Lake Wobegon where all the children are above average.

[twoxcell]

I do not know anyone who has taken an actual IQ test except for my mother. She was given IQ tests as a child because she was gifted in school.

[justasque]

My local school district tests every child at the end of first grade. They tell the parents the children will be tested, but not what for, and not the results. So if you asked those parents, most would say their child had not taken an IQ test, even though their child has indeed taken one, and their score is on file at the school.

 

Don't. Get. Me. Started.

[angela in ohio]

Are you asking about the population in general or homeschools? If youa re talking about the general population, I would assume a statistical sample was used, the same way that any other statistic is determined. :001_smile: You don't have to test every person. (We all had our IQ tested in school, but I don't think that is done regularly.)

 

I think the homeschool population contains more students at either end of the range, simply because schools don't meet their needs and so they end up homeschooling in larger proportions. I also think you will never get an accurate study of IQ of homeschoolers.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

From another thread, I read somewhere that an IQ of >130 is only the top 2 percent of the population. My husband and I have been talking about it and neither of us can fathom how that is possible, let alone how any one can even know the average since few people actually take IQ tests.

 

I was going to make a poll, but changed my mind.

 

Any one else have an opinion?

 

I think it might be based on the original testing when they first started it. If I recall correctly, it started in the French public school system, and was mandatory.

[wapiti]

From another thread, I read somewhere that an IQ of >130 is only the top 2 percent of the population. My husband and I have been talking about it and neither of us can fathom how that is possible, let alone how any one can even know the average since few people actually take IQ tests.

 

I was going to make a poll, but changed my mind.

 

Any one else have an opinion?

:confused: IQ has been heavily studied. Not that there's likely to be data on homeschoolers in particular, but on the WISC (one of the common individual IQ tests these days), >130 = 98th percentile. Maybe one of the statistics experts will pipe in, but this is basically by definition (normal distribution?). My understanding is that on the WISC, 15 points of IQ = one standard deviation. So 130 is two standard deviations above the mean of 100.

 

100 is average. So, I'd certainly hope that most doctors have an IQ at least somewhat above average.

 

FWIW, I know quite a few people who have taken IQ tests. I did when I was in 7th grade, but my mother refused to tell me the score, and now she can't remember :glare:. Three of my six kids have taken IQ tests, two of them twice (what can I say, they have "issues" :tongue_smilie:). My DH took one when he was maybe late elementary age.

 

IQ tests are a common component of testing for LDs as well as giftedness.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

My local school district tests every child at the end of first grade. They tell the parents the children will be tested, but not what for, and not the results. So if you asked those parents, most would say their child had not taken an IQ test, even though their child has indeed taken one, and their score is on file at the school.

 

Don't. Get. Me. Started.

 

Dose the GATE testing in ps count? I don't remember the GATE testing (second grade) but I remember the tests they game me afterward because I scored high enough. It was the first time I was asked "Is the glass half full or half empty?" Same with sunrise/sunset, etc. I thought they were crazy :willy_nilly: because how could you tell? I finally said the cup was half empty because the only reason I could think of for putting water in a glass was to drink some, and then put it on the table (in the picture.) Therefore it was partially emptied.

[Tohru]

I think it might be based on the original testing when they first started it. If I recall correctly, it started in the French public school system, and was mandatory.

 

I've read that the IQ's of children vary as they grow older. DH and I were talking about adults that homeschool their kids...I guess I should've been much clearer. :tongue_smilie:

[texasmama]

From another thread, I read somewhere that an IQ of >130 is only the top 2 percent of the population. My husband and I have been talking about it and neither of us can fathom how that is possible, let alone how any one can even know the average since few people actually take IQ tests.

 

I was going to make a poll, but changed my mind.

 

Any one else have an opinion?

 

IQ tests are normed using large groups of people in the general population so it is quite possible for fairly accurate statistics to be gathered such as this. I'm unclear how you are relating that statistic to homeschoolers, though.

 

I don't know of any hard data regarding doctors and IQ, but I would hazard a guess that most medical doctors are in that 2%. The courses required for a medical degree are quite grueling. It would be possible to work twice as hard with an average IQ and make it through, I'm sure, but not likely.

[cathmom]

I've read that the IQ's of children vary as they grow older. DH and I were talking about adults that homeschool their kids...I guess I should've been much clearer. :tongue_smilie:

 

I do think it could be higher, since people with IQs over 130 are unlikely to have been served well by the public schools, and so are maybe more likely to homeschool their dc.

[texasmama]

I've read that the IQ's of children vary as they grow older.

 

 

IQ's can vary quite a bit depending on many factors, including what test is given, how tired or well-rested the child is, how motivated the child is to do well on the test and other factors such as learning disabilities. IQ tests such as the WISC will not include "outliers" in the overall scoring, so if a child has a learning disability and scores very high on one portion of the test, it will be eliminated from the overall score. IQ tests cannot be repeated any sooner than every year or there is a risk of invalidating the results due to test familiarity. The types of IQ tests given to children vary with age, as well, so it is not a fair comparison to compare the test result at one age to a different test result at another age.

[Tap]

Hmmm.......that kind of education is more about persistence than intelligence, so I doubt that particular statistic is true. I would be more willing to believe that the average doctor has an IQ of 100 to 110, however.

 

I don't think I agree that most doctors have that low of an average IQ. I work in pharmacy, and pharmacists have similar educations standards to doctors. I know some brilliant pharmacists and doctors. I am sure I encounter a lot of brilliant people in everyday life, but I don't encounter many pharmacists or doctors who are of average intelligence. They aren't all brilliant, but I would say overall, they are often of higher IQ than the general population I encounter.

 

DH works in sales for an international company with people who have BS to MS degrees. I do not see the same level of intelligence in his coworkers. Bright, educated people...but not overwhelmingly so. Average to bright, but not brilliant like I would expect to see in a 120+.

 

What I consider brilliant isn't just the basic recall of the details learned in a lengthy education, but the recall of very specific facts and the mental adaptability to take that knowledge learned 10+ years ago, add it to new knowledge and get current, accurate information out of it. It is what they can do with the information they have learned, and the application of it that shows someones brilliance to me.

 

My sister dated a man with a near idealic memory. He was not brilliant to me, because he could only recall specific facts (like reading an encyclopedia), but not form cohesive or coherant suppositions from the information. I don't think he had the mental dexterity required to have a high score on an IQ test.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Tap, tap, tap

[Tarreymere]

IQ tests are normed using large groups of people in the general population so it is quite possible for fairly accurate statistics to be gathered such as this. I'm unclear how you are relating that statistic to homeschoolers, though.

 

I don't know of any hard data regarding doctors and IQ, but I would hazard a guess that most medical doctors are in that 2%. The courses required for a medical degree are quite grueling. It would be possible to work twice as hard with an average IQ and make it through, I'm sure, but not likely.

 

Just to play Devil's Advocate, it is my experience that people with average IQ levels tend to be better at working hard and putting in an effort than people with higher IQ levels, because the people with the higher IQ levels are the least likely people to learn how to study well and work hard since things tend to come easier to them during their early years in school. Especially in most public schools.

 

And just for variety in our conversation, we haven't even touched on the validity of IQ testing........ http://bsnpta.org/geeklog/public_html//article.php?story=Use_Misuse_IQ_Testing

 

<Exits room, chuckling........>

Edited June 13, 2011 by Rainefox

[wapiti]

Perhaps the IQ of homeschooling parents who hang around WTM might be higher, but I'm guessing that if one included the IQs of all homeschoolers everywhere, the average would probably be pretty close to... average, unless, perhaps, parents at the far low end of IQ tend not to homeschool. It's all speculation ;)

[Tohru]

Perhaps the IQ of homeschooling parents who hang around WTM might be higher, but I'm guessing that if one included the IQs of all homeschoolers everywhere, the average would probably be pretty close to... average, unless, perhaps, parents at the far low end of IQ tend not to homeschool. It's all speculation ;)

 

:lol:

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

I've read that the IQ's of children vary as they grow older. DH and I were talking about adults that homeschool their kids...I guess I should've been much clearer. :tongue_smilie:

 

Ohhhhh. Okay. Hmmmm.... Well, parents with higher IQs may have higher paying jobs which in turn can support a single-income lifestyle that makes homeschooling possible. But I don't think that represents a high percentage of those on this forum.

 

Parents with higher IQs may have had worse experiences in public school, which could lead them to not want that for their kids.

 

From a personal experience, I think people with more average IQs might be less likely to homeschool because they think they can't possibly teach their own kids/don't have enough confidence in their abilities. For that reason, I could see the ration of higher IQs/average IQs being less on the average side.

[texasmama]

Just to play Devil's Advocate, it is my experience that people with average IQ levels tend to be better at working hard and putting in an effort than people with higher IQ levels, because the people with the higher IQ levels are least likely to learn how to study and work hard since things tend to come easier to them during their early years in school.

 

I'm sure that some people with average IQ's learn to work harder and study better, but so do some people with above average IQ's. The fact that a person MUST work harder with an average IQ to achieve the same results as someone with a very high IQ (140 and above, for the sake of discussion) does not necessarily correlate to that person doing that hard work. So many factors are involved in educational success. IQ points are helpful, as is persistence.

 

I know quite a few doctors and quite a few folks with PhD's in other fields, and these people without exception would fall into the 2% statistic. Anecdotal evidence, I know, but I don't know of any hard research. Now I am curious, though...(about hard research)

[wapiti]

I know quite a few doctors and quite a few folks with PhD's in other fields, and these people without exception would fall into the 2% statistic. Anecdotal evidence, I know, but I don't know of any hard research. Now I am curious, though...(about hard research)

:iagree: and I'm curious as well.

[Perry]

I read somewhere that the average doctor has an IQ of 120. Average is between 90-100.

 

Hmmm.......that kind of education is more about persistence than intelligence, so I doubt that particular statistic is true. I would be more willing to believe that the average doctor has an IQ of 100 to 110, however.

 

I don't know anything about this source, but this sounds reasonable to me. No way the average IQ of doctors is 100.

In their book, Know Your Child’s IQ, Glen Wilson and Diana Grylls outline occupations typical of various IQ levels:

140 Top Civil Servants; Professors and Research Scientists.

130 Physicians and Surgeons; Lawyers; Engineers (Civil and Mechanical)

120 School Teachers; Pharmacists; Accountants; Nurses; Stenographers; Managers.

110 Foremen; Clerks; Telephone Operators; Salesmen; Policemen; Electricians.

100+ Machine Operators; Shopkeepers; Butchers; Welders; Sheet Metal Workers.

100- Warehousemen; Carpenters; Cooks and Bakers; Small Farmers; Truck and Van Drivers.

90 Laborers; Gardeners; Upholsterers; Farmhands; Miners; Factory Packers and Sorters.

and from Modern IQ ranges for various occupations

 

Edited June 13, 2011 by Perry

[Parrothead]

I know 100 is supposed to be average. I know my IQ (or at least what I scored when I was given the test years ago), and it is above the 130 mark. (Not by much.) I don't feel that I'm overly smart though. There is no way I'd classify myself as on of the top 2% of the population.

 

This site gives an explanation. According to it, and my old score maybe I'm just a bit smarter than what I thought I am.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Parrothead

[Peela]

I do think it could be higher, since people with IQs over 130 are unlikely to have been served well by the public schools, and so are maybe more likely to homeschool their dc.

 

Yes, thats an interesting point.

My son, now back at school, did an IQ test at the school last week, and got 147. He is my LD kid who was homeschooled because of LDs.

The test might have been wrong- I am not investing too much into it- but I was glad he did it because school only served him to feel bad about himself. I definitely homeschooled him to give him the best I could, knowing school had failed him.

High IQ does not necessarily translate over to brilliance across the board and often goes hand in hand with difficulties. However, I would not have thought he had such a high IQ either, even though I know he is very bright in certain ways.

[tntgoodwin]

I was homeschooled for one year, and was IQ tested.

 

I don't believe I was ever tested at the other schools I went to (public, private, DOD). I imagine we will test my kids when they get in high school or so.

[Virg]

I had mine done in therapy as a teen, my brother had his done in the military, both of my kids have had theirs done as part of comprehensive testing for developmental delays, speech disorders and LDs at our children's hospital and my step-daughter had hers done in the same children's hospital as part of testing for her behavior issues. In my small part of the world, it is common :)

 

ETA: I was rereading and saw we were talking about the adults. I agree that part of it at least might be adults with high IQs weren't served well at PS. My brother and I were at private school for all of elementary and middle and loved it. We did PS HS and it was horrible for us. I was never going to put my kids in public school because my experiences were so bad and my brother refuses to marry anyone who won't homeschool or at least allow his sister (me) to homeschool their future children. Our IQs are both over 140.

Edited June 13, 2011 by ds4159

[YLVD]

I do not know anyone who has taken an actual IQ test except for my mother. She was given IQ tests as a child because she was gifted in school.

 

I don't think it's super common either. I took one as a child as I was in the gifted program. My DD had to take one when they were assessing her for a learning disability

[weddell]

I just read (I think it was in a book called Brain Rules for Baby, but I can't quite remember) that the average IQ score of the general population has been going up over the years since it was developed. The author's point was that IQ scores mean something, but we don't quite know what exactly and they aren't the precise measurement people tend to think they are.

 

Anyway, I know I have had my IQ tested during TAG (talented and gifted) summer "camps". Yes, I went to summer "school" for fun. They never told us (the kids who attended this) that portion of our scores, but I do remember that they gave us the statistics about the areas of interest we scored highly in. We were all part of a research study that tracked us for years (probably still are). DH is definitely smarter than I am and he told me that he and his brother both had their IQs tested as kids or teens for some school reason. His parents refused to tell them their scores, saying that no good could come from the kids themselves knowing. Either you score higher than you thought and get conceited or you score lower and feel bad. So he doesn't know his either.

 

I wouldn't be surprised that people who choose to homeschool have average higher IQs. It's something that can take a lot of research, creativity, and self study. Not everyone has the abilities needed.

[anabelneri]

Not that this is anything but anecdotal, but it might add to the conversation...

 

We're homeschooling through a charter school (home-based education type), and I've spent a lot of time talking to the school secretary. She shared with me once that our school basically works with two groups of kids: those with learning or developmental disabilities, and those who are well above the average (though of course there is some overlap; many gifted kids have LDs). The school doesn't specifically target either of these populations, but that's generally how the demographics fell out. Her opinion was that those were the kids not served by schools, and their parents realized it and chose to homeschool.

 

I have certainly met families homeschooling through our charter whose children fall in the middle of the curve (keeping in mind that IQ is a bell curve), and all of them fall into at least one of three categories: (1) Christian, (2) attachment parents, or (3) former teachers.

 

None of this is all that helpful for pinning down the IQ of homeschooling parents, except that higher IQ kids often have higher IQ parents, and teachers (and former teachers) are on the higher end of the curve. Beyond that, I would have to say that the remainder of the folks I've met through my school have an unusual dedication to their beliefs/philosophy and their children. That doesn't align with any particular portion of the IQ curve, but I find it to be beautiful.

 

:)

[kiana]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's a correlation between people who choose to homeschool for academic reasons and giftedness. I know one of the reasons I've always been determined was because of how badly I felt the public school system treated me.

[Carrie12345]

I've never taken an official IQ test. My unofficial online tests are always over 100.

 

Ds has taken multiple IQ assessments and full-length, official tests over the past 7 or 8 years (through autism evals and school testing) and is always over 120.

 

We don't have any plans to test anyone else in our house.

[Tarreymere]

Assuming for a moment that one IQ test at one point in time is an accurate measure of something useful.......

 

 

How exactly did that study come up with an 'average' IQ by profession? Did they actually test the IQ of a certain number of people in each of those professions? If a certain number of people in each profession were indeed tested, what was the sample size? Or is it an assumption on the part of the authors of that book that people in a certain profession would tend to have a certain level of IQ? Who read the book? Can you tell us?

 

Does the supposition that people with higher IQ levels would be more likely to homeschool as parents because of their experiences as students in public school hold true for people on this board? What about the contention that most people who homeschool do so for religious reasons? What is the IQ of the average religiously oriented homeschool parent and what is the IQ of the average secular homeschool parent and would you suppose that the IQ of the average secular homeschool parent would tend to be higher than the IQ of the average religiously oriented homeschool parent since the religious parent is presumably more likely to homeschool for reasons that have little or nothing to do with academic reasons? Anyone up for a poll of homeschool parent self-reported IQ levels, organized by level of religious commitment to homeschooling?

 

Since people with autism and other disorders can have high IQ levels and still have difficulty with other areas of life and are clearly not especially good candidates for professions that require a certain amount of interaction with others, like doctors, why do we still think that IQ is a valid way to determine the suitability of a particular person for a particular profession?

[Pamela H in Texas]

I'd *guess* that the average IQ of homeschooling parents is on the higher end of average with some sprinklings from the extremes, probably more gifted parents than those with low IQs though.

 

I completely buy that the children's IQs and achievement levels straddle normal. A LOT of us homeschool because our children were outside of "normal" in some way or another. In my case, my kids were way outside of average and I felt them better served from home because of that.

 

Also, I'm not so sure about IQ tests. Maybe it's because the highest IQ people I know are also lazy, dealing with mental illness, have significant LDs and the like. Or maybe it's because I'm so attuned to noticing gifts of people that IQ just seems off. I see "brightness" and "gifts" and awesome(and extreme) attributes in most people.

 

Also, I just watched (like 2 weeks ago), my youngest foster son be tested with the WPPSI. I realize his results are even more in question just because he just turned 3, but bear with me. Honestly, though I was there for ds's WPPSI many years ago, I was particularly surprised about the kinds of questions which seemed more general knowledge as well as personal experience (for example, my 4yr old foster son, when he was tested, answered "poop" for one of his answers. It was a correct answer in his experience, but I guarantee there was no way to evaluate it within the test!). Additionally, aspects of the test were not developmentally appropriate (which is kinda odd considering it's a preschool test!). And half the time, my 3yr old simply hit the page, sometimes hitting the right answer and sometimes not. How is that any help? Of course, the psychologist and I looked at each other on one question he got right both seriously surprised. Did he know? Or?

 

Going back to ds's testing from years ago. Like many people, instead of questioning it, I was just happy he did so well. Yeah, mom, go brag about your kid. But 13 years later, I'm just thinking it's bologna.

 

Oh goodness, I can't even get this point out (see, IQ not helping me here either). I guess there has to be SOMETHING to it in that I can so easily guess or recognize where a person would fall, within a couple points. I did it for each of my kids. I did it for each of my foster kids. I did it for my friend's child. I "agree" with the numbers for my brother and me and numerous other people. But mostly, it just doesn't seem to given any useful information. My one foster child's scores are pretty low and yet I think that child has more potential than almost anyone else I know. That child will be THE cherry on the sundae for my anecdotal evidence that IQ is just not telling of much.

Edited June 13, 2011 by 2J5M9K

[SailorMom]

Personally, I think IQ tests are overrated, biased, and hardly more than a rough guideline.

I have known 'geniuses" who are idiots. I've known people with supposedly low IQ's who have excelled at everything they have tried.

I tested at 142 when I was in school. The public schools were a complete waste of time, and that is partially why I am HS-ing my kids. But that isn't the only reason.

Edited June 13, 2011 by SailorMom

[cathmom]

 

 

Does the supposition that people with higher IQ levels would be more likely to homeschool as parents because of their experiences as students in public school hold true for people on this board? What about the contention that most people who homeschool do so for religious reasons?

 

I posted that because it was true for me. School was a vast wasteland of nonintellectual activity, and when we got to the tracking in junior high and high school, they took away the one thing I liked about school, which was helping other students. But there are other reasons I did not like school (sensitivity to fluorescent lights being a big one), and I also homeschool for religious reasons. I don't think "most" people homeschool for religious reasons - maybe in the 80s or 90s this was true but I don't believe it now. Maybe 50%.

[Tarreymere]

I'm sure that some people with average IQ's learn to work harder and study better, but so do some people with above average IQ's. The fact that a person MUST work harder with an average IQ to achieve the same results as someone with a very high IQ (140 and above, for the sake of discussion) does not necessarily correlate to that person doing that hard work. So many factors are involved in educational success. IQ points are helpful, as is persistence.

 

I know quite a few doctors and quite a few folks with PhD's in other fields, and these people without exception would fall into the 2% statistic. Anecdotal evidence, I know, but I don't know of any hard research. Now I am curious, though...(about hard research)

 

I'm curious too. In my experience, people with persistence and determination (turtle people, I suppose) have tended to achieve more academically than people who never had to learn persistence or determination in public school or during the compulsory education years. I also think that people from high achieving 'turtle' families tend to be more successful academically because of the expectations they and their families have for success and because of the modeling in those families of persistence and determination.

 

I come from a long line of rather eccentric 'hare' folk, and while IQ testing has revealed that we should be ruling the world or some such thing no one in my family has ever had much education. No one in my family had much interest in pursuing education beyond high school until my brother and I came along. I wasn't impressed with higher education when I experienced it and I haven't encouraged my children to pursue it. My husband is also in the 'should be ruling the world' class, and he also comes from a working class family and was the first in his family to go to college. Despite being an under-educated 'hare', I have managed to read a number of those dusty classic books about utopian societies and I can tell you that I would much rather not live in a world in which people are sorted into categories based on IQ testing. I think everyone has strengths that are important and should be respected and not all of those strengths are going to involve whatever we are testing when we test IQ.

 

We have already debated the value of higher education and academic credentials a number of times and my take on that is on record here on this board.

[Wheres Toto]

One of the reasons DH and I decided to homeschool was because we were both bored in school. We feel like it was a lot of wasted time, we ended up teaching ourselves for the most part. The other reason is that ds is very quirky and wouldn't fit into a normal school setting well. He seems very smart, he just likes to be creative and would get in trouble all the time (throw in sensory issues and it's not a good fit).

 

I was tested in 7th grade as part of some gifted/talented search program. I scored over 130 but I don't remember the exact number. Dh is definitely smarter than I am. He works as a Research and Development chemist and I am constantly amazed at the stuff he knows and can reason out.

[cathmom]

 

I come from a long line of rather eccentric 'hare' folk, and while IQ testing has revealed that we should be ruling the world or some such thing no one in my family has ever had much education. No one in my family had much interest in pursuing education beyond high school until my brother and I came along. I wasn't impressed with higher education when I experienced it and I haven't encouraged my children to pursue it. My husband is also in the 'should be ruling the world' class, and he also comes from a working class family and was the first in his family to go to college. Despite being an under-educated 'hare', I have managed to read a number of those dusty classic books about utopian societies and I can tell you that I would much rather not live in a world in which people are sorted into categories based on IQ testing. I think everyone has strengths that are important and should be respected and not all of those strengths are going to involve whatever we are testing when we test IQ.

 

We have already debated the value of higher education and academic credentials a number of times and my take on that is on record here on this board.

 

But that's not really true - it's a misconception. I think it's in the book Outliers, Gladwell makes the point that once you have a certain level of intelligence, more intelligence does not necessarily equal better results. That's where hard work and persistence come into play.

[Jen500]

I'm curious too. In my experience, people with persistence and determination (turtle people, I suppose) have tended to achieve more academically than people who never had to learn persistence or determination in public school or during the compulsory education years. I also think that people from high achieving 'turtle' families tend to be more successful academically because of the expectations they and their families have for success and because of the modeling in those families of persistence and determination.

.

 

Rainefox, have you read Outliers? I took it as an entertaining (vs scientific) book, but I think he had a chapter where he concluded that having an IQ score over a certain # (120?) can help a person's success up to a point, but over that IQ score, other factors such as perseverence, hard work, luck, support system were more important for success.

Your questions in a previous post were very interesting!

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I haven't read all of the replies and only have a second to reply but I wnat to point out that there is a phenomenon called the Flynn Effect that has psychologists discussing alteringthe distribution for IQ. The parameters of what was average (100) and gifted (130+) are being questioned. Since the inception of IQ tests there have been steady increases in IQ scores, with the increase averaging slightly over 3 points every ten years. Current data indicates that the average IQ is now somewhere around 115, or higher, depending upon whose research you read, some say average IQ is as high as the high 120's. Some of the ongoing topics include: changing the distribution and/or the standard deviation, changing the levels of giftedness (currently 130+) and retardation (currently -70).

 

There is a wealth of information out there regarding the validity of IQ tests, too much for me to discuss at the moment.

 

With that said - I have had an IQ test (two of them) and both of my children have had IQ tests.

 

One word of caution, though - you cannot judge a person's IQ based on thier occupation. My father was a career enlisted man in the military and then an over the road trucker - his IQ measured over 140. A few years ago a NCY cab driver who had never graduated from high school earned one of the highest IQ scores submitted to MENSA.

[Dmmetler]

In my local homeschooling group, I don't know about parents, but the kids all seem to be at two extremes. Either they're smart enough to be bored in traditional schools, and struggle for that reason enough that parents pull them out, or they're struggling academically enough that the parents pull them out. Or, often, both depending on the subject area. We probably average out to somewhere in the 100 IQ range-but I suspect that the distribution is more a brassiere curve than a bell curve.

[beaners]

I'm sure it's horribly inaccurate, but I had a bit of fun just now finding approximate correlations between SAT or ACT scores and IQs. There are also apparently a ton of societies other than Mensa for high IQs. Neat.

 

Anyways, I'm always surprised by the distribution of IQ scores. (Whether or not they're valid, etc.) I would consider my husband and myself fairly bright, but not too far above average. I would think that my test scores would be attainable by any bright individual. I would think that the things I'm interested in would be accessible for any interested bright individual. I've been informed rather bluntly, on a few occasions, that my expectations are off.

 

I don't know about all doctors, but a friend of mine from high school is in the tail end of finishing his specialization. Our scores were even on the SATs. He may be an exception, but his IQ is well above the original proposed average.

[twoforjoy]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's a correlation between people who choose to homeschool for academic reasons and giftedness. I know one of the reasons I've always been determined was because of how badly I felt the public school system treated me.

 

I never felt badly-treated by the public school system, but I was just bored. Insanely, out-of-my-mind bored, to the point where, when I try to recall my K-12 days, pretty much the only thing I remember is watching the clock and not understanding how it could be moving so slowly. That's absolutely influenced my decision to homeschool.

 

I think everybody in my school was given an IQ test in second grade, to determine if you'd be put in the G&T program. Other than that, I've never taken an official IQ test. I see little reason to have one administered to my kids, as I don't think they provide much if anything in the way of useful information for children who are of average or higher intelligence.

[Dobela]

You know, I just don't like topics like this. I have been sitting here and wondering why. Is it because so many people assume that all homeschoolers are very gifted? Or that because IQ determines superiority or worth somehow? Maybe it has to do with my kids having special needs (learning disabilities) and having heard people make crazy assumptions about them because we homeschool (I must not be teaching well or am neglecting their education because they are not working grades ahead of others). I have IQ scores for myself and my kids. It doesn't change who they are, their learning style, their interests, their potential to succeed, which curriculum works best... It is just another number. My IQ doesn't determine my fitness as a parent or my love for my kids. An IQ score is based on a one time event. It is actually supposed to be given as a range - you scored 100 but it could actually be x points higher or lower.

 

IQ testing was originally designed to be used for student placement in France around 1900. The government had begun free education for everyone and wanted to know which children were 'normal' and which ones were 'inferior' so they could determine appropriate education for all of them. Binet developed a test to determine 'mental age' and to determine who was 'inferior'. Inferior students were not allowed to study with those deemed 'intellectually normal'. Goddard brought the tests to the US and adapted them. However Goddard used the tests to support racial and ethnic inqualities - which was eventually used by the Nazis as well.

[twoforjoy]

IQ testing was originally designed to be used for student placement in France around 1900. The government had begun free education for everyone and wanted to know which children were 'normal' and which ones were 'inferior' so they could determine appropriate education for all of them. Binet developed a test to determine 'mental age' and to determine who was 'inferior'. Inferior students were not allowed to study with those deemed 'intellectually normal'. Goddard brought the tests to the US and adapted them. However Goddard used the tests to support racial and ethnic inqualities - which was eventually used by the Nazis as well.

 

I don't know how true this is, but I'd learned that IQ tests were never intended to categorize people who were of average or above-average intelligence; the tests were primarily designed to classify those of below-average intelligence.

 

My understanding is that IQ tests are actually a pretty good tool for determining the cognitive capabilities of people who are cognitively disabled. Knowing that a child has an IQ of 50 or 60 or 70 can give you a pretty accurate idea of their level of functioning and help to develop an educational plan for them.

 

But, once you get into the normal range and above, all bets are off. IQ simply doesn't provide much useful information at that point. The one exception, AFAIK, would be in cases where you have a child with a high IQ who is performing very poorly academically, which in many cases can indicate a learning disability.

[cathmom]

I never felt badly-treated by the public school system, but I was just bored. Insanely, out-of-my-mind bored, to the point where, when I try to recall my K-12 days, pretty much the only thing I remember is watching the clock and not understanding how it could be moving so slowly. That's absolutely influenced my decision to homeschool.

 

 

 

Yes, time moved very slowly as a child. I am often surprised that my homeschooled children feel, as I do now, that time is flying by. So I came up with the theory that time seeming slow when you're a child is a direct result of being forced to spend a lot of that time in school.

[Tohru]

You know, I just don't like topics like this. I have been sitting here and wondering why. Is it because so many people assume that all homeschoolers are very gifted? Or that because IQ determines superiority or worth somehow?...

 

I'm sorry. No, that's not why I started the discussion. My dh and I were specifically talking about parents that homeschool their kids and couldn't believe that only 2% of homeschool parents were in the upper range since ALL the HS parents we know are exceptionally bright (2% being the overall population quoted from another thread - not mine.)

 

 

Of all this discussion, the thing that bothers me the most is the assumption on occupation linking IQ scores. That's just annoying. There are lots of super smart people that do menial labor jobs. I have a very good friend who scores above 150 and he is literally a genius, but his problem is that he is so smart that he doesn't know what to do with himself. Therefore he finds himself doing menial tasks to pay rent and during his free time, he makes lasers and telescopes, crossbows and computer programs.

 

I know that he is probably an exception, but the stereotyping and labels is what bothers me the most.

[brownie]

IQ is a standard bell curve distribution and therefore the scores are defined to be average at 100 and 2 standard deviations above is by definition "gifted".

 

The Flynn effect occurs...IQ's are gradually rising but this is compensated for every 10 years or so and thus the number correct on the test required to achieve an average or gifted score rises.

 

Group IQ tests are not really valid, just predictors, so tests administered as a class would not count toward the statistics. These statistics are based on the WISC and Stanford-Binet, which also produce slightly different results by the way, because they are different tests and nobody can precisely evaluate intellectual potential.

 

In fact there is some recent research indicating that motivation is a predicting factor of IQ score. Even at our ps where ds attended prior to hsing, only 10% of his class qualified gifted after the 1st attempt at testing. About 90% of our graduating class goes to college and we are in a highly regarded, competitive ps. We are not scio-economically representative of the country. And while that should not theoretically affect IQ, it does mean more than your average number of parents are successful and thus had the intellectual potential to succeed in the 1st place. We seem to have many many kids with IQ's around 120. Brownie

[Dobela]

I don't know how true this is, but I'd learned that IQ tests were never intended to categorize people who were of average or above-average intelligence; the tests were primarily designed to classify those of below-average intelligence.

 

My understanding is that IQ tests are actually a pretty good tool for determining the cognitive capabilities of people who are cognitively disabled. Knowing that a child has an IQ of 50 or 60 or 70 can give you a pretty accurate idea of their level of functioning and help to develop an educational plan for them.

 

But, once you get into the normal range and above, all bets are off. IQ simply doesn't provide much useful information at that point. The one exception, AFAIK, would be in cases where you have a child with a high IQ who is performing very poorly academically, which in many cases can indicate a learning disability.

To a degree this is true, but not completely. If you have a child with an IQ of 50 or 70, you pretty much know that they have low ability academically. The speed at which they can understand and progress thru material is obvious if you work with them, just as it is with any child. What the IQ tests do is give an arbitrary number. At some point someone or some committee has picked at number (say 70) and decided that anyone that has and IQ of that or below can qualify for such and such services. The problem then becomes what about the person who scores 71? They are in just as much need as the person scoring 70, but they are exempted from services because the score is too high. (And yes, when I was teaching I saw this happen). One year 'authorities' in our state lowered the number from 75 to 70. Suddenly many children were unable to receive services because they no longer qualified or had IQs that were not low enough. The needs of the child never changed. Their abilities didn't change. OR say a child is struggling in school, is determined to have an IQ of 80, and is then said to be acheiving in that IQ range in the classroom. Since less achievement is expected of someone with an 80 IQ, the child is not showing any learning deficits or disabilities based on achievement, then that child is denied special services that would prevent him/her from failing or stagnating in education. More often than not they are left in the regular classes with few modifications or supports.

 

IQ tests depend heavily on vision and verbalization. If you have a child with problems in any area, it can skew the scores. My son is a good example of this. When he was going thru the ed psych testing he was also in vision therapy for a variety of significant issues. By the time we were finished with the psych testing the PhD stated that she didn't feel her scores were accurate because of the visual process and tracking issues my son was having and that the WISC depended heavily on visual cues.