How important is calculus for a possible STEM major?

[mamato4]

Ds' leanings are toward STEM, though it may change since he is only in 8th grade. But I'd like to find out how important is it to have taken calculus in high school for a possible STEM major. Will it be a hindrance for him if he applies to college with pre-calc as his highest level math?

 

DH wants ds to go to ps next year. So after talking to the guidance counselor, we found out that the school only offers geometry honors in 9th grade; regular geometry in 10th. They will not let a 9th grader take the 10th grade geometry class. Geometry honors are open only to those who have already been tagged in middle school and have taken Alg 1 in 8th grade. Ds did take a placement test last month, and according to the school, he placed into algebra 1, accelerated class. (There are 3 levels in the school: regular, level 1 or accelerated, and level 2 or honors.)

 

So by following the school's timeline, ds will finish senior year with pre-calc. Hence my question about calculus.

 

Sorry for the longwindedness, but I though the explanation would be of help.

 

Anna

[Tullia]

It is early, though, so you might sample a variety. I've heard complaints from several instructors that a fair number of college freshmen who have calc. on their hs transcripts don't fare all that well in college. IMO, a solid precalc course is more important. My dh didn't have time for calc in high school; the school offered a summer calc course after hs graduation for STEM majors.

[Julie in MN]

My oldest (never homeschooled) had some similarities to your ds. He came into high school (9th) having already completed Algebra I & II, and the only geometry they offered was for kids needing a credit, and they were literally coloring shapes when he tried the class :confused:

 

He went into their math sequence (called "core plus" or some such thing) and eventually a math teacher singled out a couple of kids for independent study in precalc, then calc, then community college calc. It technically isn't allowed to have independent study in ps, because students must have a teacher, but he somehow made it work.

 

So I wouldn't say you don't know the whole story yet and more options may surface.

 

But that said, my oldest still started with calc 1 in college because he wanted to follow the standard courseload and learn the engineering way. So doing calc ahead of time didn't benefit him to a great degree. I think maybe doing at the community college did look good on the transcript, but didn't affect his placement.

 

In essence, I wouldn't worry too much. His math test scores will be more important, and I don't think those require calculus.

 

Julie

[actuary]

Speaking as someone who majored in math, I think it depends a lot on how competitive a college you are looking at. A lot of the top colleges, in my experience, expect calculus to be taken in high school, so the chances of getting in without having taken calculus are a lot slimmer (I'm talking about top 25 to top 50 schools, that's all I know about). And then if you did get in, then you would be competing against kids who had almost all taken up to BC Calc in high school (if you were doing a STEM major) so if you did start with Calc 1, most of the other kids would be retaking calculus, not doing it for the first time.

 

It was pretty much completely unheard of at my university for a STEM major not to have taken calculus in high school.

 

This is based only based on my experience though; YMMV.

[creekland]

In my experience from oodles of kids in our high school who come back to tell their story, the majority who do the best have taken Calc in high school, but repeated it in college. I think it's a combo of high school Calc not being as in depth as college Calc and transitioning adjustments their freshman year. I've seen it enough that it's what I plan to do with each of my guys. When I mentioned it to advisers during college visits every single one agreed that this works the best. Note that they might have been agreeing with me as they were still selling me on their school/program, but, they seemed sincere.

 

Oldest did Calc his senior year here at home and we opted to skip the AP test. He placed out of freshman Calc at his college (via their placement test), but ended up not needing Calc anyway due to changing his mind about what he wanted to major in (Economics to Business & International Development).

 

Middle will be doing Calc next year (his senior year). Whether he takes the AP test or not will depend on what school he ends up going to and their recommendation. He wants med school after undergrad, so we need to take that into consideration too.

 

Youngest appears to be heading toward a Botany major in college. He may never get to, nor need, Calc.

 

However, since you mentioned wanting a STEM major, I'd be doing some sort of Calc in high school. Calc can be a tough class if the first time you see it is when you're also adjusting to college life.

[creekland]

Sorry, got distracted and forgot to mention a possible solution for you. Mathematically, Alg 2 and Geometry can be taken at the same time. Will your school allow this? Ours does. It's one way kids who decide they want more math later in their schooling careers can "catch up" to being able to do Calc.

[memphispeg]

Our ps has math placement tests available the first week of school for kids who have studied subjects over the summer. For example, if you studied Geometry so you could advance to Alg. 2, you take the Geo test and if you do ok you take Alg. 2 during the school year. Some kids take Geo during the year and do Alg. 2 on their own so they can get into Pre-calc. the following year and the Calc. BC during Jr. year.

My dd qualified for an "AP math track" and took Alg. 1 in 8th, Geo in 9th, Alg. 2 in 10th, Pre-calc in 11th, Calc BC in 12th. She took the AP exam and got into Calc 3 her frosh year in college. She did not like the math dept. so, she did not pursue math any further. She is a philosophy major b/c she feels it taps similar skills. If she had been a STEM major, (but not a math major) she would have been "done" with Math after Calc. 3. She felt that the biggest drawback to taking Calc. 3 in college was that the teaching/learning expectations were so different from high school. She had had really excellent professional teachers in high school so, she did well.

[8filltheheart]

If she had been a STEM major, (but not a math major) she would have been "done" with Math after Calc. 3.

 

I think it really depends on the STEM major. Engineers are typically not done after cal 3, nor physics majors.

 

OP, most college 4 yr plans start with cal their first semester. If they aren't capable of doing cal1 their first semester, it completely throws off their ability to take the rest of their college sequence b/c the upper level courses are completely dependent on their lower level courses. (for example, my ds needed diffEQ in order to take his jr level engineering classes. He wanted to take them his sophomore yr b/c he was ahead (he had taken chemistry and cal prior to graduating.) He ended up taking diffEQ during summer school so that he could take those courses.

 

He had a friend that needed to take pre-cal 2 (most colleges have 2 pre-cal semesters and 3 cal semesters) his freshman yr even though he had completed pre-cal in high school b/c he didn't place into their cal course. He couldn't take the same course work as the other engineering students b/c he was off sequence. It also ended up weeding him out of the engineering courses b/c he was competing against kids with much stronger math backgrounds than he and they were simply more advanced than he was.

Edited June 12, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[beaners]

I got into a reasonable good school as a Physics major without calculus. I did have good test scores. Now...I wasn't very successful in my 2 years at that school. That was more due to not going to classes (who knew you actually had to do that?) than to anything related to my math background.

 

It sounds like the planned schedule for your student is:

 

9th Algebra 1, accelerated

10th Geometry (not honors)

11th ???

12th Pre-calc

 

What is the course for junior year? Is it something that he could take during the summer at a CC and then be able to do his pre-calc class starting in the fall of his junior year instead of senior year?

[emubird]

I don't know that it matters all that much. I got into MIT without Calc. And these days, isn't the rumor that MIT requires their entering freshman to take Calc whether they've had it or not? (Anyone have verification of this?)

 

"Lower" tier colleges that I have contact with don't seem to mind if students only come in with pre-calc. For many students, that's the better way to go, as it may give more time for their mathematical brain to mature before they struggle with calc. But if he finishes up his junior or senior year of high school and wants to accelerate, he could take the pre-calc and/or calculus at summer school through a community college if that's available in your area.

 

My only concern would be the accuracy of the placement test your son took. If, knowing your son, you agree with their assessment, then I wouldn't worry about it. But if your gut feeling is that he's done with Alg 1 and ready to move on to geometry, it's possible he might crash and burn in Alg1 out of sheer boredom.

 

Some assessment tests are accurate. Some are geared more to stuffing kids into whatever classes the school would like to have them in, regardless of where the student actually is. Also some kids, even if they know the material, can't do well on those sort of tests.

[emubird]

I got into a reasonable good school as a Physics major without calculus. I did have good test scores. Now...I wasn't very successful in my 2 years at that school. That was more due to not going to classes (who knew you actually had to do that?) than to anything related to my math background.

 

It sounds like the planned schedule for your student is:

 

9th Algebra 1, accelerated

10th Geometry (not honors)

11th ???

12th Pre-calc

 

What is the course for junior year? Is it something that he could take during the summer at a CC and then be able to do his pre-calc class starting in the fall of his junior year instead of senior year?

 

In many schools, 11th grade is Alg2/Trig.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Sorry, got distracted and forgot to mention a possible solution for you. Mathematically, Alg 2 and Geometry can be taken at the same time. Will your school allow this? Ours does. It's one way kids who decide they want more math later in their schooling careers can "catch up" to being able to do Calc.

Another solution - I took Pre-Calc the summer after 11th grade in high school (many, many years ago), so that I could take Calculus in 12th grade. Here, students can take summer classes online at the very least.

[Pegasus]

I think it is much better for a student to hit Freshman year with a very solid understanding of math through precalculus than to have already tackled calculus. I'm not familiar with the Ivies and similar top tier schools but our state flagship school has STEM majors take calculus as Freshman.

 

DD will have time to take calculus in high school but our current plans are to do precalculus at home in 11th grade and then have her take the 2 precalculus courses at the community college in 12th grade.

 

Pegasus

[regentrude]

I teach physics at a university. By far the most important math skill for success is a solid grounding in algebra, and the students who fail for lack of math are failing because their algebra/precalc is not rock solid, NOT because they did not have calculus in high school.

Whether your student takes calc in high school or not, expect that most STEM majors have to retake calculus at the university. A prior exposure to calc is certainly beneficial, but taking it in high school usually does not let them skip calc at the university. In fact, I would discourage a student with AP calc who would be allowed to skip from doing so; since the calc 1 is part of a three semester series, it is better to take the whole series at the university.

[actuary]

I don't know that it matters all that much. I got into MIT without Calc. And these days, isn't the rumor that MIT requires their entering freshman to take Calc whether they've had it or not? (Anyone have verification of this?)

 

 

 

At least for the the county that I came from, the algebra in 9th grade, pre-calc in 12th grade was the least rigorous/accelerated track for math that you could do. So it looked really bad to top colleges if you chose that...from what I've heard from college admissions people, a lot of it is also dependent on what is available at your school. If there were more advanced options available and you didn't take them, then for a top tier college that sets you below the competition. Whereas if your school didn't even offer calculus, they wouldn't hold that against you.

 

I think there are two separate issues here - the issue of college admissions to a top tier college nowadays without calculus in high school, which in my personal experience is really unheard of, and the issue of whether to retake calculus in college which plenty of people do.

 

This is just from my experience though - I graduated from college within the past year.

[actuary]

In fact, I would discourage a student with AP calc who would be allowed to skip from doing so; since the calc 1 is part of a three semester series, it is better to take the whole series at the university.

 

I know professors usually give that advice but I think it depends on the student a lot. I skipped the Calc I and II classes and didn't suffer for it, my older brother skipped a huge sequence of undergraduate math because he had already done a lot of it in 8th grade/high school. I just think each student should carefully consider how deep their understanding is. Because for some, retaking the class would be really boring whereas being able to start with some new material would be engaging and interesting.

[Teachin'Mine]

If you feel that your son has had a good solid Algebra I course and knows the material well, I'd be speaking with the school and requesting permission for him to retake the test just prior to the start of school. He could spend the summer brushing up on his algebra I - hopefully using their text so he can cover all areas that they'll test. If they agree to this, I would expect the test in August to be more difficult than the one he's already taken. ;) This would help to put him on more of the path you're hoping he'll be on.

 

A question I have is why is your husband advocating for ps instead of homeschooling? As you know, homeschooling allows the flexibility to get as much, or as little, done as you and the student are willing and able.

[mamato4]

but we had already come home so I didn't get to ask those questions. I'll call the guidance counselor again to see if either of these are possible. Thanks!

[mamato4]

Junior year would be algebra 2

[Maryalice]

All interesting replies. But .... of course... all children and situations are different... :-)

 

My always-hsed dau did not have Calculus in highschool, barely got her to get through pre-calc. She graduated summa cum laude, BS Math and is now working on her graduate math, probably end up with a PhD. Go figure. I always remember the line from some movie. If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans. I think that sometimes we, as hs moms, overplan our kids.

 

darfc

(ducking and running for cover)

[mamato4]

Interesting suggestion about retaking the test...We'll have to decide on this option quickly since school lets out next week and no one will be available until August.

 

As for DH wanting to put the kids into ps for high school, it's a long story. But it's something both of us have prayed about and this is where God is leading us right now.

 

:001_smile:

[Elizabeth in WA]

I don't know that it matters all that much. I got into MIT without Calc. And these days, isn't the rumor that MIT requires their entering freshman to take Calc whether they've had it or not? (Anyone have verification of this?)

 

As best I can tell, MIT does calc I & II in a single semester that assumes students have already had it in high school and just need some more theoretical background - and that is the lower track versus beginning with the "honors" calc sequence that is essentially analysis.

[8filltheheart]

I teach physics at a university. By far the most important math skill for success is a solid grounding in algebra, and the students who fail for lack of math are failing because their algebra/precalc is not rock solid, NOT because they did not have calculus in high school.

Whether your student takes calc in high school or not, expect that most STEM majors have to retake calculus at the university. A prior exposure to calc is certainly beneficial, but taking it in high school usually does not let them skip calc at the university. In fact, I would discourage a student with AP calc who would be allowed to skip from doing so; since the calc 1 is part of a three semester series, it is better to take the whole series at the university.

 

I'm another one who is going to advocate......it depends on the student. When my rising 12th grader goes to college, I am definitely going to suggest re-taking maybe back to pre-cal 2 simply b/c she is a good math student, but definitely not a strong math student.

 

My rising 10th grader is strong in math. Going back to cal1 at a typical university would be pointless. However, if he goes to some place like MIT or Stanford, going back will still be a challenge. ;)

Edited June 13, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[asta]

I teach physics at a university. By far the most important math skill for success is a solid grounding in algebra, and the students who fail for lack of math are failing because their algebra/precalc is not rock solid, NOT because they did not have calculus in high school.

Whether your student takes calc in high school or not, expect that most STEM majors have to retake calculus at the university. A prior exposure to calc is certainly beneficial, but taking it in high school usually does not let them skip calc at the university. In fact, I would discourage a student with AP calc who would be allowed to skip from doing so; since the calc 1 is part of a three semester series, it is better to take the whole series at the university.

 

This is what I'm reading all over the press (in a word): despite what actuary wrote, it appears that colleges have "caught on" to the fact that schools aren't "finishing the books", that grade inflation is out of control, and that, well, a heck of a lot of students don't really know the subjects they are coming in with "As" on their transcripts for. <awkward sentence structure there, sorry> Heck - someone wrote a post here talking about college kids who couldn't add or subtract without a calculator!

 

People are gaming SATs and SATIIs via intensive, years long "teach to the test programs" (yes, they exist - my nieces were both in them, in their public school, from 8th grade forward) - the very tests that were supposed to be the great decider / equalizer - and colleges simply don't know what the baseline is. It's easier to say "YOU! Want to enter our ______ program? Here are your courses. Start swimming."

 

It's rather sad, I think. I remember kids at my high school who DID bust their buns in calc and finish their books. They went on to prestigious unis and did well. Of course that was, um... a REALLY long time ago...

 

 

asta

[Gwen in VA]

I think these days at more elite colleges high school calculus is more-or-less expected. If your child is looking at more elite engineering schools, I think not having calculus would be a serious weakness in the high school transcript.

 

Even some liberal arts schools like William and Mary are very open about the fact that they expect (though do not require) their incoming freshmen to have had calculus. (W&M states this on their admissions page but also emphasizes it in admissions talks.)

 

And do remember that the suggestion to retake calculus in college does depend on the child. I have some kids who found calculus ridiculously easy and would have died of boredom at having to retake it. They started in calculus 3 and found that class to be an easy A. So know your child!

[FaithManor]

What is his likely major? There are pockets of majors within STEM in which it would not be necessary to have calculus in high school. Obviously not engineering or physics, but computer science, biology, veterinary science.... These students all perform well and in general, get into their majors taking calc 1 as freshman but will not necessarily need to go any higher.

 

I do agree with Creekland. If it can be fitted in without short-changing the algebra/trig skills than exposure to the topics can really make freshman college calc go better. But, I don't think it is wise to attempt to go to calc 2 out of high school calc. It is a difficult topic and for physics/chem/engineering majors, not having really solid (I can practically do this in my sleep) calc 1 skills, it is a little scary.

 

No matter what, everything from geometry forward hinges on having that all important mastery of algebra and too many kids rush from one math to the next without really getting that algebra ingrained into their long term memory...without memorizing the formulas, etc. That is the worst because it causes many, many science/math related majors to end their freshman year of college completely frustrated and questioning their own "smarts" which then descends, often, into switching out of STEM because playing catch up on those lower level math skills, algebra -trig, will require so much effort and the march through the major waits for no one. It usually means taking a year off from getting those prerequisites completed and adds another year of school onto everything. Of course another year of school can be financially catastrophic for some kids and an awful lot of merit scholarship is not extended into a fifth year.

 

So, my advice is to always go for mastery first. If that means trig/pre-calc is the highest level math completed in high school, so be it. Even if the top tier schools snub your student, so what? An awful lot of successful tier two STEM schools will still embrace your kid and with the coming wave of retirement in physics, engineering, chemistry, and bio-chem, bio-physics, aerospace technologies, and computer tech, there will be jobs for your student. Many, many schools have struggled through the last decade to attract students into these majors. NASA along with Boeing, Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, Dow Chemical, and several others are facing a mass exodus of retiring scientists/engineers and do not see replacements on the horizon even if they ship in more visa workers from overseas. Of course, with security issues, many positions cannot be filled by non-citizen workers so they can't just arbitrarily fill many posts with imported STEM candidates. We listened to a very long talk on this problem from Raytheon and NASA officials at the Team America Rocketry Challenge - a youth based model rocketry design competition with big scholarships offered and lots of college scouts in attendance. It was astounding to us to hear just how worried these aerospace tech firms are about their companies when they do not see enough kids going into STEM related fields in order to fill the future need.

 

So, I think that in the long run, if we mums and dads keep mastery in mind with lots and lots of encouragement, our geeky, science kids are going to be just fine even if they don't get into the likes of MIT and Emory Riddle. It's hard for me to imagine that I just typed that because I have a very engineering/computer tech oriented son who is less of a math lover than he needs to be and whose dream is M.I.T. While I am willing to work hard to help him towards that goal, I also have to admit that he might be far better served, taking a slower pace through algebra 2 and trig and then, well, we get in whatever calc we get in even if that is in the summer between graduation and college and even if he doesn't get into his dream school. Given the huge placement rate of graduates from Michigan Technological University in Houghton, a college a bit more bent on looking for the creative - think outside the box student - and not as competitive so willing to bend on things like 4.0's and nearly perfect SAT/ACT scores, I know there is a place out there for my kid with or without high school calc.

 

Faith

[asta]

Faith,

 

You just made me giggle: Emory Riddle.

 

Emory

 

Embry Riddle

 

 

They're both hard as heck!

 

 

a

[creekland]

This is what I'm reading all over the press (in a word): despite what actuary wrote, it appears that colleges have "caught on" to the fact that schools aren't "finishing the books", that grade inflation is out of control, and that, well, a heck of a lot of students don't really know the subjects they are coming in with "As" on their transcripts for. <awkward sentence structure there, sorry> Heck - someone wrote a post here talking about college kids who couldn't add or subtract without a calculator!

 

asta

 

This is definitely what goes on in our ps at the high school level. We've had students get As in Calc and Stats (no AP tests) who then test into remedial classes at their colleges. It's sad, but way too common.

[FaithManor]

Faith,

 

You just made me giggle: Emory Riddle.

 

Emory

 

Embry Riddle

 

 

They're both hard as heck!

 

 

a

 

OH GOOD GRIEF! This is what I get for not taking my Allegra D allergy medicine until 10:00 a.m. tooooooooo mcuh fuzzy brain and sneezing. :D

 

You are so right...both are hard schools to get into! Thank goodness there are still a few good STEM schools out there that will tutor my kid through cal 1, 2, 3, and beyond because he really does have talent.

 

Faith

[mamato4]

I really don't know what his major will be. He's been in the Lego robotics for four years and said he wants to go into the high school level robotics. This has been the only activity that he is eager to pursue every year, hence my thinking of him going into the STEM field.

 

Faith and Creekland, your reminder about mastery is something I need to keep chanting to myself. I think I'm thinking way too much into this and making myself overly anxious...

 

Thanks to everyone who shared their words of wisdom. Your answers are helping me to think more logically.

 

Anna

[KarenC]

I took Calculus in high school and again in college. I was not a strong math student, but I worked much harder than most students in my high school and college classes.

 

I had a great Calculus teacher in high school. I had a TA at the local university and he may have been a great teacher, but English was his second language and I often had a very hard time understanding him. Thank goodness I had taken calculus before and had a basic idea of what I was doing. I would have been totally lost without my high school background.

 

My advice would be to make sure your student has a strong background in algebra and pre-calculus. But, also take at least one semester of calculus in high school. Double up on math if necessary, or work through the summer.

 

Karen

[Nan in Mass]

My husband took one of his calcs twice because he couldn't understand the grad student teaching it. (On the other hand, the best teacher I had in college, teaching methods wise, was a foreign grad student. He taught by going over the whole class quickly at the beginning, then slowly, then did a quick review at the end. Everyone was very confused until he explained what he was doing. It was great, though, once you knew that was what was happening.)

Edited June 14, 2011 by Nan in Mass