Your Opinion on Marriage

[Scarlett]

Divorce is legal in the United States. It's a fact you may not like, but it's still a fact. I don't see how scripture in this context is relevant to the topic of marriage (any marriage) as recognized by the state.

 

 

As we do with many threads we have expanded the topic. Many many posts in this thread are about much more than the law of the land.

[genie]

I wasn't comparing or equating homosexual love to what I feel for my friends. You (I think it was you) said I was obsessing about the sex of it. I said without the sex it isn't homosexuality...and I thought we were discussing homosexuality.

 

Yes. Which is exactly why I and others say you don't understand homosexuality. Even people who disagree with me are leaving me comments telling me you aren't expressing yourself well.

 

I guess I'm going to take Mrs. Mungo's stance on debating with you (as I admittedly should have many posts ago...)

[Phred]

and THIS is the crux of the communication problem--

you want to ignore everything we've said, dismiss it, and use your imagination :)

 

 

I am absolutely convinced that the kind of love one has for another person does not change what scripture says about that kind of love.

 

If one is married and ends up feeling they "married the wrong person" because they meet someone else to whom they have a stronger attraction, scripture still says they have an obligation to their spouse, and exhorts others to "teach them to love." Acting on that deep attraction is simply not scriptural.

 

If a homosexual person truly feels a deep attraction and love for another person of the same-sex, scripture is still clear about that too.

 

So while you "can't imagine [we'd] be able to discriminate against it," you are showing by YOUR words that you simply -still- do NOT understand our position at all. regardless the 400 posts we've had trying to communicate our beliefs and intentions.

Sigh.

 

I understand you only too clearly. You (as in you and Scarlett) are using scripture as an excuse to dehumanize homosexuals so that you can discriminate against them in good conscience. This is the truth of the matter. The Bible is a book written by bronze-age nomads. You believe it's further inspired by YHWH. So it carries weight. But instead of just living your life by it's teachings, you somehow expect that the rest of us are going to be affected by it and will not mind.

 

I do mind. You see, as nice and intelligent as you are you just can't put yourself in the place of the people you're harming. The gazillion posts you've made show this. And since you refuse to do that you can't see that they're human too. You can't elevate them beyond scripture... nor, I believe, do you wish to.

 

So I do mind. I mind that human beings are being harmed here. I understand exactly what you're saying and why. I simply do. not. agree. This is a secular country we live in with a secular constitution and we should not be allowing bronze-age mysticism to cloud our thinking. Or twentieth century ick factor either. A person's sexual orientation, like their race, should no more matter to whether they are allowed to be married than their hair color.

[Audrey]

A person's sexual orientation, like their race, should no more matter to whether they are allowed to be married than their hair color.

 

Whoa! Back up the horses there, bucko!

 

Are you trying to tell me that people with blond hair should be allowed to marry each other???? Because I'm telling you right now that is an abomination!! ;)

[genie]

Whoa! Back up the horses there, bucko!

 

Are you trying to tell me that people with blond hair should be allowed to marry each other???? Because I'm telling you right now that is an abomination!! ;)

 

How about if one of them dyed their hair brown in an attempt to deny who they are so they could fit into your mold more acceptably?

[Phred]

Whoa! Back up the horses there, bucko!

 

Are you trying to tell me that people with blond hair should be allowed to marry each other???? Because I'm telling you right now that is an abomination!! ;)

Wouldn't blondes have to get married in a mall anyway? And how would they both find it on the same day at the same time? "Like, is this place?"

 

Hehe...

[SusanG]

Sigh.

 

I understand you only too clearly. You (as in all of you) are using scripture as an excuse to dehumanize homosexuals so that you can discriminate against them in good conscience. This is the truth of the matter. The Bible is a book written by bronze-age nomads. You believe it's further inspired by YHWH. So it carries weight. But instead of just living your life by it's teachings, you somehow expect that the rest of us are going to be affected by it and will not mind.

 

I do mind. You see, as nice and intelligent as you are you just can't put yourself in the place of the people you're harming. The gazillion posts you've made show this. And since you refuse to do that you can't see that they're human too. You can't elevate them beyond scripture... nor, I believe, do you wish to.

 

So I do mind. I mind that human beings are being harmed here. I understand exactly what you're saying and why. I simply do. not. agree. This is a secular country we live in with a secular constitution and we should not be allowing bronze-age mysticism to cloud our thinking. Or twentieth century ick factor either. A person's sexual orientation, like their race, should no more matter to whether they are allowed to be married than their hair color.

 

This was beautiful, the best post of the gazillion in this thread. I agree 100% and only wish I could express my feelings as clearly and eloquently as you just did.

[Phred]

I do not believe that I am doing this, Phred. Will you show me, please, where you believe I have done so and how?

Since when are you Christian Eliana?

 

Please be a little more careful - you left off your 'I believe' in the first sentence so it appears you are stating your opinion on this as fact.

I'm sorry, for future reference, which bronze-age people wrote the Bible?

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Since when are you Christian Eliana?

 

I have to say, I'm with Eliana here. You need to be careful slinging around the "all of you." Er... rather, it pisses me off to be lumped, even when I know good and well it doesn't apply to ME. It's a "thing" with some of us here -- we identify too strongly with the other boardmates to not speak up with the broad brush starts painting.

 

And there are Christians on this board and on this thread who would completely agree with you -- perhaps not about inspired scripture, but about freedom and government and what you would consider respectful treatment of their fellow man. (And some of *them* don't even think homosexual action is anything to cheer about, but see civil law as separate from religious law.)

 

Too broad a brush, I think.

[Mrs Mungo]

I have to say, I'm with Eliana here. You need to be careful slinging around the "all of you." Er... rather, it pisses me off to be lumped, even when I know good and well it doesn't apply to ME. It's a "thing" with some of us here -- we identify too strongly with the other boardmates to not speak up with the broad brush starts painting.

 

And there are Christians on this board and on this thread who would completely agree with you -- perhaps not about inspired scripture, but about freedom and government and what you would consider respectful treatment of their fellow man. (And some of *them* don't even think homosexual action is anything to cheer about, but see civil law as separate from religious law.)

 

Too broad a brush, I think.

 

Agreed. I'm a Christian and I (mostly) agree with your stance on this issue, Phred.

[Phred]

I have to say, I'm with Eliana here. You need to be careful slinging around the "all of you." Er... rather, it pisses me off to be lumped, even when I know good and well it doesn't apply to ME. It's a "thing" with some of us here -- we identify too strongly with the other boardmates to not speak up with the broad brush starts painting.

 

And there are Christians on this board and on this thread who would completely agree with you -- perhaps not about inspired scripture, but about freedom and government and what you would consider respectful treatment of their fellow man. (And some of *them* don't even think homosexual action is anything to cheer about, but see civil law as separate from religious law.)

 

Too broad a brush, I think.

Post edited to be much more specific. There were several posters who were jumping on that bandwagon, I meant to refer to them. I'll simply refer to Peek and Scarlett as they are the only two who are holding forth at this time.

[Joanne]

If one is married and ends up feeling they "married the wrong person" because they meet someone else to whom they have a stronger attraction, scripture still says they have an obligation to their spouse, and exhorts others to "teach them to love." Acting on that deep attraction is simply not scriptural.

 

Peek, I wanted to highlight this and add an "I agree". While I don't embrace much of the conservative Christian churches' response to the issues presented by homosexuality, I do agree with the above - even in cases of changing or realized sexual orientation.

 

 

I do think that the superficial, easy divorce is exaggerated in terms of frequency (most people don't share the details with many) but I agree that commitment = commitment.

[Jenny in Atl]

:)

*Sigh* From my point of view? None. I hold that the Torah (Written and Oral) was given by G-d to Moshe Rabbeinu on Har Sinai. ...but you knew that, didn't you? [Neviim and Kesuvin (Prophets and Writings) are of course, not included in that - just Chumash] I suspect you of teasing me, Phred. :)

 

 

 

This is my understanding as well, so where do some get the idea/belief that the Bible pre-dates man? :confused:

[Phred]

:) Oh, Phred! (I don't know how to add the right doohickeys to show the affectionate exasperation in my tone here :) )

 

Obviously I am not a Xtian, but your post seemed to refer to those using "scripture" in this discussion... I haven't used Xtian scriptures, But I have used my own.

Eliana, your knowledge far exceeds my own here. My post referred to those trying to justify the mistreatment of homosexuals with scripture. Doesn't Jewish tradition hold that a person's well-being would come before any scriptural meaning?

 

*Sigh* From my point of view? None. I hold that the Torah (Written and Oral) was given by G-d to Moshe Rabbeinu on Har Sinai. ...but you knew that, didn't you? [Neviim and Kesuvin (Prophets and Writings) are of course, not included in that - just Chumash] I suspect you of teasing me, Phred. :)

Just a little. I do know what you believe... I find it much more palatable than some others.

 

Seriously, I think you should be as careful throwing your certainties around as you would like me to be of mine. [i'm not offended, btw... just concerned that your choice on this is more likely to create hard feelings and pointless arguments than meaningful dialog.]

As always, good advice. Can't guarantee I'll always manage to take it. :001_smile:

[Scarlett]

My post referred to those trying to justify the mistreatment of homosexuals with scripture. Doesn't Jewish tradition hold that a person's well-being would come before any scriptural meaning?

 

For clarity, I need to point out that I am not about mistreating homosexuals. I am responsible for myself and they are responsible for themselves. I have zero desire to control or force them to change in any way. I am pointing to scripture to explain my feelings about it based upon those scriptures.

[Scarlett]

Even people who disagree with me are leaving me comments telling me you aren't expressing yourself well.

 

Hmmmm.....I'm not sure why you went to the trouble to tell me this. Seems a little mean spirited.