My recent epiphany about unschooling

[sassenach]

My epiphany about unschooling is that it it cannot be defined therefore cannot be understood.

 

No matter what anyone says about unschooling someone will come and point out how wrong he is.

 

:lol: :iagree:

[cindergretta]

Wow, that is sad. Notice how it's completely the MOM'S fault. SHE is the one with the problem, according to them. Let the kid play video games for twelve hours a day, all night long if he wants. Don't require him to do chores. Don't expect anything from him.

 

If he keeps this up, I'd hate to be married to him someday.

 

A neighbor of mine was married to her second husband for less than two years. He was addicted to video games. It CAN be a very serious thing.

 

If he keeps it up, I doubt he will have to worry about being married someday. :(

 

I keep thinking about this. I don't think it is a homeschooling or unschooling issue. I think it is a neglectful parenting issue on which the parent was able to slap a rather indefinable label.

[calandalsmom]

If he keeps it up, I doubt he will have to worry about being married someday. :(

 

I keep thinking about this. I don't think it is a homeschooling or unschooling issue. I think it is a neglectful parenting issue on which the parent was able to slap a rather indefinable label.

 

unschoolers dont typically seek to control their kids time.

[TracyP]

Ugh, that gaming thread just makes me ill.

 

I definitely think unschooling needs a definition. I was very interested in unschooling at one point but I knew I could not handle the work involved in making sure my kids were actually learning something. I think some can unschool the right way. These people are not "schooling" in any way, shape or form. Like pp said, this is NOT SCHOOLING, not unschooling.

[calandalsmom]

Unschooling IS living life without school.

 

It insists upon your child determining what they want to learn and when. At its most basic unschooling is exactly what you decsribed and disagree ith.

 

School is an artificial construct imposed upon kids. Societies without schools still yield functioning adults, by their societal measures. Kids imitate adults naturally and learn through play.

[cindergretta]

unschoolers dont typically seek to control their kids time.

 

I totally disagree with this statement. Totally. I was an unschooler for a few years. It didn't mesh well for me or my dc. But I have several friends who are unschoolers. And they do control their dc's time. Their dc have chores and routines and everything. They aren't required to follow scope and sequence or do workbooks, but they also aren't allowed to veg in front of the TV, either. (Or the computer)

 

The families I know who follow unschooling have their dc living life, cooking, shopping, cleaning, sewing, gardening, and READING tons of books. They are learning life skills and whatever subjects snag their interest. But they are NOT sitting around in front of a computer getting addicted to gaming.

 

Gaming addiction is very real. Make no mistake.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Well, according to John Holt and the other early coiners of the term, we are all unschoolers.

 

By the old definition of 'unschooling,' any kid who doesn't have to sit in a brick-and-mortar educational facility all day is unschooled.

 

Not schooled.

 

Not necessarily uneducated, just unschooled.

 

It was a good term. My highly educated boys are unschooled, even though they are no strangers to being asked to concentrate, study hard, and finish a course of study.

 

I don't know why the newbie unschoolers who have no intention of actually raising children decided to co-opt that term.

 

I understand why they didn't call it 'unlearning,' because evidently any human who is not asleep is responding to stimuli (and some call that 'learning').

 

I understand why they didn't call it 'unparenting', although that's how it looks to the rest of the world, because they are indeed making choices for their child's life (and some call any interaction 'parenting').

 

But why co-opt 'unschooling?' It would have been nice if that word had been left as John Holt's legacy to all homeschoolers.

 

Just my two cents, probably worth less than that....

[Cindyz]

unschoolers dont typically seek to control their kids time.

 

 

But there is a difference between putting the child in an educationally rich environment with musical instruments, art supplies, tons of books, math games, etc etc...and saying, "Have at it!", and letting them play video games all day for weeks straight. I'm sorry but I think these parents are severely misguided. Did they just let their kids crawl out into traffic when they were babies? Of course not because they were too young to know that it was unsafe. This situation is the same. Children need guidance.

[calandalsmom]

I totally disagree with this statement. Totally. I was an unschooler for a few years. It didn't mesh well for me or my dc. But I have several friends who are unschoolers. And they do control their dc's time. Their dc have chores and routines and everything. They aren't required to follow scope and sequence or do workbooks, but they also aren't allowed to veg in front of the TV, either. (Or the computer)

 

The families I know who follow unschooling have their dc living life, cooking, shopping, cleaning, sewing, gardening, and READING tons of books. They are learning life skills and whatever subjects snag their interest. But they are NOT sitting around in front of a computer getting addicted to gaming.

 

Gaming addiction is very real. Make no mistake.

 

Ok, RADICAL unschoolers don't seek to control their kids time. Sandra Dodd is a radical unschooler. That Unschooler network is radical friendly if not radical based.

[calandalsmom]

But there is a difference between putting the child in an educationally rich environment with musical instruments, art supplies, tons of books, math games, etc etc...and saying, "Have at it!", and letting them play video games all day for weeks straight. I'm sorry but I think these parents are severely misguided. Did they just let their kids crawl out into traffic when they were babies? Of course not because they were too young to know that it was unsafe. This situation is the same. Children need guidance.

 

That's where you are wrong, in the eyes of many a radical unschooler. You are making a value judgement which they would NOT accept.

 

 

Further, the other pushback you'd be getting from a radical unschooler who was gaming neutral is the idea that just bc someone does something for 4 weeks doesnt mean ts a lifetime commitment. Esp at age 10. Or 15.

[Carpe]

School is an artificial construct imposed upon kids. Societies without schools still yield functioning adults, by their societal measures. Kids imitate adults naturally and learn through play.

 

In those other cultures kids are exposed to how their parents provide for them. In North America most parents go off to work and kids only see their leisure activities. And they mimic what they see.

 

If we all were farmers, entrepreneurs, or able to bring the kids to work every day, unschooling would work for nearly all families (there are bound to be type A parents that couldn't deal, and LD kids who need more structure).

[calandalsmom]

In those other cultures kids are exposed to how their parents provide for them. In North America most parents go off to work and kids only see their leisure activities. And they mimic what they see.

 

If we all were farmers, entrepreneurs, or able to bring the kids to work every day, unschooling would work for nearly all families (there are bound to be type A parents that couldn't deal, and LD kids who need more structure).

 

I think this is a useful point.

 

Kelly Lovejoy's husband is military, iirc. Sort out how that worked, right? She is delightful.

http://sandradodd.com/benrules

 

http://sandradodd.com/kellylovejoy/

 

"What exactly is unschooling? I thought it was another name for homeschooling."

 

All poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles.

All unschooling is homeschooling, but all homeschooling isn’t unschooling.

 

Unschooling is legally a type of homeschooling.

 

Unschoolers don’t “school-at-home” nor do we gives tests or grades.

 

Unschooling accepts all learning as valid. Everything is connected. You never know when one thing will lead to or connect with another! Unschoolers know they *do* and will keep searching for those connections.

 

Unschooling is natural learning. Humans are hard-wired to learn-we crave it and seek it out. When you believe that, you’re half-way to understanding how it works.

 

Unschooling is understanding the difference between teaching and learning. That’s a HUGE hurdle to overcome before you can “get” unschooling. (I can *teach* you everything *I* know about unschooling, but unless you’re willing to *learn* it, I’m wasting my time and your time.)

 

All children can unschool.

 

Many parents can’t.

 

Unschooling requires a “paradigm shift” to make it work. And it works best when you (the parent) are an active learner. And curious and thoughtful and enthusiastic and interested and interesting.

 

It’s about trust and respect and patience.

 

It helps if you can step OUT of the box. If you’re OK going against the flow and standing up for yourself (or at least your child).

[Cheryl in NM]

In those other cultures kids are exposed to how their parents provide for them. In North America most parents go off to work and kids only see their leisure activities. And they mimic what they see.

 

If we all were farmers, entrepreneurs, or able to bring the kids to work every day, unschooling would work for nearly all families (there are bound to be type A parents that couldn't deal, and LD kids who need more structure).

 

Yes! My personal theory is that the industrial revolution really took this country down the wrong path by causing the rapid decline of the family farm. In the days when family produced what they needed, trading for the few things they couldn't produce, we had happier families/people as well as more productive people.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Interesting. I do not use tests or grades. I don't think I get to be an unschooler by today's definitions, though.

[calandalsmom]

Yes! My personal theory is that the industrial revolution really took this country down the wrong path by causing the rapid decline of the family farm. In the days when family produced what they needed, trading for the few things they couldn't produce, we had happier families/people as well as more productive people.

 

well I think that's a stretch.

 

 

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/academics/math/senselessschoolmath.html

 

Here's something which will make the anti calculator crowd sob with fury.

[WishboneDawn]

I have a very visceral reaction to that group. It's like a cult. Those kids are doomed.

 

I WAS on the Radical unschooler email lists, forums,etc. with Sandra Dodd et al for years. Cult, no. Radicals, yes but not a cult. There was no kool-aid and I was not shunned when I decided to try something different.

 

Funny thing is, I've heard the WTM forums referred to in other circles as cultish. :)

 

I think people often use the term when what they really mean is other people who are passionate about something they can't fathom.

[WishboneDawn]

I respect your epiphany about unschooling, but can we please not make the sweeping idea that this is the way all unschoolers think and live. I live in an area where almost all the homeschoolers are unschoolers and I'm friends with many of them. Every single one of these unschooled kids does the "building on" type of learning. All of them have passions (violin, pottery, creative writing, meterology, tennis, spelling bees etc.) that challenge them. I have no doubt that these kids will succeed at whatever they choose to do in life. It is truly tragic when children are abandoned to do nothing but play video games, but this is certainly not what all unschoolers do.

ETA: I once heard that unschooling is good for all children but not all parents. The reason I don't unschool is because I am not the right type of parent, and I don't think that the mum the OP mentioned is the right type of parent either (although she and I are very different).

 

I think that's perfect. I was comfortable unschooling for quite awhile but at a certain point when the kids interests starting demanding more work from me I found I couldn't deliver without more structure. So I transitioned to eclectic and now to something more formal.

 

But it's me that couldn't do the unschooling, not the kids.

[cindergretta]

In those other cultures kids are exposed to how their parents provide for them. In North America most parents go off to work and kids only see their leisure activities. And they mimic what they see.

 

If we all were farmers, entrepreneurs, or able to bring the kids to work every day, unschooling would work for nearly all families (there are bound to be type A parents that couldn't deal, and LD kids who need more structure).

 

Exactly. I mean, how is a child who does nothing but play online games going to support himself? I don't think there is a huge market for professional online game players. (I know someone is going to come along and tell us about their sister's next door neighbor's nephew who made a million playing online games, but lets be real. Most of us need some sort of marketable skill, a trade, if you will.)

[johnandtinagilbert]

In those other cultures kids are exposed to how their parents provide for them. In North America most parents go off to work and kids only see their leisure activities. And they mimic what they see.

 

If we all were farmers, entrepreneurs, or able to bring the kids to work every day, unschooling would work for nearly all families (there are bound to be type A parents that couldn't deal, and LD kids who need more structure).

I agree with this assessment, only I'll bet the other nations simply call it living, not unschooling :tongue_smilie:

 

Over time, I've learned *I* could never unschool; 1 of my dc MAY be able to, save these lazy teen years; and that I can do child-led learning to some degree (my family is HUGE). So glad my kids are turning out just.fine....even with my faults and our highly structured life style!

[Cheryl in NM]

well I think that's a stretch.

 

Yep, :blush: dh tells me the same thing, but I hold to my fantasy! lol

 

I WAS on the Radical unschooler email lists, forums,etc. with Sandra Dodd et al for years. Cult, no. Radicals, yes but not a cult. There was no kool-aid and I was not shunned when I decided to try something different.

 

Funny thing is, I've heard the WTM forums referred to in other circles as cultish. :)

 

I think people often use the term when what they really mean is other people who are passionate about something they can't fathom.

 

Sandra Dodd actually told me that it was child abuse to expect my 6 yo ds to sit for 1.5 hours for school with a break every 15-20 minutes. And, yes, WTM was referred to as a cult. I don't think radical unschooling is cultish, though. I just don't personally agree with it, but I don't call it abusive or threaten to have someones children taken away.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Yep, :blush: dh tells me the same thing, but I hold to my fantasy! lol

 

 

 

Sandra Dodd actually told me that it was child abuse to expect my 6 yo ds to sit for 1.5 hours for school with a break every 15-20 minutes. And, yes, WTM was referred to as a cult. I don't think radical unschooling is cultish, though. I just don't personally agree with it, but I don't call it abusive or threaten to have someones children taken away.

:lol::lol::lol: then I suppose I'm a member of a cult! :lol: I admit to thinking the same thing, or at least jestfully thinking so!

 

Home schoolers in general are so grass root, take charge, proud, that I imagine it's easy to see us all in that light.

[cindergretta]

Sandra Dodd actually told me that it was child abuse to expect my 6 yo ds to sit for 1.5 hours for school with a break every 15-20 minutes. And, yes, WTM was referred to as a cult. I don't think radical unschooling is cultish, though. I just don't personally agree with it, but I don't call it abusive or threaten to have someones children taken away.

 

:confused: So is it child abuse if they sit for an hour and half with NO breaks to watch a movie? Or play a video game? Or only if it is to do what we want? What about dinner at a restaurant? (Probably not 90 minutes, but certainly 60...)

 

That is just a tad mind boggling to me.

[stripe]

In those other cultures kids are exposed to how their parents provide for them. In North America most parents go off to work and kids only see their leisure activities. And they mimic what they see.

 

If we all were farmers, entrepreneurs, or able to bring the kids to work every day, unschooling would work for nearly all families (there are bound to be type A parents that couldn't deal, and LD kids who need more structure).

School also provides a framework for children to obtain an education from someone besides a parent. Useful for children without parents, children with uninvolved parents, illiterate parents, parents who cannot advise them on how to work towards their goal (child wants to be a doctor, parents are farmers), and other scenarios. It is easy to romanticize other cultures. There are good things and bad things about everywhere.

[Cindyz]

That's where you are wrong, in the eyes of many a radical unschooler. You are making a value judgement which they would NOT accept.

 

 

Further, the other pushback you'd be getting from a radical unschooler who was gaming neutral is the idea that just bc someone does something for 4 weeks doesnt mean ts a lifetime commitment. Esp at age 10. Or 15.

 

The second poster's child had been carrying on this behavior for at least 2 years.

[WIS0320]

 

I point to a recent post on the Radical Unschoolers Forum as evidence.

 

:ohmy::scared::huh::thumbdown:

[Jenny in GA]

I was in a homeschool group and on a message board with self-proclaimed unschooling guru Sandra Dodd. I was unimpressed by her AND her dd, I never met the boys. The dd was begging other parents to teach her to read (at 11 years old!) because her mother didn't have time. Most of the other unschoolers in the group provided no learning for their kids. The kids spent the days in front of tv and computers or in comic book stores. Alot of them were very ill-behaved on field trips and even got homeschoolers banned from popular field trip venues.

 

I've read success stories about unschoolers and was very intrigued. I can see how it could work. Unfortunately, the way I saw modeled was a disgrace and a dis-service to the kids.

 

Cheryl, did you know the family personally, or just read Sandra's blogs and stuff? I'm curious because Sandra always writes/talks about how impressively well-behaved and responsible her kids and the other unschooled kids that she knows are.

 

What did they do on field trips that was bad?

 

And if you met Holly, what was she like? I was always so curious about what her kids were actually like, based on the way they were raised ...

[Jenny in GA]

ITA. (except I dont actually respect this "epiphany" ie radical generalisation based on one anecdote).

 

Several people have made comments saying that I made a huge leap or generalization based on one family, or even one comment.

 

I just wanted to clarify that this is not the case.

 

I have listened to many CDs from Unschooling conferences, have read at least three books written by unschooling mothers, and was an active member on unschooling lists and forums for at least five years.

 

I chose this single anecdote to make an illustration and because this was the comment that made me see it this particular way.

 

But this comment and lifestyle completely lines up with all the other unschooling books, talks, and forums I have heard/seen/read.

[WIS0320]

I love the idea of Unschooling. But I am to lazy and live too normal a life for Unschooling to work the way I imagine it working the best.

 

In my unschooling dreams I imagine a TV free lifestyle, with tons of great books and life projects going on all the time. We would have a year round garden, major hobby projects, tons of fun field trips, and instead of toys we would have creative materials stacked in every corner. Waldorf like materials that you just can't wait to get your hands on. Then we would cook meals from all over the world every night, and spend our evenings playing games, acting out plays, and reading to each other. I would know fabulously intreresting people who wouldn't mind my kids going to work with them and learning about all kinds of different careers, and they would find their passion early and be able to form a mentorship with a trusted family friend who would take them under their wing and share a wealth of information.

 

 

 

Sounds like you want this life.

 

I'm exhausted reading her blog and while I admire the lifestyle it would just not work for me personally. It is like some sort of freaky Norman Rockwell painting come to life with a hippy cool twist.

 

(And when she chose to paint her hardwood floors white with 5 young kids under foot I decided the blog either jumped the shark for believability or she is some kind of homemaker sadist ;)!)

Edited June 3, 2011 by drexel

[mandymom]

:iagree:

After reading several of the comments on that website. I would label some of it as radical unparenting.

:iagree:

[Mommy22alyns]

 

Funny thing is, I've heard the WTM forums referred to in other circles as cultish. :)

 

 

 

No way! Well... except for that kilt thing...

[WishboneDawn]

 

No way! Well... except for that kilt thing...

:lol::lol:

[silliness7]

The other unschooling thread made me think about this. I kinda wanted to share my thoughts, and figured I'd post my own thread about it.

 

Something clicked for me within the last few months about how unschoolers see things and why I ultimately don't agree with it [anymore].

 

A good friend of mine IRL has been unschooling her kids for many years. She was telling me what her fifteen year old is up to. He apparently spends 30 hours a week doing on-line gaming. He does nothing that most people would consider "school," whether "fun" or "creative" schoolwork or avant garde schoolwork or otherwise. Basically gaming, and hanging out, and Pokemon, is what he spends his time doing.

 

She was telling me [and I know nothing about on-line gaming, so I may not be explaining it quite right] that when he signs on, the gamers have to sometimes wait for enough players to play, so they chat amongst themselves while they wait.

 

He called to her one day while on the computer, "Mom! So much learning! So much learning! My head hurts from all this learning!"

 

She explained to me that in these chat discussions, he was learning a wide variety of things. For example, one player lived in France, and he was talking about something about French culture -- that sort of thing.

 

She told me, quite proudly, that "he was getting an amazing education!" this way.

 

I thought about this for a long time. Something about it didn't seem quite right, although I wasn't sure why.

 

Then I figured it out.

 

Unschoolers are right: Humans naturally learn. People do learn all the time. You can learn without doing "schoolwork." You can learn from casual conversations, from TV, whatever.

 

BUT ... there is a different kind of learning that is significantly different from "Huh, I just had a conversation about Whatever, I never knew that; I learned something today!" That's ... well, I guess, a passive, isolated sort of learning.

 

It seems like unschoolers thrive on and point out that kind of learning often.

 

But what they are [mostly] missing is the kind of learning that builds upon itself for a long time -- not just isolated pieces of information, but skills that build on themselves.

 

The kind of learning where you have to strive, and try again when you get it wrong the first time. The kind of learning where you have to push through a rough spot. The kind of learning where you ... well, have to be more active than just hearing a conversation and going, "Wow, I just learned something!"

 

So ... I don't know if this is helpful to anybody here, but once I figured this out, it helped me understand better. So I thought I'd share.

 

:iagree::iagree: Excellent post!! I think you can sum up in one word what they are missing - discipline.

[cindergretta]

:iagree::iagree: Excellent post!! I think you can sum up in one word what they are missing - discipline.

 

Some families who unschool lack discipline. Many don't. (Although, it sounds like radical unschoolers lack discipline. But I don't know about radical unschooling. I followed John Holt during my brief foray into unschooling.)

[WishboneDawn]

I can just imagine a conversation like this happening on an unschooling forum about classical homeschooling except completely reversed.

 

People would be going on about how classical homeschooling is bad because it's stifling and inflexible...

[calandalsmom]

I can just imagine a conversation like this happening on an unschooling forum about classical homeschooling except completely reversed.

 

People would be going on about how classical homeschooling is bad because it's stifling and inflexible...

 

Exactly!!!

 

Meanwhile both have good Elements.

 

Which is why I am a happily relaxed eclectic flexible homeschooler, not a Hive mind or radical unschooled.

[SunshineMom]

When my children were young we belonged (for 2yrs) to an unschool support type play/group and I had the chance to get to know many of the children and adults. I can tell you there is a wide range of people within unschoolers. I found many of the parents held college degrees and only a handful did not (out of 15+ families). Many of the children began reading around 9/10yrs unless they requested to learn earlier. I found many families read, played education type games, and went on enriching field trips with their children. Many of the children were curious with a science type bent. However, what I did not like was this sort of approved brat-like behavior from the younger kids. The young children were given a long leash with regards to following their own interests, unruly behaviors, setting or following rules and age expectations. Some of the older youth I had conversations with actually exhibited mature points of view, had varied interests and future goals. Some on the other hand (the gaming, TV addicts, etc types), were very socially backward and lacking maturity. I met several mothers with children who had graduated and moved on to college, even a few with young teens taking college courses. BTW I was sort of looked down upon when I left the group. I heard statements like "why are you teaching spelling? (they will learn on their own) why limit TV? (they will self-regulate) why teach them to read? (for they will ask when they are ready). I did find a few parents who admitted a sort of what I would call "unparenting style" with their children by not limiting TV, bedtime, meal time, bathing, clothing, etc. Many of the mothers looked and acted depressed/burned out, it was as if their children's interests, ideas, moods, ruled or dictated the family's time. An unschooling approach to education may also be problematic for kids with learning disabilities or differences. I met a handful of children who were not reading at 11yrs, a few autistic children and a few gifted children. I also found that many families shared a pagan type belief system and really sought alternative lifestyles (not all bad ones). Many of the adults were open to new ideas and shared organic gardening and raising chickens tips, along with homemaking arts (preserves, canning, etc.), wide range of crafts (sewing, knitting, etc.), book reviews and suggestions and politics with one another. They were an interesting group! However, I found as my children became "school age" I needed to guide their education and provide a structured environment to do so. I just could not trust that my children could guide their own education. I prefer to teach my children (I do incorporate their interests however they don't rule our studies) so they are prepared to go to college even if they decide not to, at least they would have that option. My observations are only of this one group of unschoolers.

[Cheryl in NM]

:confused: So is it child abuse if they sit for an hour and half with NO breaks to watch a movie? Or play a video game? Or only if it is to do what we want? What about dinner at a restaurant? (Probably not 90 minutes, but certainly 60...)

 

That is just a tad mind boggling to me.

 

It was abuse because I was imposing my will on him to sit in a chair and do the schoolwork he didn't want to do. And, yes, according to her, making a child sit still in a restaurant would be abuse.

[Cheryl in NM]

Cheryl, did you know the family personally, or just read Sandra's blogs and stuff? I'm curious because Sandra always writes/talks about how impressively well-behaved and responsible her kids and the other unschooled kids that she knows are.

 

What did they do on field trips that was bad?

 

And if you met Holly, what was she like? I was always so curious about what her kids were actually like, based on the way they were raised ...

 

I meant the unschool group as a whole, not Sandra's kids, behaved poorly. They would yell loudly, run around during presentations, touch equipment they were told not to touch, etc.; just general unrulyness.

 

Holly is a very sweet girl with a great, loving heart.

 

What Sandra says on her websites and what reality was are 2 totally different things.

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

When my children were young we belonged (for 2yrs) to an unschool support type play/group and I had the chance to get to know many of the children and adults. I can tell you there is a wide range of people within unschoolers. I found many of the parents held college degrees and only a handful did not (out of 15+ families). Many of the children began reading around 9/10yrs unless they requested to learn earlier. I found many families read, played education type games, and went on enriching field trips with their children. Many of the children were curious with a science type bent. However, what I did not like was this sort of approved brat-like behavior from the younger kids. The young children were given a long leash with regards to following their own interests, unruly behaviors, setting or following rules and age expectations. Some of the older youth I had conversations with actually exhibited mature points of view, had varied interests and future goals. Some on the other hand (the gaming, TV addicts, etc types), were very socially backward and lacking maturity. I met several mothers with children who had graduated and moved on to college, even a few with young teens taking college courses. BTW I was sort of looked down upon when I left the group. I heard statements like "why are you teaching spelling? (they will learn on their own) why limit TV? (they will self-regulate) why teach them to read? (for they will ask when they are ready). I did find a few parents who admitted a sort of what I would call "unparenting style" with their children by not limiting TV, bedtime, meal time, bathing, clothing, etc. Many of the mothers looked and acted depressed/burned out, it was as if their children's interests, ideas, moods, ruled or dictated the family's time. An unschooling approach to education may also be problematic for kids with learning disabilities or differences. I met a handful of children who were not reading at 11yrs, a few autistic children and a few gifted children. I also found that many families shared a pagan type belief system and really sought alternative lifestyles (not all bad ones). Many of the adults were open to new ideas and shared organic gardening and raising chickens tips, along with homemaking arts (preserves, canning, etc.), wide range of crafts (sewing, knitting, etc.), book reviews and suggestions and politics with one another. They were an interesting group! However, I found as my children became "school age" I needed to guide their education and provide a structured environment to do so. I just could not trust that my children could guide their own education. I prefer to teach my children (I do incorporate their interests however they don't rule our studies) so they are prepared to go to college even if they decide not to, at least they would have that option. My observations are only of this one group of unschoolers.

 

On your preparing your dc for college comment...dh and I have no means to send one child let alone four to college. I see it it as my responsibility to do all I can to not only prepare them if they should chose that route, but strutcture their education in such a way that they have a competive edge come scholarship seeking time. Dh hubby and I threw away college education (him via parents and me via gov't grants) and though that was our (dumb!) choice, I hope to contribute as much as possible to our sons and that will likely come in the form of wonderful high school transcripts . We are gentle in the early years, but plan on picking up speed in the later elementary years. Don't let my siggy fool ya'll. ;)

Edited June 3, 2011 by JENinOR

[specialmama]

:iagree:

After reading several of the comments on that website. I would label some of it as radical unparenting.

 

:iagree: I found myself praying for that 11yo son's future wife. She's gonna need it. :001_huh:

[Veritaserum]

I am an unschooler-turned-WTMer. I agree with the concerns about unschooling that have been shared on this thread. I think it can work well for a very small percentage of parent/child combinations. I have not seen it work well in the unschooling families I know. There is a particular flavor of unschooling that is extremely popular in my area. It most definitely has a religious feel to it. When I switched to "school at home" I felt like I was doing something almost immoral. I was renouncing my faith in unschooling and was embarrassed/worried about how my unschooling friends would react. In retrospect, I am frightened by the level of devotion exhibited toward any one particular philosophy or homeschooling guru. I greatly admire and respect SWB, but I don't religiously follow every recommendation that she gives. I do what works for me and my kids, even when that deviates from TWTM. :)

 

Sadly, I have seen far more poor examples of unschooling (like gaming all day) than I've seen good....

[Hen]

Sounds like you want this life.

 

I'm exhausted reading her blog and while I admire the lifestyle it would just not work for me personally. It is like some sort of freaky Norman Rockwell painting come to life with a hippy cool twist.

 

(And when she chose to paint her hardwood floors white with 5 young kids under foot I decided the blog either jumped the shark for believability or she is some kind of homemaker sadist ;)!)

 

I love Amanda Soule's blog and read it almost daily...when she painted her floors white, I have to admit I started dreaming of doing the same in our family room, my dh quickly pointed out how crazy that would be for us, 5 homeschooled kids running around and a labradoodle! I realized he was right, I would hate having to clean it all the time....!!

 

I do love her blog and would love to live like that, but I have realized that I am not together enough to live that "flowing"...best way I can say it...I forget to do things, I have to have some kind of scope and sequence.

:D

[Chez J]

I have belonged to several unschooling groups (I was not in their same camp, but I wasn't looking for an academic group). It never worked out. In fact some of the members of the last group were such miserable people I couldn't take it anymore and just gave up on these groups. They thought it was okay when their children were downright cruel to other members of the group and wouldn't dare say anything for fear of interfering with their children's lives. In one instance a parent said nothing when a child (who was much too old to be doing so) bit another child for no good reason. Since when do actions not have consequences? Maybe they will learn it when they end up arrested and in jail because they didn't learn it as children when the situations were much less serious.

 

I am generally an open minded person and believe that most people have the best intentions for their children, but my experiences with unschoolers have been so unbelievably negative I'm having a hard time. Maybe I just had very bad luck.

 

This has been my experience for the most part as well. Most - not all - unschoolers I have known have had very ill-behaved children who my child was afraid of. I was concerned for her safety with them. One mom explained to me that it was not her responsibility to teach her child that hitting another kid was bad. Eventually her kid would get hit back or lose all her friends and would learn the lesson that way - natural consequences and all. I quickly broke ties after that conversation.

[johnandtinagilbert]

I love Amanda Soule's blog and read it almost daily...when she painted her floors white, I have to admit I started dreaming of doing the same in our family room, my dh quickly pointed out how crazy that would be for us, 5 homeschooled kids running around and a labradoodle! I realized he was right, I would hate having to clean it all the time....!!

 

I do love her blog and would love to live like that, but I have realized that I am not together enough to live that "flowing"...best way I can say it...I forget to do things, I have to have some kind of scope and sequence.

:D

I enjoy her blog, also; however I keep in mind she has young children. My life seemed much sweeter, softer, and def. had much more flow at that season in life. This isn't to say she won't stay the same, but in my case, I haven't sewed for years unless it was for a church program..I used to sew lace on the bottom of all dds pjs; everybody's curtains; and lots of home decor stuff...now, my sewing machine is DUSTY!

[Hen]

I enjoy her blog, also; however I keep in mind she has young children. My life seemed much sweeter, softer, and def. had much more flow at that season in life. This isn't to say she won't stay the same, but in my case, I haven't sewed for years unless it was for a church program..I used to sew lace on the bottom of all dds pjs; everybody's curtains; and lots of home decor stuff...now, my sewing machine is DUSTY!

 

Yes, exactly, well put. Looking back, my days with young children did seem more relaxed, more home-ish...I've been wondering lately how I kept my house so much more cleaner and neat-er when the kids were all very young...I think we had more home time, more down-time, more nap-times... :D

 

I remember reading "And the Skylark sings with me" ...an unschooling memoir and admiring it and realizing I would have loved a childhood like that- but realizing that my own limitations would keep it from working for us. I think if I had just one, gifted child, I could have pulled off an unschooling lifestyle- I'm talking unschooling where you surround the child and home with interesting educational stimuli/projects/books/opportunities that the child could then dive into or not. But, having several children and being a bit 'scattered' myself most days, I realized it would not have worked for us, no matter how idyllic. I need some kind of goal, some kind of step-by-step instructions to get me to the finish line. :001_smile:

[nansk]

I was in a homeschool group and on a message board with self-proclaimed unschooling guru Sandra Dodd. I was unimpressed by her AND her dd, I never met the boys. The dd was begging other parents to teach her to read (at 11 years old!) because her mother didn't have time.

 

How did her dd read the messages on the board? And how did she respond? Was her spelling and grammar incorrect? Just curious..

[laundrycrisis]

How did her dd read the messages on the board? And how did she respond? Was her spelling and grammar incorrect? Just curious..

 

I believe she meant the DD was asking for help in person, in the homeschool group.

 

I have known unschooled children who did this - asking other kids' parents to teach them some of the 3Rs at social gatherings. In this case their mother would make a big show of saying "you can learn that if you want to" but not help her 8 yo DD even when asked. I get that different people have different personal definitions of unschooling, but to not help your own kid with something academic even when they have asked for help because you think they can learn it on their own if they are motivated enough is sad and neglectful.

[Kim in SouthGa]

How does unschooling in high school work? I just can't imagine being able to prepare for college that way. My ds is preparing for the SAT2 Bio test now, and it is definitely not something he would do on his own, but I feel it is important for him to reach his end goal. I don't know many teenage boys, especially, that would willingly spend their time studying for all the test and essays required for good college prep, particularly to get high enough scores for scholarships. Is college just not an issue for unschoolers?

[laundrycrisis]

I have belonged to several unschooling groups (I was not in their same camp, but I wasn't looking for an academic group). It never worked out. In fact some of the members of the last group were such miserable people I couldn't take it anymore and just gave up on these groups. They thought it was okay when their children were downright cruel to other members of the group and wouldn't dare say anything for fear of interfering with their children's lives. In one instance a parent said nothing when a child (who was much too old to be doing so) bit another child for no good reason. Since when do actions not have consequences? Maybe they will learn it when they end up arrested and in jail because they didn't learn it as children when the situations were much less serious.

 

I am generally an open minded person and believe that most people have the best intentions for their children, but my experiences with unschoolers have been so unbelievably negative I'm having a hard time. Maybe I just had very bad luck.

 

I had similar experiences in groups with a lot of members who embraced and professed unschooling as the best, most evolved way to "be with your children". The kids ran wild and the parents did not believe in "coercing" them...even threats, namecalling and hitting were acceptable ways for the kids to "express themselves". I saw completely out of control and inappropriate behavior (ie, running across the top of the conference table in a rented meeting room) laughed at instead of stopped. I saw children encouraged to "defy gravity" by jumping on a sofa in a public nature center; I saw preschool-aged children running NUDE on the lawn of the same facility.

 

These were hard-core RU people who have bought into completely "consensual, non-coercive" parenting. The people who go around wearing the shirts about how "highly evolved" unschooling is. I know that there are many unschoolers who do not take it to this level...they quietly unschool at home, enjoying their own path but not criticizing people who make different choices, and still do parenting things regarding their kids' behavior. I would not choose unschooling but I have no problem with the milder unschooling crowd. But I have seen the dark side of the radical, hard core version of it and I found it very disturbing.

[Veritaserum]

How does unschooling in high school work? I just can't imagine being able to prepare for college that way. My ds is preparing for the SAT2 Bio test now, and it is definitely not something he would do on his own, but I feel it is important for him to reach his end goal. I don't know many teenage boys, especially, that would willingly spend their time studying for all the test and essays required for good college prep, particularly to get high enough scores for scholarships. Is college just not an issue for unschoolers?

 

A large percentage of the unschoolers I know place little to no value on traditional college. Entrepreneurship or working a trade are encouraged more. I think the lukewarm attitude toward college stems from college being the establishment and part of "the conveyor belt" of education.

 

WRT to high school, the following is what is taught by the philosophy of unschooling that is popular where I am: Your teen-aged child's passion, whether that be motorcycles or video games or whatever, will naturally inspire hours of study on the subject. The reassurance is that your son can't possibly study motorcycles for 6-8 hours per day without learning a bit of math, science, history, etc. IOW, you still don't direct the content of your child's study. You're there to "mentor" by finding resources when asked for help, but your child's education is his own. You're told to trust the process (which is also what you're told when your 12-year-old hasn't learned to read after you didn't teach him).

 

I'm trying to think of any unschooling children that went to college, but I'm coming up blank. The only ones I can think of attended/attend a non-accredited "university" run by the very same people who created the unschooling method that is so popular here.

 

ETA: My sister has an unschooling family on her street. The oldest son (12) has physically assaulted people at church, but the parents still insisted that the other people must have done something mean to him (and the other children). Those children have no boundaries and it's scary. My sister was ready to leave that church because her children were in classes with the unruly children and she was concerned for the safety of her kids. The family of the boy decided that the people at church were too mean and have switched to a different church. They are unwilling to curb the negative behavior. I worry about what that boy's future will be. :(

Edited June 3, 2011 by Veritaserum