4th edition Saxon - anyone using?

[Deniseibase]

I know that some people just hate the 4th edition Saxon stuff, but I'm wondering if anyone does use it and what they thought of it if they did? I have a rising 6th grader who is quite good at math, but has gotten bogged down a bit as we've finished up Saxon Alg 1/2 with the geometry problems. They are the ONLY problems that give her trouble, but every single one of them gives her trouble. I was planning on using third edition Saxon Algebra I & II & then doing a separate year of geometry anyway because it is obvious she is going to need to have the practice. I think concentrating on geometry for a full year, but AFTER she has finished both Algebra books, will be a big help for her. Because she is so young, I have no problem giving her time to gain some maturity before we tackle the stuff that she hates :)

 

But it occurred to me that it might be even better to switch to 4th edition, and let her concentrate on the stuff she does well for Algebra. It would certainly improve her attitude and confidence if there were no more geometry for a couple years. I've looked at the online sampler for the 4th edition and it doesn't look too bad.

 

So is anyone using these? Do you like them? Any snags? TIA for any info!!

[classics4us]

bumpikng as I have a similar Q.

[melmichigan]

You might want to ask on the high school board as well (if you haven't).

[Guest]

The difference, as answered by the Saxon rep I called, is 4th has the geometry lessons removed. That is it.

[Carla in CNY]

Last year I taught Saxon Algebra 2 3rd edition at our homeschool co-op. It was my first year teaching the course and this year I am highly recommending that students who struggle with math take a full year of geometry BEFORE trying Algebra 2. Algebra 2, 3rd edition incorporates a LOT of geometry into the course. One student who is very self-motivated and a hard worker was able to do very well in this class with no previous geometry experience. All of my other students struggled with the geometry and since we only met once each week I could not devote the time needed to help them understand it.

 

So - having only read about the 4th edition Saxon sequence my gut tells me that would be a much better approach. Algebra 1, Geometry, then Algebra 2. That is the sequence I took in high school and it makes the most sense to me. Plus, since I am a logical thinker, I'd much rather have all the rules of geometry laid out plainly for me in one course. Saxon Algebra 2 - 3rd ed. seems to throw the geometry out piecemeal and not in any logical fashion that would make it easy to remember.

[Deniseibase]

Well, since I'm apparently NOT the only one to be wondering this, let me share what I've found. There IS more of a change than that, at least from looking at the samples.

http://saxonhomeschool.hmhco.com/HA/correlations/pdf/s/SH-AGA-4th-Sampler.pdf

 

I went through the Algebra II sampler and compared that lesson 58 on Completing the Square with lesson 58 on Lead Coefficients, More on Completing the Square in the current Algebra II. (Apparently I have too much time on my hands lately ;) !!!)

 

- 4th starts with some warmup questions, similar to the Mental Math in earlier levels of Saxon 4th but obviously with harder problems. We always liked that section, so that's a plus for us.

 

- 4th seems to have more of an emphasis on calling various properties & theorems & whatnot by their standard names - at least, 4th edition used names that I could find entries for on a Google search - I'm NOT a math person, so I don't really know!! An example is the Square Root Property referred to in 4th edition lesson 58. It's not mentioned by that name in 3rd, although the process is taught.

 

- 4th is wordier in their lessons - 4th has almost 4 pages of text before the exercises, 3rd has a page and a half. Not really a plus for us, dd isn't a wordy kinda gal. Most of that text in 4th is examples worked, starting with a really simple one, then an 'exploration' which shows a graphic model of the process, then two more slightly harder examples, and finally an 'application' or word problem.

 

- There seem to be more word problems - 4th has 10 word problems, 3rd has 4. This I like a lot, this is something I always felt Saxon was weak on.

 

- There are a number of little 'labels' that often come before a problem in 4th that give an idea what the problem is about or what it relates to - labels like 'Generalize', 'Justify', 'Physics', 'Agriculture', etc. A lot of these problems are a little different kinds of problems from the 3rd edition - some ask you to explain how to use a method, or find and correct an error in a wrong solution, things like that. It seems to be trying to connect the math to the real world a little more.

 

- 4th uses a graphing calculator for some problems.

 

 

So, in short, there are more differences, and it LOOKS ok to me, but I'm not a math person so I can't really judge. I've got a little extra money for curricula this year, and my daughter after looking at the samples is telling me THAT is the math she wants when we do Algebra (which will end up being 7th grade, probably, but we may start this year if she is really enthusiastic), so I went ahead and bought the 4th edition homeschool kit yesterday from Rainbow. I want to spend some time with it before I decide, probably work some of the lessons myself and see if they 'feel' comparable.

 

Finally, there is a glowing review of the school 4th edition on Amazon - http://www.amazon.com/Saxon-Algebra-1-Publications/dp/1602773025/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1308440321&sr=8-12 Read the comments on that review too, there's a conversation about how odd it is that this guy seems to like both Saxon and 'new math' texts.

 

So, I'm no expert, and I wish some experts would weigh in :) To ME, this looks like old Saxon with proper vocabulary, more word problems, and some more unusual approaches like the 'correct the error' problems. It still has the Saxon method of introducing a new concept, working a few problems for that lesson, and then the other problems reviewing previous info until it is solid in your head, which is a method that has worked exceedingly well for us.

 

It looks pretty good to me, but not having seen the text yet I'm not sure. I can't find the table of contents online, so I have no idea if any other topics beyond the geometry ones were taken out, or added in for that matter. I can post my findings next week after my Rainbow order comes in if anyone cares?

[Deniseibase]

I crossposted this on the high school board too, thanks for the idea!!

[Deniseibase]

OK, here's my review - first off, my qualifications to review this book: I have looked at it and worked the first four lessons in it. That is the sum total of my qualifications, I am neither a math-y person, nor have I read the whole book. I keep HOPING someone else who is MORE qualified will write this review FOR me, LOL!!!

 

Also, you should know that our family LOVES the Saxon method and it has worked well for us for the past 6 years for math, phonics, and grammar.

 

Saxon Algebra I, 4th Edition has 120 lessons, 12 Investigations, and 23 tests. There are also 11 Labs that are meant to be done on the same day as another lesson or investigation, and 5 extra lessons and 31 skills bank lessons in the appendix that can be used if the student needs extra practice, but all in all it is meant to be 155 days worth of work. Comparing Saxon 4th with Saxon 3rd, it appears that they cover approximately the same amount of algebra - for example, 3rd covers the quadratic formula at lesson 119, and 4th covers the quadratic formula at lesson 110. 4th seems to spend more time on problems that seem to fall more into other areas of math, such as permutation problems or deductive and inductive reasoning, while 3rd has more geometry-based problems. And while several of us have spoken to Saxon reps who said the geometry is all stripped out, it's not - there's not much geometry compared to what there is in 3rd, but you are still going to need to know how to figure perimeter, area, volume, and surface areas.

 

The mixed practice 'stretches' farther back in 3rd than it does in 4th. For example, in lesson 114 in 3rd edition, there are review problems referring back to lessons 36, 20, 14, and 8. In lesson 114 in 4th edition, the earliest lesson referred to is 74. So that's a change, but I can't tell if that will be good or bad. I think some students (including me) benefit from the extended review, but others (including probably my daughter) don't seem to need as much.

 

 

WHAT I LIKE

 

- There is a wider variety of problems overall. There are many more word problems. Every problem set has problems in Error Analysis, in which students are asked to find an error in a proposed solution and explain what is wrong about it. Every problem set has problems where you have to explain why something works the way it does in words, instead of just demonstrating that you know how to do it.

 

- The problems covering the same concept show more variation. For example, in Lesson 18, which is about like terms in both books, the 3rd edition examples are all straightforward computation - 'Simplify by adding like terms.' In the 4th edition, the some of the problems are straightforward 'Simplify by adding like terms', but there are also word problems that involve measurement of a horse arena, sewing, how many pages groups of kids read, and one that reads 'Simplify 8x + x(2x +5) and explain each step.'

 

- The early lessons show a lot more variety, by incorporating problems using skills that the student is presumed to have mastered already, like multiplying decimals or adding mixed numbers.

 

- Although I haven't been through the whole book, I have not found any obvious errors in the lessons I worked - I know that was a problem for the Geometry book when it first came out.

 

 

 

WHAT I DON'T LIKE

 

- It's still a hot mess as far as trying to figure out what algebra IS as a coherent whole. You'll learn a lot of different stuff, but I at least have a hard time grasping it as a whole without additional materials.

 

- The wild vocabulary word problems are gone!! I will miss those, I've been a great reader all my life and I was still finding delightful new words from those problems. I'm really sorry they took those out.

 

- There's not any explanation to HOW to use the book, which led to a little confusion for me. The very first warmup problem on the very first lesson was 'A (Venn diagram / line plot) shows the relationship between sets.' I had NO idea what they meant by 'line plot', since those were not covered in Algebra 1/2. The notation next to the problem read (SB 30). There was no explanation in the front of the book as to what the notation meant, that it was so you could look up the lesson if you were having trouble with a concept, so of course there was also no explanation as to what 'SB' meant!! I finally figured it out, it refers to the Skills Bank lessons in the back of the book, but it would have been nice to have a couple pages of 'How to Use This Book' at the beginning.

 

- the labs are there pretty much for the purpose of showing students how to use graphing calculators, and there are many problems where they instruct you to solve the problem using a graphing calculator instead of by hand. I can't fathom why graphing calculators would be preferable to graphing on paper for Algebra I. If I use this, I will also make my kids do these problems by hand & let them use the graphing calculator just to check their work.

 

 

So, hope that helps someone! If anyone has any specific questions, feel free to ask, I'll be glad to try to answer!

[angel marie]

thanks so much for posting all of this. you have made our decision much easier for our 9th grade math program starting soon. good luck with your school year too!!!

angel