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LAmom

S/O California State Standards

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Yes, it could happen, but in my experience- and having a good friend who was an ES for a charter...I know the ES (teacher over-seeing) receives the materials first and goes through it. If a family tried to deceive the school and ES, the ES would see it, send the material back and the relationship between the ES/family would become pretty strained- she would now know you did something dishonest. All parties have an interest in not breaking the rules, because they want the charter school to stay open. From what I have read/seen, the teacher's union is very interested in not having these charter schools and would jump on this kind of stuff. All of my ES's have been very careful to not order things we can not.

The things I mentioned were done *on the recommendation* of the ES.

 

Believe me when I tell you that I am not making up this stuff.

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It is $1600.00 each. I started in January and they both received $900 for their budget for the 2nd semester.

 

It's pretty nice and the budget will be the same next year too.

 

There ordering is through vendors as well. I have never "touched" the budget monies. Each child has an individual account and if I want to order something, I just log into their account online and choose the vendor I want to order from. They have a list of approved vendors, like Amazon and Rainbow Resource. I then input the number to the item, the description and the price and then it takes a few days before it's approved or denied. The money is taken from your account and then the item(s) ships directly to you. It has to be approved by the charter before the order can even be placed and Yes, I have had items denied because they felt they were not educational. I think I had picked a few board games out, like Q-bids and that was denied although other educational games were approved. I have used the money for music classes, books from Amazon, board games and supplemental curriculum. I have also ordered AAS program and all their beginning curriculum books. I found it very useful and I will be teaching some from Christian curriculum this fall but it will be paid for out of my pocket.

 

 

That is just awesome!

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The things I mentioned were done *on the recommendation* of the ES.

 

Believe me when I tell you that I am not making up this stuff.

 

Again, I still don't see the problem with the things you are talking about. The religious content was being segregated from the academic content reported. That's appropriate. If the subject materials aren't paid for by the state, it's none of the state's business that there is religious content within the materials used.

 

I don't know how to multi-quote here, so bear with me.

 

In my charter, families cannot purchase religious materials for instruction. I'd imagine every homeschooling charter in California has that same rule. If there are (anecdotal) individuals out there in California buying religious materials on the state's dime, that would absolutely be dishonest. I've not personally heard of anyone doing that within my own circles, and I have lots of Christian friends. They buy their own materials that are too religious to pass muster, and then use their charter school budget for other things.

 

I've checked my paperwork and there is no time requirement in my contracts, so I'm sure time requirements can't be outlined in the California Constitution.

 

This has been a really interesting discussion.

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Again, I still don't see the problem with the things you are talking about. The religious content was being segregated from the academic content reported. That's appropriate. If the subject materials aren't paid for by the state, it's none of the state's business that there is religious content within the materials used.

 

I don't know how to multi-quote here, so bear with me.

 

In my charter, families cannot purchase religious materials for instruction. I'd imagine every homeschooling charter in California has that same rule. If there are (anecdotal) individuals out there in California buying religious materials on the state's dime, that would absolutely be dishonest. I've not personally heard of anyone doing that within my own circles, and I have lots of Christian friends. They buy their own materials that are too religious to pass muster, and then use their charter school budget for other things.

 

I've checked my paperwork and there is no time requirement in my contracts, so I'm sure time requirements can't be outlined in the California Constitution.

 

This has been a really interesting discussion.

I don't know how to explain it any further. I'm just telling you that yes, there have been abuses, and I know this for a fact. I did not say that the state paid for religious materials. Yes, it is the state's business if a public school is teaching or allowing to be taught anything religious and having that count for the required time. Charter schools count as public schools. The California Constitution doesn't specify how much time; the Ed. Code does. I suspect that back when I was in California I had a big circle of friends than you have now.

 

There's no point in discussing this further, so let's just part friends. I cannot recommend public-funded charter/virtual schools, for more than just religious reasons. You like them. Such is life. :001_smile:

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I don't know how to explain it any further. I'm just telling you that yes, there have been abuses, and I know this for a fact. I did not say that the state paid for religious materials. Yes, it is the state's business if a public school is teaching or allowing to be taught anything religious and having that count for the required time. Charter schools count as public schools. The California Constitution doesn't specify how much time; the Ed. Code does. I suspect that back when I was in California I had a big circle of friends than you have now.

 

There's no point in discussing this further, so let's just part friends. I cannot recommend public-funded charter/virtual schools, for more than just religious reasons. You like them. Such is life. :001_smile:

 

 

I didn't mean to imply you said the state paid for religious materials, Ellie -- that's why I said I couldn't multi-quote. I think WildIris said that. Sorry for the confusion! I was trying to respond to a number of different posts at the same time.

 

I do agree it seems we are at an impasse. I'm perfectly willing to part friends.:D

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But I have talked with actual, real people who said they had done things I mentioned (e.g., changed the title of a textbook so it didn't sound religious, listed only the table of contents). These are not conclusions based on something which might--or might not--happen. They are real.

 

I can see that you are done with this thread, but I just have 1 last thing to say. I understand that in any venue unethical things can happen. It seemed to me that your conclusion was that the only way for a Christian to function in a charter was for them to be dishonest with the system. THAT is the conclusion that I think is false.

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I can see that you are done with this thread, but I just have 1 last thing to say. I understand that in any venue unethical things can happen. It seemed to me that your conclusion was that the only way for a Christian to function in a charter was for them to be dishonest with the system. THAT is the conclusion that I think is false.

:iagree:

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I can see that you are done with this thread, but I just have 1 last thing to say. I understand that in any venue unethical things can happen. It seemed to me that your conclusion was that the only way for a Christian to function in a charter was for them to be dishonest with the system. THAT is the conclusion that I think is false.

 

Even though you were speaking to Ellie, I would like to respond since I was lumped into this category in one of your previous posts. I don't believe it's fair for you to assume what my conclusions are. I was specifically referring to my family's situation: our reasons for homeschooling, our philosophy of education, and the materials we use would not work for us in the charter system without us feeling as though we were being dishonest. I do think that other Christians with similar philosophies should tread very carefully and prayerfully consider this before enrolling their children in charters. I was never referring to Christians that enroll in charters and choose to use material and maintain records according to charter law and state regulations. I was just was pointing out why it will never work for us.

 

I'm perfectly ok with agreeing to disagree......;)

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I can see that you are done with this thread, but I just have 1 last thing to say. I understand that in any venue unethical things can happen. It seemed to me that your conclusion was that the only way for a Christian to function in a charter was for them to be dishonest with the system. THAT is the conclusion that I think is false.

:confused:

I don't know how you got that, but whatever.

:001_smile:

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LOL! I think I'll avoid posting in threads of this nature in the future.....:tongue_smilie:

 

:)

No worries. Long discussions like this keep us on our toes. :D

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
Again, I still don't see the problem with the things you are talking about. The religious content was being segregated from the academic content reported. That's appropriate. If the subject materials aren't paid for by the state, it's none of the state's business that there is religious content within the materials used.

 

I don't know how to multi-quote here, so bear with me.

 

In my charter, families cannot purchase religious materials for instruction. I'd imagine every homeschooling charter in California has that same rule. If there are (anecdotal) individuals out there in California buying religious materials on the state's dime, that would absolutely be dishonest. I've not personally heard of anyone doing that within my own circles, and I have lots of Christian friends. They buy their own materials that are too religious to pass muster, and then use their charter school budget for other things.

 

I've checked my paperwork and there is no time requirement in my contracts, so I'm sure time requirements can't be outlined in the California Constitution.

 

This has been a really interesting discussion.

The problem is that if the curriculum is religious then it cannot be counted towards any required academic subjects. The curriculum used for required subjects must be non-sectarian. Parents can supplement the non-sectarian materials with sectarian materials (just as they would if their children were in a brick and mortar public school) but they cannot use sectarian materials for the instruction required by a public school charter program. When using a charter you are a public school and only non-sectarian materials may be used for instruction during school hours and to meet charter requirements. Since Bible is not a required subject it is not subject to those requirements. Does that help?

 

Like Ellie, I have seen charters tell parents they can use sectarian materials for required academic subjects if they purchase the materials themselves and then coach parents on how to word their documentation so it will be approved by the state. I have also seen these charters fined for this practice and reverse their stance on sectarian materials (they now no longer allow any sectarian materials in order to comply with state requirements) because they don't want to be fined again. No, I didn't report them. If a charter is telling parents they can use sectarian materials for required academic subjects if the parents purchase them with their own funds they are breaking CA state law.

 

Personally, I choose not to use a charter because I do not want to use non-sectarian material for my academic subjects and then supplement with sectarian materials. I also do not want to place myself under the state government, who I believe should have no say in how I educate my children.

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I also do not want to place myself under the state government, who I believe should have no say in how I educate my children.

 

:iagree: ....and that might be another thread for discussion. Not sure I'm up for that one also....:D

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Even though you were speaking to Ellie, I would like to respond since I was lumped into this category in one of your previous posts. I don't believe it's fair for you to assume what my conclusions are. I was specifically referring to my family's situation: our reasons for homeschooling, our philosophy of education, and the materials we use would not work for us in the charter system without us feeling as though we were being dishonest. I do think that other Christians with similar philosophies should tread very carefully and prayerfully consider this before enrolling their children in charters. I was never referring to Christians that enroll in charters and choose to use material and maintain records according to charter law and state regulations. I was just was pointing out why it will never work for us.

 

I'm perfectly ok with agreeing to disagree......;)

I'm sorry that you felt that this specific post was directed at you, it wasn't. You can find my specific response to you in my earlier, longer response above. I think in that post that you will find that I agreed with your conclusion that charters would probably not be a good fit for your family. I totally agree with you on that count.

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The charter we used wanted samples of knowledge gained. Certainly, I can show progress in grammar without a bible verse being present. When we were with the charter, we didn't teach subjects with exclusively Christian materials. If you sat in on a homeschool day, certainly that worldview was present, but I never once felt like I was lying to anyone about our materials or our day. This accusation of dishonestly actually comes up quite a bit in the California hs community, so it's not that it hasn't occurred to me, it's just that I don't agree with the conclusions that you (CHEA, Ellie, ect) are coming to. There are broad brush strokes being painted, despite the many differences in the different charters.

 

I absolutely believe that one can use a charter and simultaneously give their kids a Christian education, without lying or breaking the law in any fashion.

 

This is the post I was referring to that was in reponse to one of mine. I can't speak for Ellie, but the point I was trying to get across in my original post is that dishonesty absolutely does occur because I have witnessed it, as has Ellie. However, I don't think that we ever arrived at the conclusion that the only way for a Christian to be in a charter would be to be dishonest. There are many who follow the rules as the charter/state would have them do. :)

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The problem is that if the curriculum is religious then it cannot be counted towards any required academic subjects. The curriculum used for required subjects must be non-sectarian. Parents can supplement the non-sectarian materials with sectarian materials (just as they would if their children were in a brick and mortar public school) but they cannot use sectarian materials for the instruction required by a public school charter program. When using a charter you are a public school and only non-sectarian materials may be used for instruction during school hours and to meet charter requirements. Since Bible is not a required subject it is not subject to those requirements. Does that help?

 

Like Ellie, I have seen charters tell parents they can use sectarian materials for required academic subjects if they purchase the materials themselves and then coach parents on how to word their documentation so it will be approved by the state. I have also seen these charters fined for this practice and reverse their stance on sectarian materials (they now no longer allow any sectarian materials in order to comply with state requirements) because they don't want to be fined again. No, I didn't report them. If a charter is telling parents they can use sectarian materials for required academic subjects if the parents purchase them with their own funds they are breaking CA state law.

 

Personally, I choose not to use a charter because I do not want to use non-sectarian material for my academic subjects and then supplement with sectarian materials. I also do not want to place myself under the state government, who I believe should have no say in how I educate my children.

 

I see what you are saying here, and I'm not trying to be difficult (really!) but I'd be interested to see the caselaw and the codes relating to this. I haven't had time to research it yet.

 

I believe (and I could be wrong) but I believe state law provides that funds shall not be used for religious materials/instruction. So, stay with me here: we are talking about a family purchasing religious material themselves and instructing their children with it. This material might contain bible verses and whatnot, but the core academic content is still there and is still reported to the state as the material covered. The religious material is segregated out. Even if one was to use Ellie's example of time reporting -- the family allots a percentage of the time used toward religious instruction, which is not reported, and then the rest is reported as core academic instruction. In either case, state monies are not supporting religious instruction.

 

I think charter schools are meant to have a certain amount of flexibility -- yes, they are technically public schools. However, the homeschooling breed of charter schools are in the home. If the state prohibited families from using religious materials they purchase themselves to instruct their children in their own homes, this would be overly burdensome to the constitutional freedom of religion and that wouldn't fly.

 

On the other hand, I do think it would absolutely be illegal for a family to either use state monies to purchase sectarian materials or for a family to use purely religious instructional time to fulfill state academic instructional requirements.

 

I am still pondering this, and appreciate this discussion. I intend to research more when I get time. I'd like to see what the specific reasons for the fines were that you mentioned, including specific code and/or case citations, as well as what curricula was used and how it was used.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
I see what you are saying here, and I'm not trying to be difficult (really!) but I'd be interested to see the caselaw and the codes relating to this. I haven't had time to research it yet.

 

I believe (and I could be wrong) but I believe state law provides that funds shall not be used for religious materials/instruction. So, stay with me here: we are talking about a family purchasing religious material themselves and instructing their children with it. This material might contain bible verses and whatnot, but the core academic content is still there and is still reported to the state as the material covered. The religious material is segregated out. Even if one was to use Ellie's example of time reporting -- the family allots a percentage of the time used toward religious instruction, which is not reported, and then the rest is reported as core academic instruction. In either case, state monies are not supporting religious instruction.

 

I think charter schools are meant to have a certain amount of flexibility -- yes, they are technically public schools. However, the homeschooling breed of charter schools are in the home. If the state prohibited families from using religious materials they purchase themselves to instruct their children in their own homes, this would be overly burdensome to the constitutional freedom of religion and that wouldn't fly.

 

On the other hand, I do think it would absolutely be illegal for a family to either use state monies to purchase sectarian materials or for a family to use purely religious instructional time to fulfill state academic instructional requirements.

 

I am still pondering this, and appreciate this discussion. I intend to research more when I get time. I'd like to see what the specific reasons for the fines were that you mentioned, including specific code and/or case citations, as well as what curricula was used and how it was used.

Christian (or any other sectarian) curriculum is more than just Bible verses added to a secular text. There is a significant difference in the worldview presented which cannot be separated from the academic instruction because it's an integral part of the academic instruction. This is especially true of history and science. The charter school student is a public school student and all instruction must be non-sectarian so anything with a sectarian worldview must be added after school hours, and be in addition to the non-sectarian curricula used during school hours. I don't have time to look for the laws right now (company just arrived) but they do specifically state that all instruction must be non-sectarian.

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I'd like to see what the specific reasons for the fines were that you mentioned, including specific code and/or case citations, as well as what curricula was used and how it was used.

I did offer to e-mail articles to anyone who PM'd me. They're too long to post here. :001_smile:

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Christian (or any other sectarian) curriculum is more than just Bible verses added to a secular text. There is a significant difference in the worldview presented which cannot be separated from the academic instruction because it's an integral part of the academic instruction. This is especially true of history and science. The charter school student is a public school student and all instruction must be non-sectarian so anything with a sectarian worldview must be added after school hours, and be in addition to the non-sectarian curricula used during school hours. I don't have time to look for the laws right now (company just arrived) but they do specifically state that all instruction must be non-sectarian.

 

I guess I have to see the curriculum. I'm sure it's something that needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. I know that there are issues in history and science that could be presented differently, but I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how the religious content couldn't be segregated out without seeing the stuff.

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I did offer to e-mail articles to anyone who PM'd me. They're too long to post here. :001_smile:

 

Are those articles any more helpful than the one you actually posted? I read that one, and as I recall, it really had more to do with virtual schools than anything.

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Are those articles any more helpful than the one you actually posted? I read that one, and as I recall, it really had more to do with virtual schools than anything.

Virtual schools are charter schools. The same rules apply: they're still public schools, parents are still not supposed to use religious materials and have that count for the time they spend, and so on.

 

Did I post the HSLDA link? I don't even remember now, lol. The articles I would e-mail are Word documents, by Mary Schofield (and others). Whether they'd be "helpful" to you or not, I don't know. Mary quotes the California Constitution sections that pertain to "common schools of the state" (which includes charters, virtual or otherwise) and explains why they would be problematic for religious parents. You asked for more; this is more.

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I had asked a few questions on this previous post about why people even bother with charter schools. I didn't know that you get money!!!!!!!!

 

SO, my question is: Do many Christians use the charter schools? Do you find it difficult to implement what you would like to use? Like, I use MFW and will use TOG. I bet I couldn't if I belonged to a charter school? Is that correct?

 

I am so bummed finding out about this financial help. And it can be used for extracurricular activities!!! I have 4 kids! This would be so nice. I don't really want to answer to the public school/government though. :confused:

 

Any input would be so helpful.

 

I don't want to get into all the other discussions going on in this thread, so I'll just answer your questions with our experiences.

 

We are a Christian family and I have used two different charters in CA.

 

The first one had an actual building and provided classes for the students. My boys took science, classical music study, PE, computer, ect. In addition to the classes, they had a wide variety of curriculums to choose from for you to teach at home...Math-U-See, Singapore, Saxon, Latin for Children, Analytical Grammar, Spelling Workout, as well as all the state standard stuff. It was the parents choice though. You were required to keep a learning record and provide work samples to give to your adviser every 3 weeks. Standardized testing was also "required", but if you put up a big enough stink, you can get out of it. No other money was given. I used TOG and many of my friends used Abeka and BJU without a problem.

 

God pretty much blessed me with our current set up. :001_smile: I have an AWESOME ES (adviser) who is a Christian, homeschools her daughter, and respects my views about state standards (we don't follow them). We receive $1600 per kid per year for non-sectarian curriculum, books, supplies, classes, lessons, etc. Since I have 2 kids, it just goes into our "family pot" and I don't have to divide it up into consumables, lessons, etc. It's just there for me to use. I am able to use Christian materials, but I have to buy them. Oh...I am using TOG, Rod & Staff, and Apologia.

 

However, I have heard that it gets a little stickier and trickier once the kids hit high school. Apparently there is a list of curricula that is acceptable for high schoolers to use if they plan on attending a UC University. I can't really comment on that as I have not hit that point yet. If we are still in CA, I'll probably stop using the charters and go private then.

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Virtual schools are charter schools. The same rules apply: they're still public schools, parents are still not supposed to use religious materials and have that count for the time they spend, and so on.

 

Did I post the HSLDA link? I don't even remember now, lol. The articles I would e-mail are Word documents, by Mary Schofield (and others). Whether they'd be "helpful" to you or not, I don't know. Mary quotes the California Constitution sections that pertain to "common schools of the state" (which includes charters, virtual or otherwise) and explains why they would be problematic for religious parents. You asked for more; this is more.

 

Right, but generally virtual schools are the breed of charter which has a chosen curriculum, so the problems with which you are concerned, i.e., use of sectarian curriculum, would not arise.

 

I'm looking strictly for legal citations, not advocacy articles. But I'm not asking that you find it for me....I'll get to it when I can. :-)

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The first one had an actual building and provided classes for the students. My boys took science, classical music study, PE, computer, ect. In addition to the classes, they had a wide variety of curriculums to choose from for you to teach at home...Math-U-See, Singapore, Saxon, Latin for Children, Analytical Grammar, Spelling Workout, as well as all the state standard stuff. It was the parents choice though. You were required to keep a learning record and provide work samples to give to your adviser every 3 weeks. Standardized testing was also "required", but if you put up a big enough stink, you can get out of it. No other money was given. I used TOG and many of my friends used Abeka and BJU without a problem.

 

 

 

Which one was this? It sounds great, and I'm from the same area (I think).

 

ETA: Got your PM, thank you, you're right, too far away for us. Sounds similar to a now defunct program from around here--I thought I might actually know you.

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The parents are supposed to document how much time is spent in instruction (that's how the charter school gets paid--by how much time students [supposedly] spend in school). The parents are NOT supposed to count the time they spend using religious materials, for any subject. This particular issue is overlooked all the time, for obvious reasons.

 

This is a California Constitution issue, not a U.S. Constitution. Separation of church and state and all that rot. :001_rolleyes:

 

We've never been instructed to document the amount of clock-time spent on each or all subjects. We just have to verify that we completed something of real educational value on every scheduled school day (regular school work, field trips, etc.)

 

Which one was this? It sounds great, and I'm from the same area (I think).

 

Probably an IEW school (parent company) - maybe CWCS?

 

I'm with CWCS and I *Love* it. I have to show progress in every academic area. I'm a Christian and use secular materials that don't conflict with my faith. However, I know people who use things like Sonlight and just don't consider the specific religious books (e.g. missionary story type books) as part of their official "school." It works for them. They're still showing progress in history using non-sectarian sources (the individual non-sectarian books).

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Probably an IEW school (parent company) - maybe CWCS?

 

I'm with CWCS and I *Love* it. I have to show progress in every academic area. I'm a Christian and use secular materials that don't conflict with my faith. However, I know people who use things like Sonlight and just don't consider the specific religious books (e.g. missionary story type books) as part of their official "school." It works for them. They're still showing progress in history using non-sectarian sources (the individual non-sectarian books).

 

No, it's a BM charter in Sacto with an ILP option.

I thought it might be LPIHSP (gone now) which we used at one time.

I used an IEW school--Ocean Grove. It was fine but didn't offer its own on-site classes.

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No, it's a BM charter in Sacto with an ILP option.

I thought it might be LPIHSP (gone now) which we used at one time.

I used an IEW school--Ocean Grove. It was fine but didn't offer its own on-site classes.

 

Ocean Grove in Santa Cruz county does, so it may be different depending on location. I wish we had OG here instead of Pathways.

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Ocean Grove in Santa Cruz county does, so it may be different depending on location. I wish we had OG here instead of Pathways.

 

Really? Their own? Or do the ES's offer classes on the side? (That's what I had heard, and they used to do that over here as well. They were not technically offerings of OG, but you could use instructional funds for them. They were QUITE expensive.)

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Right, but generally virtual schools are the breed of charter which has a chosen curriculum, so the problems with which you are concerned, i.e., use of sectarian curriculum, would not arise.

Yes, they would still come up for people with strongly held religious beliefs (not only Christians) as they are deciding whether to toss out their religious world views in favor of a secular world view, lack of control on what their dc learn, freedom to take as much time as their dc need to learn--or as little, and more. And the virtual charters are still legally public schools, not private homeschooling.

 

I'm looking strictly for legal citations, not advocacy articles. But I'm not asking that you find it for me....I'll get to it when I can. :-)

I don't know what you mean by "legal citations" or "advocacy articles." Whatever. ::shrugs:: I really am finished here. Have a nice day.

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We're Christian and use a charter. I don't want to debate this whole mess so won't - but to the poster who asked about TOG and whether you could use it, probably yes. I use Sonlight with my charter. They don't buy the IGs and such - I do, with my funds. Most of the actual books though in Sonlight are secular, which are no problem to get through the charter and use for our work samples (Usborne and so forth). Anything not secular, I can buy myself. Looking at Sonlight specifically, even if I removed all non-secular materials completely and never taught using them, there would be enough to show mastery of the basic subjects each year easily.

 

In TOG, which I only used very briefly, I would say you would only have a problem with a few of the things - like Mystery of History which I believe has religion very integrated into the content? Yes, Story of the World is fine by our charter. Honestly most history books on the market are probably written by someone of one faith or another. As long as one faith doesn't permeate the content, it comes out okay in public schooling. And every textbook has some kind of bias (a topic for another thread of course), but they are looking for as balanced of a perspective as you can get.

 

Science I can see how you would run into problems with strongly Christian, young earth type of materials. That isn't my faith/belief so I can't speak to those, but I don't think they would fly for work samples in the charter I'm in. But in Sonlight in the cores I have used so far (we are finishing up core 3 now BTW), the majority of the science books would be considered secular and perfectly fine.

 

Re the unschoolers and charters - you don't need to use books at all to teach. They don't require books, just knowledge acquisition. :tongue_smilie: Seriously though, a book list is not submitted in the charter I am in at all, just topics. [You *can* of course use books and submit that list, but it is not the only way.] If you taught entirely via field trips or whatever, it would be considered fine if you had photos, videos of your trips, videos of skits done by the yours or plays, lapbooks, scrapbooks or whatever to have "something" to show.

 

Some charters are remarkably more relaxed than others in learning styles and work samples, but all I have encountered are reportedly very strict about no religious materials purchased with state funds, and that is what I hear from all. I'm not denying there probably is some abuse of the system somewhere, but it does not appear to be rampant or the norm here.

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Yes, they would still come up for people with strongly held religious beliefs (not only Christians) as they are deciding whether to toss out their religious world views in favor of a secular world view, lack of control on what their dc learn, freedom to take as much time as their dc need to learn--or as little, and more. And the virtual charters are still legally public schools, not private homeschooling.

 

 

I don't know what you mean by "legal citations" or "advocacy articles." Whatever. ::shrugs:: I really am finished here. Have a nice day.

 

 

 

I'm getting the feeling I have offended you in some way and that is truly not my intent. I apologize if I have. I am honestly perplexed by the issues I've raised, and think I've asked some reasonable questions. The difference between legal citations and advocacy articles is this: I want the statute numbers and caselaw citations, not an article by someone advocating his/her opinion(s) on an issue. I'd rather form my own opinions by reading exactly what the laws and the courts have to say. I've heard a lot about "the law says" this or that, but no concrete citations. Again, I will research this myself when I get some uninterrupted free time. Probably this weekend.

 

I've never had a question about virtual schools and never debated the fact they are public schools or otherwise. That is why I found the article you linked was not helpful in relation to my particular questions.

 

I hope that makes my position more clear. Again, I apologize for any offense.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
I'm getting the feeling I have offended you in some way and that is truly not my intent. I apologize if I have. I am honestly perplexed by the issues I've raised, and think I've asked some reasonable questions. The difference between legal citations and advocacy articles is this: I want the statute numbers and caselaw citations, not an article by someone advocating his/her opinion(s) on an issue. I'd rather form my own opinions by reading exactly what the laws and the courts have to say. I've heard a lot about "the law says" this or that, but no concrete citations. Again, I will research this myself when I get some uninterrupted free time. Probably this weekend.

 

I've never had a question about virtual schools and never debated the fact they are public schools or otherwise. That is why I found the article you linked was not helpful in relation to my particular questions.

 

I hope that makes my position more clear. Again, I apologize for any offense.

I'm not sure you're going to find what you are looking for. It's easy to search CA state law but I don't think that specifics regarding charter schools that were fined are public knowledge, and if they are easy to find if they are public knowledge. I also don't think you will understand sectarian materials and why you can't separate out "academic" material from sectarian material until you have read through them.

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I'm not sure you're going to find what you are looking for. It's easy to search CA state law but I don't think that specifics regarding charter schools that were fined are public knowledge, and if they are easy to find if they are public knowledge. I also don't think you will understand sectarian materials and why you can't separate out "academic" material from sectarian material until you have read through them.

 

Do you have any recommendations regarding specific sectarian curricula I should look at?

 

I may not find specific information re: charter school fines, unless an opinion was written, published or unpublished, but I'd still like to read the applicable laws and any caselaw out there. There's got to be something.

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I may not find specific information re: charter school fines, unless an opinion was written, published or unpublished, but I'd still like to read the applicable laws and any caselaw out there. There's got to be something.

 

I wonder if you'd be able to get specific caselaw/legal information from HSLDA?

 

Do you have any recommendations regarding specific sectarian curricula I should look at?

 

Regarding sectarian curricula, I suppose that could be something like Sonlight or Tapestry of Grace or even Rod and Staff.

 

I belong to a charter. I purchase Rod and Staff with my own money and use it for Eng. because it's one of the gentlest, most thorough grammar programs out there. It does use sentences about Biblical characters to illustrate grammatical concepts (direct objects, predicate nominative, predicate adjectives, run-on sentences, etc.) Not all the time, or even most of the time, but they're there. (Now that I think about it, Shurley English also contains Christian references.) To the ES, I report the grammatical concepts covered and skills mastered, not that x number of practice sentences drew on this or that Biblically based story or character. I imagine if there are Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, ?? based examples in others' curricula that they don't mention those, either. It isn't relevant to the state. They don't regulate a citizen's religious persuasion. As far as I can tell, they don't care, as long as state funds are not paying for it? If they started to try to regulate what I used, I'd drop out, more because I believe in R&S than that I feel I have to use Christian materials to be a Christian. I would think that's what would happen overall if the state tried to control homeschooling, so I don't understand HSLDA's conclusions that we're giving the state a foothold into controlling home schooling. If it went that way, if the state became too intrusive, home schoolers would go back to "flying under the radar." Harder, yes, but not the end of the world. But then, I'm not a legal scholar. I don't know. The arguments from HSLDA's proponents are too emotional for me to be able to figure out if I'm missing something.

 

I have no legal background, so I would not know what to look for or what I was looking at if it fell in my lap. If you do have a chance to look into this whole issue, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. Most discussions about it tend to degenerate into emotional responses rather than concrete facts and objective conclusions. :bigear:

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Most discussions about it tend to degenerate into emotional responses rather than concrete facts and objective conclusions. :bigear:

 

Sadly, this is true. It is human nature to become defensive after your feelings get hurt when you perceive an attack against your opinion and beliefs.

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Sadly, this is true. It is human nature to become defensive after your feelings get hurt when you perceive an attack against your opinion and beliefs.

 

Yes, and it always hurts both "sides" even though all the people involved are the best intentioned, just with strong feelings to one side of the issue or the other. Fortunately, most folks here "know" each other well enough not to take it personally long-term. That's one of the great thing about this forum.

 

Anyhow, that's also why it's always interesting to hear factual, objective evidence, like "here's the exact wording in CA law..."

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Yes, and it always hurts both "sides" even though all the people involved are the best intentioned, just with strong feelings to one side of the issue or the other. Fortunately, most folks here "know" each other well enough not to take it personally long-term. That's one of the great thing about this forum.

 

Anyhow, that's also why it's always interesting to also hear factual, objective evidence, like "here's the exact wording in CA law..."

 

 

:lol: I was just about to go in and edit my statement to reflect that it wasn't meant as a barb, and that I realize both sides must feel this way. It's been a good discussion overall, I think.

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Anyhow, that's also why it's always interesting to also hear factual, objective evidence, like "here's the exact wording in CA law..."

When the "exact wording in CA law..." is quoted, people never agree about what it says. It's the same way here: we've said that we know *personally* of abuses (which isn't, of course, a reason not to use a charter, but it tends to come up) and people say oh, that could never happen. :glare: Or we when we report the personal experience of someone who had a bad experience, and we heard it with our own ears, we're told that no one wants to hear "anecdotal" evidence.

 

We just get tired of it.

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When the "exact wording in CA law..." is quoted, people never agree about what it says. It's the same way here: we've said that we know *personally* of abuses (which isn't, of course, a reason not to use a charter, but it tends to come up) and people say oh, that could never happen. :glare: Or we when we report the personal experience of someone who had a bad experience, and we heard it with our own ears, we're told that no one wants to hear "anecdotal" evidence.

 

We just get tired of it.

 

You know, Ellie, it's really not this for me.

 

It's that I've experienced this from the inside myself. I've seen the way the system works. I know that I can't have Bible quotes on my work samples. I know that I can't order religious materials with public funds. I have thought through very carefully whether or not this is acceptable to me. So in that context, I've considered the CHEA arguments against it, and I think they are overwrought and poorly researched.

 

I do see some dangers, but the part about how if we are public schoolers on any level we have given up responsibility for our children's education is ridiculous. Yes, charter ISP's are public schools. There are a lot of great Christian parents who send their children to public schools of many types, including charter ISP's. It doesn't mean that they have given up all responsibility or control of their children's education, not at all. So that's a specious argument that CHEA makes, and frankly they ought to know better.

 

It's true that I don't use fully integrated Christian materials for all my homeschooling, but even if I did, I would be able to follow the rules of the charter by using their funds for secular classes, like piano lessons, or for study materials, like lab or art supplies. I don't use fully integrated Christian materials for all of my homeschooling because I just don't want to. This has nothing to do with my use of the ISP.

 

I don't think that anyone is saying that abuses could never have happened, but those of us who have been in such charters recently have trouble picturing how they could occur right now. And it's difficult to accept the idea that our experiences are completely discounted as well. The CHEA attitude is that they know the truth and we are ignorant, and that is self-righteous and very annoying, and somewhat inaccurate.

 

There IS a real danger in public ISP's, and it is that as they become more popular it's easy to imagine that there will be attempts to make them mandatory on all homeschoolers. That would be truly terrible. Right now we have much more freedom both inside and outside the charters because we have many alternatives. That's the argument that CHEA could make accurately and strongly.

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When the "exact wording in CA law..." is quoted, people never agree about what it says.

 

What it literally says is not a matter of opinion. People don't agree on what it means.

 

Some of us in the middle are more interested in what is literally spelled out in the statutes because the words are there in black and white. Period. How different legal scholars interpret them can vary, and different legal scholars might see potential threats to their particular agenda. They emphasize those threats in their communications to us non-legal types. Each "side" gets its adherents who might not understand the technical legal arguments themselves and then it all gets blurry and emotional.

 

we've said that we know *personally* of abuses .... people say oh, that could never happen. :glare: Or we when we report the personal experience of someone who had a bad experience, and we heard it with our own ears, we're told that no one wants to hear "anecdotal" evidence.

 

Nobody has said that could never happen, Ellie, unless you can point me to a post I've missed. People have said that abuses can happen, but just because it can happen does not mean that it always happens. Individual anecdotes (One? Two? Even three hundred) do not prove a case. It's an emotional appeal, Ellie, not an objective, logical argument against a Christian using a charter or against any home schooler using a charter.

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No, it's a BM charter in Sacto with an ILP option.

I thought it might be LPIHSP (gone now) which we used at one time.

I used an IEW school--Ocean Grove. It was fine but didn't offer its own on-site classes.

 

 

Can you clarify what school this is?

I am also in No. California.

Thanks

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There IS a real danger in public ISP's, and it is that as they become more popular it's easy to imagine that there will be attempts to make them mandatory on all homeschoolers.

 

Yes. This is the single argument against a home schooler using a charter that I've heard that I think could be accurate and that I do wonder about. Am I jeopardizing the freedom to home school as I want by supporting a charter?

 

I just don't have the background to know how realistic or imminent this theoretical threat is. If the government became too intrusive, home schoolers who object would stop supporting the ISPs. I guess HSLDA's argument would be that that will be too late.

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Yes. This is the single argument against a home schooler using a charter that I've heard that I think could be accurate and that I do wonder about. Am I jeopardizing the freedom to home school as I want by supporting a charter?

 

I just don't have the background to know how realistic or imminent this theoretical threat is. If the government became too intrusive, home schoolers who object would stop supporting the ISPs. I guess HSLDA's argument would be that that will be too late.

 

I don't know either. I have not heard any rumbles, and I think that I would. I wish that there were some statistics on the proportion of homeschoolers in CA who use these programs, and how that is changing from one year to the next.

 

I suspect that the programs will be done away with or sharply curtailed anyway, sometime in the next 5 years, unless the CA budget situation improves. It seems like a no-brainer in a fiscal crisis--why give those homeschoolers any money when they would still probably homeschool even if we didn't?

 

HSLDA won't let you join if you're in a public charter, and locally the HEART academy won't take anyone who is not in HSLDA. So there are some practicalities to balance into the decision of taking or not taking charter ISP funds as well as the intangibles. But most of the other coops that I know of don't have a position on it.

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I don't know either. I have not heard any rumbles, and I think that I would. I wish that there were some statistics on the proportion of homeschoolers in CA who use these programs, and how that is changing from one year to the next.

 

I suspect that the programs will be done away with or sharply curtailed anyway, sometime in the next 5 years, unless the CA budget situation improves. It seems like a no-brainer in a fiscal crisis--why give those homeschoolers any money when they would still probably homeschool even if we didn't?

 

I can't say for everywhere or everyone, but I've have seen a definite increase in the amount of homebased charter school families over the last 3 years, some even switching from becoming independent homeschoolers-christian and non-because of the economy. $1600 per child is a lot of money. I also hear from most homeschoolers that if the state or school became too intrusive then they would leave the program. Also, in the last 6 months, I've had an increase in inquiries about homeschooling from parents looking to becoming first time homeschooler because of the budget cuts.

 

Because a lot of school districts (ok, at least 3 that I know of) are getting smarter and running home based charters and homeschooling programs out of their school district. They are not losing students to private homeschooling or other charters, and the overhead and such on a program is cheaper than running a regular school, so the district is actually saving/making money.

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Yes. This is the single argument against a home schooler using a charter that I've heard that I think could be accurate and that I do wonder about. Am I jeopardizing the freedom to home school as I want by supporting a charter?

 

I just don't have the background to know how realistic or imminent this theoretical threat is. If the government became too intrusive, home schoolers who object would stop supporting the ISPs. I guess HSLDA's argument would be that that will be too late.

 

This was debated quite a bit during the court case a couple years ago now (?? time is moving fast). The local list, composed of quite a high percentage of charter users, rallied together to discuss, write letters and prepare for a fight, as homeschoolers not little factions of charter versus private ISP versus PSA filer.

 

Here, it appears that the charter user percentage is growing, but I think charters are also an entrance to homeschooling for those who would not have made the leap from a traditional school to independent homeschooling, thus increasing the percentage of homeschoolers as a whole. That makes all of us stronger, if we stop bickering among ourselves. My park day group has several who feel the security of a charter is what they want or need at this point, considering perhaps independent filing in the future. It is good to see new families homeschooling, charter or no charter ... the homeschooling percentage continues to grow, and that IMHO is such a fantastic thing.

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It is good to see new families homeschooling, charter or no charter ... the homeschooling percentage continues to grow, and that IMHO is such a fantastic thing.

 

:iagree:

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