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Yet Another Handwriting s/o. "Loopy" Cursive or Italic Cursive? And why?


Spy Car
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I am stuck. And getting swept along in the inertia of PS handwriting--not a situation I'm savoring.

 

I'm ho-hum about most of the Loopy American cursive styles. I do like several of the European styles in terms of "look" but are they efficient? And on a practical level I don't know where I'd get the materials.

 

I've been leaning towards Getty-Dubay Italic Cursive which seems clean, modern and efficient, but lacks a certain something compared with the hands used by my parents and grandparents.

 

So what to do? What do you do?

 

Bill (over-thinker :tongue_smilie:)

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Just yesterday I decided to switch our handwriting to Getty-Dubay Italic Cursive. It looks modern, clean, and easy to read.

 

We printed off a few practice sheets from StartWrite. My daughter is so excited, she's been practicing all day! I should have the books in next week.

 

We have done HWT print and cursive from PreK all the way to 4th grade cursive. She has very neat, small handwriting now, but the Getty-Dubay Italic/Cursive will give her a little more flair. :) I also think that it will enable her to have efficient, fast, yet still pretty handwriting. It's how I handwrite - combo of print/cursive.

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Perhaps you need to decide what is most important to you - instilling the beautiful loopiness of the traditional scripts, or maximizing speed and legibility.

 

I went with Barchowsky Fluent Hand (similar to Getty-Dubay I think) in part because my own handwriting was poor and I wanted something I could use along with my dc. I also wanted to minimize the differences between the print letter formations and the running-hand forms.

 

FWIW.

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"loopy" cursive hasn't been taught in schools here in the UK for decades. I can't even read it myself. My dd9 uses GD but we leave out the "fancy" bits on the uppercase letters. My ds's use HWT and the plan is to teach them joined print myself. It is very simple, I don't think you need a curriculum to do it but there are workbooks available in "sassoon font" on amazon or google sassoon font (don't know how to link it myself:confused:)

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Perhaps you need to decide what is most important to you - instilling the beautiful loopiness of the traditional scripts, or maximizing speed and legibility.

 

 

You are no doubt correct, but therein lies the rub.

 

Part of me thinks it would be senseless to learn anything other than a modern, clean, efficient, readable script.

 

Another part thinks, in this modern era where so much communication is being done electronically (and will only increase in the future) what purpose will cursive handwriting serve? It is then that I think of writing invitations, sending thank you notes, letters of condolence, and important personal correspondence. The handwritten elements of social graces. And I think, is Italic Cursive a hand that works for this purpose?

 

I then I think, but what about the rest of the time? You going to instill a slow cursive style on those grounds. And so a battle rages in my mind.

 

Learning both is an obvious compromise, but really? Not so practical, or is it?

 

And now I get a three (or even four) way war going :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

Edited by Spy Car
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Can you give me examples of what you are talking about? After seeing my husband's cursive I wouldn't want to emulate it (he is from Germany). :lol:

 

Here is a link to a free font site that has some German school scripts in loopy, italic and manuscript. I (for the most part) prefer the capital letter formation to the American public school script I was raised on.

 

http://www.fontspace.com/schulshriften

 

Bill

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I can't stand GB italics. It just doesn't look like real cursive to me. I've heard great things about HWT but unfortunately its just sooooo ugly.

 

I'm leaning towards Zaner-Bloser because I've heard the program is great, and the style is tolerable.

 

I learned with D'Nealian in PS and I love my handwriting. It's not so great that it gets compliments but I write fast and consistently and I think my handwriting looks "mature" for lack of a better word - not very loopy. I notice a lot of adults, particularly women, have a style that makes me think they're 13 years-old so I think I get what you're saying about loopiness :)

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or maximizing speed and legibility.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm in the camp of maximizing speed and legibility. We've been using HWT and it has been successful for my kids but I do see the cursive slows down my DS quite a bit.

 

I'm considering switching to something the really increases the speed and legibility but is easy for him to learn.

:bigear:

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I can't stand GB italics. It just doesn't look like real cursive to me. I've heard great things about HWT but unfortunately its just sooooo ugly.

 

I'm leaning towards Zaner-Bloser because I've heard the program is great, and the style is tolerable.

 

The lower case looks fine, but the Z-B upper-case leaves me cold.

 

I learned with D'Nealian in PS and I love my handwriting. It's not so great that it gets compliments but I write fast and consistently and I think my handwriting looks "mature" for lack of a better word - not very loopy. I notice a lot of adults, particularly women, have a style that makes me think they're 13 years-old so I think I get what you're saying about loopiness :)

 

I guess everyone to some extent develops a personal style, but I do wonder if they have to because what they are taught in PS doesn't work. I dunno.

 

Bill

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Is your son's school supportive of his using something non-standard? I learned American printing in K-1, was forcibly switched to French school cursive in 2nd, and forcibly switched again to US school D'Nealian in 3rd grade, all of which my left-handed mom tried to remediate with me, her right-handed child. I consistently got "needs improvement" on my report cards in handwriting, which irked me as a kid. The mish-mash I ended up with is legible, but pretty darn strange, and my hand used to cramp up taking notes in college.

 

If his teachers are willing to accept some other style I'd be all for something more attractive, but if he's going to need to write "their way" at school, throwing another style into the mix may prove frustrating.

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The lower case looks fine, but the Z-B upper-case leaves me cold.

 

 

Yes, I much prefer to uppercase without the extra loops. If we do ZB I'll probably simplify quite a bit. I just started researching this but so far its tough to find both a style and teaching method that I really like so I definitely understand the dilemma.

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Yes, I much prefer to uppercase without the extra loops. If we do ZB I'll probably simplify quite a bit. I just started researching this but so far its tough to find both a style and teaching method that I really like so I definitely understand the dilemma.

 

If you figure it out PM me, OK?

 

Bill

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Is your son's school supportive of his using something non-standard?

 

I'm not inclined to ask :D

 

In all seriousness I don't know. I'm thinking they are (like most schools) so busy "teaching to the test" (although in fairness I am quite happy with our school generally speaking) that handwriting skills are hardly a priority. Eventually they will figure out that we've been doing non-standard math, phonics, with grammar coming, so handwriting may be the least of it.

 

I learned American printing in K-1, was forcibly switched to French school cursive in 2nd, and forcibly switched again to US school D'Nealian in 3rd grade, all of which my left-handed mom tried to remediate with me, her right-handed child. I consistently got "needs improvement" on my report cards in handwriting, which irked me as a kid. The mish-mash I ended up with is legible, but pretty darn strange, and my hand used to cramp up taking notes in college.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand the French schools still take handwriting ultra-seriously, yes?

 

If his teachers are willing to accept some other style I'd be all for something more attractive, but if he's going to need to write "their way" at school, throwing another style into the mix may prove frustrating.

 

I think it has become such a neglected subject that having a somewhat different style (at least to use at home) would not be a big deal. I could be wrong about that.

 

Bill

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Haven't read the whole thread.

 

I chose a loopy cursive for my oldest because that is what I prefer aesthetically. Also, my oldest really likes fancy handwriting. I'm sure he'll learn calligraphy too, just because.

 

With my middle ds I'm thinking of going with the modern style. I really don't like the way it looks, but I think it suits his personality.

 

Sorry, there is no science to my decision making on this one.:)

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About the French writing-- yes, in the early 80s at least they were quite serious; kids learned cursive before printing (so I was already "behind" there), and "different" styles were not permitted (at least at my school). Either French or American would have been fine alone, it was the fact that I was made to change them around every few years during the "formative period" when I was learning to write that really messed me up. I wish I could have just stuck with one!

 

I'll be interested to hear how this goes for you. I kind of worry that if handwriting is indeed a neglected area how, teachers would be even more likely to "check the box" of sameness rather than stand back and decide that legibility is more important than matching a standard style.

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I'm in the camp of maximizing speed and legibility. We've been using HWT and it has been successful for my kids but I do see the cursive slows down my DS quite a bit.

 

I'm considering switching to something the really increases the speed and legibility but is easy for him to learn.

:bigear:

 

It might just be a matter of time & practice for the speed to be faster. My DS8 learned cursive HWT a few years ago and at first he was slow but has really started to pick up the pace just recently.

 

The lower case looks fine, but the Z-B upper-case leaves me cold.

 

 

I guess everyone to some extent develops a personal style, but I do wonder if they have to because what they are taught in PS doesn't work. I dunno.

 

Bill

 

Maybe you'd like Calvert Script?

https://store.calvertschool.org/pc-8-50-writing-fun-kit.aspx

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Just yesterday I decided to switch our handwriting to Getty-Dubay Italic Cursive. It looks modern, clean, and easy to read.

 

We printed off a few practice sheets from StartWrite. My daughter is so excited, she's been practicing all day! I should have the books in next week.

 

We have done HWT print and cursive from PreK all the way to 4th grade cursive. She has very neat, small handwriting now, but the Getty-Dubay Italic/Cursive will give her a little more flair. :) I also think that it will enable her to have efficient, fast, yet still pretty handwriting. It's how I handwrite - combo of print/cursive.

 

Since you used HWT cursive, maybe you can help me! Ds1 is on the last printing book. He's a lefty through and through. I've considered switching to Getty-Dubay recently because that's what my mishmash of handwriting lessons over the years of switching schools has lead my handwriting to evolve into. And I like my handwriting. :) However I have read that HWT cursive is best for a lefty. Do you think he will benefit from the HWT or should I just go with Getty-Dubay?

 

Sorry to hijack Bill. :bigear:

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We are also switching to Getty-Dubay Italics as of this week. Why? Mainly because I HATE the way almost all of the capital letters are formed with traditional "loopy" cursive. I read a study once that said 99% of people who were taught traditional cursive do not write all of their letters the way they were taught. Ultimately almost everyone begins to use a hybrid of print/cursive or some other flair that is their own.

 

I guess my line of thinking is why teach my dd something that she has a 99% chance of not using anyway, so I'm just going to go ahead and teach her a print/cursive type of handwriting to start with (GB Italics). I know that not teaching her traditional cursive will not keep her from being able to read it because she has already read some books that have passages written in cursive and did just fine figuring them out.

 

As for which is faster, I have no idea! I figure by the time my dd gets to college and out in the "real" world everyone will have some kind of mini I-pad that they carry around to make notes on, so I'm focusing my speed issues into keyboarding. :D

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Also, how effective do you think Getty-Dubay will be in preparing children to read the fancy old cursive (that I can barely decipher at times)? Or is 'reading cursive' a whole separate subject?

 

I think reading traditional cursive is a separate subject.

 

We've been using GD handwriting. My mother writes letters to my son that he reads (under duress). I probably should type up some things using a cursive font so he gets more practice reading, but I don't see many people use traditional cursive.

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I am stuck. And getting swept along in the inertia of PS handwriting--not a situation I'm savoring.

 

I'm ho-hum about most of the Loopy American cursive styles. I do like several of the European styles in terms of "look" but are they efficient? And on a practical level I don't know where I'd get the materials.

 

I've been leaning towards Getty-Dubay Italic Cursive which seems clean, modern and efficient, but lacks a certain something compared with the hands used by my parents and grandparents.

 

So what to do? What do you do?

 

Bill (over-thinker :tongue_smilie:)

 

In theory, Bill, I agree with you. I think real cursive is lovely. Unfortunately I've taught two children cursive and while they certainly put forth effort, it's never as perfect, as lovely, and as readable as it should be. :)

 

Italics. I love italics.

 

I taught two the traditional way. Now I have two working on italics. I'm sold.

 

And I wouldn't steer you wrong. You're the one who turned me onto cold press coffee. :D I owe you.

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Timely thread!

 

I just yesterday gave up the fight to get my oldest to learn the pretty Peterson Direct cursive and switched her to the IMHO hideously ugly New American Cursive. Every time I see it, it makes me :ack2: but at this point, I just want her to be able to write *SOME* form of cursive legibly.

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In theory, Bill, I agree with you. I think real cursive is lovely. Unfortunately I've taught two children cursive and while they certainly put forth effort, it's never as perfect, as lovely, and as readable as it should be. :)

 

Italics. I love italics.

 

I taught two the traditional way. Now I have two working on italics. I'm sold.

 

And I wouldn't steer you wrong. You're the one who turned me onto cold press coffee. :D I owe you.

 

Nice :001_smile:

 

Italics is the direction in which I lean. But, darn it all, there is this "traditionalist" who lives in my head that sometimes makes my life difficult :D

 

Bill

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I prefer the Modern American cursive, because every lowercase letter starts at the base line. We made the transition to cursive last summer when dd was 5yo, and this was just very practical. It is the font that is used in the Cursive First program, and they have a sample on their website. It is also an option in the StartWrite software, which I use to make my own copywork.

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I let my dd choose among the cursive styles from samples we found. Anarchy, I know, but that is the way I parent sometimes. Cursive was non-negotiable, but style choice was all hers. She finally settled on ZB for lower case and something else for most upper case because she thought Z upper case was ugly and strange - Q and Z are some of the the big problems with these fonts.

 

For my ds that learned in ps, he had to do GD Italic cursive. It was the only thing we tried which allowed him to produce legible handwriting.

 

I'm starting the youngest in GD Italic print then depending on her writing later will either go with GD Italic cursive or let her choose her own.

Edited by Karen in CO
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I went with G-D mainly because I liked how it looked. But I also feel like there's less potential for my DS--who so far does not seem inclined to have particularly neat penmanship--to end up with completely illegible script that way. Sure, traditional, loopy cursive looks nice when it's done well, but when it's done badly, it's pretty much impossible to read. I think the fact that we're talking about the difficulty children might have reading traditional cursive speaks to that; it's not only because looping letters look different, but because traditional cursive can become illegible really quickly and can require quite a bit of effort to decipher.

 

I'm always surprised how few of my students (college freshman, usually), when I have them do in class writing, actually use script. Most, especially the males, print. I'm assuming that most of them learned traditional cursive, because that seems to be what's taught in the schools here. They're just not using it, for whatever reason, and writing by hand tends to be a really laborious process for them because of it.

 

I don't know if my DS will be more likely to use italic cursive than my students are to use traditional cursive, but I do think italic cursive is pretty much a nicer-looking version of the print/script hybrid most adults I know, especially males, end up using anyway.

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Wow, before this, I didn't realize there were different styles of cursive to teach. I thought that there was only one type of cursive. Boy was I wrong:) Now the wheels are going in my head on which type I need to teach. And here I thought cursive would be the one subject I would not have to hassle over choosing 'which one to use.'

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...However I have read that HWT cursive is best for a lefty. Do you think he will benefit from the HWT or should I just go with Getty-Dubay?

 

- Here are some helpful links for left-handed Italic writers.

- A short video about left-handed pen hold and angle.

- Left-handed hand positioning from Getty-Dubay's book.

 

So question, how much "faster" is an Italic cursive over a "loopy" cursive style?

 

Does an Italic maximize speed, and by how much?

 

In my experience, cursive can be written fast, but it doesn't look like cursive then. It looks like an ugly hybrid of print and cursive that I wouldn't want to look at again. If I were examining my own college papers, I wouldn't like what I saw.

 

I can't quantify by how much it speeds up my own writing, but later next week, I can scan and post a few samples of my old hybrid cursive and my new Italic writing.

 

Italics is the direction in which I lean. But, darn it all, there is this "traditionalist" who lives in my head that sometimes makes my life difficult

 

FWIW, Italics is both older and more modern than the so-called "traditional" cursive.

:)

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In my experience, cursive can be written fast, but it doesn't look like cursive then. It looks like an ugly hybrid of print and cursive that I wouldn't want to look at again. If I were examining my own college papers, I wouldn't like what I saw.

 

I know the feeling. My mother, father, and wife all have beautiful handwriting. I can "print" very neatly, but my cursive looks like I learned it in the 3rd Grade.

 

I can't quantify by how much it speeds up my own writing, but later next week, I can scan and post a few samples of my old hybrid cursive and my new Italic writing.

 

I would like to see that if you find the time.

 

FWIW, Italics is both older and more modern than the so-called "traditional" cursive.

:)

 

OK, now you have really confused the battle-lines :D

 

Bill

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Timely thread!

 

I just yesterday gave up the fight to get my oldest to learn the pretty Peterson Direct cursive and switched her to the IMHO hideously ugly New American Cursive. Every time I see it, it makes me :ack2: but at this point, I just want her to be able to write *SOME* form of cursive legibly.

:( I was just going to post to say that Peterson lived up to its hype; dd8 writes pretty much like their 3rd-grade sample, except with skinnier loops, and she even decided to do her capitals in the Catholic National Reader style (scroll to bottom) because they looked even prettier than the Peterson capitals.

 

Her cursive is pretty darn fast, too; at least compared to her print. I put it down to the rhythmic upstroke/downstroke method of Peterson. And for some reason, her spelling is infinitely better when writing in cursive.

 

So any thoughts about what made Peterson not work for your family?

Edited by Sharon in Austin
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I decided to use GDI for my son next year. I was taught traditional cursive, and my cursive is horrid. It's either completely illegible, or it looks like a third grader wrote it, to borrow Bill's words.

 

What sealed the deal for me was showing my son different cursive fonts and asking which one he wanted to learn. I was already leaning toward GDI, and that's the one he picked. :D we start it next week or so (whenever the workbook comes in). I've played with the samples and Startwrite, and I really like it. I plan to relearn handwriting myself!

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Wow, before this, I didn't realize there were different styles of cursive to teach. I thought that there was only one type of cursive. Boy was I wrong:) Now the wheels are going in my head on which type I need to teach. And here I thought cursive would be the one subject I would not have to hassle over choosing 'which one to use.'

:lol:

Every time I come to this forum I learn something new- and it induces a head spinning feeling at times

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So any thoughts about what made Peterson not work for your family?

 

DD complains that the letters have "too many loops". She may have some dysgraphia/fine motor issues going on. It took her *FOREVER* to learn to tie her shoes and she has struggled mightily with piano/keyboard and recorder even though she is highly motivated to learn an instrument. As soon as our new health insurance kicks in, I'm planning to get her an Occupational Therapy assessment.

 

I'm using some of the Peterson techniques with NAC but allowing her to make the simplified letters.

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It is then that I think of writing invitations, sending thank you notes, letters of condolence, and important personal correspondence. The handwritten elements of social graces. And I think, is Italic Cursive a hand that works for this purpose?
If your son is interested in continuing after the main series, GDI has a final unit: Italic Letters: Calligraphy and Handwriting. The sample pages at Amazon may be enough to convince you that a more formal elegance is attainable with italics.
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Getty and Dubay have also produced a book for adults--I want to say the title is Write Now--and (if you can get over the cheesy title) you might take a quick look at that, as it gives several examples of ways people have adapted the style. Some of them are more formal, some of them less; it's more flexible than the intro texts might indicate.

 

I'm a fan of Getty-Dubay and am teaching it because it's what I use. For what it's worth, I learned cursive in an American school, and then re-learned it in a German school (after an absolutely humiliating speech about how "in Germany we write legibly" :)). I then modified it for American legibility when I was in an American high school, and that's what I kept for a long time. I fell in love with Write Now because the script seemed so much cleaner. And yes, much faster, which was very important to me--at the time I was grading many, many papers and a fast but legible handwriting made a big difference in my life.

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Italics is the direction in which I lean. But, darn it all, there is this "traditionalist" who lives in my head that sometimes makes my life difficult

So, teach your son italics and YOU learn loops!:D

 

(BTW, I taught myself G-D italic cursive a few years ago and love.it. A great improvement on my PS learned loopy writing.)

 

Best wishes.

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Not a big fan of most people's loopy cursive. The only people I know who write like this are very old and/or were/are elementary school teachers. I have no problem with sort of a linked printing, as this is what I developed for myself. I have no memory in writing in regular type of cursive since about 9th grade except maybe for some flourish on something.

 

I think it would be nice to work on regular handwriting and then move to calligraphy as an art form. I do think the French have a nice style of handwriting.

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Hey Bill, I thought of you today when I received 4 cards from a family who was thanking me for having them over. The parents sent one card, written by the mom, using traditional cursive. Then each of the 3 children (two boys in high school and a girl in middle school) each wrote a card in different fonts. The oldest boy wrote in italic cursive, the younger boy wrote in regular old print, and the girl wrote in something resembling italic print.

 

The nicest looking card, handwriting wise? The boy who wrote in italic cursive. It is gorgeous! Granted, he just has nice handwriting in general, but it looked much better than even the traditional loopy cursive that his mother wrote (and her writing isn't bad - it just isn't as pretty as the italic). I think the italic cursive almost looks like calligraphy, hence why it looks so nice and formal. The girl's italic print was nice looking, but just not formal looking. It was perfectly fine for a note like this. The regular print... not very good handwriting to begin with, and it was definitely the most "childish" looking of the 4 cards. I think it's hard to make regular print look "nice". Italic print is better for casual, yet nice looking, IMO.

 

So I would say YES, italic cursive looks very nice in handwritten notes. I seriously could not believe how nice this card looked when I opened it. I can only dream that my child would write that well. :lol:

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I plan to do traditional cursive (I'm tempted to look at Cursive First), but for those doing GD italics, I'm wondering what was the primary reason for choosing that program:

 

-speed

-style

-ease of writing

 

I guess I keep wondering, what's so hard about cursive anyway? Here's something I plan to show my son in future years if he ever complains about handwriting practice :)

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1374211/Outstanding-penmanship-award-goes--boy-hands.html

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The nicest looking card, handwriting wise? The boy who wrote in italic cursive. It is gorgeous!
Could you attach a picture, if there's a bit that's not too personal?
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Could you attach a picture, if there's a bit that's not too personal?

 

I can do an excerpt. :)

 

IMAG0282-1.jpg

 

It wasn't "perfect", but for writing a long note (and most of the card was full), that looks really good to me. It's certainly way better than I write, *especially* in cursive.

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I can do an excerpt. :)

 

IMAG0282-1.jpg

 

It wasn't "perfect", but for writing a long note (and most of the card was full), that looks really good to me. It's certainly way better than I write, *especially* in cursive.

Thank you, it's beautiful. :)
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Hey Bill, I thought of you today when I received 4 cards from a family who was thanking me for having them over. The parents sent one card, written by the mom, using traditional cursive. Then each of the 3 children (two boys in high school and a girl in middle school) each wrote a card in different fonts. The oldest boy wrote in italic cursive, the younger boy wrote in regular old print, and the girl wrote in something resembling italic print.

 

The nicest looking card, handwriting wise? The boy who wrote in italic cursive. It is gorgeous! Granted, he just has nice handwriting in general, but it looked much better than even the traditional loopy cursive that his mother wrote (and her writing isn't bad - it just isn't as pretty as the italic). I think the italic cursive almost looks like calligraphy, hence why it looks so nice and formal. The girl's italic print was nice looking, but just not formal looking. It was perfectly fine for a note like this. The regular print... not very good handwriting to begin with, and it was definitely the most "childish" looking of the 4 cards. I think it's hard to make regular print look "nice". Italic print is better for casual, yet nice looking, IMO.

 

So I would say YES, italic cursive looks very nice in handwritten notes. I seriously could not believe how nice this card looked when I opened it. I can only dream that my child would write that well. :lol:

 

Thank you for this! It is actually the direction in which I'd like to be pushed. I think.

 

Bill

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I can do an excerpt. :)

 

IMAG0282-1.jpg

 

It wasn't "perfect", but for writing a long note (and most of the card was full), that looks really good to me. It's certainly way better than I write, *especially* in cursive.

 

Very nice!

 

Thank you so much. I think I'm getting convinced.

 

Bill

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We are also switching to Getty-Dubay Italics as of this week. Why? Mainly because I HATE the way almost all of the capital letters are formed with traditional "loopy" cursive. I read a study once that said 99% of people who were taught traditional cursive do not write all of their letters the way they were taught. Ultimately almost everyone begins to use a hybrid of print/cursive or some other flair that is their own.

 

:iagree:

 

I went with G-D mainly because I liked how it looked. But I also feel like there's less potential for my DS--who so far does not seem inclined to have particularly neat penmanship--to end up with completely illegible script that way. Sure, traditional, loopy cursive looks nice when it's done well, but when it's done badly, it's pretty much impossible to read.

 

****

 

I'm always surprised how few of my students (college freshman, usually), when I have them do in class writing, actually use script. Most, especially the males, print. I'm assuming that most of them learned traditional cursive, because that seems to be what's taught in the schools here. They're just not using it, for whatever reason, and writing by hand tends to be a really laborious process for them because of it.

 

I don't know if my DS will be more likely to use italic cursive than my students are to use traditional cursive, but I do think italic cursive is pretty much a nicer-looking version of the print/script hybrid most adults I know, especially males, end up using anyway.

 

:iagree:

 

I think the italic cursive almost looks like calligraphy, hence why it looks so nice and formal.

 

:iagree:

 

Agreeing strongly with all of these points! :lol:

 

After much deliberation, we chose GD as well. FWIW, my DH was raised in Europe with a different loopy script. I will say that most people there actually do write in script, and that much of it is very hard to read....

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