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At what age from Grammar to Logic...?


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Our oldest is only 8.5, so I'm thinking ahead here...


I read about the passage from Grammar- to Logic-Stage in a couple of places and quite often the age of 12 (ca. 7th grade) comes up as the approximate "age of passage", as opposed to SWB's suggestion of approximately 10 (5th grade).


While her suggestion of dividing formal schooling into three equal blocks of 4 years makes sense, I have to admit that somehow 12 years for a passage into the logic stage seems more reasonable...


I know these things depend highly on the individual child,...but I would still like to hear your thoughts and maybe your experiences concerning this "rite of passage"...

...as a mother of a great (obviously;)...) very typical boy I just don't see us anywhere close to "being logic"...:scared:

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Well, I don't know if this will help or cause you more confusion, but I would argue the following:


(1.) The logic stage is more of a gradual process than a magic age. It was about a two year process for my oldest dd and about a 6 month process for my next dd.


(2.) They enter logic stage in different subjects at different times. My oldest dd entered logic in math last. She was there in everything else, and I didn't realize that some subjects could lag behind, so it frustrated both of us.


(3.) You could still do four-year cycles, but jump your dc up to logic or rhetoric when they were developmentally ready within that framework.

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Thanks, Angela!


...you are certainly right, that it's more of a"gradual passage" than a "big bang"...;)


As far as the cycle is concerned, it doesn't really matter to us, as we are anyways only starting now with our first SOTW-round...


So, with ds in 3rd, he is the one who is "off"...

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Logic stage is a gradual process. You will find that a child will go into logic stage more so in some subjects, but not in others.


However, we have to remember that the logic stage is the time where the child questions the facts that are presented to them. The purpose in grammar stage is you are to just give them the facts. Facts about science or facts about grammar. If you notice in many classical programs like Veritas Press, they don't offer a full science program in grammar stage just memorizing facts. Once the child has knowledge of the facts, then the facts can be questioned. This is logic stage. Now, you can do more scientific experiments. How does a magnet pull objects?


Rhetoric stage is whether or not the child will accept the facts as their own or reject it. In this stage, the child needs to be able to argue either for or against why they have taken these steps.


Biblically, it is a process called knowledge, understanding, and wisdom. Knowledge is grammar stage. Understanding is logic. Wisdom is rhetoric.



Blessings in your homeschooling journey!





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I listened to a seminar on CD by Marcia Somerville (writer of Tapestry of Grace) and she was describing the 3 stages....I can't remember her exact words, but she described moving into the logic/dialectic stage as corresponding with hormones, puberty, etc. All their (the students') emotions are all over the place, their minds are bouncing like a super-ball from one thing to another, and the logic stage discussions help them categorize, make connections and line things up in a more organized fashion.


So maybe you can look for signs of puberty (ack!) - If Marcia is correct, I'll be praying the logic stage doesn't hit till about age 25 or so. ;)


On a serious note, maybe this is why people have said their boys seem to move into logic stage a little later (and stay longer?) than girls....It also may be why age 12 makes a little more sense in some ways than age 9 or 10.


I should say, I really know nothing about this yet, as my kids are only 6 and 3. So take everything I say with a grain or 12 of salt, please.




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For my dd, it seemed to happen (gradually) through sixth grade. She just got more and more independent in her studies, and started digging deeper, not minding extra writing and taking on more and more work. She'll be going into seventh grade, and I'll be totally changing the way she'll be doing school. She'll be given lists and schedule, but she'll be responsible for getting everything done.


My ds will be going into fifth grade. I still have to sit with him through most subjects, explaining things, keeping him on track and helping him over the bumps. We're doing some logic stage skills, like outlining, but I'm still spoon feeding him the material to put in his outline. He is beginning to argue more, but he's not showing the maturity for more responsibility. I don't expect things to change much for him much in fifth grade, at least not at first. By the end of the year, I'll be expecting more independence (more "I can do it myself" behavior"). By the end of sixth, I hope he'll be as independent as his older sister is at that age. We'll see.

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I think it does depend on the individual child. I would say that age 11 was more "it" for my older son, but my younger definitely hit it this year, just before turning 10. You'll know when it comes, LOL.....


As with all things, even after entering this stage, every child will progress differently through it. So some may be ready to fully integrate almost immediately, and others will make a gradual progression over the course of maybe a couple of years.


When you think they're ready to start that voyage, I think you just tend to start trying out things and see what works, pulling back on those things they're still just not quite ready for and trying them again later.

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I also think it's more about being able to think abstractly. So, inferencing and predicting and cross-curricular connections just sort of naturally happen. Yes, you ramp up the expectations in 5th grade, and you talk and talk and talk, and one day, out from underneath all the emotions and immaturity will come some pretty profound statement that will just blow you out of the water and you think, "Wow, I guess we're there," even though you couldn't tell you were going ANY-where.




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I have had this discussion many times, and I think my dd, who is very bright and capable, is only now, at nearly 14, really in the Logic stage. It hasn't been sudden though. Ds12 is distinctly thinking differently from a year or two ago, but I think my kids are both fairly late maturers (they seem to be on the physical level too).

It is gradual, and I like the 4 year cycles SWB has set up (which I have alway seen as somewhat artificial constructs, but useful). It's not like she expects kids to be "in" the Logic stage deeply...they will just be slowly changing and its time to change the style of work gradually. It doesnt mean you already have to be thinking logically....it comes when it comes and they can be guided gently to start making sense of the world they are becoming more and more aware of. (In Waldorf philosophy I think it is the year they turn 9, kids supposedly come out of the cocoon they have been in in their early childhood, and start really seeing the word as it is, which can be a shock for some kids.)

And, I must admit, i did hold back with my son. Although my daughter didn't seem to be remotely interested in thinking deeply about her work, she could do Logic puzzles as easy as anything. Yet her brother thinks and discusses more deeply, and comes out with amazing insights, yet Logic puzzles are soooo hard for him. And maths is slow. He is really a right brain thinker.

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