Greek vs Latin...(dis)advantages...with no Latin background?

[Joan in GE]

Seeing how much more accepted the Swiss matu is than the high school diploma, I'm thinking ahead for my daughter...

 

She could do the matu with Greek or Latin if she does the language track. She's already doing Eng, French and German. She seems to be good at languages, already speaking German with not much accent. But she doesn't like studying as much as her brother...

 

I don't forsee being able to do both Greek and Latin, but am leaning towards Greek.

 

Is this possible if she has not studied Latin?

 

Are there any advantages of Greek over Latin?

 

I want to start sooner, as in next school year, and will be returning to the US in May, so want to order the books now - thus the question for the hive...

 

Any suggestions about the path (she'll be going into 8th grade next year)?

 

Curriculum suggestions?

 

Thank you!

Joan

[Ester Maria]

Is this possible if she has not studied Latin?

Sure, there is no reason why one would not opt to study only one of the classical languages. There are many materials out there that basically treat it that way too (explaining everything as though you have zero Latin background).

Are there any advantages of Greek over Latin?

Not really, unless you are religious, in the case of which you get the access to NT in original. There are plenty of high quality texts surviving in both, and both are "canonical".

Curriculum suggestions?

Athenaze is probably the most "mainstream" and one of the best options, and I suggest getting the Italian version if you can (she should be able to follow it relying on French with no problems).

[Joan in GE]

Ester Maria - thank you!

 

So if you are telling me a curriculum that she needs to read in Italian, there must not be much out there?

 

Another question - which is harder to translate?

 

Here are the directions for the Swiss maturite (in French). Starting on page 16, you can see the directions for Greek and Latin. She'd have to do the "superior" level. On page 17 it describes the oral exam which is more about Greek or Roman history.

 

Thanks again,

Joan

PS - we're about to leave for 4 days, but I'll get back to you then.

[Ester Maria]

Switzerland :001_wub:

 

So lovely to see normal criteria LOL. She'll be fine. Athenaze is the best option that I know of so far, followed by anthology readings as requested. I only mentioned Italian edition because it's a bit changed ("bettered") from what I know, but I am not that terribly familiar with it. I can get you Greek stuff (from Greece) for Ancient Greek if you want, she might not be able to read the source language, but she can practice stuff and use other stuff from their texts, they're the best. I'm not sure what's out there on the francophone market, but absolutely check it before you check anything from the anglophone market. Does she read German? I cannot promise, but if we're off to Vienna soon, I can check German materials for you, they used to have good ones, but it's been a while since I dealt with them.

Edited April 23, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Ester Maria]

Do you read Greek, the letters I mean? You can preview some of the Greek texts here, if you go to ΓΥΜΝΑΣΙΟ, then to Αρχαία Ελληνική Γλώσσα and then you have Α, Β and Γ τάξη (grades 1-3) and the same for ΛΥΚΕΙΟ (lycee), Αρχαία Ελληνική Γλώσσα και Γραμματεία, though the stuff they have in the lycee section are not as good. But you can sort of skim the gymnasium texts and see how they organize their sequence.

 

But Athenaze, really. A good stepping stone, and then straight to Homer, tragedies and histories and Plato that are on her examination.ΓΥ aΜΝΑΣΙΟ ΓΥΜΝΑΣΙΟ

[Joan in GE]

Ester Maria,

 

Thanks for that! I'm at a hostel right now, but will research more when I get back home.

 

My dh is now thinking dd should do math as her "option specifique" for the matu, saying that people don't have enough math background when they are doing arts and therefore are not careful enough in their studies. We have to talk more about all this I guess.

 

I'll get back to you about books and will look around here too. I guess I was hoping for English books so they would be easier for me to use.

 

Your link helped me remember that we have the alphabet to deal with - I did study a bit of greek myself - but can see that I need a lot of work there...

 

Thanks!

Joan

[Julie in MN]

Hi Joan across the sea :)

I wanted to mention that the Bluedorns of Trivium Pursuit teach their children Greek and might be a good resource to wander around their site. Of course, when one is selling too, there can be conflicting purposes. But since they are passionate about reading the NT in Greek, I think I would trust their suggestions.

 

If you scroll down this page to the section on Greek, you might find some interesting articles for a beginner?

http://www.triviumpursuit.com/articles/index.php

Julie

[Corraleno]

I would also highly recommend Athenaze; Lukeion uses this for their online Greek classes (they use Wheelock's for Latin). DS will be taking the class this fall so I bought the books in order to get a head start over the summer, and I really like them. Here's a description of Athenaze from the Lukeion website:

This is a standard textbook used in college level Greek courses and the best available Greek program for students who want a well rounded Greek education. This text prepares students for reading Classical literature as well as later (koine) Greek of the New Testament. The textbook publishers have provided a rich selection of both Classical authors and New Testament passages in both levels of Greek.

 

This Athenaze series is reading and grammar rich. These texts will give the student all the tools he or she needs to read real Greek and enter second year college Greek reading courses.

You can get the texts, workbooks, and (most importantly) the TMs here. RR is the only place I've seen that sells the TMs.

 

Jackie

[Joan in GE]

Thank you Julie and Jackie! Info about the TM's is very helpful as I wouldn't survive without them... And I'll look into the Bluedorn's site...

 

Joan

[Xander]

Here are the directions for the Swiss maturite (in French). Starting on page 16, you can see the directions for Greek and Latin. She'd have to do the "superior" level.

 

Is it possible for her to do Greek for 3ème langue (at level 2)? All the languages listed for that option are also on the option spécifique, so if her current choice for that is something she'd do at level 3 anyway, maybe they could be swapped over?

 

I wanted to mention that the Bluedorns of Trivium Pursuit teach their children Greek and might be a good resource to wander around their site. Of course, when one is selling too, there can be conflicting purposes. But since they are passionate about reading the NT in Greek, I think I would trust their suggestions.

Julie

 

They're completely geared towards New Testament Greek, which is much simpler than ancient Greek.

If you read page 18 of the document Joan gave the link for, it's clear that it's talking about Attic and Homeric Greek. There's a written exam which involves translating a passage by Xenophon, Plato or Herodotus and answering questions on interpretation, plus an oral exam on 500 lines of Homer (Odyssey and/or Iliad) and 500 lines from one or two plays by Aeschylus, Euripides or Sophocles (or you can swap 300 lines of this for lyric poetry). No course in NT Greek is going to be adequate preparation for that.

 

 

 

JACT's 'Reading Greek' series might be worth a look. They have an independent study guide available to go with it.

[Ester Maria]

They're completely geared towards New Testament Greek, which is much simpler than ancient Greek.

If you read page 18 of the document Joan gave the link for, it's clear that it's talking about Attic and Homeric Greek. There's a written exam which involves translating a passage by Xenophon, Plato or Herodotus and answering questions on interpretation, plus an oral exam on 500 lines of Homer (Odyssey and/or Iliad) and 500 lines from one or two plays by Aeschylus, Euripides or Sophocles (or you can swap 300 lines of this for lyric poetry). No course in NT Greek is going to be adequate preparation for that.

Yes, she should absolutely study Attic. In all classical lycees in Europe Attic is studied, because Koine is so easy that it does not warrant a specific study - once you know Attic, the "switch" to Koine is basically non-existent, you can read NT with great ease. The opposite, however, is not true (Koine to Attic is much harder).

 

That's also one of the big problems on the homeschool market in the US: nearly everything you get is Koine, rather than Attic. Except for Athenaze, which is Attic-based, but mostly geared towards older students anyway.

[In The Great White North]

Here's a thread with a review of both the Italian and American versions of Athenaze.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83103&highlight=Italian+Athenaze

 

So, the RR version may not be what you want.

 

There were also a couple of older threads with Attic Greek textbook suggestions that may be helpful:

 

Thrasymachus: Greek Through Reading by C. Peckett .

 

 

http://www.txclassics.org/greek.htm

 

http://www.cambridgescp.com/page.php?p=ag^top^home

 

http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Greek-Association-Classical-Teachers/dp/0521219760

[Ester Maria]

Yeah, the Italian version flirts dangerously with natural method... (*facepalm*, but there is no equal "danger" involved in Ancient/Modern Greek as there is in Latin/Italian, for a plethora of complicated reasons which I will not get into here again), but from all I heard from other people (I did not compare the two in detail, though I own it... somewhere LOL, who knows where, I had my kids use the English version on and off, as a part of our Greek mishmash), it is still considerably better.

 

They use Athenaze often in Italian classical lycees, often as the main spine for the first two years of studies.

[Joan in GE]

Thank you everyone for this whole discussion! I realize now how uneducated I was about the topic.

 

Thanks to IGWN for all the links to previous threads and info.

 

Is it possible for her to do Greek for 3ème langue (at level 2)? All the languages listed for that option are also on the option spécifique, so if her current choice for that is something she'd do at level 3 anyway, maybe they could be swapped over?

 

No course in NT Greek is going to be adequate preparation for that.

 

JACT's 'Reading Greek' series might be worth a look. They have an independent study guide available to go with it.

 

I will look into her doing it at the normal level. I'm still trying to figure out the whole system and the mix and match stuff... Thank you for the info about the differences in Anc. Greek...

 

exist self-study courses Attic in the Netherlands.

 

....but maybe you have something like that at Swiss Universities?

 

I'll have to look into this too...

 

Thanks!

Joan

[flyingiguana]

There is a Greek study list (similar to the Latin list). They use a number of different texts. Also, they're a great resource if you have questions. You will have to sign up for the mailing list is you want to chat with them:

 

http://www.quasillum.com/greek/greek-activities.php

Here's the link to sign up:

http://nxport.com/mailman/listinfo/greekstudy

 

Was this mentioned?

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148266

Edited April 27, 2011 by flyingiguana

[Joan in GE]

Thanks flyingiguana - I've just signed up for the list, and no, that thread wasn't posted before, so thanks!

 

Joan

[flyingiguana]

This thread is making me think I should just buckle down and do Athenaze this summer. If I make it through that, maybe I won't need to do the Koine course I could do in the fall. I'd rather not do Koine as my first exposure to Greek, but I'm having trouble making myself get motivated to do this on my own.

 

This article on the BBC is somewhat related:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13190376

DNA extracted from 2,000-year-old plants recovered from an Italian shipwreck could offer scientists the key to new medicines.

Carrots, parsley and wild onions were among the samples preserved in clay pills on board the merchant trading vessel that sank around 120 BC. It's believed the plants were used by doctors to treat intestinal disorders among the ship's crew.

Such remedies are described in ancient Greek texts, but this is the first time the medicines themselves have been discovered.

[Julie in MN]

They're completely geared towards New Testament Greek, which is much simpler than ancient Greek.

If you read page 18 of the document Joan gave the link for, it's clear that it's talking about Attic and Homeric Greek. There's a written exam which involves translating a passage by Xenophon, Plato or Herodotus and answering questions on interpretation, plus an oral exam on 500 lines of Homer (Odyssey and/or Iliad) and 500 lines from one or two plays by Aeschylus, Euripides or Sophocles (or you can swap 300 lines of this for lyric poetry). No course in NT Greek is going to be adequate preparation for that.

 

Actually, I'm very interested in this. Personally, I have neither the time nor the inclination to read Homer in Greek, but learning a little "easier" Greek appeals to me. Thanks for the clarification.

[Xander]

Actually, I'm very interested in this. Personally, I have neither the time nor the inclination to read Homer in Greek, but learning a little "easier" Greek appeals to me. Thanks for the clarification.

 

There are plenty of resources for that, including ones aimed specifically at home schoolers and people wanting to study it by themselves. Just make sure you choose something that says "New Testament" or "Koine".

 

The exam that Joan's daughter wants to prepare for is in ancient Greek and the difficulty there is that there are far fewer home school and teach-yourself resources available for that.

[Julie in MN]

There are plenty of resources for that, including ones aimed specifically at home schoolers and people wanting to study it by themselves. Just make sure you choose something that says "New Testament" or "Koine".

 

The exam that Joan's daughter wants to prepare for is in ancient Greek and the difficulty there is that there are far fewer home school and teach-yourself resources available for that.

 

Thanks. I've never looked that deeply into it, always assuming it was too much.

 

As far as Joan's situation, the problem I've always had with non-homeschool language materials is that by level 2, the teacher's resources were always written in the foreign language. Is Joan going to have to learn the language ahead of her dd, in order to use non-homeschool materials?

 

Julie

[Joan in GE]

exist self-study courses Attic in the Netherlands.

 

=Langues+anciennes&buttonForma=Rechercher#menuUser"]EAD in Belgium has a correspondence course for free with two courses

 

Course 1

 

example (looks ancient :))

 

 

Course 2

 

example

 

 

If someone who reads French could compare this to the Athenaze books that would be very helpful, though I think I'm going to order them anyway. But I always like to hear an analysis to get another perspective...

 

Thanks!

Joan

Edited April 28, 2011 by Joan in Geneva
clearer

[Joan in GE]

Is Joan going to have to learn the language ahead of her dd, in order to use non-homeschool materials?

 

Julie I see you are thinking of the teacher too! Sweet of you...:001_smile:

[Joan in GE]

Ooops (thanks though loesje), I see I was quite unclear...

 

I want to order the Athenaze books anyway. But I'm wondering ahead if someone who has the Athenaze books, who knows Greek programs (this is where I'm really lacking), and can read French, can compare the programs to see how the Belgian course stacks up....It does look like quite an old style. I thought it might be worth it to do on the side as it would be corrected by a person who knows what they are doing...

 

Thanks!

Joan

[distancia]

Joan, I am so sorry to hijack this thread, but my questions are not totally off subject. I can understand the fundamental subjects as a basis for the exam of La Matu, but what is the specifique? Does this mean additional time or advanced study in a subject? For example, if your daughter continues in math as a specifique, does that mean she goes above and beyond the "norm" for the students of a same age group? What would be the equivalent in a US school, an AP course?

 

Also, Esther Maria says:

So lovely to see normal criteria LOL.

What is considered the abnormal criteria, in this context?

 

Thank you for helping me understand this. I have a daughter who will be attending college here in the US this fall and I have just enrolled her in an Ancient Greek & Latin language college survey course for the summer. Of course in no way can it compare to what your daughter will be doing, but it is the best we can do, given our time limitations.

Edited April 28, 2011 by distancia

[Joan in GE]

what is the specifique? Does this mean additional time or advanced study in a subject? For example, if your daughter continues in math as a specifique, does that mean she goes above and beyond the "norm" for the students of a same age group? What would be the equivalent in a US school, an AP course?

 

Also, Esther Maria says: What is considered the abnormal criteria, in this context?

 

 

Even though my ds2 did it, there were things I'd forgotten or hadn't really understood. I need to understand it anyway, so writing for you helps me get it clear in my mind. Though this is probably more than you wanted.

 

 

I'm guessing EM was comparing "normal" to "superior" level, normal being what everyone is doing. When ds3 did the "specifique" of PAM, he said he had 8 "hrs" (I think periods) of math per week as a senior. But it is a little hard to compare as their applied math is part of what we would do in physics I think.

 

There is a base that everyone does, then branches depending on interests and capacities. The branches are the "specifique" and the "option complementaire".

 

You have the base of 3 languages, math, experimental sciences, human sciences, one fine art, and the research paper.

 

Then people choose one of the options specifique and one complementaire.

 

They also have to do a certain number of languages at the higher level. (this I'm not quite clear about yet - so maybe in that sense they have to do two "specifique" one being another language?).

 

Format of Matu

 

Premier examen partiel (1P) (11th grade)

- domaine des sciences expérimentales (some bio, chem., physics) (écrit) (I don’t think these are AP level, maybe SAT II level but not even sure)

- domaine des sciences humaines (écrit) (history, geography, economy, law) (probably SAT II level, but not sure)

- arts visuels ou musique (forme spécifique) (only one of those)

 

Deuxième examen partiel (2P) (12th grade)

- langue première (écrit et oral) (definitely AP lit analysis level - they have to be ready to discuss one of 6 books chosen by the prof on the spot - plus write an essay for a few hours)

- deuxième langue nationale (écrit et oral) (for a foreign language, higher than AP level in one sense due to literature analysis and oral exam discussing literature)

- troisième langue (écrit et oral) (also includes oral literature analysis)

- mathématiques (écrit et oral) (this has a bit of calculus but not like full AP)

- option spécifique (écrit et oral) (one of these) (the math and physics would be low AP level - like Physics B or Calc AB)

- option compl̩mentaire (oral exam only) (one of these) (the depth of an AP but not the breadth of the subject eg this extra biology section covers only 3 of 6 topics Рnothing like the AP)

- travail de maturité (oral exam & “travail de maturite” research paper)

 

Matu bilingue – meaning you do the bilingual language at the superior level, plus present the “travail de maturite” in that language, plus history, geography, and another subject (bio comp, or economy/law I think) in that language.

 

If you look at the Table of Contents (table des matieres) p 6 you can see what goes into the above slots…

 

Overall, I think it is the languages that are above and beyond the typical US high school track. It takes time to be that fluent in the other languages. That said, even though people do German, they don't always feel that fluent.

 

 

Then I think the specifique would be at an AP level...

 

Is it possible for her to do Greek for 3ème langue (at level 2)? All the languages listed for that option are also on the option spécifique, so if her current choice for that is something she'd do at level 3 anyway, maybe they could be swapped over?

 

I'm still trying to figure out how to work this out. She has to do French as the first language, and German as the second (since they have to do two of the national languages), then she would do bilingual English to make it easier since she can do part of the exam in English. Then comes the Greek and the higher math. I think I have to call them to see how this can work out.

 

On a final note, going over the comprehension questions for AP English language, they might have to do more of a variety of texts for the AP than they would for the matu. So in that sense, the matu is easier.

 

Joan

[Joan in GE]

in Italy?

 

I see it here:

http://www.vivariumnovum.it/edizioni/index.php/Vedi-tutti-i-prodotti-del-negozio.html

 

I'm finally gettng to follow the links to their very end...

 

Was this mentioned?

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148266

 

That is a VERY useful thread. Thank you!

 

This article on the BBC is somewhat related:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13190376

DNA extracted from 2,000-year-old plants recovered from an Italian shipwreck could offer scientists the key to new medicines.

 

That could make an interesting research project.

 

there are far fewer home school and teach-yourself resources available for that.

 

So I'm wondering if people have used the English TM with the Italian Athenaze?

 

JACT's 'Reading Greek' series might be worth a look. They have an independent study guide available to go with it.

 

That looks like it could be good. Have you used it? And if so, there are several books - which one do you start with?

 

Thanks,

Joan