Reading Latin only question

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

I know some will think this is not acceptable for HS, but it is what we will be doing, so please keep the torches and pitchforks put away. My ds will cover his Latin requirements by learning to just read Latin: not writing in Latin or speaking it. My question is can he do this with just a book and a Latin Dictionary? He will start out with simple books written in Latin and slowly move to more advanced and some classics over two years. Along the way he is to keep a notebook of words and any form they take, also at first he will translate the simple books into his notebook. I know with other languages it is doable, just using a dictionary and a book, but can it be dome with Latin?

 

Note: He will be learning a modern language for 2 years after Latin, so it is not the only language he will have for HS.

Edited April 21, 2011 by Down_the_Rabbit_Hole

[Ester Maria]

My question is can he do this with just a book and a Latin Dictionary? He will start out with simple books written in Latin and slowly move to more advanced and some classics over two years. Along the way he is to keep a notebook of words and any form they take, also at first he will translate the simple books into his notebook. I know with other languages it is doable, just using a dictionary and a book, but can it be dome with Latin?

The method you describe is not really doable with other languages either past the beginner stage, and especially not with such an awfully syntactically complex language as Latin. Tacking classics (except in small excerpts) in the first two years is something that does not occur with a thorough grammatical study, let alone with such methods. At most you will be able to reach the level of reading inauthentic Latin "works" (such as fairy tales translated to Latin, etc.), but forget about Virgil or Cicero, or generally authentic Latin classics, just not doable this way.

 

I know you said you already made up your mind about this, but I assure you it is a very bad idea for such a complex language. Learning to speak or write it is completely unnecessary (in fact, nearly undesirable), but to reach a reading fluency, one needs a good grounding in grammar first. Texts are always used to supplement that grammar studies, but not instead of it - and even if something may be gained from bilingual texts, they need to be extremely literally translated. Going through inauthentic texts is not nearly going to get you to the level of reading Latin classics, even the easiest ones (Sallust and Caesar are usually tackled first) are pretty challenging, not to mention poetry.

[mjbucks1]

Does your ds have any Latin grammar experience? Do you have a Latin backgroud, so you could at least check to see if he is translating the passages correctly? When looking up a verb in a Latin dictionary, only certain forms of the verb are present. So the verbmeaning "warn" would look like this: maneo,manere,mansi,mansum (which means I warn,to warn, I warned, warned). But if the actual word in the text was "manebas" would he be able to figure out this is in the imperfect tense, second person singular, meaning "you were warning"? I think it would be hard because of all the declensions and conjugations in Latin, but some people are MUCH more intuitive than I am :D.

No throwing stones here, but is there a reason why you would not want to use a grammar book? Wheelock's has short chapters and I think it would greatly assist learning Latin. I think it is great to start translating when learning a language (Wheelock's does this from the first chapter). Again, I think it would be difficult to learn Latin with a dictionary and book (more than other languages). Hopefully others will give their opinions as well.

Blessings,

Michelle

[forty-two]

While I have no done this myself, William Harris, who was a classics professor, advocates this very approach, although mostly with an eye toward people who are picking back up Latin/Greek, not those who are complete newbies. It definitely takes a strongly motivated person, so if Latin isn't your dc's idea, that probably completely sinks your chances of success.

 

Anyway, I'd recommend reading most of Harris' articles about learning Latin and Greek - lots of good bits about going with this method - particularly his "Intelligent Person's Guide to the Latin Language" (which was designed as a big picture guide to Latin grammar, with the idea that once you'd read through that and mostly understood it, you could go straight to Latin classics, using the Guide and a dictionary), and this article (pdf) about learning Greek (the second section has the clearest description of his approach of all his articles; the third section has some alternative approaches that, while the specific materials are for Homeric Greek, there are equivalent Latin materials if any of the approaches strike your/your-dc's fancy).

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

No throwing stones here, but is there a reason why you would not want to use a grammar book? Wheelock's has short chapters and I think it would greatly assist learning Latin. I think it is great to start translating when learning a language (Wheelock's does this from the first chapter). Again, I think it would be difficult to learn Latin with a dictionary and book (more than other languages). Hopefully others will give their opinions as well.

Blessings,

Michelle

I am only set on him learning to read Latin. I am not ruling out a grammar program, I am trying to see if it is possible to do it with just a dictionary and a book. I did this with French when I was in Highschool, learned to read the language pretty well with just a dictionary and a book. Knowing absolutely nothing about Latin (yet) I was asking to see if it was possible. I guess the answer is no.

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

While I have no done this myself, William Harris, who was a classics professor, advocates this very approach, although mostly with an eye toward people who are picking back up Latin/Greek, not those who are complete newbies. It definitely takes a strongly motivated person, so if Latin isn't your dc's idea, that probably completely sinks your chances of success.

 

Anyway, I'd recommend reading most of Harris' articles about learning Latin and Greek - lots of good bits about going with this method - particularly his "Intelligent Person's Guide to the Latin Language" (which was designed as a big picture guide to Latin grammar, with the idea that once you'd read through that and mostly understood it, you could go straight to Latin classics, using the Guide and a dictionary), and this article (pdf) about learning Greek (the second section has the clearest description of his approach of all his articles; the third section has some alternative approaches that, while the specific materials are for Homeric Greek, there are equivalent Latin materials if any of the approaches strike your/your-dc's fancy).

Thank you for the links, very helpful.

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

The method you describe is not really doable with other languages either past the beginner stage, and especially not with such an awfully syntactically complex language as Latin. Tacking classics (except in small excerpts) in the first two years is something that does not occur with a thorough grammatical study, let alone with such methods. At most you will be able to reach the level of reading inauthentic Latin "works" (such as fairy tales translated to Latin, etc.), but forget about Virgil or Cicero, or generally authentic Latin classics, just not doable this way.

 

I know you said you already made up your mind about this, but I assure you it is a very bad idea for such a complex language. Learning to speak or write it is completely unnecessary (in fact, nearly undesirable), but to reach a reading fluency, one needs a good grounding in grammar first. Texts are always used to supplement that grammar studies, but not instead of it - and even if something may be gained from bilingual texts, they need to be extremely literally translated. Going through inauthentic texts is not nearly going to get you to the level of reading Latin classics, even the easiest ones (Sallust and Caesar are usually tackled first) are pretty challenging, not to mention poetry.

Thank you for your thoughts, they do give me much to chew over.

[SonshineLearner]

Kinda makes me think of Carry on Mr. Bowditch :)

[KAR120C]

I am only set on him learning to read Latin. I am not ruling out a grammar program, I am trying to see if it is possible to do it with just a dictionary and a book. I did this with French when I was in Highschool, learned to read the language pretty well with just a dictionary and a book. Knowing absolutely nothing about Latin (yet) I was asking to see if it was possible. I guess the answer is no.

There are a ton of declensions and conjugations and whatnot, but I think with a dictionary and a book and a stack of charts, it might at least be an interesting project to try!

[mjbucks1]

I am only set on him learning to read Latin. I am not ruling out a grammar program, I am trying to see if it is possible to do it with just a dictionary and a book.

 

 

Ahh....I see :D. Latin has been challenging for me (but not so for my son!). Maybe it is just my 40 year old brain...:lol:. I know Wheelock's has a reader to use with it. Perhaps that would add more to a program and get your son reading sooner. I do think the more you read, the easier it gets!

[Kareni]

Kinda makes me think of Carry on Mr. Bowditch :)

 

That was my first thought, too. (Great book!)

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

I decided to try it myself. I got a few simple book written in Latin from the library. I am going to see if I can do this without any real confusion. Yes, I know translating a simple childs book is not the same as a classic novel, but it's will give me an idea.

[Kendall]

Have you looked at Lingua Latina? The first one is Familia Romana (I think). It is all in Latin.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Lingua Latina will make you learn Latin through reading. But it includes grammar too. The problem with latin is declensions. Nouns and verbs will change their form depending on what they do in the sentence. Sometimes, the various forms are so far from each other that you will not be able to find it in a dictionnary. What you advocate seems to be a very frustrating endeavour. The verb 'ferre' will become 'tuli' in the perfect. Hmm, hard to find in a dictionary, no?

 

Honestly, just texts and a dictionnary seems to me to be impossible. But you will be able to reach a certain level of fluency through Lingua Latina, which will introduce each concept one by one.

 

http://focusbookstore.com/seti-familiaromana.aspx

I would also get 'College Companion' for help with the more complex concepts. It's like having a teacher at your side.

[RootAnn]

Kinda makes me think of Carry on Mr. Bowditch :)

 

For the OP & others, Bowditch learns Latin (and Spanish and ... ?? French?) by using the Bible (in whichever language he wants to learn), a grammar book, and a dictionary. He knows his Bible in English. He figures out the language this way. He then uses the knowledge he gains to translate Isaac Newton's Principia that is written in Latin. (Here's a page to start you out on this part of the story.) So, it is doable. But, Bowditch was something of a genius, IMO. :)

[wapiti]

I decided to try it myself. I got a few simple book written in Latin from the library. I am going to see if I can do this without any real confusion. Yes, I know translating a simple childs book is not the same as a classic novel, but it's will give me an idea.

 

It would definitely help to pick up a grammar reference book. There are several choices available on Amazon. Unlike French, Latin is highly inflected. This chart might give you some idea of what's involved with noun endings: http://www.lifeisaprayer.com/other_sites/latin/resource_files/noun_endings.html If you google a bit, there are quite a few charts available on line (verb endings, etc.). It isn't cheating ;). Indeed, your task may be next to impossible without such helps.

 

I'm not sure what the downside would be of learning to read Latin with a textbook that teaches the grammar systematically such as Wheelock. IMO, the time and effort spent would be a whole lot more efficient. Alternatively, if an immersion experience is what you're after, there are books that have been designed specifically for such a purpose, mentioned above (Lingua Latina or Cambridge).

 

Good luck with your interesting project!

Edited April 22, 2011 by wapiti

[Ester Maria]

For the OP & others, Bowditch learns Latin (and Spanish and ... ?? French?) by using the Bible (in whichever language he wants to learn), a grammar book, and a dictionary. He knows his Bible in English. He figures out the language this way. He then uses the knowledge he gains to translate Isaac Newton's Principia that is written in Latin. (Here's a page to start you out on this part of the story.) So, it is doable. But, Bowditch was something of a genius, IMO. :)

A word of caution: Vulgata is one of the easiest readings you can get anyway, so reading the Bible in Latin is NOT, by any stretch of imagination, equivalent to reading Cicero or Virgil. Newton belongs to the epoch of neo-Latin which is usually syntactically a lot easier than classical Latin. Additional advantage of tackling the Bible are very literal translations, so there is some sense in comparing passages and thus building passive reading fluency (a lot of people start their foreign language reading with parallel Bibles for those reasons).

 

However, the REAL Latin test is classical antiquity (especially speeches and poetry with marked use of language), not post-classical Latin (such as Newton) or syntactically easy Bible. The problem with that method is the same problem as learning Greek via Koine rather than Attic: the passage from Attic texts to Koine texts is easy peasy, as is the passage from Cicero to Bible, but vice-versa... gooooood luck in that, really. It gets pretty tough. Reading many parts of Cicero without rock solid understanding of syntax is just plain impossible. Reading Virgil without that plus the understanding of metrical principles of the work is not going to happen. Plays and history are maybe a bit easier to read, but the passage from Bible to that is still going to be tough, while vice-versa it will not be.

 

Because of all of that, and especially because of messed up Latin syntax, I recommend doing things the "traditional route", with a textbook, texts and a dictionary, and following a "traditional route" in reading too (after "practice" excerpts while learning grammar, tackling first histories, then speeches, then poetry and drama, and only then neo-Latin and Bible, because by that, you will be able to fly through that without any additional help whatsoever and have a clear "progression" in your mind, so to speak). :001_smile:

[angela in ohio]

Because of all of that, and especially because of messed up Latin syntax, I recommend doing things the "traditional route", with a textbook, texts and a dictionary, and following a "traditional route" in reading too (after "practice" excerpts while learning grammar, tackling first histories, then speeches, then poetry and drama, and only then neo-Latin and Bible, because by that, you will be able to fly through that without any additional help whatsoever and have a clear "progression" in your mind, so to speak). :001_smile:

 

I agree. I think this is a more efficient use of his time.

 

OP, I know you said you aren't familiar with Latin. What you are describing (reading versus writing and speaking) IS the way Latin is taught (so no torches or pitchforks, not that I think people here are like that anyway. ;)) You aren't looking at doing anything terribly different, except that you are planning to leave out a very helpful tool - a textbook which will help the student with the translations (the text will teach grammar concepts and then give translation practice.)

 

My dd is doing a nice combination. She is working through Wheelock's, but she is also practicing extra translation work with the Vulgate and with original documents. Often, she has to put something aside when it is too difficult to translate, but then she will go back to it weeks or months later when she has more skill and be able to translate it.

 

That said, if you do still want to go that route: I think there are some students who could do it and some who couldn't (provided you provide a Latin grammar handbook; I don't think any modern student could do it without that.) My oldest couldn't: she doesn't do well with parts-to-whole type learning. My 13 yo would be fine, though, as she can generalize rules from examples easily.

Edited April 22, 2011 by angela in ohio

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

I decided to try it myself. I got a few simple book written in Latin from the library. I am going to see if I can do this without any real confusion. Yes, I know translating a simple childs book is not the same as a classic novel, but it's will give me an idea.

I admit defeat:blink:

After hours of working with several book and a dictionary I got nowhere. I did find I could translate sentences that were controlled as in they were in a Latin grammar book. However translating sentences in a real book was next to impossible with out any knowledge of Latin.

 

I looked at several Latin Grammar books the library had, Wheelock's Latin Grammar, Latin for Dummies, and Latin Made Simple. Well, the Latin for Dummies is a joke as I figured, but the chapter on Reading Latin gave some good pointers. The Wheelocks is an older version and this might be different with a newer version but I just could not connect with the way it was presented. The Latin Made Simple was the best of the three, not that it is the best out there. The information was given clearly and at a level I needed.

 

After spending hours with this stuff I decided to give my ds an out. I asked him to pick either Latin, French, or Spanish to learn over the next 2 years. He picked Latin. I will still only require he learn to read it but I will definitely give him a grammar text to do this with.

 

Thanks all who responded.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Please, do take a look at Lingua Latina.

[wapiti]

I will still only require he learn to read it but I will definitely give him a grammar text to do this with.

 

By "grammar text," I hope that you intend get him not only the grammar reference book ("Wheelock's Latin Grammar") but also an actual textbook of instruction (e.g., "Wheelock's Latin"). They are separate books. Or, as the PP mentioned, you could go the Lingua Latina route, which certainly is better than no instruction at all. Good luck!! (ETA: FWIW, reading is probably the more common goal with Latin, and that's what Latin curricula are for in the first few years. I'm not sure what it is that you're wanting to avoid when you say only reading; it's not like studying a modern language. I'm having trouble shaking the feeling that there may be a misunderstanding about what is involved).

Edited April 23, 2011 by wapiti

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

By "grammar text," I hope that you intend get him not only the grammar reference book ("Wheelock's Latin Grammar") but also an actual textbook of instruction (e.g., "Wheelock's Latin"). They are separate books. Or, as the PP mentioned, you could go the Lingua Latina route, which certainly is better than no instruction at all. Good luck!! (ETA: FWIW, reading is probably the more common goal with Latin, and that's what Latin curricula are for in the first few years. I'm not sure what it is that you're wanting to avoid when you say only reading; it's not like studying a modern language. I'm having trouble shaking the feeling that there may be a misunderstanding about what is involved).

I am not requiring him to say it orally, only read it and understand what the sentences mean.

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

Please, do take a look at Lingua Latina.

I did look at this and was quite excited. I was able to translate a few sample pages with out any problems. We will definitely be going this route. I had a little trouble with the to be verb at first but using the Latin Made Simple book I was able to figure it out as well as learn the other forms of to be.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I did look at this and was quite excited. I was able to translate a few sample pages with out any problems. We will definitely be going this route. I had a little trouble with the to be verb at first but using the Latin Made Simple book I was able to figure it out as well as learn the other forms of to be.

 

Take the "College Companion" from Lingua Latina. As the grammar gets more complicated, it will be a necessary book. It's like having a teacher at your side explaining what's going on, instead of trying blindly to understand.