Veritas Press History Questions

[abrightmom]

I've been back & forth with VP over the past two years....and now I'm back to considering it for my crew.... I need to ask a few ??s. It's possible I've asked them before but stuff falls out of my brain regularly.

 

1. How do you keep VP from being too "dry"? A frequent complaint is that it is "dry". How do you keep it lively and fun with your crew? Why do folks refer to it as "dry"? **I purchased NT/G&R to use with my 2nd grader and quickly changed my mind this past year. I think that it was because I chose the wrong materials (books too advanced) and I did not like the worksheets.

 

2. How do you decide what books to use? What is your personal "formula" for determining what to purchase and what to find at the library?

 

3. Do you find their literature recommendations to be appropriate for the grades they're listed for? They do code them which is helpful (with a 1,2,3 for difficulty level for that grade).

 

4. If you use VP history and their literature recommendations do you pick lit. titles for your kids at their grade level and then choose your history titles from whatever history period you're studying? I get a little confused here since the VP history is listed by "grade". However, I know you can use it with multiple ages and adjust/adapt as needed. I find it VERY difficult to know what books to choose for what ages though.... what's the trick here?

 

5. Can I jump in anywhere I like with a 3rd grader? For example, can I choose NT/G&R OR MARR if I'd like to? Though the program is designed to teach to multiple ages is there a progression in difficulty or is the layout the same year to year?

 

6. Mapwork with VP...thoughts? I love geography. My kids love maps. We want to do a lot of this.

 

7. Do you use a spine while studying VP or do you use their timeline and just go by "event"?

 

8. Do you add some resource to cover "other cultures/countries" in your studies (i.e. SOTW audios)?

 

9. Do you apply WTM writing to your studies with VP? Any resources that you recommend purchasing for use "over the years"? Anything VP recommends to use with the history studies that you think is not worthwhile?

 

10. How do you store and present your cards to the kids? Contact paper? Lamination? Binders? Do the kids handle them or just "look at them"? Do you post them? Memorize them?

 

11. Do you memorize the timeline? Do you use VP's songs for this?

 

Thanks so much. I know that is a lot to ask...... :001_smile:

[sleeplessnights]

We've just started ourselves, but I'll try to answer some of your questions. My oldest is signed up for the VP self-paced online history class for Old Testament and Ancient Egypt and he is loving it. It makes his history lesson a lot more fun (and independent)! There are five lessons for each card. Each lesson starts with the history card song, so that it is memorized quickly. The first lesson goes over the card and has him answer the worksheet questions online. The next few days review some of the source materials, play games, and have videos and other historical insight about the weekly topic. The fifth lesson is the test. Oh, and there's a talking sphinx that he just loves.

 

There is a mapping component to the history. The teacher's manual includes a 16-page map that you tape together and when you finish each card you get a medallion to place at the appropriate place on the map.

 

One thing that I really like about VP's OTAE course is that the history timeline integrates bible and regular history. You know when along the timeline Joseph was taken into slavery and at what point moses lived. I never really integrated the two before myself.

 

You can use any of the five elementary history classes in grades 2-6. If you go to the self-paced class link, you can get the "historical literature" selections for either Level 1 (grades 2-3) or Level 2 (grades 4-6) for any of the classes.

 

If you go with the self-paced online option, you don't have to buy any of the supplemental materials because it is all included in the video (essentially lowering the relative cost). All you need are the cards and the historical literature for your child's level.

 

As for the cards, we laminated them (for protective purposes) and I let him play around with them, read them, and organize them as much as he wants.

 

Obviously, I think Veritas Press has an awesome elementary history program, but I think that it would be dry, boring, and repetitive without the self-paced option.

 

Hope the helps,

Jill

[Aloha2U]

We've yet to really dig in w/VP, but I've just finished planning (well, mostly finished) our 2nd grade school year with Gen.-Josh./OTAE (we start this fall). We'll be using The Story of the Ancient World as our supplemental narrative spine for Bible, SOTW 1 as our supplemental narrative spine for History, Map Trek for our map work (Wondermaps looks good too, but I'm committed to MT ;)), the HTTA "Record of Time" Timeline notebook and figures for our timeline, and the Old Testament Activity-Pak to make an interesting (and hopefully fun) lapbook. I also found the Thames and Kosmos Classic Science Archaeology: Pyramid (instead of Lift the Lid on the Mummies in the VP catalog) and selected a few other things from the VP catalog that I hope will offer fun learning experiences.

 

Here's a link to my blog post (A rough outline for 2nd Grade) with those details and our schedules (Scroll to the bottom of the post), in the hopes that they may be of some help to you. I still need to work on a spreadsheet to schedule our historical literature, but this recent thread for the ancients looks helpful.

 

BTW, I laminated my cards with these laminating pouches (cards toward the top w/room for rings in the lamination at the bottom) and then used these rings (cards divided into 5 sets/2 rings per set), because we used them in Classical Conversations this year, though you could use these sheet protectors and binder. In CC we memorized the events/titles on the cards in chronological order (a few variations from VP's order) with hand motions. I still have my cards in CCs order that we'll review once a week, but we'll cover the cards more in-depth in VP's order over the course of the year along with VP's songs.

 

HTH!

 

:001_smile: Melissa

[Woodland_Mom]

I've been using VP materials for the last 4 years. Some years we've used VP as the main part of our history curriculum, some years VP has supplemented other things I've chosen. I find that the history cards are an invaluable part of our homeschool and I just can't take them out of the mix entirely! I store my cards in half-size sheet protectors and half size binders. Two 1 1/2 binders holds all 160 cards. We don't use the VP songs because we memorize all 160 cards with Classical Conversations. My kids have all 160 cards memorized. We usually recite them about once a week. When we began we practiced 8 cards a week, adding more cards until we'd made it through all 160 cards. The VP songs can be used very easily each morning. Here's a link about how VP recommends you do their history program: Veritas Press History.

 

I know that there are people who say VP is dry, but I must disagree! Look at the VP cards as a summary of 160 events/people along a historical timeline (all 5 sets, 32 cards each). The back of each card has resources such as encyclopedia, history texts, etc. that you the parent can use to elaborate more on the card. If you don't like the resource, then you don't have to use it. I think the key is to choose resources that are age appropriate for your children. When I've used VP as the core of our homeschool, here's what I did:

 

• Monday: Read back of card, ask kids to retell the information from the card, and read a resource listed on the back.
  
• Tuesday: Read back of card, ask questions from TM orally, read more about the topic using a resource listed on the back of the card. Do mapwork (if any) or pick a project to begin from the TM
  
• Wednesday: Read back of card, this time leaving out key words and have kids shout out answers. (My kids still enjoy doing this.) Wednesday is a great day to do a narration page, or continue a project.
  
• Thursday: Read back of card, read more, do timeline work.
  

Deciding what resources purchase/use is the thing I find the most difficult! I usually head over to the VP website and look at the materials they recommend in their scholars program. They have an online program that it will take you through with recommended resources for youngers and olders. IMO, the VP catalog is a cream of the corp listing of history resources. The small numbers listed after each item description gives you the card number that the resource coordinates with. I like to choose about 8 read Alouds for the year, 3 - 4 history spine/reference books, and I try to use the library for readers.

 

I have one average reader and one reader (my youngest) that I consider advanced. For us the VP recommendations suit my youngest perfectly. Don't let that discourage you!!!! Pick resources that suit your child. The VP catalog does list resources for each history cycle/year that are suitable for older and younger kids.

 

Any year of VP History can be used for kids 2nd grade - 6th grade. I know they list the history by grade, but you can pick the history year you want to study and fold all of your kids into that one year. The TM layout is the same for each history year, but I do think their are more original source readings assigned in Exp. to 1815 and also for 1815 to present. However, even in those TM's, there are plenty of activities and games that you can include in your homeschool. However, if you're looking for assignments/activities that are *mostly* geared for a 2nd or 3rd grader, then you'll want to pull in a resource like history pockets (which VP sells and recommends for those youngers).

 

I don't think VP has enough mapwork. The perfect solution is to use Knowledge Quest Maptrek. They even have a schedule for VP history! Since VP only covers western history, then other parts of the world are "left out". I know that some families just read through CHOW or SOTW during the summer as a read aloud. In fact, VP recommends reading through CHOW every year!

 

I do like the way TWTM recommends studying history: read, narrate, do mapwork, etc. Older kids should do an outline and timeline work. My kids started a timeline at ages younger than TWTM recommend. (We use homeschool in the Woods resources.) They LOVE timeline work, and always have! The VP cards make terrific resources for kids to outline. They also work well with IEW writing materials.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Katrina,

Not at you, but for you and with you....:lol::smilielol5::smilielol5:Poor thing. You need a computer/research hiatus! Or at least you Must feel like you need one!

 

FWIW, I'm adding the VP cards to TOG this year simply for easy memorization tools!

 

Best wishes in your search. I meant to pm you and tell you that if HOD was more all-levels-in-one like TOG, I would use it. I love the incorporation of poetry, memorization, and language arts (although I would still sub in PR!). Happy hunting, Dear!

[mama25angels]

I've been using VP materials for the last 4 years. Some years we've used VP as the main part of our history curriculum, some years VP has supplemented other things I've chosen. I find that the history cards are an invaluable part of our homeschool and I just can't take them out of the mix entirely! I store my cards in half-size sheet protectors and half size binders. Two 1 1/2 binders holds all 160 cards. We don't use the VP songs because we memorize all 160 cards with Classical Conversations. My kids have all 160 cards memorized. We usually recite them about once a week. When we began we practiced 8 cards a week, adding more cards until we'd made it through all 160 cards. The VP songs can be used very easily each morning. Here's a link about how VP recommends you do their history program: Veritas Press History.

 

I know that there are people who say VP is dry, but I must disagree! Look at the VP cards as a summary of 160 events/people along a historical timeline (all 5 sets, 32 cards each). The back of each card has resources such as encyclopedia, history texts, etc. that you the parent can use to elaborate more on the card. If you don't like the resource, then you don't have to use it. I think the key is to choose resources that are age appropriate for your children. When I've used VP as the core of our homeschool, here's what I did:

 

• Monday: Read back of card, ask kids to retell the information from the card, and read a resource listed on the back.

• Tuesday: Read back of card, ask questions from TM orally, read more about the topic using a resource listed on the back of the card. Do mapwork (if any) or pick a project to begin from the TM

• Wednesday: Read back of card, this time leaving out key words and have kids shout out answers. (My kids still enjoy doing this.) Wednesday is a great day to do a narration page, or continue a project.

• Thursday: Read back of card, read more, do timeline work.

Deciding what resources purchase/use is the thing I find the most difficult! I usually head over to the VP website and look at the materials they recommend in their scholars program. They have an online program that it will take you through with recommended resources for youngers and olders. IMO, the VP catalog is a cream of the corp listing of history resources. The small numbers listed after each item description gives you the card number that the resource coordinates with. I like to choose about 8 read Alouds for the year, 3 - 4 history spine/reference books, and I try to use the library for readers.

 

I have one average reader and one reader (my youngest) that I consider advanced. For us the VP recommendations suit my youngest perfectly. Don't let that discourage you!!!! Pick resources that suit your child. The VP catalog does list resources for each history cycle/year that are suitable for older and younger kids.

 

Any year of VP History can be used for kids 2nd grade - 6th grade. I know they list the history by grade, but you can pick the history year you want to study and fold all of your kids into that one year. The TM layout is the same for each history year, but I do think their are more original source readings assigned in Exp. to 1815 and also for 1815 to present. However, even in those TM's, there are plenty of activities and games that you can include in your homeschool. However, if you're looking for assignments/activities that are *mostly* geared for a 2nd or 3rd grader, then you'll want to pull in a resource like history pockets (which VP sells and recommends for those youngers).

 

I don't think VP has enough mapwork. The perfect solution is to use Knowledge Quest Maptrek. They even have a schedule for VP history! Since VP only covers western history, then other parts of the world are "left out". I know that some families just read through CHOW or SOTW during the summer as a read aloud. In fact, VP recommends reading through CHOW every year!

 

I do like the way TWTM recommends studying history: read, narrate, do mapwork, etc. Older kids should do an outline and timeline work. My kids started a timeline at ages younger than TWTM recommend. (We use homeschool in the Woods resources.) They LOVE timeline work, and always have! The VP cards make terrific resources for kids to outline. They also work well with IEW writing materials.

 

:iagree: this is how I plan to use Exp.-1815 next year

[PeterPan]

Do the online self-paced classes and be done with it. Some people just don't want to teach history, don't like history (me), don't bring history alive, don't have time to teach history the way they envision, etc. The self-paced online classes do it for you. Sign the kids up and stop feeling guilty.

[Jami]

Do the online self-paced classes and be done with it. Some people just don't want to teach history, don't like history (me), don't bring history alive, don't have time to teach history the way they envision, etc. The self-paced online classes do it for you. Sign the kids up and stop feeling guilty.

 

But others may not have the budget for that. Or may not want their young children learning primarily through a screen interaction.

 

Not a very helpful answer, Elizabeth.

[ksullivan87]

Wondering the same things. We are still a good ways off(just starting my first year hs dd in K) but all this is very helpful in looking ahead! Can anyone tell me what CHOW is? I could not find it on the abbreviation list. Thanks!

[Bloggermom]

Do the online self-paced classes and be done with it. Some people just don't want to teach history, don't like history (me), don't bring history alive, don't have time to teach history the way they envision, etc. The self-paced online classes do it for you. Sign the kids up and stop feeling guilty.

:iagree:

It is the only way a fun history can be done at our house.

[Jami]

Katrina,

 

I use the VP cards basically as pegs or reminders for things we've learned in our more narrative spines. So as we read through Child's History of the World, listened to Our Island Story or Story of the World, the story of history was unfolding for my kids. Then I would go to the cards as reminders for the key points or people. Sometimes I start with a card, then hand them a couple of chapters or individual books. It helps me (a historian by degree) to not overwhelm them with too much information but to focus on a few famous people and events.

 

For map work, we just look at the maps in our various books, particularly SOTW. I have used Knowledge Quest this past year for some Middle Ages maps. Sometimes I get out the atlas and we look at the current maps of areas we're talking about.

 

This year with Explorers to 1815 we'll be using the Memoria Press 50 States and Capitals materials and being more deliberate about US mapwork.

 

For literature, I look at the period we're going to be studying and start with the well-written classics that also discuss people or events for that period. Ambleside is my first source, then I look at the Veritas list for more historical fiction. So when we did we studied the Middle Ages this past year, I wanted to be sure we read a couple of good biographies about church fathers and Reformers. We read Robin Hood by Pyle, Lamb's Shakespeare, and many tales about various English kings. I don't worry about having a book for each card, or even that each card is used much. The flow of the narrative spines is more important to me.

 

I do use SOTW CDs as a way to hear about what was going on in other parts of the world, reading about Marco Polo helped too this particular year. But my goal is to focus on Western history and culture at this point, so I don't worry too much about it.

 

I do think VP is dry as written. I've looked over the Teacher's Manuals a couple of time and couldn't imagine enjoying them. We don't do worksheets or comprehension questions here. Just talking, narration (oral and written), further reading, and the kids take it and make it their own through play quite a lot.

[abrightmom]

Katrina,

Not at you, but for you and with you....:lol::smilielol5::smilielol5:Poor thing. You need a computer/research hiatus! Or at least you Must feel like you need one!

 

FWIW, I'm adding the VP cards to TOG this year simply for easy memorization tools!

 

Best wishes in your search. I meant to pm you and tell you that if HOD was more all-levels-in-one like TOG, I would use it. I love the incorporation of poetry, memorization, and language arts (although I would still sub in PR!). Happy hunting, Dear!

I know Tina...I know. This is the year of Big Change here.... HOD is great but I'm finding myself RESISTING beginning....I don't like being boxed in and I'm not sure what to do about it..... Still grappling and pondering here. I know what I like/love/don't like about all of the options out there...and I'm trying to figure out what I should DO about it. I wish there was some kind of curriculum choosing machine where I could drop in all of the things I want/like/need and out pops the plan! Wouldn't that be nice....:001_smile:

 

I have enjoyed the reading, researching and discussing. :001_smile: I consider it teacher training....

 

My kids are still whining about PR here. :001_smile:

 

Okay, back to VP discussions....

[abrightmom]

We've just started ourselves, but I'll try to answer some of your questions. My oldest is signed up for the VP self-paced online history class for Old Testament and Ancient Egypt and he is loving it. It makes his history lesson a lot more fun (and independent)! There are five lessons for each card. Each lesson starts with the history card song, so that it is memorized quickly. The first lesson goes over the card and has him answer the worksheet questions online. The next few days review some of the source materials, play games, and have videos and other historical insight about the weekly topic. The fifth lesson is the test. Oh, and there's a talking sphinx that he just loves.

 

There is a mapping component to the history. The teacher's manual includes a 16-page map that you tape together and when you finish each card you get a medallion to place at the appropriate place on the map.

 

One thing that I really like about VP's OTAE course is that the history timeline integrates bible and regular history. You know when along the timeline Joseph was taken into slavery and at what point moses lived. I never really integrated the two before myself.

 

You can use any of the five elementary history classes in grades 2-6. If you go to the self-paced class link, you can get the "historical literature" selections for either Level 1 (grades 2-3) or Level 2 (grades 4-6) for any of the classes.

 

If you go with the self-paced online option, you don't have to buy any of the supplemental materials because it is all included in the video (essentially lowering the relative cost). All you need are the cards and the historical literature for your child's level.

 

As for the cards, we laminated them (for protective purposes) and I let him play around with them, read them, and organize them as much as he wants.

 

Obviously, I think Veritas Press has an awesome elementary history program, but I think that it would be dry, boring, and repetitive without the self-paced option.

 

Hope the helps,

Jill

 

Do the online self-paced classes and be done with it. Some people just don't want to teach history, don't like history (me), don't bring history alive, don't have time to teach history the way they envision, etc. The self-paced online classes do it for you. Sign the kids up and stop feeling guilty.

 

We love the self paced classes! My oldest had rollicking good time with the one month sample....but in a short two years I'd have three kiddos needing to enroll. That's half my budget for school here and I'm not sure it's a good plan for the long term....:001_smile:

[abrightmom]

We've yet to really dig in w/VP, but I've just finished planning (well, mostly finished) our 2nd grade school year with Gen.-Josh./OTAE (we start this fall). We'll be using The Story of the Ancient World as our supplemental narrative spine for Bible, SOTW 1 as our supplemental narrative spine for History, Map Trek for our map work (Wondermaps looks good too, but I'm committed to MT ;)), the HTTA "Record of Time" Timeline notebook and figures for our timeline, and the Old Testament Activity-Pak to make an interesting (and hopefully fun) lapbook. I also found the Thames and Kosmos Classic Science Archaeology: Pyramid (instead of Lift the Lid on the Mummies in the VP catalog) and selected a few other things from the VP catalog that I hope will offer fun learning experiences.

 

Here's a link to my blog post (A rough outline for 2nd Grade) with those details and our schedules (Scroll to the bottom of the post), in the hopes that they may be of some help to you. I still need to work on a spreadsheet to schedule our historical literature, but this recent thread for the ancients looks helpful.

 

BTW, I laminated my cards with these laminating pouches (cards toward the top w/room for rings in the lamination at the bottom) and then used these rings (cards divided into 5 sets/2 rings per set), because we used them in Classical Conversations this year, though you could use these sheet protectors and binder. In CC we memorized the events/titles on the cards in chronological order (a few variations from VP's order) with hand motions. I still have my cards in CCs order that we'll review once a week, but we'll cover the cards more in-depth in VP's order over the course of the year along with VP's songs.

 

HTH!

 

:001_smile: Melissa

 

Good work Mama!! Thanks for sharing your links and ideas here.....

[abrightmom]

I've been using VP materials for the last 4 years. Some years we've used VP as the main part of our history curriculum, some years VP has supplemented other things I've chosen. I find that the history cards are an invaluable part of our homeschool and I just can't take them out of the mix entirely! I store my cards in half-size sheet protectors and half size binders. Two 1 1/2 binders holds all 160 cards. We don't use the VP songs because we memorize all 160 cards with Classical Conversations. My kids have all 160 cards memorized. We usually recite them about once a week. When we began we practiced 8 cards a week, adding more cards until we'd made it through all 160 cards. The VP songs can be used very easily each morning. Here's a link about how VP recommends you do their history program: Veritas Press History.

 

I know that there are people who say VP is dry, but I must disagree! Look at the VP cards as a summary of 160 events/people along a historical timeline (all 5 sets, 32 cards each). The back of each card has resources such as encyclopedia, history texts, etc. that you the parent can use to elaborate more on the card. If you don't like the resource, then you don't have to use it. I think the key is to choose resources that are age appropriate for your children. When I've used VP as the core of our homeschool, here's what I did:

 

• Monday: Read back of card, ask kids to retell the information from the card, and read a resource listed on the back.

• Tuesday: Read back of card, ask questions from TM orally, read more about the topic using a resource listed on the back of the card. Do mapwork (if any) or pick a project to begin from the TM

• Wednesday: Read back of card, this time leaving out key words and have kids shout out answers. (My kids still enjoy doing this.) Wednesday is a great day to do a narration page, or continue a project.

• Thursday: Read back of card, read more, do timeline work.

Deciding what resources purchase/use is the thing I find the most difficult! I usually head over to the VP website and look at the materials they recommend in their scholars program. They have an online program that it will take you through with recommended resources for youngers and olders. IMO, the VP catalog is a cream of the corp listing of history resources. The small numbers listed after each item description gives you the card number that the resource coordinates with. I like to choose about 8 read Alouds for the year, 3 - 4 history spine/reference books, and I try to use the library for readers.

 

I have one average reader and one reader (my youngest) that I consider advanced. For us the VP recommendations suit my youngest perfectly. Don't let that discourage you!!!! Pick resources that suit your child. The VP catalog does list resources for each history cycle/year that are suitable for older and younger kids.

 

Any year of VP History can be used for kids 2nd grade - 6th grade. I know they list the history by grade, but you can pick the history year you want to study and fold all of your kids into that one year. The TM layout is the same for each history year, but I do think their are more original source readings assigned in Exp. to 1815 and also for 1815 to present. However, even in those TM's, there are plenty of activities and games that you can include in your homeschool. However, if you're looking for assignments/activities that are *mostly* geared for a 2nd or 3rd grader, then you'll want to pull in a resource like history pockets (which VP sells and recommends for those youngers).

 

I don't think VP has enough mapwork. The perfect solution is to use Knowledge Quest Maptrek. They even have a schedule for VP history! Since VP only covers western history, then other parts of the world are "left out". I know that some families just read through CHOW or SOTW during the summer as a read aloud. In fact, VP recommends reading through CHOW every year!

 

I do like the way TWTM recommends studying history: read, narrate, do mapwork, etc. Older kids should do an outline and timeline work. My kids started a timeline at ages younger than TWTM recommend. (We use homeschool in the Woods resources.) They LOVE timeline work, and always have! The VP cards make terrific resources for kids to outline. They also work well with IEW writing materials.

 

Angela,

 

Thanks for sharing a good report here! I appreciate what you've shared.... Can you compare VP and MFW? I like MFW but I really think I don't want all subjects planned for me....I'd like more control over what we study when in Bible, science, etc. And I am longing for the freedom to be more choosy with history spines, read alouds, etc. But that's a lot of planning for a Mom (so it seems) and I back away...

 

Would love to hear your comparisons...:001_smile:

[Amy in KS]

I don't remember exactly how much, but I remember a pretty significant discount for siblings with the self paced courses. We love the self-paced course here!

[abrightmom]

Katrina,

 

I use the VP cards basically as pegs or reminders for things we've learned in our more narrative spines. So as we read through Child's History of the World, listened to Our Island Story or Story of the World, the story of history was unfolding for my kids. Then I would go to the cards as reminders for the key points or people. Sometimes I start with a card, then hand them a couple of chapters or individual books. It helps me (a historian by degree) to not overwhelm them with too much information but to focus on a few famous people and events.

 

For map work, we just look at the maps in our various books, particularly SOTW. I have used Knowledge Quest this past year for some Middle Ages maps. Sometimes I get out the atlas and we look at the current maps of areas we're talking about.

 

This year with Explorers to 1815 we'll be using the Memoria Press 50 States and Capitals materials and being more deliberate about US mapwork.

 

For literature, I look at the period we're going to be studying and start with the well-written classics that also discuss people or events for that period. Ambleside is my first source, then I look at the Veritas list for more historical fiction. So when we did we studied the Middle Ages this past year, I wanted to be sure we read a couple of good biographies about church fathers and Reformers. We read Robin Hood by Pyle, Lamb's Shakespeare, and many tales about various English kings. I don't worry about having a book for each card, or even that each card is used much. The flow of the narrative spines is more important to me.

 

I do use SOTW CDs as a way to hear about what was going on in other parts of the world, reading about Marco Polo helped too this particular year. But my goal is to focus on Western history and culture at this point, so I don't worry too much about it.

 

I do think VP is dry as written. I've looked over the Teacher's Manuals a couple of time and couldn't imagine enjoying them. We don't do worksheets or comprehension questions here. Just talking, narration (oral and written), further reading, and the kids take it and make it their own through play quite a lot.

 

Jami,

 

The way you are using VP is probably inching closer to what I want to do. I need some sort of list of what to study with the freedom to choose spines, resources, etc. I really like and want a narrative spine which could be why I flopped in planning VP before. I didn't know what to do with the cards or how to begin studying history without a narrative.

 

How do I figure out what narratives to use when and whether or not they're appropriate for the ages of my children? I am interested in using Guerber histories (I'd like to read one in its entirety as I've only previewed samples). CHOW has been a hit here but I couldn't imagine using it every year for our history spine. I want to read biographies, use some Usborne books (my kids enjoy these so much), read about church history as it fits in (this I know nothing about other than the time of the Reformation), etc. It's also important for me to use the Bible as the history text it is. I need help pulling that together though.... knowing what to read and when .... meshing Biblical history with everything else.

 

I also desire to use notebooking with history. My children have LOVED using notebooking up to this point... they love looking back through their notebooking pages, maps, etc. and recalling what they have learned. That has been a draw for me with boxed curriculum...Bible meshed with other history spines and correlating maps/notebooking pages. I don't want to have to use a boxed curriculum to get that.... but I may end up doing so. Lapbooks don't fit us but notebooking does!

 

Any tips on knowing how to choose age/level appropriate books from VP's recommendations? I am going to peek at VP's site again and see if there are any helps there. I remember there being a worksheet or something that gave some specifics. I'll hunt for it later today....

:001_smile:

[meet me in paris]

You've gotten some really good, thorough answers here, but I thought I'd add my 2 cents. We have used many VP products in the past, but this is the first year I've used their history; I'm using it for my 3rd grader (NT, G&R). We're coming from Sonlight, so I was used to having a nice grid for the week to see at a glance what to do each day. The VP Teacher's Manual threw me off a bit. I ended up buying the weekly schedules from Easy Classical and it SAVED me! http://www.easyclassical.com/NTGR_Curriclum.html

 

It's very clear what items are needed, they break down a read-aloud into daily chunks, and mapping is included. They schedule SOTW along with it - we don't like that, so I substitute CHOW (which my daughter likes much better) and CHOW has page listings on the back of the timeline cards, so it's an easy swap. I think using either SOTW or CHOW makes it much more accessible to younger students since the spines scheduled from VP are pretty advanced (in my opinion, anyway).

 

We may do the online history next year for middle ages, but that's just because my older daughter does some online school so my younger one is asking for school on the computer. ;)

 

All in all, it's been a great year for history for her and I'm planning on going all the way through their rotation w/her (if you do NTG&R for 3rd grade, you'll finish in 6th - perfect for moving into logic stage studies or continuing on to Omnibus w/VP).

[Woodland_Mom]

Katrina,

 

I use the VP cards basically as pegs or reminders for things we've learned in our more narrative spines. So as we read through Child's History of the World, listened to Our Island Story or Story of the World, the story of history was unfolding for my kids. Then I would go to the cards as reminders for the key points or people. Sometimes I start with a card, then hand them a couple of chapters or individual books. It helps me (a historian by degree) to not overwhelm them with too much information but to focus on a few famous people and events.

 

We've done this, too! Right now, we're using MFW Explorers to 1850. Anytime we come across something that VP covers, we pull out the history card. I tend to use these topics as our weekly focal points, which helps my kids to remember the things we study.

[Heather in VA]

The self-paced courses are phenomenal. I would definitely consider those. Remember that when you end up with 3 kids taking them, you basically get one kid for free - and they don't have to all be enrolled in the same course. You get a $250 discount for 3 kids enrolled.

 

Heather

[agst1967]

Here is something I did when planning next year...not sure if it will help, but thought I would throw it out there...

 

I went to the scripted lesson plans on the VP sight and plugged in the kids ages and it gives you all the recommended reading for those ages within the history section for each grade.

 

Because you get everything included with the scripted lesson plans, it lists all the books you will receive. I have decided not to use the scripted lesson plans, but it definitely helped in figuring out the books to include with my history next year.

 

I also decided to buy the plans from easy classical. It incorporated the VP that I was looking to use, but also other interesting items!

 

Alicia

[PeterPan]

We love the self paced classes! My oldest had rollicking good time with the one month sample....but in a short two years I'd have three kiddos needing to enroll. That's half my budget for school here and I'm not sure it's a good plan for the long term....:001_smile:

 

That's the part that's rough. They do some price breaks. It's a shame they can't work something out for people in that position, say if you do *1* class but put all three kids in it. When you think about it though, it would be a very short time.

 

I think sometimes we struggle because we have over-expectations of what we're needing to accomplish. I went for years thinking I needed to "teach" history and feeling like I clearly wasn't doing it. While it would have been fine (if I had those kinds of skills, like some here do), I think it would have been perfectly adequate to do a less fancy version. The farther I get into this adventure, the more I look back and see I was trying overhard. A read-aloud looks really good these days. Somehow my dd knows a lot of history, despite me being a very poor teacher at it. I think it's good to keep them in books. I think it's nice to teach them if you can. But having done VP a lot of ways (with the worksheets, without the worksheets, very diligently, more unschooling and throwing it at them, as a framework, online self-paced), I have to say I think it's all good. I wouldn't guilt-trip yourself too much. If teaching history isn't your thing, put your energy into what is. And if you need more structure to make it happen (honestly I didn't read every single word of your op, sorry), then go get TOG. TOG has all the structure VP lacks. If that's what you need, go get it.

 

What I don't like about the online class is the way it disconnects me from the process. Probably someone else is better at handling it. I'm just saying that's the way it happens in our house. I think if I had that going on with *3* kids at once and *wanted* to be involved in all those discussions and book readings, that would be kind of hairy.

 

I'll go back and reread your op and see if anything more helpful comes to mind. It does strike me that by the time you get several kids doing things at once you'll also have a dc ready for Omnibus. Guess that could be better or worse, lol. Are you planning to do Omnibus? Are you wanting to keep all your kids tracked separately, or do you want to combine them? Do you want to split the difference and hit Omnibus in a particular year?

[PeterPan]

Don't forget we have the VP_Elementary yahoo group where you can call on 600+ other users to help you. :)

 

1. How do you keep VP from being too "dry"?

 

The VP books do tend to be dry. I have most of the TQ guides and use them extensively for book lists to go with the VP cards. She loves older historical fiction, so that's what I get her. Now she's *starting* to enjoy non-fiction. I think it's just personality. Some kids really love non-fiction. It's not a hill to die on at this age. There are lots of ways to cover the content. The point of the reading is to dive in and WADE and enjoy it. I also throw lots of materials at her at lots of levels and see what sticks. Sometimes they surprise you and like a book that is harder, etc. because it's quirky or interesting. For instance my dd latched onto this book "His Majesty, Queen Hatshepsut" and read it over and over and over... It was a TQ book I think.

 

On the worksheets, I'm iffy and between. I think they're valuable, but done wrong they can really suck the joy out of things. With that many kids, I'd take the content of them and just do as fun oral drill daily during your memory work time. Make it fun and competitive, kwim? A little bit of work each day will go a long way, and you have the gang dynamic to take advantage of, something I didn't have with my dd as an only for so long.

 

2. How do you decide what books to use? What is your personal "formula" for determining what to purchase and what to find at the library?

 

In the past, I have bought everything. This year I'm using the library more, mainly because the mistakes get too expensive. Sounds like you're headed for the library. Take advantage of your library's ILL system. I've gotten 100+ books that way in the past few months. It takes a while, but you get to keep them a while too. Just buy the ones they love and want to reread. The goal is to buy books they want to reread. With the age of your oldest, a Kindle would be a good investment, say in the next year. He's going to be coming into reading a lot of classics that are available for free on Kindle. I just downloaded the Kindle software to use on my computer, and I'm hoping to buy dd a Kindle whenever a new crop comes out (hoping for a bigger screen and whatever updates they make).

 

3. Do you find their literature recommendations to be appropriate for the grades they're listed for?

 

We have always done VP recs a grade ahead, so I'm no help there. Kids just vary. Some will be a year behind VP's recs, some right on, and some ahead. Just watch your kids. And remember interest will drive a lot of this. When they find something they really want to read, they're more likely to stretch to read it.

 

4. I find it VERY difficult to know what books to choose for what ages though.... what's the trick here?

 

Well this is what I was asking you, whether you want to teach them TOGETHER or separately. If *you* are teaching, it's going to make more sense to combine. With my dd, who would read across the board, I would get books from all the levels (-, regular, and + in the history section). If you're doing the lit guides, just move forward at their level. So for history we'd read and discuss the card, possibly do the worksheet, then I'd hand her a stack of books and walk away. In your case you're gonna have a laundry basket of books at different levels that you have pulled from the library, and you're going to toss them at the kids. SOMETHING will stick. You just need to explore enough to get that variety (picture books, light fiction, comics, etc.) till you find things that stick.

 

5. Can I jump in anywhere I like with a 3rd grader?

 

If you're asking what to do next, I'd start thinking as part of a coordinated plan. I wouldn't bother with MARR with a 3rd grader and all those littles, not when you're already struggling. MARR, for the non-history person, is sort of the most obtuse and hard to connect with. Granted it was the year I got pregnant, but I TOTALLY flopped at it. You notice we're going back this year and doing the online class, lol.

 

6. Mapwork with VP...thoughts?

 

There's supposed to be a map in the back of the cd/tm and tokens to apply as you cover stuff. I never got it printed. Yes, I'm a pathetic history teacher. But actual mapping in the lessons, yes this is fun and easy to make happen. Read about it, pull out a map and discuss. We have then and now Bible maps (I think VP sells these?), KQ map cds, etc. that we print and laminate to use and re-use. I wish they had more built-in for the people who really want to be gung-ho and want more. Remember if you want VP on steroids, you want TOG. I'm not trying to sell for Tina, hehe.

 

7. Do you use a spine while studying VP or do you use their timeline and just go by "event"?

You can go either way. Do whatever is calling to you. A spine makes life EASY, and is what I was talking about in my other post. More and more I look back and wish I had worried less and picked up the book and just read to her more. I did, but I see it now, I see where it could have been that simple. See there's a huge jump in thought process as they age. Now that she's in 6th I see her asking the questions I THOUGHT I was supposed to be discussing with her in 1st and 2nd. That's what I meant by not worrying about "teaching" history too soon. The stuff I thought I was supposed to be "teaching" was actually 6th grade thought process, not 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th. Your kids may differ. I'm just saying don't guilt-trip yourself unnecessarily.

 

8. Do you add some resource to cover "other cultures/countries" in your studies (i.e. SOTW audios)?

We did some geography (GtG) before starting the VP sequence. With my ds I plan to do that again, doing a year of geography, a year of american, and a year of world history, probably starting into ancients again with the VP sequence in 3rd. I really like the things I see clicking in her brain in 6th, and I'm wishing we had been starting american history this year (rather than mid-stream) to take advantage of it. Yes that diverges and doesn't make you hit Omnibus in 7th. I'm just trying to show you hindsite to free you to give yourself permission to do what YOU want in the sequence YOU want. Make sense?

 

Oh, for the other cultures, you need to chart out all your weeks and then just leave some extra to cover the extras. Yes you could do SOTW audio. Some people do the VP cards in the main school year and do the other stuff over the summer. Some do a separate geography. Do as you wish.

 

9. Do you apply WTM writing to your studies with VP? Anything VP recommends to use with the history studies that you think is not worthwhile?

 

Absolutely we use WTM writing recs with VP!!! Do it. Just look in WTM, see what amounts and types of things they're supposed to be writing, and do it with the materials you're using for VP history and lit. Definitely. Bad stuff from VP??? LOL Um, I think the main issue would be if it's a poor fit by personality. Most of what they sell is exceptionally good or well-chosen. You could go bankrupt wanting it all. Start with a little and work up. Consider homemade. For instance on timelines you can use google image and make your own to stick on a homemade timeline. (paste the image into your Word processor, type your label, print) For use over the years? Not us. History encyclopedias are a flop here. Maybe yours will like them.

 

BTW, I love CHOW (or MOH) with the ages you have. I would seriously consider it. You could do some surveys for a year or two, get everyone to a level where they're ready to go in-depth, then put your energy into teaching them ALL at that depth. There are lots of ways to approach it, but it's just one more option.

 

10. How do you store and present your cards to the kids? Contact paper? Lamination? Binders? Do the kids handle them or just "look at them"? Do you post them? Memorize them?

You can laminate the cards. Mine are, and I'm very happy with them that way. I hole-punched them at the top, and it's awkward. Others do it at the side in a notebook or at the bottom, much easier for flipping with the song. Yes, you want to play games with them. With your large group, it should be fun and competitive, part of your memory work time each day. (If you aren't doing that yet, well it's something to consider.)

 

The online thing has been fabulous for us with learning the cards. I wish and never did get an ipod to organize all the memory songs and make it easy. Instead we flip from cd to cd, cumbersome and taking too much time, the main reason we gave up.

 

11. Do you memorize the timeline? Do you use VP's songs for this?

The world will not end if you do not sing the songs daily and memorize it. It's nice if you do. It's nicer if you get SOMETHING done and your kids come out enjoying it. If this is a sticking point for you, come back to it later. It's ok to do some things imperfectly. My kid LOVES history, and that is what matters to me.

 

Thanks so much. I know that is a lot to ask...... :001_smile:

 

Zowee this got long! Well maybe it was helpful. I admit I'm at the loose end of how I implement things. I'm not a history person at all. But my dd has learned quite a bit and enjoys it. The key thing is to take what you need of VP and ditch the rest. If it's not giving you all the tools you need, move to TOG. I really don't mean to confuse you. Be honest about what you need, and you'll figure it out.

[PeterPan]

On combining with WTM methods, what I usually do is spec a certain number of types of writings (narrations). So the checklist will say something like 1 history narration, 1 lit narration, etc., and they're do at the specified time. I'm blurring together too many ages here, but you get the idea. It doesn't have to be all prim and proper. They just pull from the basket till they find something they like, read, and then do a written narration. It's pretty easy to make happen.

[abrightmom]

OhE,

 

Thank-you. I'll answer a couple ?s and throw out a few comments and ask if you'd comment back...

 

Omnibus is a big maybe....it still scares me. I'd like to get one level and use it myself. If I had to choose Omni or TOG I'd choose Omni though. I've gone around and around with TOG and used the generous samples....still not fitting for me and the reasons are manifold. Wonderful, wonderful program but just not fitting. I'd rather buy books at this point. MFW High School appeals to me....

 

Here's what I like and what I'd like to do:

 

SL Core 2 (now it's C) to finish our survey. We did Core 1, then MFW Adventures, and Core 2 looks good. It's an easy fit with my 3 right now and CHOW is a hit here. My kiddos and I adore Sonlight so far though I imagine we'll hit a point where it's no longer a great fit. For now, it's reading which we all love. Sometimes I just want to use SL :001_smile: ... but it feels wrong somehow (like it's not enough and then I can't really multi-teach with it I guess.....). I also don't know how to apply WTM to SL...

 

I'd intended to use Heart of Dakota .... it gives me this lovely Charlotte Mason approach with enough of the classical elements (i.e. using R&S grammar, lots of writing instruction, etc.). But, I can't combine my oldest 3 and I really want to. I hate this. I have to separate them into two learning groups with different Bible, science, & history in order to use HOD. The program is deep & rich (just what I want) with a great guide but separating.....ugh. I just can't start even though I have the books... In two years my oldest will be 10 and he'd have to separate from his family in order to complete much of his work. DH and I can't imagine that....even though HOD is a great fit philosophy wise, resource wise, etc. The viewpoints really mesh with ours and the plans are lovely....I'm pondering how I could use it and tweak it but that's not in my nature. Tweaking is tough for me...

 

MOH is of high interest to me as I'd like to give my oldest a strong four year survey with a year of countries/cultures (a la SL Core 5 or something). That's been a family priority for awhile and I'd like to hold on to that. I'm looking hard at MOH right now. It's still a bit too meaty for my guys. Again, I don't know if I can really multi-teach with it so I have some more learning to do with that issue. I am also highly interested in Guerber histories.... those look so lovely.

 

TQ guides are highly appealing and I may buy one.:001_smile:

 

We want lots of notebooking (not lapbooks) and geography. We like narrative spines.

 

I want to teach history because I love it. I want to discuss, learn, etc. So, the on-line class would be a poor fit once my middlers are ready for it. I'd miss studying with them....

 

More than anything I want the Bible to tie in where appropriate; I want to use history as a vehicle for teaching worldview to my kiddos. That happens pretty gently for awhile but becomes more important in logic stage....

 

I honestly never thought it would be so complicated....sheesh. I even rolled my eyes at folks who struggled so....well, I'm pretty humbled now. I get the struggle. Having several children definitely complicates the planning ...and then each of these kiddos is just so different.

 

OhE, bless you for thinking with me. You're so good at it. I constantly read those threads on the logic forum and I learn so much. I have this idea about how I want my homeschool to run....I even had it all down on paper but I can't figure out how to flesh it out in a workable, doable way with balance. Jami, who responded to my VP questions, seems to be doing a whiz bang job of teaching her kiddos the way I want to....prepping for GB, using WTM, using AO/CM methods, using VP in her way, etc. I lack so much in my own education and experience. I'm nearly 40....and I feel dumber than ever before!!!!!

Edited April 18, 2011 by abrightmom

[johnandtinagilbert]

I know Tina...I know. This is the year of Big Change here.... HOD is great but I'm finding myself RESISTING beginning....I don't like being boxed in and I'm not sure what to do about it..... Still grappling and pondering here. I know what I like/love/don't like about all of the options out there...and I'm trying to figure out what I should DO about it. I wish there was some kind of curriculum choosing machine where I could drop in all of the things I want/like/need and out pops the plan! Wouldn't that be nice....:001_smile:

 

I have enjoyed the reading, researching and discussing. :001_smile: I consider it teacher training....

 

My kids are still whining about PR here. :001_smile:

 

Okay, back to VP discussions....

:lol: I feel kinda "proud" of you for thinking about taking charge of all the planning and stepping outside of the box :) HAPPY home school friend over here!

 

And if I had the $$$ I might so put a high schooler I have in the VP classes...and The Potters School!

[abrightmom]

:lol: I feel kinda "proud" of you for thinking about taking charge of all the planning and stepping outside of the box :) HAPPY home school friend over here!

 

And if I had the $$$ I might so put a high schooler I have in the VP classes...and The Potters School!

 

Thank-you. It is going to be my undoing and the destruction of my children if I don't figure it out soon...... :001_smile:

 

The ideas are manifold.... why oh why can't I just use HOD and be happy about it? It's the "box".... I always wanted the safety of the "box" yet I fight the "box". So, now, I'm facing the reality that I want out of the "box"....but I'm still scared. I am at the point of standing up in the box and peering around at the world outside. But, I'm not willing to step OUT of the box just yet.....

 

This morning my middler son whispers to me (it's 6:30am. mind you and nobody else is up)....."Mama, when am I going to get to do the Phonics Road?":001_smile:

[johnandtinagilbert]

Thank-you. It is going to be my undoing and the destruction of my children if I don't figure it out soon...... :001_smile:

 

The ideas are manifold.... why oh why can't I just use HOD and be happy about it? It's the "box".... I always wanted the safety of the "box" yet I fight the "box". So, now, I'm facing the reality that I want out of the "box"....but I'm still scared. I am at the point of standing up in the box and peering around at the world outside. But, I'm not willing to step OUT of the box just yet.....

 

This morning my middler son whispers to me (it's 6:30am. mind you and nobody else is up)....."Mama, when am I going to get to do the Phonics Road?":001_smile:

heee heee heeee heeee! Man, your kids are sure smart!

 

I dare say....use HOD! By the time the eldest is in 5th grade, you may decide you want him a little more solo, just to keep him interested, than you think you do now. My 5th grader does some history, some science, all bible and read aloud with the Little League. By some, I mean very little. We are generally on the same topic, though. It does matter, but she does work on her own, so we lose the constancy of always being together. Either way, it works and we haven't lost all unity. This is why being on the same topics is great, but wise to note the variance in ability does demand some level of separation. How much of that is true for you, now.

 

I suggest, choose for THIS year and let tomorrow come along when it gets here....enough to think about Today! I will also say, you love SWB, so using VP in a very WTM way may suit your needs (whispering...you can do the same thing in TOG...and I laughed each time OhE mentioned it! I know it's out of the running for you).

Your happy life from my totally guessing eyes:

PR as appropriate

Apologia science (you'll be tempted towards ES, too, but Apologia is more CM) + narration, drawing and nature study...just as laid out in Apologia) 4 days a week

VP + WTM using WTM recs and VP memorization and reading suggestions 3 days a week (1. Hist. + vocab; 2. Geo + lit; 3. activity) OR MFW

Day 5 - no science or history, so focus on art/composers/poetry/finish activities

Math --- whichever you choose

Bible (from the bible or pick a program; what does your church use?)

Your narration, dictation and copywork will be in PR, science and history. Since you're in charge of All that, just keep a balanced list of each skill (easily plugged into PR) and you're set. VP takes care of memorization.

Read and memorize poetry from one source (A Child's Garden of Verses) each week and you're good.

Not so hard.

[abrightmom]

[/b]

heee heee heeee heeee! Man, your kids are sure smart!

 

I dare say....use HOD! By the time the eldest is in 5th grade, you may decide you want him a little more solo, just to keep him interested, than you think you do now. My 5th grader does some history, some science, all bible and read aloud with the Little League. By some, I mean very little. We are generally on the same topic, though. It does matter, but she does work on her own, so we lose the constancy of always being together. Either way, it works and we haven't lost all unity. This is why being on the same topics is great, but wise to note the variance in ability does demand some level of separation. How much of that is true for you, now.

 

I suggest, choose for THIS year and let tomorrow come along when it gets here....enough to think about Today! I will also say, you love SWB, so using VP in a very WTM way may suit your needs (whispering...you can do the same thing in TOG...and I laughed each time OhE mentioned it! I know it's out of the running for you).

 

Your happy life from my totally guessing eyes:

PR as appropriate

 

Apologia science (you'll be tempted towards ES, too, but Apologia is more CM) + narration, drawing and nature study...just as laid out in Apologia) 4 days a week

 

VP + WTM using WTM recs and VP memorization and reading suggestions 3 days a week (1. Hist. + vocab; 2. Geo + lit; 3. activity) OR MFW

 

Day 5 - no science or history, so focus on art/composers/poetry/finish activities

 

Math --- whichever you choose

 

Bible (from the bible or pick a program; what does your church use?)

 

Your narration, dictation and copywork will be in PR, science and history. Since you're in charge of All that, just keep a balanced list of each skill (easily plugged into PR) and you're set. VP takes care of memorization.

 

Read and memorize poetry from one source (A Child's Garden of Verses) each week and you're good.

 

Not so hard.

Tina,

 

I adore your plan actually and it's almost a summary of what I'm considering EXCEPT that I'd like to use SL for another year....and maybe MOH for a four year rotation leaving one year for cultures...then figuring out how to finish up logic with the two in the middle.

 

Honestly, your thinking is very closely aligned with what I'm thinking right down to Apologia. It is my first choice. ES looks good but does lack the Creation perspective I want ....

 

DH is out of commission so home from work....he's working on stuff with me today which is glorious. :001_smile:

[PeterPan]

Well see I'm such a goofball, I thought you were already using it and just weren't happy! You're going to be fine!!! VP creates a terrific structure for a history-lover. You ought to read on the VP_Elementary group and meet some of the history lovers. Clearly Jami is. The down side is you're going to have to plan it. That's why I'm so loose, because no matter how hard I try I can't make a plan that fits my dd. She's rather non-standard (dyslexic, thinks hands-on isn't hands-on unless it involves chopping down trees, etc.), so she's just a mess to teach. Most people aren't like that. I think most people make a plan and work it. In our house plans just get complained about, lol. I do more getting out of the way than teaching.

 

So is your 8 yo a 2nd grader this year? I think your take on MOH is right. I love what you've been doing so far. Have you looked at the workbook for CHOW? It might take things up just enough of a notch to make you happy. It has terrific outlining, some simple activities, etc. Check it out. Once a mom posted about using clipboards with her dc while she read aloud. They each had an age-appropriate thing to do (color, mark a photocopied CHOW timeline, map, draw for a narration, outline, etc.). Maybe that will get your brain whirring. Our history writing has varied over the years. Just look at the WTM recs and see how you can make them happen. When she was younger we did do some of the worksheets, just for the writing practice. However I'm with Jami on them. Right now she takes a lot of notes while doing the online class. It's funny to me because she does that all on her own. Then we take notes she makes (geography, etc.) and turn them into paragraphs. That book basket becomes good fodder for writing. You can always narrate/notebook your read-aloud, but you can keep it fresh by narrating instead from what they read in their read aloud or doing a more creative assignment (fictitious captain's log, etc.). You'll figure it out.

 

I understand your frustration with wanting a certain thing. It doesn't really exist, and combining 20 things doesn't necessarily get you any closer. You have a good dynamic going, so don't feel compelled to leave that. Use things in a way that help you KEEP what's already working. You could use MOH in a couple years and just relegate VP to memory work time. You could let VP drive and start cycling through. If you want to do that, you could read and finish CHOW over the summer.

 

Well I'm out of time. Be a little more confident. Anything you do will be good, honest. :)

[abrightmom]

Well see I'm such a goofball, I thought you were already using it and just weren't happy! You're going to be fine!!! VP creates a terrific structure for a history-lover. You ought to read on the VP_Elementary group and meet some of the history lovers. Clearly Jami is. The down side is you're going to have to plan it. That's why I'm so loose, because no matter how hard I try I can't make a plan that fits my dd. She's rather non-standard (dyslexic, thinks hands-on isn't hands-on unless it involves chopping down trees, etc.), so she's just a mess to teach. Most people aren't like that. I think most people make a plan and work it. In our house plans just get complained about, lol. I do more getting out of the way than teaching.

 

So is your 8 yo a 2nd grader this year? I think your take on MOH is right. I love what you've been doing so far. Have you looked at the workbook for CHOW? It might take things up just enough of a notch to make you happy. It has terrific outlining, some simple activities, etc. Check it out. Once a mom posted about using clipboards with her dc while she read aloud. They each had an age-appropriate thing to do (color, mark a photocopied CHOW timeline, map, draw for a narration, outline, etc.). Maybe that will get your brain whirring. Our history writing has varied over the years. Just look at the WTM recs and see how you can make them happen. When she was younger we did do some of the worksheets, just for the writing practice. However I'm with Jami on them. Right now she takes a lot of notes while doing the online class. It's funny to me because she does that all on her own. Then we take notes she makes (geography, etc.) and turn them into paragraphs. That book basket becomes good fodder for writing. You can always narrate/notebook your read-aloud, but you can keep it fresh by narrating instead from what they read in their read aloud or doing a more creative assignment (fictitious captain's log, etc.). You'll figure it out.

 

I understand your frustration with wanting a certain thing. It doesn't really exist, and combining 20 things doesn't necessarily get you any closer. You have a good dynamic going, so don't feel compelled to leave that. Use things in a way that help you KEEP what's already working. You could use MOH in a couple years and just relegate VP to memory work time. You could let VP drive and start cycling through. If you want to do that, you could read and finish CHOW over the summer.

 

Well I'm out of time. Be a little more confident. Anything you do will be good, honest. :)

 

Glorious! Thanks OhE. Thanks so so so much. I really appreciate you...

[Heather in VA]

Another thing to keep in mind... this is the grammar stage. The cards really help you stay focused on that. The main goal should be to memorize the cards in the timeline and focus on the information given in the timeline. I do not condone memorizing things without context. But if you focus and really work on the memory part, then you are establishing those hooks that will be of tremendous use to them in the years to come as they make connections and study more deeply. That doesn't mean you shouldn't read books with it or do projects or go off on tangents etc, but just remember the core is to learn those cards and that information. I have seen it pay big dividends with my kids when I was sure they didn't remember something but what they learned on that card triggered their memory and they made connections I didn't know they could.

 

I think history can get so complicated and overwhelming because we know there is so much to learn and we feel like we have to learn it all. Let the cards focus your learning and it will really take a lot of pressure off.

 

Heather

[Jami]

Another thing to keep in mind... this is the grammar stage. The cards really help you stay focused on that. The main goal should be to memorize the cards in the timeline and focus on the information given in the timeline. I do not condone memorizing things without context. But if you focus and really work on the memory part, then you are establishing those hooks that will be of tremendous use to them in the years to come as they make connections and study more deeply. That doesn't mean you shouldn't read books with it or do projects or go off on tangents etc, but just remember the core is to learn those cards and that information. I have seen it pay big dividends with my kids when I was sure they didn't remember something but what they learned on that card triggered their memory and they made connections I didn't know they could.

 

I think history can get so complicated and overwhelming because we know there is so much to learn and we feel like we have to learn it all. Let the cards focus your learning and it will really take a lot of pressure off.

 

Heather

 

I agree with you Heather that in these early years keeping it simple and focused on basics is so much more important. I disagree that the goal is memorizing the timeline though. I think the goal of history in the grammar stage should be sparking interest, learning to love the stories of history. We want to learn more about things that we care about. How do we teach children to care about these far away times and people? Even the timeline itself is a more logic-stage idea, in terms of really understanding the progression of history. But the VP cards are great tools for helping to place some of the pegs for later familiarity.

 

I'm not even sure one should even think of it as "teaching history" necessarily in these years. It's reading. Reading stories, reading biographies, reading living nonfiction. A formal study of history would looks at cause and effect more, analyzes research, etc. I know I felt for several years that I was doing a poor job of teaching history because we didn't always do map work, or fill in the timeline, or read several books on a period. But we're always reading (or listening to CDs) and I'm amazed at how much my kids have retained about historical figures and events.

 

While Elizabeth is very right in saying that I love history, I actually would say that I love literature more. History provides the context for the wonderful stories I want my children to hear. When we read Greek myths, it's natural to learn more of the people and places where these myths were told. When we read Arthurian legends, we want to know more about Britain. Church history is *family* history to us as believers.

 

Remember that Veritas Press is a publishing and curriculum providing company, they are not a school. So when they make suggestions, it's not a particular teacher (most of the time) walking you through what she is doing in her classroom or homeschool. I think the primary resources are too encyclopedic and not narrative enough. Look at their biography and historical literature selections, choose maybe 6 to highlight a few people or events for the year. Then choose 6 really good pieces of literature to read together, VP's literature is not all connected with their history. Pick a great spine for the period, I love CHOW for the pre-3rd grade crowd and SOTW on CD. If you want more books, a book basket it a great idea. They can read a few books that are just below or at their reading level and you can have a read aloud going that challenges their vocabulary and understanding a bit.

 

I'm very Charlotte Mason-influenced and I try to let the kids make connections on their own without too much direct teaching. And they do a great job.

 

Here's basically how I plan out a semester: I sit down with my main spine (or spines) this year that's the Memoria Press edited Guerber's 13 Colonies and the one after that whose name always escapes me and my Explorers to 1815 cards. I have "All Through the Ages" handy to give me a timeline and more book suggestions, most of which are VP recs also. Then I write out Week 1--and a topic or person--Guerber starts with Viking Exploration to America, but VP starts with Henry the Navigator. Since we covered the Vikings in the middle ages, I don't plan many readings for that week. Just Ch. 1 of Guerber and the D'Aulaire's Leif the Lucky book, I'll also look through CHOW and SOTW if there are chapters there that add more information. I may also toss Viking Tales or Norse Myths at them to read from. We look over a couple of maps to see where the Vikings were coming from and where they ended up. I go on from there making about 40 weeks of rough plans, most using the cards to keep us moving forward, but also wanting to read through the spine and not just jump around.

 

Is that at all helpful? A lot of what I do feels so natural and makes sense to me but I'm not sure it translates well to steps that are easy to communicate. We read, we talk and write, I refer to things we've learned when we encounter them in other places. I don't do projects or notebooking I'm afraid. My kids do their own stuff sometimes, but I'm a book mom, not a making stuff mom. :tongue_smilie:

[abrightmom]

I agree with you Heather that in these early years keeping it simple and focused on basics is so much more important. I disagree that the goal is memorizing the timeline though. I think the goal of history in the grammar stage should be sparking interest, learning to love the stories of history. We want to learn more about things that we care about. How do we teach children to care about these far away times and people? Even the timeline itself is a more logic-stage idea, in terms of really understanding the progression of history. But the VP cards are great tools for helping to place some of the pegs for later familiarity.

 

I'm not even sure one should even think of it as "teaching history" necessarily in these years. It's reading. Reading stories, reading biographies, reading living nonfiction. A formal study of history would looks at cause and effect more, analyzes research, etc. I know I felt for several years that I was doing a poor job of teaching history because we didn't always do map work, or fill in the timeline, or read several books on a period. But we're always reading (or listening to CDs) and I'm amazed at how much my kids have retained about historical figures and events.

 

While Elizabeth is very right in saying that I love history, I actually would say that I love literature more. History provides the context for the wonderful stories I want my children to hear. When we read Greek myths, it's natural to learn more of the people and places where these myths were told. When we read Arthurian legends, we want to know more about Britain. Church history is *family* history to us as believers.

 

Remember that Veritas Press is a publishing and curriculum providing company, they are not a school. So when they make suggestions, it's not a particular teacher (most of the time) walking you through what she is doing in her classroom or homeschool. I think the primary resources are too encyclopedic and not narrative enough. Look at their biography and historical literature selections, choose maybe 6 to highlight a few people or events for the year. Then choose 6 really good pieces of literature to read together, VP's literature is not all connected with their history. Pick a great spine for the period, I love CHOW for the pre-3rd grade crowd and SOTW on CD. If you want more books, a book basket it a great idea. They can read a few books that are just below or at their reading level and you can have a read aloud going that challenges their vocabulary and understanding a bit.

 

I'm very Charlotte Mason-influenced and I try to let the kids make connections on their own without too much direct teaching. And they do a great job.

 

Here's basically how I plan out a semester: I sit down with my main spine (or spines) this year that's the Memoria Press edited Guerber's 13 Colonies and the one after that whose name always escapes me and my Explorers to 1815 cards. I have "All Through the Ages" handy to give me a timeline and more book suggestions, most of which are VP recs also. Then I write out Week 1--and a topic or person--Guerber starts with Viking Exploration to America, but VP starts with Henry the Navigator. Since we covered the Vikings in the middle ages, I don't plan many readings for that week. Just Ch. 1 of Guerber and the D'Aulaire's Leif the Lucky book, I'll also look through CHOW and SOTW if there are chapters there that add more information. I may also toss Viking Tales or Norse Myths at them to read from. We look over a couple of maps to see where the Vikings were coming from and where they ended up. I go on from there making about 40 weeks of rough plans, most using the cards to keep us moving forward, but also wanting to read through the spine and not just jump around.

 

Is that at all helpful? A lot of what I do feels so natural and makes sense to me but I'm not sure it translates well to steps that are easy to communicate. We read, we talk and write, I refer to things we've learned when we encounter them in other places. I don't do projects or notebooking I'm afraid. My kids do their own stuff sometimes, but I'm a book mom, not a making stuff mom. :tongue_smilie:

 

Jami,

 

That is very helpful and I'm going to sit on it for this week. All Through the Ages looks very good and may be a resource I need. Will that help me with the Book Basket? My children absolutely LOVE books...being read TO...and reading (for my oldest two). But I want to fill that basket with the right kind of books.

 

I will look at MP's Guerber histories. They are highly interesting to me!

 

I adore CM and have been devouring her writings and ideas.... I just read something today on Lindafay's site about getting out of the way....it resonated with me. My oldest son adores SOTW and he's been listening to Volume 2 again. I was sweeping and he was telling me all about Sinbad. I asked him, "Son, where did you read this story?" He told me he listened to it in SOTW and I realized he was narrating! Another lightbulb for me has been my son's innate (is that the right word?) ability to make connections without any help from me.... it just happens for him.

 

Jami, I think the way you do history is very inspiring and about as close to what I want to do as anything I've found. I love reading with the kids and talking about what we're reading....we don't need anything heavier than that right now....I just lack the background to pull it together. I need "helps" such as a timeline, book lists, etc.

 

Do you do any kind of timeline with the kids (an official on paper/on the wall kind)? I may have asked but do you actually memorize the VP cards or are they simply a teaching tool?

 

Are you moving toward Omnibus? At what point will you move your oldest to something other than what you're doing now? Do all of your children study within the same time period?

 

I have a lot to think and pray about. How do you write about the history/literature? Do you use the WTM recommendations? I adore SWB's writing lectures and I've been devouring TWTM again taking detailed notes and making lists. Her writing progression makes sense to me and I find it easy to understand/implement for the most part.

 

Thanks Jami!

[PeterPan]

Actually, there is a VP school. The materials they sell are what they use in their classes. The Scholars lessons were written by the teachers at the school. What you're sensing though is that the materials are more alive in context, with a teacher behind them. The online classes are STUNNING compared to what I was doing with just the materials myself. It's how the teachers meant it to be and how I'm guessing they are in the classroom. They just haven't managed to convey that yet into the printed materials, which are pretty barebones.

[PeterPan]

Katrina--The MP Guerber version is a beta right now (or was at the convention). As soon as it's the regular version, absolutely I'd go for it. I have the NothingNewPress versions, and I really like the MP. They'd be great for your gang now, a year from now, whatever. They'd go exceptionally well with the VP cards.

[Heather in VA]

Actually, there is a VP school. The materials they sell are what they use in their classes. The Scholars lessons were written by the teachers at the school. What you're sensing though is that the materials are more alive in context, with a teacher behind them. The online classes are STUNNING compared to what I was doing with just the materials myself. It's how the teachers meant it to be and how I'm guessing they are in the classroom. They just haven't managed to convey that yet into the printed materials, which are pretty barebones.

 

Yes because they are very talented teachers when it comes to history - and well - I'm not LOL.

 

Their online class and school really stress the memorization of the timeline as well. It serves as those pegs you want down the road. That doesn't mean you don't spark their interest or read a bunch of books or talk about the people or any of those things Jami talks about. It just means that you don't stress about the mapwork or if your kid forgets the name of that Pharaoh or if they remember everything from the Guerber book etc. Those things spark the interest but the cards are those pegs that will serve them down the road for Logic and Rhetoric stage work. I know this has been true for my kids as they moved into logic work and now Rhetoric work with Omnibus.

 

Heather

[mama25angels]

Jami, I hope you don't mind me butting in to ask a question, but i'm trying to make sure that I understand how you do your planning. You let your narrative spine "drive" and then add in the cards, is that correct?

Edited April 18, 2011 by mama25angels

[abrightmom]

I agree with you Heather that in these early years keeping it simple and focused on basics is so much more important. I disagree that the goal is memorizing the timeline though. I think the goal of history in the grammar stage should be sparking interest, learning to love the stories of history. We want to learn more about things that we care about. How do we teach children to care about these far away times and people? Even the timeline itself is a more logic-stage idea, in terms of really understanding the progression of history. But the VP cards are great tools for helping to place some of the pegs for later familiarity.

 

I'm not even sure one should even think of it as "teaching history" necessarily in these years. It's reading. Reading stories, reading biographies, reading living nonfiction. A formal study of history would looks at cause and effect more, analyzes research, etc. I know I felt for several years that I was doing a poor job of teaching history because we didn't always do map work, or fill in the timeline, or read several books on a period. But we're always reading (or listening to CDs) and I'm amazed at how much my kids have retained about historical figures and events.

 

While Elizabeth is very right in saying that I love history, I actually would say that I love literature more. History provides the context for the wonderful stories I want my children to hear. When we read Greek myths, it's natural to learn more of the people and places where these myths were told. When we read Arthurian legends, we want to know more about Britain. Church history is *family* history to us as believers.

 

Remember that Veritas Press is a publishing and curriculum providing company, they are not a school. So when they make suggestions, it's not a particular teacher (most of the time) walking you through what she is doing in her classroom or homeschool. I think the primary resources are too encyclopedic and not narrative enough. Look at their biography and historical literature selections, choose maybe 6 to highlight a few people or events for the year. Then choose 6 really good pieces of literature to read together, VP's literature is not all connected with their history. Pick a great spine for the period, I love CHOW for the pre-3rd grade crowd and SOTW on CD. If you want more books, a book basket it a great idea. They can read a few books that are just below or at their reading level and you can have a read aloud going that challenges their vocabulary and understanding a bit.

 

I'm very Charlotte Mason-influenced and I try to let the kids make connections on their own without too much direct teaching. And they do a great job.

 

Here's basically how I plan out a semester: I sit down with my main spine (or spines) this year that's the Memoria Press edited Guerber's 13 Colonies and the one after that whose name always escapes me and my Explorers to 1815 cards. I have "All Through the Ages" handy to give me a timeline and more book suggestions, most of which are VP recs also. Then I write out Week 1--and a topic or person--Guerber starts with Viking Exploration to America, but VP starts with Henry the Navigator. Since we covered the Vikings in the middle ages, I don't plan many readings for that week. Just Ch. 1 of Guerber and the D'Aulaire's Leif the Lucky book, I'll also look through CHOW and SOTW if there are chapters there that add more information. I may also toss Viking Tales or Norse Myths at them to read from. We look over a couple of maps to see where the Vikings were coming from and where they ended up. I go on from there making about 40 weeks of rough plans, most using the cards to keep us moving forward, but also wanting to read through the spine and not just jump around.

 

Is that at all helpful? A lot of what I do feels so natural and makes sense to me but I'm not sure it translates well to steps that are easy to communicate. We read, we talk and write, I refer to things we've learned when we encounter them in other places. I don't do projects or notebooking I'm afraid. My kids do their own stuff sometimes, but I'm a book mom, not a making stuff mom. :tongue_smilie:

 

Jami,

 

How does that plan change when your kiddo or kiddos hit Logic Stage? If you use Omnibus then that is an easy answer .... :001_smile: But if not, what do you foresee in your planning and preparations?

[PeterPan]

The trouble with me is I agree with both ways of approaching this. With some students you really do want to give them room to explore, wade, wallow, and enjoy. And yet, if you do that and DON'T end up nailing enough of the basics, you'll get to Omnibus and go "Minoan who???" And I think that's where Heather is coming from, having done so many levels of Omnibus. She's a bit ahead of us on this one.

 

I think we all need to find our own ways to have and eat our cake, so to say. I don't think it has to look exactly the same for everyone. For instance, I suggested to Katrina that she could take her mix of kids and use the Q&A from the cards as fun quiz games during memory time. She'd still do the work and nail those things, but she'd keep that narrative spine and history wallowing she enjoys. More power to her. Some people spend a lot more time on history than others too. In reality, the VP history can be done in a pretty trim fashion. Some people spend 2-3 days a week on history, and some like us are doing 2-3 things at once, just cuz we're nuts.

 

The only thing I'm curious about is Heather's impression that VP online doesn't do a lot of rabbit trails. That's actually the very thing dd has enjoyed so much about it, that they DO explore the stories behind things, the maps, the why's, the context. We're doing MARR self-paced, and it's going WAY farther into the topics than I could have taken her. She finds it very engaging. My *guess* and only a guess is that they ramp up each year. So while you can do any of the self-paced years with any child, I think they're increasing in difficulty. We decided not to do the earlier levels (OTAE and NTGR), as fun as they would have been, partly because money eventually runs out and partly because we figured the level they would cover them at was pretty close to whatever we got out of it from my pathetic teaching. But the MARR definitely excels what I would have done. We actually thought about signing up for *all* the classes and letting her do them all in a year, she enjoys them so much. We didn't, but it sure would have been fun!

 

Did that muddy the waters more? I think it's hard to say memory work and memorization has to be the goal, as not everyone has that. It absolutely helps to have a thorough foundation to go into Omnibus. But if you're planning to cycle through history 3 times (as many people are), you don't necessarily care what specifics they're retaining the first time through. Just depends on your goals and where you're going.

[PeterPan]

BTW, our VP_Elementary group probably already has Guerber scheduled to the VP cards, which would save you some time. The pages would be off. Did we do it by chapters or pages? Humbug, then maybe it won't save you time, lol. In any case, it's worth checking the files.

[Heather in VA]

.

 

The only thing I'm curious about is Heather's impression that VP online doesn't do a lot of rabbit trails. That's actually the very thing dd has enjoyed so much about it, that they DO explore the stories behind things, the maps, the why's, the context.

 

Oh I didn't mean to imply that they didn't. I just mean they REALLY emphasize the memory song/timeline. You do that every day. It's in every quiz, etc. I absolutely love the way the online program works. What I do find though, is that when my daughter seems to have forgotten info from one of those 'rabbit trails' or the 'why' of something, its the card that sparks her memory of it. I see those pegs already active in her head sparking the memories. So sometimes I can ask a direct question about the rabbit trail and she might forget what they said, but then as we discuss the card she'll start telling me about the card and remember what she learned. So I don't stress that she can't be quizzed on every detail of every story and every rabbit trail. Its in there and down the road when that information is helpful, the connections will come.

 

Heather

[Woodland_Mom]

Thank-you. It is going to be my undoing and the destruction of my children if I don't figure it out soon...... :001_smile:

 

The ideas are manifold.... why oh why can't I just use HOD and be happy about it? It's the "box".... I always wanted the safety of the "box" yet I fight the "box". So, now, I'm facing the reality that I want out of the "box"....but I'm still scared. I am at the point of standing up in the box and peering around at the world outside. But, I'm not willing to step OUT of the box just yet.....:

 

I totally relate to what you're saying. I've purchased more than my share of curriculum packages, only to find that my insatiable appetite for the perfect thing is not in my hand. I agree with Elizabeth! The perfect thing doesn't exist. You either have to be happy tweaking a boxed program, combining a few things, or be confident enough to go at it on your own--something that is much easier said than done!

[Jami]

I'm such a non-systematic person, I want to give lots of warnings that this is how history organically grew here. I fear not being very helpful with teaching others how to approach it. :) I'm such a big idea person, that's why I appreciate SWB for many things, she breaks ideas into smaller, bite-sized skills so well.

 

I probably use Ambleside as my primary model for how to set up history. A couple narrative spines, 3-4 biographies, and 3-4 historical fiction works. They may line up really neatly, or they may not, but the period is the same for the year. The VP cards serve as helpful reminder pegs for the kids and me. And when I feel like we're not moving ahead chronologically, they help me know what the next big point on the timeline should be. That's an abstract timeline, we don't actually keep a written one yet. We will begin keeping a Book of Centuries next year in 6th grade when we get back around to the Ancients. WTM recommends starting the timeline in 5th grade.

 

Angelina (cajun.classical) is a dear friend and used VP cards in the classical school she taught at before coming home to homeschool. She's a great help to me on how to use them with spines like Guerber. Do check out the Yahoo group for some of her posts, I'm not sure she's posted much here about how she does things. I've been blessed to have her mentor me a bit. :)

 

I'm not sure if we're moving toward Omnibus or not, specifically. I love Ambleside's Year 7 and 8 and would like to work through those and then do a 4 year cycle in 9-12. I'm not history-driven though, but Great Books I would say. Again, history is the context for the literature for me, getting all the dates and names down matters less to me than being ready to encounter the ideas and rich language of the Great Books. Omnibus is one tool I may very well use, but I'm not concerned that we'll flounder if we don't have the timeline memorized.

 

For writing about history, we mostly do written narrations. My oldest is a 4th grader and he and his sister write 2-3 narrations a week. They also have to give an oral narration for most things they read. For example, this week they're covering Columbus. So they read the information on the card, read the chapters in Guerber, read the D'Aulaire biography (easy for them, but fun to read), and I will read to them from "Explorers Who Got Lost". I will either have them write 5-6 sentences about a specific reading, or at the end of the week I will have them write what they have learned about Columbus and let them pull the pieces together. I'd guess they'd each write a page or so.

 

We've built up to that with lots of oral narrations and Writing With Ease steps.

 

I'm trying to remember what other questions you asked...

[Jami]

We don't use the songs with the cards. I flip through them once a week or so and ask the kids to tell me a couple things they remember about one of the older cards. So oral exams. ;) "Tell me what you remember about The Magna Charta". They seem to recall things. I'm not sure they can put them in order perfectly, but they're gaining a sense of what was before or after certain events. Little by little.

[Jami]

And I think "All Through the Ages" is an excellent resource. But it's very easy to pile on too many books, at least it is for me. I make these huge lists of books we're going to read, buy too many, and then burn the kids out. VP lists a dozen or so biographies on Reformers. That's WAY too many unless the kids want to just keep reading on their own. But to try and cover in a few weeks, too much. I have to remind myself that I'm looking at this from the perspective of years of historical reading and learning, it's not fair to expect my kids to match me when they're 10 and under! I'm laying a good foundation, I think. But we will by necessity skip some people and events this time around. And maybe the next. History is a big subject!

[abrightmom]

I'm such a non-systematic person, I want to give lots of warnings that this is how history organically grew here. I fear not being very helpful with teaching others how to approach it. :) I'm such a big idea person, that's why I appreciate SWB for many things, she breaks ideas into smaller, bite-sized skills so well.

 

I probably use Ambleside as my primary model for how to set up history. A couple narrative spines, 3-4 biographies, and 3-4 historical fiction works. They may line up really neatly, or they may not, but the period is the same for the year. The VP cards serve as helpful reminder pegs for the kids and me. And when I feel like we're not moving ahead chronologically, they help me know what the next big point on the timeline should be. That's an abstract timeline, we don't actually keep a written one yet. We will begin keeping a Book of Centuries next year in 6th grade when we get back around to the Ancients. WTM recommends starting the timeline in 5th grade.

 

Angelina (cajun.classical) is a dear friend and used VP cards in the classical school she taught at before coming home to homeschool. She's a great help to me on how to use them with spines like Guerber. Do check out the Yahoo group for some of her posts, I'm not sure she's posted much here about how she does things. I've been blessed to have her mentor me a bit. :)

 

I'm not sure if we're moving toward Omnibus or not, specifically. I love Ambleside's Year 7 and 8 and would like to work through those and then do a 4 year cycle in 9-12. I'm not history-driven though, but Great Books I would say. Again, history is the context for the literature for me, getting all the dates and names down matters less to me than being ready to encounter the ideas and rich language of the Great Books. Omnibus is one tool I may very well use, but I'm not concerned that we'll flounder if we don't have the timeline memorized.

 

For writing about history, we mostly do written narrations. My oldest is a 4th grader and he and his sister write 2-3 narrations a week. They also have to give an oral narration for most things they read. For example, this week they're covering Columbus. So they read the information on the card, read the chapters in Guerber, read the D'Aulaire biography (easy for them, but fun to read), and I will read to them from "Explorers Who Got Lost". I will either have them write 5-6 sentences about a specific reading, or at the end of the week I will have them write what they have learned about Columbus and let them pull the pieces together. I'd guess they'd each write a page or so.

 

We've built up to that with lots of oral narrations and Writing With Ease steps.

 

I'm trying to remember what other questions you asked...

 

Jami,

 

What a blessing you are to your kiddos! :001_smile: I vaguely recall Angelina recommending Guerber on the VP group when I was researching it (this has been awhile). I'll go back to that...

 

Your specifics really help me. I have NO idea what we'll do...I do not bring an understanding of the Great Books to our homeschool table. I do not bring a grasp of history...I have ideas and desires but not personal knowledge base or experience to pull from. My biggest roadblock is me.... Somehow I have to reconcile what I want with what I'm able to do.... Accepting my weaknesses and limitations.... realizing I'm not going to own the GB before my kids might be reading them....

 

You answered some Omnibus questions for me some time ago and I didn't realize it was you until a couple of days ago.... The thread is here:http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170944&highlight=Omnibus

 

It's taken me awhile just to wrap my mind around "why" and "do I want to read them" and "do I want my kids to read them"....I'm still struggling with that. I want them to to a point.... but since I have NO experience with them then I have no context for making that decision. I have SWB's word on it :001_smile: (that it's important) but GB is an unscalable mountain from my vantage point....Can't I just drive around the mountain??

 

How do you fold Ambleside Online in? I adore their book selections & suggestions but again get flustered when trying to decide what to read and when.

:001_smile: You've been so kind and I'll stop asking questions now....

[Jami]

Katrina,

 

:grouphug: I never gave you a hug. :) You're doing a great job. You want to learn with your kids, you're excited about teaching them, you're helping them to love books and learn that reading can open doors to lifelong learning. The tools don't have to be chosen perfectly, kids who love to read and discuss ideas are well on their way!

 

I have not looked at the VP Teacher's guides enough to see if they integrate the Biblical worldview into the history teaching in the way you seem to be hoping for. The events and people are covered, but I'm not sure you get much help in guiding discussions that integrate worldview into understanding history. Again, I tend to trust that as we teach our children about their faith and they grow in Christ, they'll apply some of those things on their own without my having to directly teach it all. The power of a well-asked question is amazing. In the grammar stage I like "Tell me about X" Andrew Kern's favorite question is "Should..." "Should Richard the Lionhearted have gone off on the Crusades?" But that's maybe more of a logic-stage question.

 

I've never used SL, MOH, HOD, TOG...so I just can't compare and speak to those plans and compare them with VP. And with VP I've only used the cards and booklists.

[Woodland_Mom]

Angela,

 

Thanks for sharing a good report here! I appreciate what you've shared.... Can you compare VP and MFW? I like MFW but I really think I don't want all subjects planned for me....I'd like more control over what we study when in Bible, science, etc. And I am longing for the freedom to be more choosy with history spines, read alouds, etc. But that's a lot of planning for a Mom (so it seems) and I back away...

 

Would love to hear your comparisons...:001_smile:

 

 

When I compare VP and MFW the biggest difference in my mind is that MFW is classical and Charlotte Mason-ish, while VP is mostly rooted in the classical approach. I think that anyone who uses VP as recommended will KNOW history. The student will have pegs of history in their mind AND stories to go with them. Of course, no one can know it all, but someone who has used VP will have an excellent foundation of the stories of our past. Someone who uses MFW will certanily learn MUCH about history, but IMO the student only becomes acquainted with stories. Students are exposed and guided through history through reading, narration, notebooking, etc. There is no real memory work component.

 

Would you like a comparison of MFW and VP Scholars (lesson plans) or are you looking for a comparison between MFW and the VP Teacher guide only? As I've read through some of your posts, it sounds like VP Scholars could work for you.

[Jami]

When I compare VP and MFW the biggest difference in my mind is that MFW is classical and Charlotte Mason-ish, while VP is mostly rooted in the classical approach. I think that anyone who uses VP as recommended will KNOW history. The student will have pegs of history in their mind AND stories to go with them. Of course, no one can know it all, but someone who has used VP will have an excellent foundation of the stories of our past. Someone who uses MFW will certanily learn MUCH about history, but IMO the student only becomes acquainted with stories. Students are exposed and guided through history through reading, narration, notebooking, etc. There is no real memory work component.

 

Would you like a comparison of MFW and VP Scholars (lesson plans) or are you looking for a comparison between MFW and the VP Teacher guide only? As I've read through some of your posts, it sounds like VP Scholars could work for you.

 

But the pegs can be learned and retained without direct memory work. How else would the stories be remembered? They're not memorized in full. I'm just going to have to stand with Charlotte M. on this one and say that relationship is the key to learning. Children truly learn things they have a relationship with, care about. I'm not sure remembering facts is even the same thing as *knowing* history. Knowing the name of something and knowing about it is not the same thing as understanding it. It's like the sciences. The names and facts for biology or chemistry can be learned pretty quickly, but if the student hasn't learned to observe closely, ask good questions, think through conclusions, they're not ready to *do* science.

 

I think it's easy for the VP program to quickly become too classroom/schoolish. But it's a tool and wouldn't have to be. Maybe I can get Angelina to chime in here with her thoughts.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Jami