Teaching Passover / Pesach

[Spy Car]

Well, in fairness, it is a phrase coined by jews that believe Jesus is the Messiah. It's not like she's making it up as she types. Many jews that have converted to Christianity identify themselves as messianic jews. So, offensive or not, it is a proper phrase that a people group embrace to identify themselves.

 

Susan

 

In fairness Susan, Jews (most) believe there will be a Moshiach. But they have never believed this temporal leader would be either a "savior" or a divine personage of God or a divine Son of God, and they specifically do not believe Jesus was/is that Moshiach. People who believe in those things are called "Christians" and this has been so for almost 2000 years. It is not really complicated.

 

Unfortunately posts like these, which we can (unfortunately) look forward to ever year create a hostile environment for Jews who practice Judaism and those of us who would just like a sense of the Jewish festivals without dealing with the attempted expropriation of these holidays by Christians.

 

Bill

[susankenny]

In fairness Susan, Jews (most) believe there will be a Moshiach. But they have never believed this temporal leader would be either a "savior" or a divine personage of God or a divine Son of God, and they specifically do not believe Jesus was/is that Moshiach. People who believe in those things are called "Christians" and this has been so for almost 2000 years. It is not really complicated.

 

Unfortunately posts like these, which we can (unfortunately) look forward to ever year create a hostile environment for Jews who practice Judaism and those of us who would just like a sense of the Jewish festivals without dealing with the attempted expropriation of these holidays by Christians.

 

Bill

 

Bill,

 

I don't care about any of it, so I don't really need convincing. I'm just stating a fact that jew converts (to the Christian faith) call themselves messianic jews. They have strong convictions about their jewish heritage tying into their faith in Jesus. Tell them their wrong. Not me.

 

Susan

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Messianicmom

Since I've seen this twice, I'd thought I would try to clarify that there is no such thing as a Messianic Christian, it's actually a contradiction in terms; you're either a Christian or you're a Messianic Jew or Gentile.

 

Chabadnicks are messianic Jews, as are most Jews. I call tell you how much offense you cause by referring those who believe Jesus is the Christ as "Messianic Jews" amongst Jews who practice Judaism. You must know this. People are being polite with you here, but I don't feel you are showing the same respect.

 

Bill

I'm not sure if what I wrote caused offense. I'm trying to keep up. If it did I apologize. I thought 'Messianic Christian is what the Christians that have departed from Protestantism to celebrate 'biblical' holidays call themselves. ETA: And they for the most part are were not Jewish to begin with. Edited April 18, 2011 by happyhappyjoyjoy

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

Bill,

 

I don't care about any of it, so I don't really need convincing. I'm just stating a fact that jew converts (to the Christian faith) call themselves messianic jews. They have strong convictions about their jewish heritage tying into their faith in Jesus. Tell them their wrong. Not me.

 

Susan

 

I know several Jews that have converted and they don't call themselves Messianic Jews. One calls herself Christian, more specifically evangelical. Another calls herself Catholic. Etc....

[Spy Car]

I'm not sure if what I wrote caused offense. I'm trying to keep up. If it did I apologize. I thought 'Messianic Christian is what the Christians that have departed from Protestantism to celebrate 'biblical' holidays call themselves. ETA: And they for the most part are were not Jewish to begin with.

 

 

You are correct there are groups of Christian Protestants who have embraced a form of Christian with Jewish trappings who call themselves Messianic Christians.

 

There are other groups, like Jews for Jesus that were started by Evangelical Christians and aimed at converting Jews. These groups also adopt Jewish trappings, but are Christian. Unfortunately they insist on calling themselves "Messianic Jews" when they do not practice Judaism. This causes grave insult in the Jewish community.

 

Bill

[laughing lioness]

I know several Jews that have converted and they don't call themselves Messianic Jews. One calls herself Christian, more specifically evangelical. Another calls herself Catholic. Etc....

 

My Rabbi friend who is a believer in Yeshua calls himself a believing Jew.

[Spy Car]

Why is this year like ever other year?

 

Bill

[Koerarmoca]

My friends blog has some good stuff on it http://yhwhleads.blogspot.com/2011/04/passion-week-for-our-littles-how-does.html :001_smile:

[Jay3fer]

My Rabbi friend who is a believer in Yeshua calls himself a believing Jew.

 

Lisa: I'm just curious, (seriously not trying to debate anybody - and too busy anyway, even if I wanted to), I'm wondering if he was a rabbi first or a Christian first?

 

Another thought: It occured to me in the depths of my scrubbing today that some of the people who are most vehement about their right to claim Jewish festivals and cultural celebrations might also be vehemently against those who seek to appropriate Christian celebrations like Christmas and Easter, whether to secularize them or to superimpose meanings which dilute the unique nature of the festival (ie, Easter isn't simply a "spring holiday" and Christmas isn't primarily a "universal gift-giving holiday"). I've heard Christians adamantly defend the "reason for the season" and I'm wondering if Jews may indeed have the same right with respect to our God-given festivals.

 

In any event, I haven't the time or energy right now (see time stamp) to discuss at length, but this was an embryonic thought that I wanted to bring to light and see if perhaps that lent some perspective. I'd love to hear others' thoughts when I emerge from the cocoon that is cooking plus Yom Tov tomorrow evening.

 

(what's cooking? check my blog for updates throughout the day!)

[Karis]

Why is this year like ever other year?

 

Bill

 

 

:lol: ;)

[Karis]

Another thought: It occured to me in the depths of my scrubbing today that some of the people who are most vehement about their right to claim Jewish festivals and cultural celebrations might also be vehemently against those who seek to appropriate Christian celebrations like Christmas and Easter, whether to secularize them or to superimpose meanings which dilute the unique nature of the festival (ie, Easter isn't simply a "spring holiday" and Christmas isn't primarily a "universal gift-giving holiday"). I've heard Christians adamantly defend the "reason for the season" and I'm wondering if Jews may indeed have the same right with respect to our God-given festivals.

 

QUOTE]

 

 

I would think those who embrace Judaism would not care about someone else celebrating other holidays. They would simply say "As for me and my house..."

 

Considering/ doing anything more "to see how they like it" would come across as spiteful and petty.

 

Even if someone does not celebrate the Holy Days, we know what kind of religion is "acceptable." ;)

 

*has something to do with sharing, caring, feeding, giving, doing good works, righteousness, being a light to the nations.

[susankenny]

I know several Jews that have converted and they don't call themselves Messianic Jews. One calls herself Christian, more specifically evangelical. Another calls herself Catholic. Etc....

 

 

Then they do not attend a messianic temple; where there, they do refer to themselves as messianic jews. I should have been more precise. My point is, the poster using the term was not incorrect in her phrasing.

 

Susan

[laughing lioness]

Lisa: I'm just curious, (seriously not trying to debate anybody - and too busy anyway, even if I wanted to), I'm wondering if he was a rabbi first or a Christian first?

!

 

Hi J,

He was Jewish first:). "Fell away" (His words). Alchoholism figured in heavily. Got sober. Ended up in a church (this from a man who says the cross is the most frightening symbol for Jews and who would not even walk on the same road as the large Catholic church where he grew up). Asked God what to do with his life. Wrote a 13 week curriculum, overview of Jewish traditions/ faith, began ministering to other belivers (Jew and Gentil) and became an ordained Rabbi as a result of the congregation growing (he's also an ordained chaplain but I'm not sure under what group).

 

Really cool link on my blog today about the importance of celebrating the Seder (and fits in perfectly with classical ed, too!).

Edited April 18, 2011 by laughing lioness

[Ester Maria]

Hi J, He was Jewish first:). "Fell away" (His words). Alchoholism figured in heavily. Got sober. Ended up in a church (this from a man who says the cross is the most frightening symbol for Jews and who would not even walk on the same road as the large Catholic church where he grew up). Asked God what to do with his life. Wrote a 13 week curriculum, overview of Jewish traditions/ faith, began ministering to other belivers (Jew and Gentil) and became an ordained Rabbi as a result of the congregation growing (he's also an ordained chaplain but I'm not sure under what group).

From what I understand, he was not a rabbi before becoming a Christian - and if he was "ordained as a rabbi" after having become a Christian, that could not have possibly happened at a Jewish institution, which brings me to the question, are you sure he is a rabbi at all, with a proper semicha, rather than just some sort of "leader" of the group of people?

 

Do you know something about his Jewish background (observance-wise, education-wise)? Of course, many people leave for different reasons, but still, it would be interested to see what kind of "base" he has for breaking off.

[Spy Car]

Hi J,

He was Jewish first:). "Fell away" (His words). Alchoholism figured in heavily. Got sober. Ended up in a church (this from a man who says the cross is the most frightening symbol for Jews and who would not even walk on the same road as the large Catholic church where he grew up). Asked God what to do with his life. Wrote a 13 week curriculum, overview of Jewish traditions/ faith, began ministering to other belivers (Jew and Gentil) and became an ordained Rabbi as a result of the congregation growing (he's also an ordained chaplain but I'm not sure under what group).

 

Really cool link on my blog today about the importance of celebrating the Seder (and fits in perfectly with classical ed, too!).

 

So this man does not have a semicha from a Jewish Yeshiva or one bestowed by a Rabbi who practices Judaism?

 

I don't believe you would find an observant Jew anywhere who would accept that this man is a "rabbi" if such is not the case (and it sounds like it's not).

 

The practice of Christian groups ordaining missionaries and calling those missionaries "rabbis" is exactly the problem of expropriation that the OP cautioned against in the post.

 

It takes Chutzpah to do this every Passover.

 

Bill

Edited April 18, 2011 by Spy Car

[laughing lioness]

He did not attend and graduate from Yeshiva but he has gone back and studied under Yeshiva.

My mistake: he does not call himself a Rabbi. He calls himslef Rebbe.

[Spy Car]

He did not attend and graduate from Yeshiva but he has gone back and studied under Yeshiva.

My mistake: he does not call himself a Rabbi. He calls himslef Rebbe.

 

A Jewish Yeshiva (as in one that teaches Judaism)? Or a Christian school that calls itself a "Yeshiva" and compounds the expropriation of the Jewish identity.

 

No Jewish Yeshiva in the world would give a semicha to a person who declared a belief in the fundamentals of Christianity.

 

This is exhausting.

 

Bill

[Ester Maria]

My mistake: he does not call himself a Rabbi. He calls himslef Rebbe.

I cannot help but wonder about a detailed Judaic background of this guy (as in: studied in which yeshiva, after what type of educational formation before that, studied under whom, under what religious and political affilation of yeshiva, studied which texts, for how long exactly, etc.), but that question would be completely out of line of what may be discussed publicly without the person present. So disregard it. But yes, I wonder, as something rubs me as quite "odd" here.

 

This thread is exhausting. Rebbe. They call themselves rebbes, it has got that far... :svengo:

The saddest thing is, this thread makes some of the real rebbes I could care less about look really good and their milieu look like a one in which I might even prefer my children to be, if the alternative is what has been discussed here. LOL.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Spy Car]

My mistake: he does not call himself a Rabbi. He calls himslef Rebbe.

 

So you are aware Lisa the fact that this man calls himself a "Rebbe" only compounds the problem (by a great deal).

 

A "Rebbe" in Judaism (particularly among the Hasadic) is well above an ordinary Rabbi in terms of stature with-in their communities. They are seen as particularly righteous and holy people and leaders that people turn to for both religious and personal advice. They have authority and a mantle of respect far beyond an ordinary Rabbi (who are not slouches themselves).

 

It is true that sometimes a student will refer to a teacher as "Rebbe" as a sign of respect for that teacher. But an ordinary teacher would not call himself "Rebbe" as that would be a very serious breach of custom.

 

It makes me think this man is not well informed about Judaism.

 

Bill

[historymatters]

I'm not sure if what I wrote caused offense. I'm trying to keep up. If it did I apologize. I thought 'Messianic Christian is what the Christians that have departed from Protestantism to celebrate 'biblical' holidays call themselves. ETA: And they for the most part are were not Jewish to begin with.

 

Just taking a quick breather from standing to address this so we can go into tonight without anything "hanging out there".

 

I am absolutely not offended and I appreciate your sensitivity.

 

There's a difference in the terminology which is distinctive and bears some explanation; Messianic Judaism has been/is a Jewish led movement, not a gentile one, as the Christian church was/is (well, from about the 2nd cen. on); however, I am trying to keep my mind focused on HaShem and am trying not to pulled away from the importance of this night and this week.

 

So I'll look forward to meeting up again Wed. with a more thorough explanation!

 

Shalom and be Blessed!

 

Rachel :001_smile:

[laughing lioness]

So you are aware Lisa the fact that this man calls himself a "Rebbe" only compounds the problem (by a great deal).

 

A "Rebbe" in Judaism (particularly among the Hasadic) is well above an ordinary Rabbi in terms of stature with-in their communities. They are seen as particularly righteous and holy people and leaders that people turn to for both religious and personal advice. They have authority and a mantle of respect far beyond an ordinary Rabbi (who are not slouches themselves).

 

It is true that sometimes a student will refer to a teacher as "Rebbe" as a sign of respect for that teacher. But an ordinary teacher would not call himself "Rebbe" as that would be a very serious breach of custom.

 

It makes me think this man is not well informed about Judaism.

 

Bill

 

 

Actually, I think he is well informed about Judaism as he was raised in it. But I am not sure of all the terminology/ spelling, etc. And I did miss a portion of what he was saying yesterday, so this might all be my miss spelling/speaking for him.

 

Not trying to confuse the issue. Seriously. My main point being that he (my Jewish by ancestory friend) calls himself a Jewish beliver.

[Mrs Twain]

I think all of you should read Isaiah 53. It is the part that starts with, "Who has believed our message..."

[Karis]

I think all of you should read Isaiah 53. It is the part that starts with, "Who has believed our message..."

 

 

;)

 

Obviously, there are those that ignore this.

[Spy Car]

;)

 

Obviously, there are those that ignore this.

 

Obviously there are those who wish they could ignore this :glare:

 

The orthodox Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53 is that the "servant of God" refers to the people of Israel.

 

Why do those who do not follow Judaism or have a sincere desire to understand how Jews celebrate their faith have a need to proselytize in threads about Passover?

 

It is a terribly disrespectful way to treat the members of this forum who practice Judaism.

 

Bill

[justamouse]

I think all of you should read Isaiah 53. It is the part that starts with, "Who has believed our message..."

 

;)

 

Obviously, there are those that ignore this.

 

That's really insulting to Jewish people, to assume they should believe Jesus is the Messiah because of Isaiah 53?

 

Thanks Bill for the Jewish interpretation.

 

 

You know, it's really easy for Protestant religions, who have a relatively short history thus far, to assume that all other religions just so easy to understand. You cannot assume such. You do a disservice to yourselves, and to the people you are speaking about.

Edited April 18, 2011 by justamouse

[Mrs Twain]

 

The orthodox Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53 is that the "servant of God" refers to the people of Israel.

 

Bill

 

Verse 8 says that "He was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people, to whom the strike was due"

 

If (as you say) the "He" in this passage refers to the people of Israel, then to whom does the "my people" refer?

 

Anyway, you really think that Jews have borne the Gentiles grief, carried our sorrows, been pierced for our transgressions, been crushed for our iniquities, been chastened for our well-being, been scourged for our healing, been rendered as a guilt offering, and borne our iniquities and sin. Really?

[Mrs Twain]

Besides Isaiah 53, I know a lot of other passages that are good to read at Passover for whomever is interested.

[justamouse]

Verse 8 says that "He was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people, to whom the strike was due"

 

If (as you say) the "He" in this passage refers to the people of Israel, then to whom does the "my people" refer?

 

Anyway, you really think that Jews have borne the Gentiles grief, carried our sorrows, been pierced for our transgressions, been crushed for our iniquities, been chastened for our well-being, been scourged for our healing, been rendered as a guilt offering, and borne our iniquities and sin. Really?

 

It doesn't matter what Bill thinks. What matters is how it is offensive to Jewish people when Christians come in and hijack their holidays and the meanings of the the Old Testament prophets when their tradition has had a particular interpretation for thousands of years.

 

They're not going to go, "Oh, so THAT's what it means! I need to become a Christian!"

 

It's disrespectful.

[Spy Car]

Verse 8 says that "He was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people, to whom the strike was due"

 

If (as you say) the "He" in this passage refers to the people of Israel, then to whom does the "my people" refer?

 

Anyway, you really think that Jews have borne the Gentiles grief, carried our sorrows, been pierced for our transgressions, been crushed for our iniquities, been chastened for our well-being, been scourged for our healing, been rendered as a guilt offering, and borne our iniquities and sin. Really?

 

This is a highly inappropriate violation of board rules in addition to being a very rude way to treat other peoples sacred holidays.

 

Not cool!

 

Bill

Edited April 19, 2011 by Spy Car

[Mrs Twain]

All I did was to suggest people read some of the Hebrew prophets' writing and ask a couple of questions about your interpretation. I can't understand how that breaks any rules. I would think it is a positive thing for people to read the Hebrew prophets' writing.

[micheller1]

what a terrible way for Jennifer's very thoughtful thread about a wonderful holiday to end.

 

Very Rude, MrsTwain.

 

I applaud you Bill - you are a wise man :grouphug:

 

Chag Passover Sameach!!

[simka2]

I just wanted to say, "Thanks!" This has been a wonderful thread and I have gleaned many insights into Judaism and the Jewish culture. There is a depth and breadth that I was not aware of (still am not, but I at least see the tip of the iceberg ;))

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

It doesn't matter what Bill thinks. What matters is how it is offensive to Jewish people when Christians come in and hijack their holidays and the meanings of the the Old Testament prophets when their tradition has had a particular interpretation for thousands of years.

 

They're not going to go, "Oh, so THAT's what it means! I need to become a Christian!"

 

It's disrespectful.

 

Yes it is incredibly disrespectful and lacking humility

 

Another thought: It occurred to me in the depths of my scrubbing today that some of the people who are most vehement about their right to claim Jewish festivals and cultural celebrations might also be vehemently against those who seek to appropriate Christian celebrations like Christmas and Easter, whether to secularize them or to superimpose meanings which dilute the unique nature of the festival (ie, Easter isn't simply a "spring holiday" and Christmas isn't primarily a "universal gift-giving holiday"). I've heard Christians adamantly defend the "reason for the season" and I'm wondering if Jews may indeed have the same right with respect to our God-given festivals.

I had the same thought. We think alike in many ways:)

 

This thread has been educational to me in many ways. I've been studying the Old Testament this year. I've been learning how Judaism affected Christianity. While I've found the symbolic connections between OT events (like Passover in Exodus) and NT events fascinating, I do not feel the need to celebrate Passover or to come in this thread and proselytize. It is a sacred Jewish holiday. I'm not Jewish, I'm Catholic. The early Christians transitioned from celebrating Jewish holidays to Christian holidays. It only makes sense with the Gentiles coming in. I do get very upset at people that celebrate Christmas without any connection to the Nativity and Christianity (and Easter, St. Valentine's Day, St. Patirck's day, etc....) I will teach my children about Passover and how it applies to our faith. I won't try to overtake it from the Jews.

 

Thank you to those that taught me so much this week!!!!!!

[missiemick]

I'm so disappointed at how this thread has turned out. It seems that Jay3fer was offering resources for people that might be interested in them -- but it's turned into a huge debate. Maybe people that are so offended by people with a "Messianic" faith need to do a spin-off and keep their rant there. IMHO, people that more closely identify with "Messianic" don't do it lightly and I highly doubt that this debate is going to change their minds.

[justamouse]

I'm so disappointed at how this thread has turned out. It seems that Jay3fer was offering resources for people that might be interested in them -- but it's turned into a huge debate. Maybe people that are so offended by people with a "Messianic" faith need to do a spin-off and keep their rant there. IMHO, people that more closely identify with "Messianic" don't do it lightly and I highly doubt that this debate is going to change their minds.

 

Coming onto a thread about a Jewish Holiday and and having a Messianic Christian correcting a Jewish person is the offensive part.

 

That's like Me trying to tell a Hindi how to be a better Hindi.

[susankenny]

Coming onto a thread about a Jewish Holiday and and having a Messianic Christian correcting a Jewish person is the offensive part.

 

That's like Me trying to tell a Hindi how to be a better Hindi.

 

I agree. But the OP did share a blog link that blasted christians for celebrating a jewish holiday. I'm Chrisitan, & I do not celebrate passover at all. We celebrate Lent & Easter. However, I'm sure she knew by sharing that link & specifically saying, "if you are Christian and wanting to incorporate messianic elements, please read" that it was going to open up a discussion. Anyway. It's been a very educational and informative thread. I've enjoyed it just the same & have learned a lot.

 

Susan

[Rivka]

Coming onto a thread about a Jewish Holiday and and having a Messianic Christian correcting a Jewish person is the offensive part.

 

That's like Me trying to tell a Hindi how to be a better Hindi.

 

:iagree:

I wasn't really posting in this thread to "change the minds" of Messianic Jews or Jews for Jesus or whatever other obfuscating names people adopt in an attempt to prove that Christians can be Jewish. I was posting to support the OP and to help keep onlookers from the mistaken impression that "Messianic" beliefs are consistent with Judaism.

 

Seriously, on the WTM boards it seems like the majority of people who identify as "Jewish" are actually Christian. I think that's very confusing to people who merely want to educate themselves and their children about Judaism.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

I agree. But the OP did share a blog link that blasted christians for celebrating a jewish holiday. I'm Chrisitan, & I do not celebrate passover at all. We celebrate Lent & Easter. However, I'm sure she knew by sharing that link & specifically saying, "if you are Christian and wanting to incorporate messianic elements, please read" that it was going to open up a discussion. Anyway. It's been a very educational and informative thread. I've enjoyed it just the same & have learned a lot.

 

Susan

I thought her blog post was great. However, I didn't find the need to comment on it here. I commented on her blog.

[Ester Maria]

(Nevermind.)

Edited April 19, 2011 by Ester Maria
Hamevin yavin, and who am I kidding with posting links to stuff in Hebrew

[laughing lioness]

What matters is how it is offensive to Jewish people when Christians come in and hijack their holidays and the meanings of the the Old Testament prophets when their tradition has had a particular interpretation for thousands of years.

.

 

As a Christian, participating in O.T. celebrations and holidays is hardly hijaking anything as the person, Jesus, that I follow, is Jewish and came to fulfill the laws.

 

80% or so of the N.T. is the O.T. and to fully understand the Gospel message means to understand the customs and traditions of the Jewish ceremonies. No hijaking involved.

[Spy Car]

Hamevin yavin? Hamevin yavin?

 

Is that Hebrew for "she who has a working keyboard may not use it to best effect?"

 

I'm sure those who understand will understand.

 

Bill

[Ester Maria]

Hamevin yavin? Hamevin yavin?

 

Is that Hebrew for "she who has a working keyboard may not use it to best effect?"

Hi Bill, I was frustrated, so I edited the post.

 

However, why not, I linked to this (pp. 94-162, much of it irrelevant though, but the chapter is concerning Isaiah), and to a couple of other articles whose links I did not save, but I think one of them was this, with parallel verses and explanation. None of the sources are hardcore theology, but rather articles and a book written for the ordinary men. And I quoted this shu''t as a sort of disclaimer:

הבה נניח שאין הרבנים יודעים כיצד להסביר פרק זה (דבר שאינו נכון) – מההקשר בינו לבין האיש הנוצרי ? האם העובדה שלא יודעים להסביר היטב את הפרק העוסקבעבד ד´ מוכיחה דבר מה על כך שהפיתרון הנוצרי הוא הנכון ? ממתי שאלה שלא יודעים איךלענות עליה הופכת להוכחה כי דבר מופרך הטוען שהוא כן יודע לענות – הוא נכון ?

So, later I decided to edit the post because it seemed a bit "passive aggressive" to me - you know, a sort of "here's your answer, but I'm actually 'testing' you to see whether you can even read the language whose texts and culture we discuss, especially if you claim to belong to that culture or if you - what seemed to me patronizingly - call others to read a certain passage or imply that they ignore it". So see, I thought that was a bit rude, though at that time it seemed totally 'deserved' to me, because I would have bet that those people do not read Hebrew (or hide the fact they do really, really well), which in itself would pretty much "disqualify" them from any meaningful Judaic discussion anyway, as an 'equal' partner that is. So, not that I expect of anyone to actually bother to skim through those links, but for the sake of potential readers...

 

Don't get me wrong, I love when people want to learn and would never pose such "prerequisites" to discuss something with me if there is a genuine interest from the other side, but the direction into which that was going (from 'hints' about DNA to 'hints' about ignored passages) was just appalling.

Edited April 20, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Ester Maria]

I'm so disappointed at how this thread has turned out. It seems that Jay3fer was offering resources for people that might be interested in them -- but it's turned into a huge debate. Maybe people that are so offended by people with a "Messianic" faith need to do a spin-off and keep their rant there. IMHO, people that more closely identify with "Messianic" don't do it lightly and I highly doubt that this debate is going to change their minds.

How about the opposite? I do not wish to sound rude, really, but how about Christians "hijacking" a thread which was meant to educate people about Jewish holidays on Jewish terms, rather than on other terms which they force into the discussion, opening their own spin-off? As far as I am concerned, everybody is welcome as long as they respectfully want to learn, but what is going on here right not does not seem to be "wanting to learn about Judaism on its own terms".

 

The reason why some of us do argue with them for now has more to do with potential readers than with them, as sometimes it is a bit dangerous to leave some 'dangerous' claims unanswered, as it might be viewed as a sort of tacit approval, especially if you have already engaged in the thread. I am certainly not trying to change their minds, but I find it important to present what would be more or less a mainstream Jewish take on some of the things they claim. As much as I disgree with them, note that I do 'allow' everyone to celebrate whatever they want in whichever non-violent fashion they want, oppose any violence which might come from the Jewish side towards those people (and yes, like Rachel said, there were instances in Israel), etc.

[Violet Crown]

Jay3fer, I didn't see this among your links, but a little friend of mine had this last night, and it looked really fun. There was also a song about the ten plagues put to the music of "This Old Man," which is one of the oddest things I've ever heard, but I don't have a link to it.

 

I am so glad I only live a few blocks away. I wasn't sure I'd make it home last night. And for some reason my head is unpleasantly throbbing this morning.

[Spy Car]

Hi Bill, I was frustrated, so I edited the post.

 

 

Yea, I read the original post. I definitely appreciate the source of your frustration. I'm truly sorry about that.

 

Bill

[Karis]

OOps!!

 

I read through this thread again. AND I want to apologize for something I did somewhat mindlessly. (It happens.)

 

I thought the quote referenced Isaiah 56!! Which supports my first statement and was directly related to the original post.

 

Just wanted to clarify.

 

Isaiah 56:1-8

Edited April 21, 2011 by Karis
clarity

[Jay3fer]

Hi J,

He was Jewish first:). "Fell away" (His words). Alchoholism figured in heavily. Got sober. Ended up in a church... became an ordained Rabbi as a result of the congregation growing (he's also an ordained chaplain but I'm not sure under what group).

 

Really cool link on my blog today about the importance of celebrating the Seder (and fits in perfectly with classical ed, too!).

 

@Lisa: Just checking back in the midst of the craziness. Thank you for the link. Aish does good videos; I'll have to watch this one thoroughly (in my spare time... :lol:).

 

This may shock some on here, but as a Jew, I'd rather see a Jew get healthy and sober and perhaps (as a result) end up in another monotheistic faith such as Christianity than see that same Jew still Jewish but drinking or (God forbid) dead. In my mind, as a person with a close family member struggling with alcoholism, this is a happy ending.

 

I would question his "rabbinic" credentials only because those must be passed along by another rabbi, but I am happy that his journey has proved inspiring to others.

[Jay3fer]

I would think those who embrace Judaism would not care about someone else celebrating other holidays. They would simply say "As for me and my house..."

 

@Karis:

I care because Christians have shared their pain at others' misinterpretations of the season - and at bland, meaningless but inclusive "seasonal" celebrations stripped of any Christian symbols so as not to offend anyone (except maybe Christians)

 

And "As for me and my house" is fine, as long as others don't keep insisting on inviting themselves into my house. :001_huh:

 

This may sound hopelessly naive, but please know that I really did begin this thread with the dual intention of "tribe-finding" ie exchanging resources and tips with other Jewish homeschoolers - and discovering resources from any source (Jewish or otherwise) that might be useful in my Jewish homeschool.

 

As an amateur philosopher (My BA is in philosophy, but anything short of a PhD is an amateur!), the religion side of it fascinates me, but the practical side is all about my kids and how to help them experience and be amazed by this wonderful festival.

 

I have learned a lot from the Jews and non-Jews here, and hope we can continue to learn from each other in peace.:seeya:

[historymatters]

@Karis:

...exchanging resources and tips with other Jewish homeschoolers - and discovering resources from any source (Jewish or otherwise) that might be useful in my Jewish homeschool.

 

 

:iagree:

I have this attitude regarding my homeschooling as well. There are only a few HSl'ers in my shul's Congregation, the Rabbi's family being of them, so that's helpful! However, I like to inquire here as well for resources; besides I'm sort of a resource/catalog addict anyway.

My husband's grandparents were murdered in Nazi Germany, then their son, his father, was transported around from family to family, finally landing in America, becoming an angry and secular man; so therefore, my husband has no family teachings or resources passed down to him that he can pass down to use in our training of our children. :sad: So I'm not only building up a library for us to use, but for them to use with their own.

 

BTW, do you have any materials or traditions for Counting the Omer, besides the Blessing and actual nightly counting? A way to make it more "visual"? Just sitting around last night and wondering (while awaiting my dd to settle down after her chocolate seder :D).

 

Since we're almost finished with Seymour Rossel's children's history series, I've been putting together a chronological listing of (mostly) Jewish history resources, mainly in the form of historical fiction, but bios, too. I like to lay out a scope and sequence for our subjects.

 

When I get it all together, would you like for me to share it?

 

 

Rachel

[Karis]

@Karis:

 

And "As for me and my house" is fine, as long as others don't keep insisting on inviting themselves into my house. :001_huh:

 

.:seeya:

 

 

I don't understand.

What does this mean?

 

Why would someone invite themselves to someone else's house and intentionally do something to offend the people living there? I don't believe people mean to offend maybe they just don't know what's "proper." In that case some training in etiquette is necessary.

 

You can't say "The doors are open." Then complain about who shows up.

 

How does someone invite themselves to someone else's home?

 

Other than some family members, of course. ;) or your children's friends. But your child brought them home with them in the first place. and now these people feel welcome and quite at home.

If there are house rules, that you don't articulate, you are the one at fault. If you are simply not inclined to be hospitable. Say so, These people will go where they feel welcomed. Just accept that your name will be "mud" and you, yourself, will have shown/ proven yourself to be "ungracious". ha ha

 

I have put folks out of my house for saying crazy stuff. Maybe I'm just not that gracious.

 

"As for me and my house..." applies to what folks do in their own house with their own family.

 

Anyone in an environment with people doing things they do not do can simply say... "I'll pass"... or "bean dip, anyone?"