helena Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 I've pulled out all our history books today, to do a bit of spring cleaning. I'm putting them in chronological order by the year they took place. As I look up most of the books on Native Americans I'm noticing that most of them have the 1 or 2 star racist reviews. I knew I had a few in my collection that I was on the fence about, but it seems like so many are not worth my time or money. I also know that part of the problem is that I love old vintage type books. That doesn't always translate well for history. I'm dreading looking up a Holling C. Holling book on NAs which I recently picked up at a book sale (and a few other beautiful vintage books on the subject). I'm looking for a company, author, book, or series, to work on this part of our book collection. I'm looking for 5th grade and up reading material. We've enjoyed books like Naya Nuki in the past, and have started collecting Kenneth Thomasma books. Thanks :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali in OR Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 We've enjoyed books like Naya Nuki in the past, and have started collecting Kenneth Thomasma books. Thanks :001_smile: That's just who I was going to suggest! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satori Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 We love The Birchbark House by Louise Erdrich. It's the first of a set of 3 books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Here is a link to a web-site called Oyate that is run by Native Americans that lists both "books to avoid" (and why) and, if you look under "Catalogue", has a list of recommended books by ages. I can not speak to their choices, but I am aware they are a resourse for parents such as yourself who are looking for non-racist depictions of Native Americans in children's books. http://www.oyate.org/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=173&category_id=8&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=97 Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 A really great resource is the website of children's/YA author Cynthia Leitich Smith. She is Native American and has extensive suggestions and commentary. Here's the intro to her "native themes" section, but poke around. Joseph Bruchac is one author whom I know is Native American himself, gets great reviews, and is very prolific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 We will be reading this shortly, too, and it's a favorite. I see that it's also on the list Spy Car recommended. Also on their list, any book by Joseph Bruchac is terrific. My son just finished Arrow Over the Door and we read Pocahontas earlier in the year. We're reading Sacajawea right now, too.... Other's I see on their list that we own or have read: 1621: A New Look at Thanksgiving Building an Igloo Giving Thanks, Jake Swamp Sequoyah, James Rumford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted April 6, 2011 Author Share Posted April 6, 2011 That's just who I was going to suggest! If his other books are as good as Naya Nuki, I'll be happy! The girls still talk about that one. We love The Birchbark House by Louise Erdrich. It's the first of a set of 3 books. Yay! I found this on one of our shelves. :001_smile: I'm going to start a list to take with me to the library book store across the street. There's a lot of homeschoolers in our area, and I'm sure this series will show up. Thanks- PS: I just did my first multi quote response :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted April 6, 2011 Author Share Posted April 6, 2011 Here is a link to a web-site called Oyate that is run by Native Americans that lists both "books to avoid" (and why) and, if you look under "Catalogue", has a list of recommended books by ages. I can not speak to their choices, but I am aware they are a resourse for parents such as yourself who are looking for non-racist depictions of Native Americans in children's books. http://www.oyate.org/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=173&category_id=8&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=97 Bill Thanks Bill, this is exactly the kind of list I want to look through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted April 6, 2011 Author Share Posted April 6, 2011 A really great resource is the website of children's/YA author Cynthia Leitich Smith. She is Native American and has extensive suggestions and commentary. Here's the intro to her "native themes" section, but poke around. Joseph Bruchac is one author whom I know is Native American himself, gets great reviews, and is very prolific. We will be reading this shortly, too, and it's a favorite. I see that it's also on the list Spy Car recommended. Also on their list, any book by Joseph Bruchac is terrific. My son just finished Arrow Over the Door and we read Pocahontas earlier in the year. We're reading Sacajawea right now, too.... Other's I see on their list that we own or have read: 1621: A New Look at Thanksgiving Building an Igloo Giving Thanks, Jake Swamp Sequoyah, James Rumford Thanks.. adding to the list! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) Here's another resource http://americanindiansinchildrensliterature.blogspot.com/ On the side are links to further resources (authors, publishers, etc) that might provide more clues I'd be interested in your views of the Holling C Holling book. Edited April 7, 2011 by stripe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerdingCats Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I second The Birchbark House! Oh, that was a wonderful book to read aloud. Also the Scott O'Dell books, The Island of the Blue Dolphins, and Zia(?) are great reads. It's also good, in my opinion, to occasionally share books with those points of view as a teaching tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalmia Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I second anything by Joseph Bruchac! If you are this along with your history studies you may want to incorporate some of the speeches in this book:Great Speeches by Native Americans, edited by Bob Blaisedell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 I second anything by Joseph Bruchac! If you are this along with your history studies you may want to incorporate some of the speeches in this book:Great Speeches by Native Americans, edited by Bob Blaisedell. :D I just pulled this off our shelf! I picked it up at the gift shop at Monticello. I must have tucked it away on our history shelf, I forgot we even had it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 I second The Birchbark House! Oh, that was a wonderful book to read aloud. Also the Scott O'Dell books, The Island of the Blue Dolphins, and Zia(?) are great reads. It's also good, in my opinion, to occasionally share books with those points of view as a teaching tool. Ah! I had these on our regular chapter book shelves. I have Island of the Blue Dolphin and Black Star, Bright Dawn. I've seen Zia on the $.25 cart at our library book store, I'll keep my eyes out for it, and other O'Dell books. I'm glad I took the time to catalogue my books on Delicious Library. I'm starting to see how it pays off. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tammyw Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) I have a question about The Little House on the Prairie books - those to me are definitely racist, but we still read and love them. However, we've had many discussions about that racism, whenever we encounter it. I wonder if others feel the same way about those books and how they handle it? I ask, because I know these are a popular set of books. Edited April 7, 2011 by tammyw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 I have a question about The Little House on the Prairie books - those to me are definitely racist, but we still read them. However, we've had many discussions about that racism, whenever we encounter it. I wonder if others feel the same way about those books and how they handle it? I ask, because I know these are a popular set of books. I can relate. We just read a chapter from Holling C Holling's Tree in the Trail in which the words injun and squaw were used. It's used in dialogue between two guys who worked the wagon trails. We talked about the words and why they're not used anymore. Here's an interesting piece on the word squaw: http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/squaw.html Sometimes my head spins trying to understand words and their usage. In cases like author Holling C Holling, I look at his collective work (in awe), and I really hope his language is a reflection of his times, and not one of racism. I tend to think that he and his wife's dedication to making such beautiful books is a sure sign to his hopefully beautiful heart. But sadly the world is also full of condescending, disappointing, pigs... The girls and I often come across interesting words... like negro, is it bad? What about Langston Hughes, The Negro Speaks of Rivers. I guess I'm just talking about the words, about context, about how powerful language is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenn1129 Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I second anything by Joseph Bruchac! If you are this along with your history studies you may want to incorporate some of the speeches in this book:Great Speeches by Native Americans, edited by Bob Blaisedell. FYI. Great Speeches is $2.50 at amazon w/ free prime shipping. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 The girls and I often come across interesting words... like negro, is it bad? What about Langston Hughes, The Negro Speaks of Rivers. I guess I'm just talking about the words, about context, about how powerful language is. I don't think negro was bad when it was used. My impression is that it was the nice way of talking! I do think it's not normal for use today by my children, though. And speaking of Holling, my understanding is there's someone speaking in black "dialect" in one of those books (Minn?). I think there are multiple issues with Little House. One is the racism. Two is the fictionalization. How old one may want their children to be when they tackle them is another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 And speaking of Holling, my understanding is there's someone speaking in black "dialect" in one of those books (Minn?). But does that make it racist? If it does, why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 But does that make it racist? If it does, why? I only mentioned it in passing because you were wondering about racial issues in Holling's books. I haven't seen his books on Indians. I recommend the website on Native Americans in children's lit I listed earlier as the blog author is pretty comprehensive with her commentary and her links. I am not a fan of black dialect (what's with the "wuz" and "iz" -- how do white people say these? "wass"? "iss"?), but I am not sure it makes it racist. It might just make it ... lame? I think it's the sudden appearance of random black people doing stereotypical/offensive things (eating a watermelon, sleeping under a tree, whatever) that are objectionable to some people. I recommend this truly comprehensive book if you're interested: African and African American images in Newbery Award winning titles : progress in portrayals / Binnie Tate Wilkin . She has a fairly exhaustive chronicle of every black character or image in Newbery award and honor books. She details how random some of the black references or characters are! I suspect the same is true for Native Americans. (You can also read A Study of Black Characters in Caldecott and Newbery Award and Honor Books for Children, by Doris Christine Gary (her 1984 dissertation) from ERIC's website.) However I don't want to derail your thread about NA chapter books. Michael Dorris has written Morning Girl and Guests, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my2boysteacher Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Anything by Helen Rountree or Joseph Bruchac. Also, two really good movies we found: Nightmare in Jamestown, and Pocahontas Revealed. Here is another good Pocahontas resource, although I wouldn't recommend it for young kids, but maybe high school. I read it and talk about it with my kids, as it provides pretty conflicting information to what most books say happened to Pocahontas. The True Story of Pocahontas: The Other Side of History Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In the Rain Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) Some of these titles look really interesting. Edited April 7, 2011 by Julianna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) I happened to be flipping through a Nesbit book I picked up at a book sale -- The New Treasure Seekers -- and saw the term "n --" in the chapter "Archibald the Unpleasant" (quotes from Gutenberg): Then Noël sang out over the stairs, "Light up!" and Jane went round with a taper, and when the landing gas was lighted Noël turned the knob of the bath-room, and Archibald exited in his Indian red and yellow dressing-gown that he thought so much of. Of course we expected his face to be red with rage, or white with passion, or purple with mixed emotions, but you cannot think what our feelings were—indeed, we hardly knew what they were ourselves—when we saw that he was not red or white or purple, but black. He looked like an uneven sort of bluish nigger.While trying to find this quote I saw this from the chapter just before:We washed our faces and hands and had a first rate muffin and crumpet tea, with slices of cold meats, and many nice jams and cakes. A lot of other people were there, most of them people who were giving the entertainment to the aged poor. After tea it was the entertainment. Songs and conjuring and a play called "Box and Cox," very amusing, and a lot of throwing things about in it—bacon and chops and things—and nigger minstrels. We clapped till our hands were sore. Ah yes, those were the good old days, weren't they? Now let's put on a feathered headdress and play Indian for part 2 of of program, "Getting to Know Other Cultures." Part 3 (for those who are impatient) will be about gypsies. There was anti-Japanese propaganda and discrimination prior to WWII, btw. I'd just like to say that I have a personal pet peeve about discussions about racism that assume everyone involved is white, and can discuss racism in a dispassionate way, about being nice to those people and not calling them names. These discussions rarely assume that the parent or child involved actually are of the ethnic group being spoken of in this fashion. That is why some of the essays written by Native Americans themselves about how it felt to them to read racist depictions when they were kids is quite helpful. There are a not-very-small number of us on this board who have children who are not "white." It is a different issue to deal with words that are an assault upon the child directly. Edited April 7, 2011 by stripe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 I only mentioned it in passing because you were wondering about racial issues in Holling's books. I haven't seen his books on Indians. I recommend the website on Native Americans in children's lit I listed earlier as the blog author is pretty comprehensive with her commentary and her links. I am not a fan of black dialect (what's with the "wuz" and "iz" -- how do white people say these? "wass"? "iss"?), but I am not sure it makes it racist. It might just make it ... lame? I think it's the sudden appearance of random black people doing stereotypical/offensive things (eating a watermelon, sleeping under a tree, whatever) that are objectionable to some people. I recommend this truly comprehensive book if you're interested: African and African American images in Newbery Award winning titles : progress in portrayals / Binnie Tate Wilkin . She has a fairly exhaustive chronicle of every black character or image in Newbery award and honor books. She details how random some of the black references or characters are! I suspect the same is true for Native Americans. (You can also read A Study of Black Characters in Caldecott and Newbery Award and Honor Books for Children, by Doris Christine Gary (her 1984 dissertation) from ERIC's website.) However I don't want to derail your thread about NA chapter books. Michael Dorris has written Morning Girl and Guests, too. Not derailing at all. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 Anything by Helen Rountree or Joseph Bruchac.Also, two really good movies we found: Nightmare in Jamestown, and Pocahontas Revealed. Here is another good Pocahontas resource, although I wouldn't recommend it for young kids, but maybe high school. I read it and talk about it with my kids, as it provides pretty conflicting information to what most books say happened to Pocahontas. The True Story of Pocahontas: The Other Side of History The book looks interesting (adding to list). I need to start buying high school level books soon, thanks for the rec. This reminds me that I ought to go look in our own personal library here at home. :auto: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 I happened to be flipping through a Nesbit book I picked up at a book sale -- The New Treasure Seekers -- and saw the term "n --" in the chapter "Archibald the Unpleasant" (quotes from Gutenberg):While trying to find this quote I saw this from the chapter just before: Ah yes, those were the good old days, weren't they? Now let's put on a feathered headdress and play Indian for part 2 of of program, "Getting to Know Other Cultures." Part 3 (for those who are impatient) will be about gypsies. There was anti-Japanese propaganda and discrimination prior to WWII, btw. I'd just like to say that I have a personal pet peeve about discussions about racism that assume everyone involved is white, and can discuss racism in a dispassionate way, about being nice to those people and not calling them names. These discussions rarely assume that the parent or child involved actually are of the ethnic group being spoken of in this fashion. That is why some of the essays written by Native Americans themselves about how it felt to them to read racist depictions when they were kids is quite helpful. There are a not-very-small number of us on this board who have children who are not "white." It is a different issue to deal with words that are an assault upon the child directly. Hmm.. I have that Nesbit book too. :glare: Unfortunately, I'm on only a few hours of sleep here, so I'm having a very hard time formulating thoughts (blast this flu in my house). I understand what you're saying though. Race is an itchy scratchy subject for me. I'm Mexican and Irish, and the race thing has been shoved in my face my whole life. I do believe I've heard it all. My personal opinions are a bit on the harsh side. I guess that's why I want to keep my focus on collecting books that are clearly not racist. I don't mind dealing with and even enjoying books that have words or phrases which are now unacceptable. But, I'd like to keep them out of history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In the Rain Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) I'd just like to say that I have a personal pet peeve about discussions about racism that assume everyone involved is white, and can discuss racism in a dispassionate way, about being nice to those people and not calling them names. These discussions rarely assume that the parent or child involved actually are of the ethnic group being spoken of in this fashion. That is why some of the essays written by Native Americans themselves about how it felt to them to read racist depictions when they were kids is quite helpful. There are a not-very-small number of us on this board who have children who are not "white." It is a different issue to deal with words that are an assault upon the child directly. I understand what you are saying. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone or be insensitive. :001_huh: FWIW, the discussions with my children don't exactly fit the description of what I bolded. They are usually more about the ignorance, misunderstanding, or sheer mean spiritedness behind the terms or treatments of others. Being nice to others isn't really the issue. I haven't read The Treasure Seekers, but the excerpts you posted are terrible. Edited April 7, 2011 by Julianna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I guess that's why I want to keep my focus on collecting books that are clearly not racist. I don't mind dealing with and even enjoying books that have words or phrases which are now unacceptable. But, I'd like to keep them out of history. I'm very interested in finding good NA chapter books too, so I'm looking forward to other good suggestions. I appreciate all the ideas so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 I understand what you are saying. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone or be insensitive. :001_huh: FWIW, the discussions with my children don't exactly fit the description of what I bolded. They are usually more about the ignorance, misunderstanding, or sheer mean spiritedness behind the terms or treatments of others. Being nice to others isn't really the issue. I haven't read The Treasure Seekers, but the excerpts you posted are terrible. I must have missed something? :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dreese.nambe Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Hello, A colleague wrote to let me know you were discussing Thomasma books here on The Well-Trained Mind. And, one of the people in this discussion pointed to my website, American Indians in Children's Literature. A colleague wrote an extensive review of the Thomasma series, and I've published that review on my site here: http://americanindiansinchildrensliterature.blogspot.com/2007/05/kenneth-thomasmas-books-casting-call-is.html I think it is terrific you're looking for books that aren't racist (I'll hasten to add that I generally don't use that word because it puts people on the defensive, and too often shuts down conversations rather than creating space to engage in difficult conversations). Please do visit my site and if you've got questions, let me know. Information about my site, and about me, is in the "About AICL" link in my navigation bar. I've been a reviewer for Horn Book Magazine and Horn Book Guide. I've published articles in Horn Book Magazine, and in School Library Journal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyD Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 I have nothing useful to add but just wanted to say thanks to those who posted resources. This is all extremely useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 Hello, A colleague wrote to let me know you were discussing Thomasma books here on The Well-Trained Mind. And, one of the people in this discussion pointed to my website, American Indians in Children's Literature. A colleague wrote an extensive review of the Thomasma series, and I've published that review on my site here: http://americanindiansinchildrensliterature.blogspot.com/2007/05/kenneth-thomasmas-books-casting-call-is.html I think it is terrific you're looking for books that aren't racist (I'll hasten to add that I generally don't use that word because it puts people on the defensive, and too often shuts down conversations rather than creating space to engage in difficult conversations). Please do visit my site and if you've got questions, let me know. Information about my site, and about me, is in the "About AICL" link in my navigation bar. I've been a reviewer for Horn Book Magazine and Horn Book Guide. I've published articles in Horn Book Magazine, and in School Library Journal. Right on! Thanks for taking the time to respond here. I totally get what your saying, though maybe we don't always come to the same conclusion. My husband and I started talking about this over dinner, and the concept of "Orientalism" came up, (we're Muslim). The truth is, this is a reality for many people and cultures. Like Dovie Thomason's review on your blog asks: "Can an outsider enter a community, speak with a few people and then understand enough to be the legitimate voice of it's children?". It's not just the voice of children, but can be the voice of whole peoples, their values, their faith, their essence. Would if they don't spend a little time getting to know the culture, would if they spend years, or a life time? Can anyone ever get to that place where their input into a a culture not their own is on the same level as someone native to that culture? If not on the same level, then to a place that's valuable to those people? As I'm working on organizing my bookshelves (who started that spring cleaning thread?? :glare::tongue_smilie:), I found a cool book I had bought called Warriors, Navajo Code Talkers. What was so interesting about the book was that the photographs (which is what the book mostly consists of), were taken by a Japanese man, Kenji Kawano. Who would have thought!! I find it encouraging! You never know where love, respect, and brotherhood.. sisterhood ;) can spring up. Please tell me this book isn't on your nay list.:D Sorry, I'm feeling very glibbity glop right now, I'm not sure I should be typing tonight.. there seems to be a few words I'm misspelling (according to the red lines under many of my typed words :lol:). I'm off to find Edward Said's Orientalism on my shelf now.. for another day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dreese.nambe Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 I don't have that book. From what I was able to see on the Amazon "look inside" function, the photos are great. People shown in them are named, with personal names. I'd really have to see the book to know for sure, but what I'd look for is: verb tense --- When speaking of contemporary Native people, verb tense should be present, not past. biased/incorrect use of words --- Warrior is similar to soldier, but it often gets used as THE word for a Native man. Same with "chief." In a work of historical fiction about war between Native Nations who were defending their homelands, parents, grandparents, children, etc., men engaged in that war on either side should correctly all be called soldiers, or, warriors. When an author calls the not-Native men "soldiers" and calls the Native men "warriors" the author inadvertently creates a difference in the mind of the reader that creates and affirms Indian people as "other" to white people. Debbie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 biased/incorrect use of words --- Warrior is similar to soldier, but it often gets used as THE word for a Native man. Same with "chief." Or brave! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Speaking of Little House books and Erdrich's Birchbark House -- in Little House, Long Shadow: Laura Ingalls Wilder's Impact on American Culture , the author notes that many authors have basically written responses to the Little House books, including Erdrich, who apparently read (I can't remember if she enjoyed them or not) as a child. I thought that was interesting. I think she set up Birchbark House to be sort of a Native "Little House." Here is a fundamental question -- sparked by a quote on Debbie's website -- White men who have tried to write stories about the Indian have either foisted on the public some bloodcurdling, impossible “thriller”; or, if they have been in sympathy with the Indian, have written from knowledge that was not accurate and reliable. No one is able to understand the Indian race like an Indian. —Luther Standing Bear, 1928 I am not sure it's always possible to find stories about a group, that are written by a group. How much understanding is required? Should one go for a smaller sample size of well-written, culturally authentic works instead of a smorgasbord of stuff? It's one of those things I ponder. Is this true for non-fiction? I must say I have read other books for kids (not native, but non-American, written by Americans) that strike me as inauthentic. One continuously referred to things that are very common in that culture -- everyday things -- as "strange." This happens throughout the book, certainly 4 or 5 times. They are things that an American kid, for example, might not be familiar with, but I cannot imagine a child from this country would find unusual. It was one of those things that made me eventually stop reading the book to my own kids, because it was so obnoxious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 I'm off to find Edward Said's Orientalism on my shelf now.. for another day. I'd take this book with a grain of salt. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 I'd take this book with a grain of salt. Bill Ah, I take everything with a grain of salt! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Ah, I take everything with a grain of salt! :D Wise woman :D Don't get me wrong I abhor bigotry and racism and am especially sensitive to its place in children's literature. And I had a great deal of respect for Edward Said. I even got to meet him once. There are few individuals with the personal charisma and burning intelligence that I've ever encountered. I was deeply saddened at his passing. Yet while "Orientalism" raised some valid points, I think Dr Said's analysis in this work crudely forced a complex subject through all too narrow a filter and the result was an "idealogical polemic" rather than a work of reasoned scholarship. I get that it got a discussion (fight?) going that still needs to be had, but in this work I think he's often over-the-top. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 Wise woman :D Don't get me wrong I abhor bigotry and racism and am especially sensitive to its place in children's literature. And I had a great deal of respect for Edward Said. I even got to meet him once. There are few individuals with the personal charisma and burning intelligence that I've ever encountered. I was deeply saddened at his passing. Yet while "Orientalism" raised some valid points, I think Dr Said's analysis in this work crudely forced a complex subject through all too narrow a filter and the result was an "idealogical polemic" rather than a work of reasoned scholarship. I get that it got a discussion (fight?) going that still needs to be had, but in this work I think he's often over-the-top. Bill Oh no my husband is pulling out his books!! Look what you've started !! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 Wise woman :D Don't get me wrong I abhor bigotry and racism and am especially sensitive to its place in children's literature. And I had a great deal of respect for Edward Said. I even got to meet him once. There are few individuals with the personal charisma and burning intelligence that I've ever encountered. I was deeply saddened at his passing. Yet while "Orientalism" raised some valid points, I think Dr Said's analysis in this work crudely forced a complex subject through all too narrow a filter and the result was an "idealogical polemic" rather than a work of reasoned scholarship. I get that it got a discussion (fight?) going that still needs to be had, but in this work I think he's often over-the-top. Bill My husband wants to know if you've read Occidentosis? :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 (edited) Oh no my husband is pulling out his books!! Look what you've started !! :lol: Uh oh! It has been more than 30 years since I read "Orientalism." I do believe I still have a very well marked up copy buried in storage. This work was very in vogue when I was at Berkeley (at least in my set which included a number of Arab students, "Arabists", and Berkeley/Noam Chompsky types). Alone among my friends I felt pretty critical of the book and there was a good deal of discussion with me being the lone "conservative." Imagine that :D I hope I don't have to go digging through a hundred boxes :tongue_smilie: Bill Edited April 8, 2011 by Spy Car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 My husband wants to know if you've read Occidentosis? :rolleyes: I have not. Should I? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 I have not. Should I? Bill He says Absolutely! All I know is that the man is giddy for books, so who knows. He just excitedly showed me two copies saying "It's not just that one's soft cover and one's a hard cover, it's TWO different translations!!". :001_smile: I really ought to go see what he has on Native Americans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 In the Three Sisters Garden. It has stories, gardening, crafts, and so much more. Fabulous resource. I am very sensitive to the racism as I have some Cherokee and Algon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Anything by Helen Rountree or Joseph Bruchac.Also, two really good movies we found: Nightmare in Jamestown, and Pocahontas Revealed. Here is another good Pocahontas resource, although I wouldn't recommend it for young kids, but maybe high school. I read it and talk about it with my kids, as it provides pretty conflicting information to what most books say happened to Pocahontas. The True Story of Pocahontas: The Other Side of History Thanks! I am actually descended from Pocahontas and Rolfe. I hadn't found a good movie yet, but I'll look into these. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 In the Three Sisters Garden. It has stories, gardening, crafts, and so much more. Fabulous resource. I am very sensitive to the racism as I have some Cherokee and Algon I wish I could see inside! http://www.gardeningwithkids.org/11-4019.html We spend a lot of time in the garden, this might be a good match for us. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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