A complete distortion of my words

[laundrycrisis]

Actually, no matter what you think of the review--or even what you think the review implies--I don't even think that's the main problem now. Going after someone's livelihood, and using a perceived theological disagreement to market your own books instead, ought to be outside the pale of acceptable behavior.

 

SWB

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I think it is relevant because it is this book and Dr. Enns views that started this fiasco w/ KH. So it is very relevant, and I am sorry that Mrs. Bauer has the added stress of this situation w/ Ken Ham. However, that does not mean that she should not respond to the question. If you are going to put your beliefs out there, as in publicly publish them, then you need to be ready to defend your position and answer questions. Publishing Dr. Enns book has put her in a position that requires some responsibility. Her review left me w/ many unanswered questions to how she came to her own conclusion to support Dr. Enns work or if she had questions about it. The sitaution with KH just makes it all the more relevant really.

 

 

None of the kerfuffle (kerfluffle ?) is about theological disagreements. It's about behavior.

 

IMO anyone who is attempting to pull the focus back toward the theological hairsplitting is trying to take the focus off his behavior.

Edited April 5, 2011 by laundrycrisis

[ange]

Do you have a question about the Bible curriculum? Because that is what PHP has published. The situation with Ken Ham makes questions about everything anyone has ever written or said feel extraneous.

 

My questions were regarding her review of his book I&I. Since Dr. Enns wrote I&I expressing his beliefs regarding the Bible, and is also the author of the Bible curriculum published by PHP, I thought it relevant to ask what SWB supports and/or questions in I&I. I am currently reading the Bible curriculum thanks to the free posting on the WTM forum.

[AvasMom]

I think it is relevant because it is this book and Dr. Enns views that started this fiasco w/ KH. So it is very relevant, and I am sorry that Mrs. Bauer has the added stress of this situation w/ Ken Ham. However, that does not mean that she should not respond to the question. If you are going to put your beliefs out there, as in publicly publish them, then you need to be ready to defend your position and answer questions. Publishing Dr. Enns book has put her in a position that requires some responsibility. Her review left me w/ many unanswered questions to how she came to her own conclusion to support Dr. Enns work or if she had questions about it. The sitaution with KH just makes it all the more relevant really.

 

No, "this book and Dr. Enns' views" did not start this fiasco. Ken Ham started this fiasco because he can't or won't address things in a Christian manner. Thankyouverymuch.

[AuntieM]

I think it is relevant because it is this book and Dr. Enns views that started this fiasco w/ KH. So it is very relevant, and I am sorry that Mrs. Bauer has the added stress of this situation w/ Ken Ham. However, that does not mean that she should not respond to the question. If you are going to put your beliefs out there, as in publicly publish them, then you need to be ready to defend your position and answer questions. Publishing Dr. Enns book has put her in a position that requires some responsibility. Her review left me w/ many unanswered questions to how she came to her own conclusion to support Dr. Enns work or if she had questions about it. The sitaution with KH just makes it all the more relevant really.

 

When my concerns about a book are this great, I usually choose to read it and decide for myself. That, to me, is ge heart of the issue: to be able to make knowledgable choices that meet my own family's need. It also gives me a firmer base from which to pose my questions. If you have real questions, wouldn't you want to take this approach?

[pdalley]

Do you have a question about the Bible curriculum? Because that is what PHP has published. The situation with Ken Ham makes questions about everything anyone has ever written or said feel extraneous.

 

If you do have questions about the Bible curriculum I would encourage you to read the Teacher's guide - the whole of which has been made available by the publisher to read online for free - and the samples on the website.

 

I'm quite conservative a Christian and my mother even more so. We both read the actual curriculum ourselves and neither of us saw any of the stated objections.

 

I urge people to read and make your own decisions - not rely on someone's account of said material. It's out there and you don't have to pay to read it. You have nothing to lose - IMO.

 

My opinions come directly from reading Ken Ham's actual posts and the source material he so freely has chopped up and cut and pasted to suit his argument.

[EJCMom]

My questions were regarding her review of his book I&I. Since Dr. Enns wrote I&I expressing his beliefs regarding the Bible, and is also the author of the Bible curriculum published by PHP, I thought it relevant to ask what SWB supports and/or questions in I&I. I am currently reading the Bible curriculum thanks to the free posting on the WTM forum.

 

I'm curious if you've read Inspiration and Incarnation. Do you know what Dr. Enns says in it, or the conclusions he draws, from first-hand reading of the book?

 

ETA: The reason I ask is because this whole kerfuffle has me really curious as to what the book actually says, and now I plan on reading it. I was just wondering if you've read it or have plans to read it with all of this that's going on.

[Mrs Mungo]

My questions were regarding her review of his book I&I. Since Dr. Enns wrote I&I expressing his beliefs regarding the Bible, and is also the author of the Bible curriculum published by PHP, I thought it relevant to ask what SWB supports and/or questions in I&I. I am currently reading the Bible curriculum thanks to the free posting on the WTM forum.

 

Did you read the whole review?

 

http://www.susanwisebauer.com/blog/inspiration-and-incarnation-review/

 

SWB didn't draw a conclusion one way or the other. She suggested people ask these questions and think *for themselves*.

[Gooblink]

Did you read the whole review?

 

http://www.susanwisebauer.com/blog/inspiration-and-incarnation-review/

 

SWB didn't draw a conclusion one way or the other. She suggested people ask these questions and think *for themselves*.[/QUOTE]

 

Which is more than Ham expects of his audience, IMO.

[AvasMom]

Did you read the whole review?

 

http://www.susanwisebauer.com/blog/inspiration-and-incarnation-review/

 

SWB didn't draw a conclusion one way or the other. She suggested people ask these questions and think *for themselves*.[/QUOTE]

 

Which is more than Ham expects of his audience, IMO.

 

Doesn't Ham, et al. believe its dangerous to come to your own conclusions? Aren't we supposed to depend on others to "warn us of poison in the well"? That's what someone on the GHC FB page said to me. :001_huh:

[Marie in Oh]

I posted this on another home school board I frequent. I have some of Ken Ham's books, and I have some of SWB's and JW's books. I adore them all! I cannot for the life of me understand what your theological views (perceived or real) have to do with your history books and grammar/writing books. I don't need to know someone's theology to learn from them how to diagram a sentence, or how to understand the influence of the Greeks on the rest of the world. I am perfectly capable as a mother and teacher to discern what is true and what is false regarding the Scriptures.

 

We have been AiG supporters and Well Trined Mind followers for years. I just don't get this. Do people not think for themselves anymore? I mean really?

 

When I saw the new Bible curriculum, I did some research. Took, maybe, 10 minutes. I came to my own conclusion that it wouldn't work for our family. That was that. Moved on. I love CLE for some subjects-- won't use it for Bible either. It doesn't make them bad. I like some Veritas Press stuff, won't use their Bible either. Hmmm. Like I said, I just don't get all the spite.

 

Shaking my head.

[nmoira]

 

My questions were regarding her review of his book I&I. Since Dr. Enns wrote I&I expressing his beliefs regarding the Bible, and is also the author of the Bible curriculum published by PHP, I thought it relevant to ask what SWB supports and/or questions in I&I.

Are you curious about all publishers to this degree? I'm just confused as to why it means so much to you. Is it really a big deal if Enns isn't your cup if tea? Would the personal convictions of one face of the publishing company change this? I just don't get why you need to know, or what business it is of yours... though you do seem to think you are entitled to an answer.

[Slartibartfast]

Doesn't Ham, et al. believe its dangerous to come to your own conclusions? Aren't we supposed to depend on others to "warn us of poison in the well"? That's what someone on the GHC FB page said to me. :001_huh:

 

Is the person saying the well is poisoned the one who poisoned it?

[AvasMom]

I posted this on another home school board I frequent. I have some of Ken Ham's books, and I have some of SWB's and JW's books. I adore them all! I cannot for the life of me understand what your theological views (perceived or real) have to do with your history books and grammar/writing books. I don't need to know someone's theology to learn from them how to diagram a sentence, or how to understand the influence of the Greeks on the rest of the world. I am perfectly capable as a mother and teacher to discern what is true and what is false regarding the Scriptures.

 

We have been AiG supporters and Well Trined Mind followers for years. I just don't get this. Do people not think for themselves anymore? I mean really?

 

When I saw the new Bible curriculum, I did some research. Took, maybe, 10 minutes. I came to my own conclusion that it wouldn't work for our family. That was that. Moved on. I love CLE for some subjects-- won't use it for Bible either. It doesn't make them bad. I like some Veritas Press stuff, won't use their Bible either. Hmmm. Like I said, I just don't get all the spite.

 

Shaking my head.

:iagree:

[razorbackmama]

Is the person saying the well is poisoned the one who poisoned it?

I may have to use this as my FB status. EXCELLENT.

[AvasMom]

Is the person saying the well is poisoned the one who poisoned it?

 

Not sure. That's not who said it to me anyway.

 

Never mind...duh...I read this wrong. I thought you were asking if KH was the one who made the comment. Never mind me. Making more coffee now. lol!

[ange]

Are you curious about all publishers to this degree? I'm just confused as to why it means so much to you. Is it really a big deal if Enns isn't your cup if tea? Would the personal convictions of one face of the publishing company change this? I just don't get why you need to know, or what business it is of yours... though you do seem to think you are entitled to an answer.

 

to your first question: yes

 

to the rest: It is my business to know the worldview of the person whose materials I may choose to purchase and use to educate my children. I thought that was one of the big points of hsing....choosing your materials carefully according to your worldview. If SWB was not a published author and selling me homeschool curriculum...then no I would not care what she thinks. (and yes, when it comes to history , your worldview DOES matter and no matter how hard you try to not have your worldview effect what you think and write...it is impossible for your worldview to not affect the final product.)

[KnitWit]

Ange, I agree that wv is important in history, but...I prefer to view the work and determine for myself if the author's wv jives with mine. I think things like this quickly become apparent. It is still a matter, for me, of determining this for *myself*. I am finding too many out there who will be all things to all people to make a buck. However, I think SWB has made her wv pretty clear. That doesn't necessarily mean you will agree with her take on *everything*...but honestly, I think that is pretty true across the board. I hope this helps. :)

[laundrycrisis]

to your first question: yes

 

to the rest: It is my business to know the worldview of the person whose materials I may choose to purchase and use to educate my children. I thought that was one of the big points of hsing....choosing your materials carefully according to your worldview. If SWB was not a published author and selling me homeschool curriculum...then no I would not care what she thinks. (and yes, when it comes to history , your worldview DOES matter and no matter how hard you try to not have your worldview effect what you think and write...it is impossible for your worldview to not affect the final product.)

 

This thread is about Ham's actions, not the specifics of Susan's worldview. It strikes me as very odd that you are demanding answers about nitty gritty points of her worldview, right here, right now.

[pdalley]

to your first question: yes

 

to the rest: It is my business to know the worldview of the person whose materials I may choose to purchase and use to educate my children. I thought that was one of the big points of hsing....choosing your materials carefully according to your worldview. If SWB was not a published author and selling me homeschool curriculum...then no I would not care what she thinks. (and yes, when it comes to history , your worldview DOES matter and no matter how hard you try to not have your worldview effect what you think and write...it is impossible for your worldview to not affect the final product.)

 

 

Sometimes, a tree is just a tree and there is no bogeyman behind it.

 

I like to take things - and people - as I find them. If I need to tweak it - I tweak it. More often than not I do. I'm not of the opinion that if something doesn't fall completely in line with what our family believes that it is worthless or part of some vast conspiracy to indoctrinate my kids.

 

I don't know Dr. Enns' worldview. I do know what I have read of the actual Bible curriculum and I see no conflicts with my families worldview. I don't need SWB or Dr Enns to tell me their worldview in order for me to make it useful for my family.

 

I do know that his actions in this matter and SWB's actions in this matter as well as Ken Ham's have revealed much about the content of their character to me. I would think a person's worldview is also reflected in the content of the character.

 

One of our main points in home schooling is to provide an excellent education for our kids. That's the end game for our school.

[nmoira]

to your first question: yes

 

to the rest: It is my business to know the worldview of the person whose materials I may choose to purchase and use to educate my children. I thought that was one of the big points of hsing....choosing your materials carefully according to your worldview. If SWB was not a published author and selling me homeschool curriculum...then no I would not care what she thinks. (and yes, when it comes to history , your worldview DOES matter and no matter how hard you try to not have your worldview effect what you think and write...it is impossible for your worldview to not affect the final product.)

Your original question was about the review. It was reframed as being about his one of Enns's publisher's personal convictions, and now is about SWB's books and her personal convictions. Have you used any PHP materials prior to this? There are dozens of threads here talking about the pros and cons of using SOTW from a Catholic perspective, secular perspective, atheist perspective, Muslim perspective, etc. We have managed to examine the series in great depth and detail without once grilling its author as to the nitty-gritty her personal beliefs. Edited April 5, 2011 by nmoira
Pros and chins

[ange]

again, I state, there are 2 issues here everyone is "lumping" into one. How Ken Ham has handled himself is one (separate) issue. The beliefs that Dr. Enns has presented in his book and his view of the Bible (important to know when someone is writing Bible curriculum) are an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT issue. I am speaking to the latter. I am simply asking about what SWB's views are regarding the latter. That's it. Dare I ask what the problem is with that?

[Mrs Mungo]

Your original question was about the review. It was reframed as being about his one of Enns's publisher's personal convictions, and now is about SWB's books and her personal convictions. Have you used any PHP materials prior to this? There are dozens of threads here talking about the pros and chins of using SOTW from a Catholic perspective, secular perspective, atheist perspective, Muslim perspective, etc. We have managed to examine the series in great depth and detail without once grilling its author as to the nitty-gritty her personal beliefs.

 

:iagree:

[nmoira]

This thread is about Ham's actions, not the specifics of Susan's worldview. It strikes me as very odd that you are demanding answers about nitty gritty points of her worldview, right here, right now.

Nitty-gritty must be the phrase of the day. :001_smile:

 

And I agree.

[ange]

This thread is about Ham's actions, not the specifics of Susan's worldview. It strikes me as very odd that you are demanding answers about nitty gritty points of her worldview, right here, right now.

 

 

this thread started over the review...so I figured it was a place to ask about the review. go figure.

[Slartibartfast]

again, I state, there are 2 issues here everyone is "lumping" into one. How Ken Ham has handled himself is one (separate) issue. The beliefs that Dr. Enns has presented in his book and his view of the Bible (important to know when someone is writing Bible curriculum) are an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT issue. I am speaking to the latter. I am simply asking about what SWB's views are regarding the latter. That's it. Dare I ask what the problem is with that?

 

Have you read anything by her?

[EJCMom]

again, I state, there are 2 issues here everyone is "lumping" into one. How Ken Ham has handled himself is one (separate) issue. The beliefs that Dr. Enns has presented in his book and his view of the Bible (important to know when someone is writing Bible curriculum) are an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT issue. I am speaking to the latter. I am simply asking about what SWB's views are regarding the latter. That's it. Dare I ask what the problem is with that?

 

 

That's why I ask if you've read the controversial book. I think that until a person has read the book for herself, SWB's views about the book are somewhat irrelavant.

[Tiberia]

to your first question: yes

 

to the rest: It is my business to know the worldview of the person whose materials I may choose to purchase and use to educate my children. I thought that was one of the big points of hsing....choosing your materials carefully according to your worldview. If SWB was not a published author and selling me homeschool curriculum...then no I would not care what she thinks. (and yes, when it comes to history , your worldview DOES matter and no matter how hard you try to not have your worldview effect what you think and write...it is impossible for your worldview to not affect the final product.)

 

Gotta jump into this for a minute: Yes, worldview does matter. But your worldview is what your kids will get if you teach them.

 

I can't be the thought police for every author and publisher out there. I can teach my worldview to my kid no matter what curriculum I use. I can teach the evils of Hitler using Mein Kampf, showing the author's gaps in logic and historical data. I can teach about the God in whom I believe, while still teaching about Egyptian gods, Roman gods, and Harry Potter. I'm not afraid of new, different, ideas. If my faith can't defend itself, it's not a very good faith. I don't have to close my eyes and my mind to all that's out there.

 

If my Christianity can be undermined by a slightly different viewpoint, I'm in trouble. To accuse other Christians like this is just rude, and makes me question motives. Am I going to say KH is not a Christian brother? No. Is he using poor judgement and logic? Yes.

[laundrycrisis]

this thread started over the review...so I figured it was a place to ask about the review. go figure.

 

It started over what Ham did with it, which is part of the larger issue of his behavior.

 

I can't speak for SWB, but the way I see it, there might have been an opportunity for a civil exchange of ideas between two authors, or agreeing to disagree on some differences, but he chose not to take that course.

[AvasMom]

That's why I ask if you've read the controversial book. I think that until a person has read the book for herself, SWB's views about the book are somewhat irrelavant.

 

Yeah that. I do feel like its important to tell you that SWB is big on using original sources and coming to your own conclusions. You don't have to read very far into any of her books to glean that. Hope that helps! :)

[Happy2BaMom]

It started over what Ham did with it, which is part of the larger issue of his behavior.

 

:iagree:

 

Ange, it sounds to me as if you are a very sincere Christian for whom it is important to have a near-100% match in worldview and/or certain theological points from authors of homeschool material you use. There is nothing wrong in this. However, when you are calling an author on the carpet to basically explain him- or her-self to you on certain points, it gets very personal...it kind of has a "you-will-report-to-me-NOW" ring to it, even if you don't want it to come across that way.

 

My reading of the OP was that Susan is trying to keep people informed of what she originally did say, in comparison to what KH is trying to say she said, not that she was looking to open debate over her review.

 

Anyway, my very humble 2 cents.

[Nakia]

Gotta jump into this for a minute: Yes, worldview does matter. But your worldview is what your kids will get if you teach them.

 

I can't be the thought police for every author and publisher out there. I can teach my worldview to my kid no matter what curriculum I use. I can teach the evils of Hitler using Mein Kampf, showing the author's gaps in logic and historical data. I can teach about the God in whom I believe, while still teaching about Egyptian gods, Roman gods, and Harry Potter. I'm not afraid of new, different, ideas. If my faith can't defend itself, it's not a very good faith. I don't have to close my eyes and my mind to all that's out there.

 

If my Christianity can be undermined by a slightly different viewpoint, I'm in trouble. To accuse other Christians like this is just rude, and makes me question motives. Am I going to say KH is not a Christian brother? No. Is he using poor judgement and logic? Yes.

 

Well said!!!!

[KnitWit]

again, I state, there are 2 issues here everyone is "lumping" into one. How Ken Ham has handled himself is one (separate) issue. The beliefs that Dr. Enns has presented in his book and his view of the Bible (important to know when someone is writing Bible curriculum) are an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT issue. I am speaking to the latter. I am simply asking about what SWB's views are regarding the latter. That's it. Dare I ask what the problem is with that?

 

I realize this may come across as sarcastic, but I mean it sincere. I think it is safe to assume that, even if Susan has points of disagreement with Dr. Enns, they are not such that affect *this* book, or she would not publish it.

 

This is not uncommon. Even in the study of theology, you will hear discussion that might agree with an entire volume *except* for one point...and yet, they will still recommend it with the disclaimer "I don't *personally* share this person's view on ____" if it applies.

 

For me, I assume that whatever Dr. Enns has presented in Telling God's Story is a non-issue with Dr. Bauer and therefore it is now up to *me* to read and decide if the same will hold true for myself, or not. I hope this is helpful to you as you think things through.

[pdalley]

Gotta jump into this for a minute: Yes, worldview does matter. But your worldview is what your kids will get if you teach them.

 

I can't be the thought police for every author and publisher out there. I can teach my worldview to my kid no matter what curriculum I use. I can teach the evils of Hitler using Mein Kampf, showing the author's gaps in logic and historical data. I can teach about the God in whom I believe, while still teaching about Egyptian gods, Roman gods, and Harry Potter. I'm not afraid of new, different, ideas. If my faith can't defend itself, it's not a very good faith. I don't have to close my eyes and my mind to all that's out there.

 

If my Christianity can be undermined by a slightly different viewpoint, I'm in trouble. To accuse other Christians like this is just rude, and makes me question motives. Am I going to say KH is not a Christian brother? No. Is he using poor judgement and logic? Yes.

 

:iagree: You said it much better than I could.

[Carol in Cal.]

again, I state, there are 2 issues here everyone is "lumping" into one. How Ken Ham has handled himself is one (separate) issue. The beliefs that Dr. Enns has presented in his book and his view of the Bible (important to know when someone is writing Bible curriculum) are an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT issue.

 

I agree with you that there are two issues here.

 

I can disagree with Dr. Enns (which I do, based on his I + I website postings and SWB's review of that book) but still respect him. I can choose not to use his religion curriculum (which I do so choose) and still consider him a Christian brother (which I also do.)

 

Actually, even if I thought that his current Bible curriculum for young children was flawless, I would hesitate to use it because of his view of the Bible. I would have to consider whether I was giving too much credence to him in an early, formative stage of my children's education. I would think about how and at what point I would decide that the future curricula would diverge to the point where I couldn't use them anymore, and whether I should even start with them if I could help it. It would have to be extraordinarily outstandingly good for me to start with it, knowing that I probably can't continue with it down the road and that I will have to explain that change. But if he were also, say, an expert on botany, his views on Scripture probably wouldn't stop me from using a botany curriculum that he wrote.

 

I do this kind of assessment with MANY curricula. I evaluated Omnibus this way, and some of the Christian worldview offerings. I have looked at science curricula this way as well, both Christian and non-Christian. There are trade offs to everything.

 

I have known for a long time that I don't entirely agree with SWB's theology. And you know what? I still love and respect her and appreciate her work tremendously. I use and promote SOTW avidly. I own every edition of TWTM, and I could probably recite changes between them, LOL. I own TWEM. I flew across the country from the West Coast to attend the WTM anniversary conference. I'm a big fan of SWB and her work...and I can be a big fan of her work without agreeing with her about everything or using all of her materials. Some of them work for me, some don't, so what.

 

It's good to sort these things out ourselves, for our own families, and doing that makes us better homeschoolers.

[Carol in Cal.]

However, that does not mean that she should not respond to the question. If you are going to put your beliefs out there, as in publicly publish them, then you need to be ready to defend your position and answer questions. Publishing Dr. Enns book has put her in a position that requires some responsibility.

 

You know, I don't think that she is obligated to answer any particular question. I think that she has handled a very challenging situation with grace and dignity, and that, given what is going on publicly right now, her choosing not to comment more broadly than she already has is both wise and measured. I did not read her review as being completely positive, and it is based on that review, in fact, as well as Dr. Enns' own website, that I realized that my theological views are not the same as his. However, I don't expect him or SWB to answer questions about it from me as though I were a colleague or, worse yet, a boss, of either one of them. And I certainly don't expect either of them to endorse the other unreservedly, nor do I interpret their silence on some matters as either consent to my views or evasion. It would be presumptuous of me to have those kinds of expectations.

[Surfside Academy]

again, I state, there are 2 issues here everyone is "lumping" into one. How Ken Ham has handled himself is one (separate) issue. The beliefs that Dr. Enns has presented in his book and his view of the Bible (important to know when someone is writing Bible curriculum) are an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT issue.

 

I agree with you that there are two issues here.

 

I can disagree with Dr. Enns (which I do, based on his I + I website postings and SWB's review of that book) but still respect him. I can choose not to use his religion curriculum (which I do so choose) and still consider him a Christian brother (which I also do.)

 

Actually, even if I thought that his current Bible curriculum for young children was flawless, I would hesitate to use it because of his view of the Bible. I would have to consider whether I was giving too much credence to him in an early, formative stage of my children's education. I would think about how and at what point I would decide that the future curricula would diverge to the point where I couldn't use them anymore, and whether I should even start with them if I could help it. It would have to be extraordinarily outstandingly good for me to start with it, knowing that I probably can't continue with it down the road and that I will have to explain that change. But if he were also, say, an expert on botany, his views on Scripture probably wouldn't stop me from using a botany curriculum that he wrote.

 

I do this kind of assessment with MANY curricula. I evaluated Omnibus this way, and some of the Christian worldview offerings. I have looked at science curricula this way as well, both Christian and non-Christian. There are trade offs to everything.

 

I have known for a long time that I don't entirely agree with SWB's theology. And you know what? I still love and respect her and appreciate her work tremendously. I use and promote SOTW avidly. I own every edition of TWTM, and I could probably recite changes between them, LOL. I own TWEM. I flew across the country from the West Coast to attend the WTM anniversary conference. I'm a big fan of SWB and her work...and I can be a big fan of her work without agreeing with her about everything or using all of her materials. Some of them work for me, some don't, so what.

 

It's good to sort these things out ourselves, for our own families, and doing that makes us better homeschoolers.

:iagree:

 

Carol,

 

You wrote exactly what I've been feeling over past few days during this kerfluffle.

[kathkath]

wow. At what point do lawyers get involved? When does this cross over into "defamation of character?"

[AvasMom]

wow. At what point do lawyers get involved? When does this cross over into "defamation of character?"

 

Someone on one of these threads said that SWB would have to have proof that it caused harm. Other than that, I'm not sure what the legalities are. :confused:

[specialmama]

Actually, no matter what you think of the review--or even what you think the review implies--I don't even think that's the main problem now. Going after someone's livelihood, and using a perceived theological disagreement to market your own books instead, ought to be outside the pale of acceptable behavior.

 

SWB

 

:iagree: And might I add that you are handling this with much style and grace. It saddens me that this is causing so much division. I enjoy AIG material and I enjoy PHP material. As you said, it's the behaviour that is the main problem. Many prayers for your continued perseverance and I'm sending some cyber brownies and hugs your way. :grouphug:

[Carol in Cal.]

Gotta jump into this for a minute: Yes, worldview does matter. But your worldview is what your kids will get if you teach them.

 

I can't be the thought police for every author and publisher out there. I can teach my worldview to my kid no matter what curriculum I use. I can teach the evils of Hitler using Mein Kampf, showing the author's gaps in logic and historical data. I can teach about the God in whom I believe, while still teaching about Egyptian gods, Roman gods, and Harry Potter. I'm not afraid of new, different, ideas. If my faith can't defend itself, it's not a very good faith. I don't have to close my eyes and my mind to all that's out there.

 

 

 

I agree with you partially, but I think that there is some appropriate parental wisdom that comes into play when deciding at what age to allow homeschooled children to be exposed to diverging views. And SOTW is written for pretty young children, so it's reasonable to poke at the question of how the author's worldview may or may not effect that curriculum.

 

To which I would say, based on my own DIRECT EXPERIENCE with having read SOTW several times and taught it, it's very scholarly and also very engaging. It's about as neutral as a world history curriculum can be while still being Christian-friendly, which it is. I interspersed Biblical history with Volume 1 and found no problem with doing so. It avoids the young earth controversy completely. There are a few lessons in Volume 1 that retell and/or amplify Biblical history stories. Since it is our family's practice to read the actual Bible starting around age 4, we simply cut over to the Bible for those. However, they were accurate and inoffensive, and presented the Bible stories truthfully. There is nothing whatsoever in SOTW itself that contradicts a Bible-believing view of Scripture.

 

There are a very few of the recommended resources in the AG's that I felt the need to censor. (I hasten to add -- this is not an exhaustive list as I did not look at all of them). One was a book called "10 Queens" that denies the historicity of the book of Esther. I was glad I caught that and did not read that story exactly as written to my DD. The other was a book about the Reformation that was very biased in favor of a Roman Catholic perspective, to the point where it was actually deceptive. That one I just tossed--it was not redeemable. Other than those, the other 100-200 or more AG book recommendations that we used were superb, clearly better than the random books that I was finding in our local library, best of breed.

 

SOTW made my DD into the history buff that she is today--it truly made history her favorite subject. I recommend it wholeheartedly.

 

And, BTW, I'm a pretty conservative Christian, LCMS Lutheran, young earth, inspired/inerrant Bible-believer. For what it's worth.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Carol in Cal.

[Sue G in PA]

I am just sickened by this whole entire thing. It has morphed into something completely different from the original issue. And I am so disappointed that a man whom I originally respected has behaved in such a completely un-Christlike manner. Susan, I'm sorry you have been caught in the middle of this. I pray that his character assault does not hurt your business and livlihood. I pray that it has the opposite effect. If I had the $, I would buy out your store! Now, I must think long and hard about my support of Dr. Hamm's business. While I am a young Earth Creationist and AiG produces great materials on this topic, I think I will have to find other publishers. Ugh. I am just so disappointed. :grouphug: Susan, and thank you. We all love you here.

[Aubrey]

Susan...I've got an article coming out in TOS this month...not entirely relevant (since it was written a while back), but it does (briefly) mention SOTW. While the topic is history, the arguments apply completely to the kerfluffle: you know, using logic, humility, grace.

 

Crossing my fingers that that will help a little.

[KnitWit]

Susan...I've got an article coming out in TOS this month...not entirely relevant (since it was written a while back), but it does (briefly) mention SOTW. While the topic is history, the arguments apply completely to the kerfluffle: you know, using logic, humility, grace.

 

Crossing my fingers that that will help a little.

 

I *heart* you!

[TheAutumnOak]

I am just sickened by this whole entire thing. It has morphed into something completely different from the original issue. And I am so disappointed that a man whom I originally respected has behaved in such a completely un-Christlike manner. Susan, I'm sorry you have been caught in the middle of this. I pray that his character assault does not hurt your business and livlihood. I pray that it has the opposite effect. If I had the $, I would buy out your store!:grouphug: Susan, and thank you. We all love you here.

 

:iagree:

[Perry]

Dear Mrs. Bauer,

 

 

I agree there are separate issues going on. Specifically, I was wondering if there was anything that Dr. Enns

 

Dr. Bauer, not Mrs. Bauer.

 

Sheesh.

:tongue_smilie:

[nmoira]

Dr. Bauer, not Mrs. Bauer.

 

Sheesh.

:tongue_smilie:

And not an honorary one at that. :D

[TN Mama]

And not an honorary one at that. :D

 

You must have special powers that let you read the minds of others. :001_huh: That was exactly my thought.

[justamouse]

Gotta jump into this for a minute: Yes, worldview does matter. But your worldview is what your kids will get if you teach them.

 

I can't be the thought police for every author and publisher out there. I can teach my worldview to my kid no matter what curriculum I use. I can teach the evils of Hitler using Mein Kampf, showing the author's gaps in logic and historical data. I can teach about the God in whom I believe, while still teaching about Egyptian gods, Roman gods, and Harry Potter. I'm not afraid of new, different, ideas. If my faith can't defend itself, it's not a very good faith. I don't have to close my eyes and my mind to all that's out there.

 

If my Christianity can be undermined by a slightly different viewpoint, I'm in trouble. To accuse other Christians like this is just rude, and makes me question motives. Am I going to say KH is not a Christian brother? No. Is he using poor judgement and logic? Yes.

 

That is so perfectly said. Can that fit in my siggy?

[KnitWit]

I hope everyone has actually READ Susan's blog post. It is very, very good. I just read it *again*...very slowly...the distortion is even more shocking to me. I think that people are *scanning* or *speed reading*, rather than finding a quiet spot and r.e.a.d.i.n.g. Not saying this means everyone will *agree* after reading it...but that you will at least *get her*.

[staceyobu]

:confused: I am not here to attack SWB, her business, or anything else she does. I simply wanted to know whether or not she found any weaknesses in Dr. Enns arguments in his book. I find it interesting that everyone here is intent on not asking that and being condescending to someone who does. As for Dr. Enns, I find his perspective baffling, but I would like to undersand how he comes to it. .it is important to question your assumptions. Am I the only one doing this here? I think it is sad what is happening on these boards, and I for one (for all the speak of inclusiveness) do not feel welcome at all if I dare to not swoon over SWB or ask a question that may in the end mean I disagree with her. I respect SWB for her academic work. I do not agree with some things she has said, but that is true for all of us. I am not supportive of personal attacks. I thought the purpose of this board was to learn, to find new ideas and grow in our common homeschooling endeavor. I guess I was wrong.

 

Obviously these forums are open to all. I have been on here for about three years now and have not used a single SWB product in our homeschool. But, obviously, OBVIOUSLY, these forums are going to be full of SWB supporters. She's been kicked around a lot lately, so there is going to be a huge outpouring of support for her right now... because we love and care about her and have known her on this board for a long time. I have seen countless threads on here of people questioning her materials... trying to determine if they are the best materials for their family or if something else would work out better. I've seen lots of people recommend other products to fit a family.

 

It's just not the time for it right now. When all of this fades away, I'm sure people will be able to ask all the questions they have about products and criticise all they want.

 

This board ISN'T just a place to grow in homeschooling knowledge. It's a community. And, a member of that community needs support right now... not a bunch of questions.

 

again, I state, there are 2 issues here everyone is "lumping" into one. How Ken Ham has handled himself is one (separate) issue. The beliefs that Dr. Enns has presented in his book and his view of the Bible (important to know when someone is writing Bible curriculum) are an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT issue. I am speaking to the latter. I am simply asking about what SWB's views are regarding the latter. That's it. Dare I ask what the problem is with that?

 

How are these two separate issues? Ken Ham just QUOTED her review. Doesn't that sorta make these two issues turn into one? Sounds a bit like pot stirring to me...