Really frustrated with inappropriate content in History of the Ancient World

[Melissa in CA]

I think it comes down to why anyone would think this is the responsibility of the author to guess what each reader's definition of 'inappropriate' is or what each reader finds offensive.

 

I am not suggesting that SWB define inappropriate for anyone. But she does know that the book contains sexual references, does she not? (Please understand, I have NOT read this book and am actually arguing from ignorance here! ;)) She does recommend it for high school though, does she not? She does have a very large homeschool following, does she not? Many homeschoolers are Christian, and often very sensitive to sexual topics, are they not? Is it SO inconceivable that Peacehill Press put a short statement on their website that the book contains many first hand historical accounts that some, more sensitive, homeschoolers may find objectionable? A lil "heads-up" so to speak.

 

I hear all of your arguments, and I understand where you are coming from, but I honestly don't see why that is so inconceivable a thing. :001_huh: I guess I am just thinking how *I* would do things if *I* had a huge homeschool following and knew my books might offend some of my followers.

 

Perhaps I am naive. :001_smile:

[tex-mex]

This has been a fascinating conversation.

 

I was mulling all this over while I worked in the damp garden today. ;)

 

On a lighter note, I couldn't help but be reminded of an old English folk song, "One Man Shall Mow My Meadow." (You can hear a wee snippet of it here, track 28: http://www.amazon.com/Jackfish-More-Songs-Singing-Children/dp/B0000630CD/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1301793487&sr=1-8 ) It's typically sung by a woman in the spring Revels shows that take place in various cities around the country; Revels was founded by Jack Langstaff, the singer in this disc. I have been in several of these shows, and one year the woman who was singing this song just wasn't getting the... driving, building oomph of the song. Jack Langstaff was visiting, and he was working with this gentle, sweet woman, and finally leaned over and whispered something in her ear. She blushed furiously, and laughed, and then sang the heck out of this little tune. She got it.

 

Not all innuendo has to be disturbing and dirty. Some lies under the surface of our everyday world, that throb and pulse of life itself. Sexy, yes.

 

ETA: you can hear another version here: http://store.revels.org/onemanshallmowmymeadow.aspx This one give you a better sense of the "cumulative" effect of the song.

:smilielol5:I'm sorry... but this really was hilarious. ;) HAAAAAAAA

[tex-mex]

 

I hear all of your arguments, and I understand where you are coming from, but I honestly don't see why that is so inconceivable a thing. :001_huh: I guess I am just thinking how *I* would do things if *I* had a huge homeschool following and knew my books might offend some of my followers.

 

Perhaps I am naive. :001_smile:

Because it creates a slippery slope for demanding the author of a book police their OWN work from the public. It would be akin to having the reader blindly accepting whatever the author says as fact BEFORE reading it for themselves. Thus, making us mindless lemmings if we have to have a "warning" of a book that obviously is going to have suggestive themes, kwim?

 

I know many authors would be up in arms over this mandate by a small segment of the population to preface a warning on their own work. I would think that if anything, the person needs to think for themselves. Not just accept an idea or thought without researching it for themselves. Much like not giving any book to our children without pre-reading it ourselves. :confused:

 

I know when I taught full time as a public schoolteacher, I had to study up the textbook or literature (I was about to assign my students) for myself over the summer break -- if I were new to the grade level. Why would we not monitor what our children read? I believe this is the prevailing thought of most of the posts on this thread. Read it for yourself. If you like it, use it for your child. If not, sell it at the next used book fair. Simple solution.

Edited April 4, 2011 by tex-mex

[Melissa in CA]

I don't disagree with that. I disagree that is the responsibility of an author or publisher to make you aware of the content. Check it out of the library, read it, decide for yourself.

 

But, I think the problem could be that many homeschoolers trust SWB and just assume the book will not be inappropriate. Not her fault, I know, but because of who she is, perhaps she has a responsibility to her homeschool followers that other authors do not? A small disclaimer perhaps, letting them know that this is NOT SOTW, but contains more adult material that some may find objectionable. I don't know. Nothing at all against SWB, but under the circumstances, that doesn't seem so unreasonable to me. :confused:

[Mrs Mungo]

But, I think the problem could be that many homeschoolers trust SWB and just assume the book will not be inappropriate. Not her fault, I know, but because of who she is, perhaps she has a responsibility to her homeschool followers that other authors do not? A small disclaimer perhaps, letting them know that this is NOT SOTW, but contains more adult material that some may find objectionable. I don't know. Nothing at all against SWB, but under the circumstances, that doesn't seem so unreasonable to me. :confused:

 

There is disagreement over whether it does contain material that is inappropriate for the age group. *I* don't think it's inappropriate (and I'm a Christian homeschooler whose children have never been in a traditional school), I use it for my ninth grader. I have no problem with it. I have a friend who is using it with her ninth grader and he's not allowed to see movies that are rated PG.

 

The fact that it is not SOTW should be evident by the fact that it isn't used with elementary-aged students.

 

SWB gave her opinion on the thread, and I agree. If you are extremely sensitive to sexual references, then you should pre-read everything for yourself and decide for yourself whether a work off a reading list is appropriate for your family. That's all anyone is saying.

[Savermom]

Because it creates a slippery slope for demanding the author of a book police their OWN work from the public. It would be akin to having the reader blindly accepting whatever the author says as fact BEFORE reading it for themselves. Thus, making us mindless lemmings if we have to have a "warning" of a book that obviously is going to have suggestive themes, kwim?

 

I know many authors would be up in arms over this mandate by a small segment of the population to preface a warning on their own work.

 

No one is advocating a mandate or demanding anything. It wouldn't be a "warning." A line that states "Contains sexual references" or something benign like that isn't such a big deal. I agree with what Melissa said. And some books, like HOAW, are too long to pre-read. That's why a little "heads-up" would help some of us parents who wish to avoid sexual references.

 

I, personally, am referring only to a history book with sexual references, not perceived violence. Many posts have included the "ugly side" of history in this lot. I believe there is a distinct difference between reading the violent, unpleasant side of history and reading the sexual side.

 

What students read in college and adulthood should be different than high school. Lumping a 14 yr old in with a college student doesn't make sense on many levels.

[Murphy101]

But, I think the problem could be that many homeschoolers trust SWB and just assume the book will not be inappropriate. Not her fault, I know, but because of who she is, perhaps she has a responsibility to her homeschool followers that other authors do not? A small disclaimer perhaps, letting them know that this is NOT SOTW, but contains more adult material that some may find objectionable. I don't know. Nothing at all against SWB, but under the circumstances, that doesn't seem so unreasonable to me. :confused:

 

Wow. They CAN assume SWB is not writing inappropriate sexual material. She has a responsibility to have academic integrity, same as ANY author. Home schoolers have a responsibility to not be sheeple followers and educate themselves.

If someone thinks material geared specificly for high school and adults would just be more of Story of the World, then they are seriously mistaken in what qualifies has academic content for high school and adults.:confused:

[Melissa in CA]

Because it creates a slippery slope for demanding the author of a book police their OWN work from the public. It would be akin to having the reader blindly accepting whatever the author says as fact BEFORE reading it for themselves. Thus, making us mindless lemmings if we have to have a "warning" of a book that obviously is going to have suggestive themes, kwim?

 

I know many authors would be up in arms over this mandate by a small segment of the population to preface a warning on their own work. I would think that if anything, the person needs to think for themselves. Not just accept an idea or thought without researching it for themselves. Much like not giving any book to our children without pre-reading it ourselves. :confused:

 

I know when I taught full time as a public schoolteacher I had to study up the textbook or literature I was about to assign my students over the summer break -- if I were new to the grade level. Why would we not monitor what our children read? I believe this is the prevailing thought of most of the posts on this thread. Read it for yourself. If you like it, use it for your child. If not, sell it at the next used book fair. Simple solution.

 

I totally understand what you're saying. And, I agree. I do! :001_smile: But, homeschooling is so very different from teaching a class of students. Many homeschoolers are teaching various grades in a given year. That is A LOT of prereading, and oftentimes they just do not have the time for that. They want to be able to trust an author. I have fictional authors I totally trust. I know I can buy one of their books and, I will not only enjoy it, but will not find anything objectionable. I also have authors who I KNOW are going to objectionable, and I know that going into the book.

 

I think with SWB it's a bit muddied. She's a homeschool proponent. She wrote SOTW. She's our homeschooling mentor. We trust her. I'm sure the OP trusted her when she purchased her highschool/adult level book...which may be why her frustration was so high. Is that SWB problem? No, I get that. But then again, because of who she is, is it inconceivable that she might be held to a higher standard? :confused: I don't know.

 

I really don't have the answers, just questioning the issue at hand. :D

[Colleen in NS]

Fortunately for me, I haven't been in a position where I've had to keep attending to anything past my ability to cope with. The bad stuff I've dealt with I usually control with "it's been and gone and no one can change it now." When that doesn't work, I've been able to toss it or and move on.

 

Interesting thoughts, Rosie. Thank you.

 

Then the heavy details seem suited for an in-depth study as one gradually develops an interest, a concern, a passion, a need to know.

 

Hmmm, yes, I see now. Like various friends of mine who are involved in fighting child-trafficking, and things like that. Sometimes you *have* to learn more details, in order to help.

 

She does recommend it for high school though, does she not? She does have a very large homeschool following, does she not? Many homeschoolers are Christian, and often very sensitive to sexual topics, are they not? Is it SO inconceivable that Peacehill Press put a short statement on their website that the book contains many first hand historical accounts that some, more sensitive, homeschoolers may find objectionable? A lil "heads-up" so to speak.

 

I hear all of your arguments, and I understand where you are coming from, but I honestly don't see why that is so inconceivable a thing. :001_huh: I guess I am just thinking how *I* would do things if *I* had a huge homeschool following and knew my books might offend some of my followers.

 

Perhaps I am naive. :001_smile:

 

Not naive, you just would do things differently. But SWB apparently isn't going to do it your way, and she already explained why.

 

Even though I squirmed while reading some parts of HOAW (and a few other things I've read recently), most of the replies in this thread make me feel *more* confident and *more* dignified as a home educator and my children's primary influence at this stage. It's as though I have "permission" (that I'm finding I didn't really need) to go examine books myself and prepare to talk about them (whether or not I had the time to pre-read), instead of waiting for some spiritual leader or expert to tell me what to read or give to my kids to read.

 

I lived through the "burning of evil record albums" era in the 1980s - believe me, I'd rather have to talk to my kids about plowing damp fields than to have their thinking messed up by authoritative sounding videos about the dangers of back-masking. :lol:

[Xander]

Please understand, I have NOT read this book and am actually arguing from ignorance here!

Is it SO inconceivable that Peacehill Press put a short statement on their website that the book contains many first hand historical accounts that some, more sensitive, homeschoolers may find objectionable?

 

Maybe you should read the book before making pronouncements about it?

It doesn't contain "many" such accounts. There are a /few/ brief sections which some people have a problem with.

 

 

Incidentally, it's extremely tame compared to what was covered in some of my 9th grade classes (at a Christian school).

[Janice in NJ]

Hi Colleen,

 

I try to limit the dosage. :001_smile:

 

I generally avoid really painful stuff when I can. But I don't shy away from it completely; I don't feel like I'm allowed to if I'm going to educate. (Please no flames - that is a PERSONAL conviction. Just stating it here for reference - I'm NOT projecting that conviction on to someone else at all!)

 

Ultimately, I would like to put feet to my feelings; I suspect that's probably the answer. I think getting involved in social change is probably the best way to provide an outlet to the outrage.

 

Unfortunately, I still have a job here to do at home. Dh has an extremely demanding job. Probably will clock 75-80 hrs. this week. So I'm committed to being a presence in my house until the last little man marches out into the great wide world. Then? We'll see! But I think DOING something is probably the best response to discovering something. Or at least, I think it will be for me. (And if I recall - I'm preaching to the choir on this one. You've LIVED this, my friend!)

 

In the meantime, I try not to purposefully avoid the truth, but I try never to wallow. I can't take it. It hurts so very, very much! Suffocating! (And I'm talking about the really sad stuff in history here. As I recall, there is nothing in HoAW that causes a problem in our house for high schoolers. )

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[tex-mex]

What students read in college and adulthood should be different than high school. Lumping a 14 yr old in with a college student doesn't make sense on many levels.

I disagree.

 

If it helps to gain perspective, as a high school freshman, I was assigned back in 1978 to read Richard Wright's Black Boy. It was back then mandatory reading for many public high schools. First published in 1945, the autobiographical book describes vividly Wright's often harsh, hardscrabble boyhood and youth in rural Mississippi and in Memphis, Tenn.

 

When the work was first published, many white critics viewed Black Boy primarily as an attack on racist Southern white society. From the 1960s the work came to be understood as the story of Wright's coming of age and development as a writer whose race, though a primary component of his life, was but one of many that formed him as an artist.

 

As a high school freshman, I found the book to be raw and eye-opening to say the least. As an adult, I appreciate the fact my English teacher used it to help me gain a better worldview. Would I have my teen son read Black Boy? Yes. But that is my personal decision based on my background and filters for worldviews. You cannot suggest what works for one student will work for all as a broadbrush.

 

One of the beauties of homeschooling is that we get to decide what our children study. But to demand policing of a book due to it offending a small segment of readers? No. Like many of us and SWB have said -- preview it yourself and decide for your family if it works for you all.

[Nan in Mass]

I think you are expected to say to yourself, "SWB wrote a curriculum in which great books are used in high school. Great books contain violence and sex. Therefore, SWB must think that high schoolers are old enough to deal with this material. That would mean that I have no way of knowing whether a history book by SWB meant for high schoolers and adults contains or does not contain violence and sex.

 

You might also notice that SWB recommends fairy tales and folk tales and myths to be read in elementary school. That also might be a clue that SWB is not writing either children's books or a homeschool method meant for people with a very sheltering family culture, or who are the type of conservative Christian who do not want their children exposed to Greek gods and witches.

 

I suspect that SWB herself assumes that since the main aims of her homeschooling method are to teach children early on to reason for themselves and to prepare them to read great books, that it isn't unreasonable to assume that the people mentioned above will not be interested in the things she has written, or that at least they should approach her recommendations with suspicion and double check.

 

There are so many types of Christians and so many types of family cultures.

 

(Hoping I'm not being to blunt here. I myself pick through TWTM book lists avoiding the ones that I think are too depressing for my emotionally fragile family to manage. But I know that I need to doublecheck recommendations, no matter who recommends them.)

 

-Nan

[Melissa in CA]

Wow. They CAN assume SWB is not writing inappropriate sexual material. She has a responsibility to have academic integrity, same as ANY author

 

Yes, but the homeschooling OP apparently DID assume that and did find the sexual references inappropriate. :confused: (and though I know many are silent, I'm sure the OP is not alone). I KNOW that SWB didn't write them herself, that she was just quoting historical sources, but they were in her book, therefore she kind of has to own them, kwim? She didn't HAVE to include them, but chose to for whatever reason.

 

Again, I haven't read the book and it's very possible, aside from the 'plowing' quote, that I would not object to it. This really isn't my fight, but I can totally see the OP's point of view...as well as the opposites side. ;)

 

(It doesn't help that we are off school this week and I have way too much time on my hands, either. :lol:)

[elegantlion]

Because it creates a slippery slope for demanding the author of a book police their OWN work from the public. It would be akin to having the reader blindly accepting whatever the author says as fact BEFORE reading it for themselves. Thus, making us mindless lemmings if we have to have a "warning" of a book that obviously is going to have suggestive themes, kwim?

 

I know many authors would be up in arms over this mandate by a small segment of the population to preface a warning on their own work. I would think that if anything, the person needs to think for themselves. Not just accept an idea or thought without researching it for themselves. Much like not giving any book to our children without pre-reading it ourselves. :confused:

 

 

:iagree: It's a very slippery slope. Who version of warning would you use? As stated in this thread alone there are many different forms of what is acceptable to parents.

 

What about violence? Some parents are more concerned with violence, shouldn't they get a warning label? Perhaps history itself needs a warning label. :tongue_smilie: Warning: History is full of people that act, react, respond, behave in ways that are not in accordance to your beliefs. That's why it is WORLD history, not the history of one person's perspective.

 

Personally I'm giving my son a classical education to teach him how to teach on his own. To model that behavior means *I* need to learn to think on my own. As Colleen said classical ed has empowered me to make the decisions. This gives me more responsibility over the material, moreso than when I checked the history text box on the order form on a certain provider. With great freedom comes great responsibility. It's more work for me. I don't necessarily want to read a history book before I give it to my son, but it's part of the responsibility of ownership I take.

 

I found this quote from Eleanor Roosevelt to be quite revealing.

 

"Anyone who knows history, particularly the history of Europe, will, I think, recognize that the domination of education or of government by any one particular religious faith is never a happy arrangement for the people."

Eleanor Roosevelt

[Jane in NC]

But, I think the problem could be that many homeschoolers trust SWB and just assume the book will not be inappropriate. Not her fault, I know, but because of who she is, perhaps she has a responsibility to her homeschool followers that other authors do not? A small disclaimer perhaps, letting them know that this is NOT SOTW, but contains more adult material that some may find objectionable. I don't know. Nothing at all against SWB, but under the circumstances, that doesn't seem so unreasonable to me. :confused:

 

Does your Bible have a warning label, "Violence and Erotic content within"?

 

You have mentioned several times that homeschool parents are discerning in a way that Dr. Bauer is not recognizing. I disagree with this statement. Those of us who choose Classical or Semi-classical homeschooling methods are exposing our children to literature that generations before us have honored. We are not seeking a sanitized version of history. We understand that history is motivated by alliances forged on battlefields and behind closed doors (be that the Confessional or the Bedroom). We are raising our teens to be critical thinkers, hence we talk to them as we walk through the past. In fact, I would view a warning label on the History of the Ancient World as insulting.

 

Agreeing to disagree,

Jane

[Melissa in CA]

Agreeing to disagree,

Jane

 

In truth, we would probably agree more than disagree. ;)

[Xander]

No one is advocating a mandate or demanding anything. It wouldn't be a "warning." A line that states "Contains sexual references" or something benign like that isn't such a big deal.

 

How is "contains sexual references" NOT a warning?

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I agree with the others that both History and the Bible come with an implied warning label. It is not safe to go exploring History or Religion! Literature can also shock your socks off.

 

The *only* reasonable approach is for a parent to be familiar with the materials she is handing to her child. There is no shortcut for that!

 

Home educators running around blaming authors. Baffling.

 

"I trusted SWB, and this history book mentions sex!"

 

"I trusted Sonlight, and this science book has an unscheduled page about evolution!"

 

"I trusted Ken Ham so I stayed away from PHP and only bought books from AiG!"

 

We can't teach what we don't know. Mom needs to learn critical thinking, discernment, and personal responsibility if she ever wants her children to possess those traits.

 

I don't trust SWB. I like her very much, and use PHP materials in my homeschool, but I only trust myself to make decisions about the appropriateness of curriculum for my child.

 

I don't trust Sonlight. I adore Sonlight's Cores and use them for preschool through eighth grade, but I only trust myself to know which pages of each book are right for my family.

 

I don't even trust my Pastor not to shock my children. He does it all the time, because his favorite book to discuss from the pulpit is the Bible. I do trust myself to be able to discuss things with my kids, though. I trust God to fill His book with things my kids need to hear, even if I wish I could shelter them from tough stuff.

 

I only trust myself and God. All other voices are vetted by myself alone.

 

I believe the buck stops with every parent. Even if someone introduces herself with a warning label, it is up to me to evaluate her book.

 

"I don't have time to look over curriculum, so I trust certain authors and publishers and I'm upset when they let me down."

 

But you were the one who handed the book to your child! There is no escaping that personal responsibility.

[Murphy101]

Many homeschoolers are teaching various grades in a given year. That is A LOT of prereading, and oftentimes they just do not have the time for that.

 

Well for goodness sakes, I have 7 different grades that I am home schooling this year. It's not that big a deal. It's not as though on my 7th run through teaching 1st grade I still have to preread everything for him. No, I've already done that and can now mostly focus on the the new content entering the house for the older grades I'm teaching for the first or second time.

 

They want to be able to trust an author. I have fictional authors I totally trust. I know I can buy one of their books and, I will not only enjoy it, but will not find anything objectionable. I also have authors who I KNOW are going to objectionable, and I know that going into the book.

 

I think with SWB it's a bit muddied. She's a homeschool proponent. She wrote SOTW. She's our homeschooling mentor. We trust her.

 

But then again, because of who she is, is it inconceivable that she might be held to a higher standard?

 

 

YES! I'm sorry if this offends SWB or knocks her off of someone's pedestal.

But SWB is nothing more than the rest of us. A wife, a mother, a home schooler, an employee, a house keeper, taxi, .... And the list goes on. She likes to write and it happens that some of her material is popular enough for her to make a living doing what she loves. Awesome win win for her and us.:)

 

There are lots of people on this board who are mentors and home school proponents. Many of them have done both for considerably longer and or with more children than SWB.

 

None of this means anyone is some kind of leader the rest of us should feel obligated to follow, much less follow blindly.

 

None of this indicates that any author should, or even can be, delegated with our duty to educate ourselves and make our own decisions as to what is appropriate for our own kids and family.

[justamouse]

:smilielol5:I'm sorry... but this really was hilarious. ;) HAAAAAAAA

 

*picksjawupofffloor*

 

:lol::lol::lol: That wasflipping hilarious.

 

 

"I don't have time to look over curriculum, so I trust certain authors and publishers and I'm upset when they let me down."

 

But you were the one who handed the book to your child! There is no escaping that personal responsibility.

 

I think that's what it boils down to.

[Murphy101]

The *only* reasonable approach is for a parent to be familiar with the materials she is handing to her child. There is no shortcut for that!

 

Home educators running around blaming authors. Baffling.

 

 

Me too!:confused:

[KnitWit]

I think it comes down to why anyone would think this is the responsibility of the author to guess what each reader's definition of 'inappropriate' is or what each reader finds offensive. As this thread itself shows, people do not draw that line in the same place. SWB's comment about all books 'need discernment' is spot on. You, and only you, know what your comfort level is. Only you have that yardstick. Therefore you are responsible for evaluating materials with your own personal yardstick. Yes that does make for more work for those who tend toward the more conservative. But that work shouldn't fall on the author to anticipate and adjust based on a guess as to what my offend. Someone is bound to be unhappy and they can't please everyone. If the sanitized something enough to make some people on this thread happy, others would be unhappy that it lacked primary sources and original content. So as parents/homeschoolers we have to make those discernments and not expect publishers to do it for us.

 

Heather

 

I continue to read and ponder this thread and I completely agree with you Heather. I think this is the bottom line.

[Melissa in CA]

Well for goodness sakes, I have 7 different grades that I am home schooling this year. It's not that big a deal.

 

But what's not a 'big deal' to you, can be a huge deal to a fellow homeschooler. ;) Every situation is different.

 

YES! I'm sorry if this offends SWB or knocks her off of someone's pedestal.

But SWB is nothing more than the rest of us. A wife, a mother, a home schooler, an employee, a house keeper, taxi, .... And the list goes on. She likes to write and it happens that some of her material is popular enough for her to make a living doing what she loves. Awesome win win for her and us.:)

 

There are lots of people on this board who are mentors and home school proponents. Many of them have done both for considerably longer and or with more children than SWB.

 

None of this means anyone is some kind of leader the rest of us should feel obligated to follow, much less follow blindly.

 

None of this indicates that any author should, or even can be, delegated with our duty to educate ourselves and make our own decisions as to what is appropriate for our own kids and family.

 

I agree with you, Martha. I don't put anyone on a pedestal....and despite what you and I think...many DO put SWB on that pedestal. Many. Many on here do, I've seen it time and time again (here as in this forum, not necessarily this thread). It is the way of life.

 

Many follow blindly. History shows that to be true. Is that the 'leaders' problem? No, but I wonder if they, as public figures, don't somehow have a responsibility to their 'public'. I don't know exactly what that responsibility should look like, or how I would define that, but it seems somehow rational to me that it would be so.

 

I LOVE that Classical Ed teaches us to be discerning, etc. But, I've found in my real life relationships, that most people are not discerning at all. If it's on TV, or in a book, or on the radio, or a website, then it MUST be true. :confused: It boggles the mind sometimes.

[KnitWit]

I agree with the others that both History and the Bible come with an implied warning label. It is not safe to go exploring History or Religion! Literature can also shock your socks off.

 

The *only* reasonable approach is for a parent to be familiar with the materials she is handing to her child. There is no shortcut for that!

 

Home educators running around blaming authors. Baffling.

 

"I trusted SWB, and this history book mentions sex!"

 

"I trusted Sonlight, and this science book has an unscheduled page about evolution!"

 

"I trusted Ken Ham so I stayed away from PHP and only bought books from AiG!"

 

We can't teach what we don't know. Mom needs to learn critical thinking, discernment, and personal responsibility if she ever wants her children to possess those traits.

 

I don't trust SWB. I like her very much, and use PHP materials in my homeschool, but I only trust myself to make decisions about the appropriateness of curriculum for my child.

 

I don't trust Sonlight. I adore Sonlight's Cores and use them for preschool through eighth grade, but I only trust myself to know which pages of each book are right for my family.

 

I don't even trust my Pastor not to shock my children. He does it all the time, because his favorite book to discuss from the pulpit is the Bible. I do trust myself to be able to discuss things with my kids, though. I trust God to fill His book with things my kids need to hear, even if I wish I could shelter them from tough stuff.

 

I only trust myself and God. All other voices are vetted by myself alone.

 

I believe the buck stops with every parent. Even if someone introduces herself with a warning label, it is up to me to evaluate her book.

 

"I don't have time to look over curriculum, so I trust certain authors and publishers and I'm upset when they let me down."

 

But you were the one who handed the book to your child! There is no escaping that personal responsibility.

 

great post

[tex-mex]

But, homeschooling is so very different from teaching a class of students. Many homeschoolers are teaching various grades in a given year. That is A LOT of prereading, and oftentimes they just do not have the time for that. They want to be able to trust an author.

 

Well, I have to disagree with you on that one. I personally think educating a group of 30 students is much easier than homeschooling. LOL ;) After being in the trenches of public schooling for a few decades and seeing the wide variety of teaching styles... I can say there are a lot of teachers who take the easy way out by mindlessly teaching verbatim from the boring dusty teacher manual and textbook. Very few public school teachers go over and beyond to give their students a quality education with using primary source materials to compliment the required textbooks. There are groups out there who do an amazing job -- I was fortunate to have taught with some.

 

I recall one year being selected by my school district to represent them in a County/State history committee to work on the state approved textbook for my grade level. I learned so much from that experience. And I also learned why education in public schools is a bureaucracy -- it took over 100 people in a series of monthly meetings to argue over one small detail (it was a weblink to compliment the textbook). And it took one year for the crazy link to get approved. But I got paid $$ a stipend for attending those meetings and the extracurricular work sure looked good on my professional resume. :D But it was also a 3-ring circus much like the old joke of how many __________ does it take to screw in a lightbulb, if you know what I mean.

 

I would come away from those committee meetings with so much wonderful resources and primary source readings to share with my district and site staff in a inservice format. One thing I could not understand was the typical attitude of the teachers. Some had an attitude of that information is too much stuff for me to study on my own, no thanks. Many thought teaching straight from the textbook was just fine for them as they were too busy to create a unit using primary source documents (i.e. Gold Rush, westward movement, pioneers, etc). Truthfully, many of these public servants were basically lazy. Unmotivated to help their pupils get a better understanding of the bigger history picture from the "sanitized" textbook -- with state approved primary source materials in a grade level lesson created by fellow teachers. No controversial materials. Really great units. FREE. I was dumbfounded to say the least.

 

Okay, I realize I am rambling. But I do have a point. ;)

 

I think it is so much harder to homeschool compared to teaching a roomful of students. You get to tailor the curriculum to your child's needs. In a regular school setting, the lesson is aimed to the average student and the gifted/learning disabled child get left out. Yes, you have to work your tail off already as a mom - cleaning, taxi driver, cooking, laundry, etc. And teach? Heavens. No one said homeschooling would be easy.

 

You have a huge responsibility on your shoulders. It should be taken with all due seriousness. Why would anyone with that opportunity to home educate their child go the easy route (like my fellow teachers) and allow outsiders tell them what to teach? SWB is doing a lot of work for us all by taking her extensive professional knowledge of history and condensing it into a series of books for homeschooling. (Thank you, SWB!) She is offering it to us to use in our homes. Primary source work cited. (Do you realize how much work she did for us??) Again, like everyone said, it is up to you to decide what is appropriate for your child in the privacy of your home. The buck stops with you as your child's tutor/teacher. God looks at you as the gatekeeper for their education. Would it not be wise to take up that duty and go beyond just "trusting" an author blindly (sorry SWB -- I do love ya) in investing TIME to create lessons or read what your child will read?

 

For you to state that "is a lot of pre-reading and I just don't have time for that" -- really baffles me, to say the least. :confused: Your statement kind of reminds me of my former teaching colleagues who would punch in their timecard and punch out to go home. Collect a paycheck. Grumble about the students and parents in the teacher's lounge. Balk at being offered free resources to enhance lessons that are dry and boring. And not go over and beyond to give their students a top-notch education as it is too much work.

 

We are in charge of our children's minds and futures. It is a high calling and not for the faint-of-heart. Honey, it is a LOT OF WORK. You will be learning along with your child and perhaps giving yourself a classical education that was denied to you. Whom among us are perfect teachers? (Hint: none) Whom among us have gaps in our homeschooling (Hint: lots of us. Also lots of public schoolteachers. BTDT ;)) We are not saying it is a perfect road to homeschool, by any means. I agree with Martha that hsing a lot of kids is not that difficult -- you have already familiarized yourself with the old material. Just keep up with the new stuff the older ones will learn for the following year. Or just keep up a week ahead of them. (Confession: many public school teachers do this. LOL)

 

I guess I am thunderstruck by the attitude of "someone should have warned me" or "I don't have time" to learn for myself. Wow. :001_huh: Sort of like accepting what you hear from the tv news as fact, sermons from the pulpit as theologically without error (or spin), and books to have a label on it warning the reader from opening the book and thinking for themselves. I apologize for rambling and getting on my soapbox... but oh... my... goodness. I am gobsmacked.

[Melissa in CA]

"I trusted Sonlight, and this science book has an unscheduled page about evolution!"

 

Yes, but SL is VERY good about disclaimers. ;) You will go into a scheduled SL book knowing if it's going to contain evolution/language/sexual situations/etc., because they let you know it is. ;)

 

 

We can't teach what we don't know. Mom needs to learn critical thinking, discernment, and personal responsibility if she ever wants her children to possess those traits.

 

If this is true, then I think many of us need to toss our kids into school because we can't know everything. Can't discern everything. Can't critically think through everything. Some homeschool moms are just barely squeaking by with teaching the basics. They NEED to be able to trust an author with their children. Some parents NEED...due to whatever (illness, depression...whatever) to hand their child a book and let the child teach himself and not have to worry that said child is going to run across something inappropriate.

 

Every parent teacher is DIFFERENT. I think it's very offensive to assume all must be so very perfect in their homeschooling abilities. Are they ultimately to blame for their choices? Yes. But good grief, let's show them some grace.

No one is blaming the author, they are just asking for help in making a discerning choice. Sheesh.

[Mrs Mungo]

Yes, but SL is VERY good about disclaimers. ;) You will go into a scheduled SL book knowing if it's going to contain evolution/language/sexual situations/etc., because they let you know it is. ;)

 

If this is true, then I think many of us need to toss our kids into school because we can't know everything. Can't discern everything. Can't critically think through everything. Some homeschool moms are just barely squeaking by with teaching the basics. They NEED to be able to trust an author with their children. Some parents NEED...due to whatever (illness, depression...whatever) to hand their child a book and let the child teach himself and not have to worry that said child is going to run across something inappropriate.

 

Every parent teacher is DIFFERENT. I think it's very offensive to assume all must be so very perfect in their homeschooling abilities. Are they ultimately to blame for their choices? Yes. But good grief, let's show them some grace.

No one is blaming the author, they are just asking for help in making a discerning choice. Sheesh.

 

Yes, there are homeschooling moms who don't want any sort of X content in their curricula. Yes, there are moms who want something easy and laid out. If you (general you) fit into both of those categories, then the classical model may not be for you. Go with Sonlight or ToG or one of the many, many programs that spoonfeeds it to you. Go for it. Those programs are there for those who want/need that. It isn't offensive to say "maybe the do-it-yourself-classical model is not for you."

[Melissa in CA]

Well, I have to disagree with you on that one. I personally think educating a group of 30 students is much easier than homeschooling. LOL ;) After being in the trenches of public schooling for a few decades and seeing the wide variety of teaching styles... I can say there are a lot of teachers who take the easy way out by mindlessly teaching verbatim from the boring dusty teacher manual and textbook. Very few public school teachers go over and beyond to give their students a quality education with using primary source materials to compliment the required textbooks. There are groups out there who do an amazing job -- I was fortunate to have taught with some.

 

I recall one year being selected by my school district to represent them in a County/State history committee to work on the state approved textbook for my grade level. I learned so much from that experience. And I also learned why education in public schools is a bureaucracy -- it took over 100 people in a series of monthly meetings to argue over one small detail (it was a weblink to compliment the textbook). And it took one year for the crazy link to get approved. But I got paid $$ a stipend for attending those meetings and the extracurricular work sure looked good on my professional resume. :D But it was also a 3-ring circus much like the old joke of how many __________ does it take to screw in a lightbulb, if you know what I mean.

 

I would come away from those committee meetings with so much wonderful resources and primary source readings to share with my district and site staff in a inservice format. One thing I could not understand was the typical attitude of the teachers. Some had an attitude of that information is too much stuff for me to study on my own, no thanks. Many thought teaching straight from the textbook was just fine for them as they were too busy to create a unit using primary source documents (i.e. Gold Rush, westward movement, pioneers, etc). Truthfully, many of these public servants were basically lazy. Unmotivated to help their pupils get a better understanding of the bigger history picture from the "sanitized" textbook -- with state approved primary source materials in a grade level lesson created by fellow teachers. No controversial materials. Really great units. FREE. I was dumbfounded to say the least.

 

Okay, I realize I am rambling. But I do have a point. ;)

 

I think it is so much harder to homeschool compared to teaching a roomful of students. You get to tailor the curriculum to your child's needs. In a regular school setting, the lesson is aimed to the average student and the gifted/learning disabled child get left out. Yes, you have to work your tail off already as a mom - cleaning, taxi driver, cooking, laundry, etc. And teach? Heavens. No one said homeschooling would be easy.

 

You have a huge responsibility on your shoulders. It should be taken with all due seriousness. Why would anyone with that opportunity to home educate their child go the easy route (like my fellow teachers) and allow outsiders tell them what to teach? SWB is doing a lot of work for us all by taking her extensive professional knowledge of history and condensing it into a series of books for homeschooling. (Thank you, SWB!) She is offering it to us to use in our homes. Primary source work cited. (Do you realize how much work she did for us??) Again, like everyone said, it is up to you to decide what is appropriate for your child in the privacy of your home. The buck stops with you as your child's tutor/teacher. God looks at you as the gatekeeper for their education. Would it not be wise to take up that duty and go beyond just "trusting" an author blindly (sorry SWB -- I do love ya) in investing TIME to create lessons or read what your child will read?

 

For you to state that "is a lot of pre-reading and I just don't have time for that" -- really baffles me, to say the least. :confused: Your statement kind of reminds me of my former teaching colleagues who would punch in their timecard and punch out to go home. Collect a paycheck. Grumble about the students and parents in the teacher's lounge. Balk at being offered free resources to enhance lessons that are dry and boring. And not go over and beyond to give their students a top-notch education as it is too much work.

 

We are in charge of our children's minds and futures. It is a high calling and not for the faint-of-heart. Honey, it is a LOT OF WORK. You will be learning along with your child and perhaps giving yourself a classical education that was denied to you. Whom among us are perfect teachers? (Hint: none) Whom among us have gaps in our homeschooling (Hint: lots of us. Also lots of public schoolteachers. BTDT ;)) We are not saying it is a perfect road to homeschool, by any means. I agree with Martha that hsing a lot of kids is not that difficult -- you have already familiarized yourself with the old material. Just keep up with the new stuff the older ones will learn for the following year. Or just keep up a week ahead of them. (Confession: many public school teachers do this. LOL)

 

I guess I am thunderstruck by the attitude of "someone should have warned me" or "I don't have time" to learn for myself. Wow. :001_huh: Sort of like accepting what you hear from the tv news as fact, sermons from the pulpit as theologically without error (or spin), and books to have a label on it warning the reader from opening the book and thinking for themselves. I apologize for rambling and getting on my soapbox... but oh... my... goodness. I am gobsmacked.

 

Um...I believe my point was that it IS harder to homeschool various ages than school a classroom of children. :confused: And having two public school teachers...oops THREE...in the family, I totally know what they go through.

 

I'm only homeschooling one now, so I have plenty of time to pre-read...but, in reference to my post(s), I was not talking about me personally.

 

I actually have no disagreements with your post, but the bolded part kind of cracked me up. You act as if SWB wrote those books for us and has GIVEN them to us as a personal gift. She is making a living off of them you know. It wasn't a wholly selfless act on her part. ;)

Edited April 4, 2011 by Melissa in CA

[tex-mex]

Um...I believe my point was that it IS harder to homeschool various ages than school a classroom of children. :confused: And having two public school teachers...oops THREE...in the family, I totally know what they go through.

I misunderstood your original point. Got it. :D

 

I'm only homeschooling one now, so I have plenty of time to pre-read...but, in reference to my post(s) I was not talking about me personally.

Say what, girlfriend??? One child right now? Oh, goodness. :lol: (I have an only son - special needs.)

 

Who are you referring to? Curious minds want to know. Are you speaking up for those you know personally?

I actually have no disagreements with your post, but the bolded part kind of cracked me up. You act as if SWB wrote those books for us and has GIVEN them to us as a personal gift. She is making a living off of them you know. It wasn't a wholly selfless act on her part. ;)

LOL -- Do you realize how much work it is to create lessons alone based on primary source material (your relatives who are teachers can attest to this)?? Yes, I am very appreciative of SWB work in book form. I do not have to re-invent the wheel on that one!! And yes, I realize she is getting $$$ paid... like hell-loooo? The worker is due her wages. And I would be willing to pay her every penny as it is a lot of work to compile much of that in book form for the homeschool market.

 

Hmmmmm. Me thinks you have some grudge against WTM, perhaps?

[Melissa in CA]

 

Who are you referring to? Curious minds want to know. Are you speaking up for those you know personally?

 

Nope! No one personally...just for those 'general' folks out there. Playing devils advocate. :lol:

 

LOL -- Do you realize how much work it is to create lessons alone based on primary source material (your relatives who are teachers can attest to this)?? Yes, I am very appreciative of SWB work in book form. I do not have to re-invent the wheel on that one!! And yes, I realize she is getting $$$ paid... like hell-loooo? The worker is due her wages. And I would be willing to pay her every penny as it is a lot of work to compile much of that in book form for the homeschool market.

 

Oh no, I totally understood what you were saying. I have no problem with the worker getting her wages. It just struck me funny the way you worded it. ;)

 

Hmmmmm. Me thinks you have some grudge against WTM, perhaps?

 

Nope! Not at all! I just see that the OP, and the silent others, may have a legitimate case for wanting a tiny heads-up. I just don't see that as an unreasonable request from a fellow homeschooling author. I think, perhaps, many see SWB as more a friend than a business woman...and would see a lil warning from her on her website as a friendly courtesy. I don't know. I guess that's too much to ask from her...I get that. But it doesn't make the desire for such diminish in the minds of those who want it. ;)

[FaithManor]

Hey guys, just so you know....Susan got a stipend to begin writing the Norton series and it wasn't any great and wonderful amount of money. Her average pay out for each book sold is about $1.25! Yep, that's it. $1.25 profit.

 

She is making some money. but at any time a bookstore returns copies due to slow sales, over ordering, etc. Norton takes that out of her royalty check. For a book like this, over it's shelf life, if it sells 250,000 total for it's years in print, it has done well. If it sells 50,000 copies in it's first year, it has done well. This is not a Harry Potter novel that sells millions each year. Nope, there isn't any kind of wealthy richness that comes from writing textbooks and especially when you break the income down by the literally thousands of hours it takes to write one and the fact that most of the writing stipend goes to paying copyright royalties to use photos of cultural antiquities (on the low end $300.00 each and on the high end several thousand) - photos of which are owned by others and cannot be reprinted for a book which will be sold, without permission and fees - to say nothing of paying the map makers. Oh, and then there was the cost of research at Cambridge and Oxford for access to primary sources that are not available here. Nope, not gettin' rich!

 

Sorry, that was really off topic. But, I do think it speaks to the kind of person SWB is...she had to have a bigger motivation for putting herself through this writing process than just money. It's not worth the money. Better to go write the next great Scholastic novel!

 

Faith

[Mrs Mungo]

Hey guys, just so you know....Susan got a stipend to begin writing the Norton series and it wasn't any great and wonderful amount of money. Her average pay out for each book sold is about $1.25! Yep, that's it. $1.25 profit.

 

She is making some money. but at any time a bookstore returns copies due to slow sales, over ordering, etc. Norton takes that out of her royalty check. For a book like this, over it's shelf life, if it sells 250,000 total for it's years in print, it has done well. If it sells 50,000 copies in it's first year, it has done well. This is not a Harry Potter novel that sells millions each year. Nope, there isn't any kind of wealthy richness that comes from writing textbooks and especially when you break the income down by the literally thousands of hours it takes to write one and the fact that most of the writing stipend goes to paying copyright royalties to use photos of cultural antiquities (on the low end $300.00 each and on the high end several thousand) - photos of which are owned by others and cannot be reprinted for a book which will be sold, without permission and fees - to say nothing of paying the map makers. Oh, and then there was the cost of research at Cambridge and Oxford for access to primary sources that are not available here. Nope, not gettin' rich!

 

Sorry, that was really off topic. But, I do think it speaks to the kind of person SWB is...she had to have a bigger motivation for putting herself through this writing process than just money. It's not worth the money. Better to go write the next great Scholastic novel!

 

Faith

 

:iagree: These books are a labor of love, and a great gift to the hsing community.

[tex-mex]

I do think it speaks to the kind of person SWB is...she had to have a bigger motivation for putting herself through this writing process than just money. It's not worth the money. Better to go write the next great Scholastic novel!

 

Faith

A-yup. :iagree:

 

I think she is doing all of this (i.e. paying $$ for us to use this board on a server, writing, PHP, and more) as it is her passion. I'm just kind of tired with the bashing at this point -- the whole ugly Ham ordeal, HS conventions, and now people nipping at her heels for warning labels. Sorry folks. :glare: I think she has a lot on her plate to deal with -- but everyone is entitled to their opinion. Legitimate complaint from the OP or others being a devil's advocate. Thanks Faith for pointing out she is not doing this for the money.

[Melissa in CA]

A-yup. :iagree:

 

I think she is doing all of this (i.e. paying $$ for us to use this board on a server, writing, PHP, and more) as it is her passion. I'm just kind of tired with the bashing at this point -- the whole ugly Ham ordeal, HS conventions, and now people nipping at her heels for warning labels. Sorry folks. :glare: I think she has a lot on her plate to deal with -- but everyone is entitled to their opinion. Legitimate complaint from the OP or others being a devil's advocate. Thanks Faith for pointing out she is not doing this for the money.

 

Yes, thanks Faith! :D

 

I'm not at all aware of any SWB bashing thats been going on, or anything about Ken Ham(??), so I am personally sorry if I have contributed to it in some way. :grouphug:

 

You know, I was just thinking to myself (while in the shower where I do all my great thinking) that all this conversation has made me want to purchase SWB's book! :lol: We will be doing Ancients again next year and it might be a good supplement to add to what I already have planned..."plow" comment and all! ha!...so I'm off to check it out. It will give me something to preread over the summer, eh? :D

 

I also wanted to say how much I have enjoyed all of the articulate and informative responses from everyone. You all inspire me.

[Nan in Mass]

But the help is there. On the jacket of TWTM. It says, "TWTM will instruct you, step by step, on how to give your child an academically rigorous, comprehensive education from preschool through high school - one that will train him or her to read, to think, to understand, to be well-rounded and curious about learning. Veteran home educators Jessie Wise and Susan Wise Bauer outline the classical pattern of education called the trivium..." And inside, in the overview, on page xxii, it says:

 

The Well-Trained Mind is a parent's guide to a do-it-yourself, academically rigorous, comprehensive education - a classical education.

What is classical education?

It is language-intensive...

It is history-intensive , providing students with a comprehensive view of human endeavor from the beginning until now.

 

And on page 489, which is about Great Books:

 

... the focus of rhetoric-stage history is on ideas rather than on facts. The study of great books allows the past to speak for itself, combining history, creative writing, philosophy, politics, and ethics into a seamless whole.

 

And then a disclaimer about lists:

 

List making is dangerous. We've left important books off this list. ... You will encounter many lists o fimportant books as you home-school, created by people of different ideologies; and those lists inevitably reflect those ideologies. You can always add or drop titles from our list.

 

(I made some words bold.)

 

-Nan

Edited April 4, 2011 by Nan in Mass

[jewellsmommy]

OP:

 

I feel where you were coming from :001_smile:. I have a mix of thoughts from reading the thread. I must also admit to not quite getting the plow quote right away because I did not have the surrounding context. I get it now.

 

I might have been slightly taken-a-back because I honestly do not recall ever encountering anything like that in high school. Now, I was also not impressed by my own education, and that is one of the reasons I chose to home educate. I was never asked to read many (almost none, honestly) of the books my dc will be required to read (the books mentioned often on this forum, great literature etc.). The se*ual things in our history books were so and so had an affair or so and so born out of wedlock or such. This quote is different because some young men or women might have to ask what this means or why the field is assumed wet or some such question.

 

All that being said...I, personally, could (and have) answered such questions straight forward without blushing. But, I totally understand someone else not wanting to be in that position.

 

As far as warnings go... It might seem obvious to some that you will come across this type of material; it might not be obvious to others. That is not the problem for or responsibility of the author, I agree. But, it could be an additional service of the author. To that I also agree. There is definitely a difference between assigning responsibility and requesting an additional service. Do I think SWB should have had a note? No. Do I think she could choose to offer a heads up note? Sure.

 

Finally...If a warning/heads up/note is what you would appreciate, I can offer a suggestion. I can't speak to other curriculum, but TOG does provide something like this. Now, is what they choose to give you a "heads up" about going to be enough for your tastes? I don't know, we are all so different. But, they offer little notes such as "take note that this book contains material of a sexual nature that you may wish to....." I have seen this a few times but I don't always pay attention to the older sections so I can't speak to how often it appears.

 

 

Hope this helps.

Edited April 4, 2011 by jewellsmommy

[Savermom]

 

I'm just kind of tired with the bashing at this point -- the whole ugly Ham ordeal, HS conventions, and now people nipping at her heels for warning labels.

 

I'm tired of the bashing as well. It's not fair to lump this discussion in with the other negative stuff as I wasn't bashing SWB.

 

 

I'm tired of comments being spun to sound like severe, uncompromising, harsh ideas. Saying it would be nice to know ahead of time if a hsbook contains sexual content is a far cry from "nipping at her heels for warning labels." Or "demanding them."

 

Clearly this evokes strong emotions and has become a debate unlikely to sway either side. Therefore, I, the OP, am bidding everyone adieu. Although I truely do appreciate all the time you all have given to address my concern, it has left me with an unpleasant aftertaste.

 

As I do love 99% of HOAW, we will continue reading it with my correction tape in hand. I've chosen, odd as it may seem, to cover the sexual referenced sentences with correction tape for my future children as my means of dealing with this topic.

[Rosie_0801]

I am not suggesting that SWB define inappropriate for anyone. But she does know that the book contains sexual references, does she not? (Please understand, I have NOT read this book and am actually arguing from ignorance here! ;)) She does recommend it for high school though, does she not? She does have a very large homeschool following, does she not? Many homeschoolers are Christian, and often very sensitive to sexual topics, are they not? Is it SO inconceivable that Peacehill Press put a short statement on their website that the book contains many first hand historical accounts that some, more sensitive, homeschoolers may find objectionable? A lil "heads-up" so to speak.

 

There's a few issues there.

1. How can we expect an author to recommend against her own product? To go against her own pedagogy? The pedagogy most of us have already read in a handy volume called The Well Trained Mind? The pedagogy that can be investigated for free on the website, for those who don't have the dosh to fork out for the book?

2. These sensitive Christians she'd be protecting read worse in their Bibles, as has been previously stated in this thread. How is anyone supposed to know that was is considered appropriate reading in one book isn't in another?

3. From my observations, Americans tend to be against the 'Nanny State,' yet here we are asking for someone else to take responsibility for our parenting, inside our own homes.

 

If I read, as part of the blurb on this book, "Be aware, this volume contains sexual references," I'd say "Hey! That's not cool!" And I wouldn't buy it. I haven't yet read all such references in the book, but I have read what is contained in the first chapter, and I didn't even bat an eyelid. Again, what good does it do Susan or I to warn me against buying something I have no problem with?

 

Many follow blindly. History shows that to be true. Is that the 'leaders' problem? No, but I wonder if they, as public figures, don't somehow have a responsibility to their 'public'. I don't know exactly what that responsibility should look like,

 

Didn't it look something like "It is a parent's responsibility to check material before giving it to their children." That's pretty clear advice.

 

No one is blaming the author, they are just asking for help in making a discerning choice. Sheesh.

 

Well my recommendation is to post here on the high school/self ed board asking if there is sexual references in any of the books on the list they are considering.

 

Rosie

[Colleen in NS]

Hi Colleen,

 

I try to limit the dosage. :001_smile:

 

I generally avoid really painful stuff when I can. But I don't shy away from it completely; I don't feel like I'm allowed to if I'm going to educate. (Please no flames - that is a PERSONAL conviction. Just stating it here for reference - I'm NOT projecting that conviction on to someone else at all!)

 

Ultimately, I would like to put feet to my feelings; I suspect that's probably the answer. I think getting involved in social change is probably the best way to provide an outlet to the outrage.

 

Unfortunately, I still have a job here to do at home. Dh has an extremely demanding job. Probably will clock 75-80 hrs. this week. So I'm committed to being a presence in my house until the last little man marches out into the great wide world. Then? We'll see! But I think DOING something is probably the best response to discovering something. Or at least, I think it will be for me. (And if I recall - I'm preaching to the choir on this one. You've LIVED this, my friend!)

 

In the meantime, I try not to purposefully avoid the truth, but I try never to wallow. I can't take it. It hurts so very, very much! Suffocating! (And I'm talking about the really sad stuff in history here. As I recall, there is nothing in HoAW that causes a problem in our house for high schoolers. )

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

Hi Janice,

 

Yes, you've recalled correctly - you're preaching to the choir, and the choir appreciates it. :) Thanks again - I always love reading your insights.

 

List making is dangerous. We've left important books off this list. ... You will encounter many lists o fimportant books as you home-school, created by people of different ideologies; and those lists inevitably reflect those ideologies. You can always add or drop titles from our list.

 

I remember when I first read this - it was sorta scary! First of all, I didn't even know most of the books on the list. Second of all, I wanted someone to tell me what to do, so I was depending on these lists for the future. But the more I read about how important it is to read books critically myself, or at least learn how to talk about issues in books (history/literature/whatever) as they come up during my children's reading, the easier it gets to do so.

 

Probably a lot of you will think this is really silly, but I only recently let my kids read the Harry Potter books (I was going to have them wait til "later."). Why? Oh, I was going by vague notions I'd read about the "evil" going on in them, and the "influence" the books could have on my kids. Had I read them? No. I finally decided last year, when my ds kept begging me and one day said to me, "Mom, how about if I *tell* you all about the book after I read it and we could have a literature discussion??" :lol: How could I say no to that. He read them all, dd read some of them, and I have heard non-stop Harry Potter chatter for almost a year now and none of my fears materialized. I think it's because I'm learning how to navigate these waters.

 

Although I truely do appreciate all the time you all have given to address my concern, it has left me with an unpleasant aftertaste.

 

As I do love 99% of HOAW, we will continue reading it with my correction tape in hand. I've chosen, odd as it may seem, to cover the sexual referenced sentences with correction tape for my future children as my means of dealing with this topic.

 

I hope your aftertaste will disappear, because I'm pretty most on this thread would respect your decision to use correction tape.

[Xander]

2. These sensitive Christians she'd be protecting read worse in their Bibles, as has been previously stated in this thread. How is anyone supposed to know that was is considered appropriate reading in one book isn't in another?

 

<snip>

 

I haven't yet read all such references in the book, but I have read what is contained in the first chapter, and I didn't even bat an eyelid.

 

 

If you have a squiz at p.581, it may shed some light on why some fundamentalists might have a problem with this book in particular.

 

I applaud SWB for /not/ excising this. You simply can't study classics in any depth without having at least a general awareness of such background.

[elizabeth]

:iagree: These books are a labor of love, and a great gift to the hsing community.

 

I agree and think that down the road you will see these regarded as the standard against which other high school texts for home education are judged.

[Murphy101]

There's a few issues there.

1. How can we expect an author to recommend against her own product? To go against her own pedagogy? The pedagogy most of us have already read in a handy volume called The Well Trained Mind? The pedagogy that can be investigated for free on the website, for those who don't have the dosh to fork out for the book?

2. These sensitive Christians she'd be protecting read worse in their Bibles, as has been previously stated in this thread. How is anyone supposed to know that was is considered appropriate reading in one book isn't in another?

3. From my observations, Americans tend to be against the 'Nanny State,' yet here we are asking for someone else to take responsibility for our parenting, inside our own homes

 

Didn't it look something like "It is a parent's responsibility to check material before giving it to their children." That's pretty clear advice.

 

 

I whole-heartedly agree!

[tex-mex]

 

I hope your aftertaste will disappear, because I'm pretty most on this thread would respect your decision to use correction tape.

:iagree: I have no problems with the use of correction tape either. (I edit a lot myself -- recently the Comic Book History of the Universe. ;))

 

Savermom: I'm sorry you feel this way. I understand your concerns. Many times a thread never stays on topic (it does go down rabbit holes) and has a life of its own. I think I can speak for many that we do not wish you goodbye by any means. Get to know us. We are a outspoken group -- but really quite tolerant compared to other boards. And as you can see, fiercely protective of Susan Wise Bauer as this is her board.

[Nicole M]

:iagree: I have no problems with the use of correction tape either. (I edit a lot myself -- recently the Comic Book History of the Universe. ;))

 

Savermom: I'm sorry you feel this way. I understand your concerns. Many times a thread never stays on topic (it does go down rabbit holes) and has a life of its own. I think I can speak for many that we do not wish you goodbye by any means. Get to know us. We are a outspoken group -- but really quite tolerant compared to other boards. And as you can see, fiercely protective of Susan Wise Bauer as this is her board.

 

I've started a few threads that went downhill fast. So I know how it feels when things go in a direction you did not intend.

 

But here's the thing -- this board is, itself, a great way to find out all the inside scoop on a book or program. If you don't have time to pre-read, do a little digging here, and you may find the disclaimer would have wished to see on the book. Heaven knows I've passed on some books based on what I have seen here (though, sometimes, it's the flavor of a "good" review that makes me realize a book won't work for us ;)).

[Savermom]

I've started a few threads that went downhill fast. So I know how it feels when things go in a direction you did not intend.

 

But here's the thing -- this board is, itself, a great way to find out all the inside scoop on a book or program. If you don't have time to pre-read, do a little digging here, and you may find the disclaimer would have wished to see on the book. Heaven knows I've passed on some books based on what I have seen here (though, sometimes, it's the flavor of a "good" review that makes me realize a book won't work for us ;)).

 

Oh, I agree. This board is a wealth of knowledge! I meant that I was saying farewell to this thread, not the board. I felt no need to comment further. Until now. :D

 

OK, adieu to this thread! :auto:

[Mrs Mungo]

If you have a squiz at p.581, it may shed some light on why some fundamentalists might have a problem with this book in particular.

 

Again, nobody was raped to death and chopped into bits. Nobody had sex with their dad. Nobody said, "hm, I fancy her, think I'll send her hubby into the front lines so that I can get into her pants." So, no, I don't understand why it needs a label and The Holy Bible does not.

[Slartibartfast]

How about when everyone was circumcized and then while they were recovering they killed them all?

 

Really? Did you have to circumcise them first for that?

[Mrs Mungo]

How about when everyone was circumcised and then while they were recovering they killed them all?

 

Really? Did you have to circumcise them first for that?

 

That was pretty mean.

[Xander]

2. These sensitive Christians she'd be protecting read worse in their Bibles, as has been previously stated in this thread. How is anyone supposed to know that was is considered appropriate reading in one book isn't in another?

<snip>

I haven't yet read all such references in the book, but I have read what is contained in the first chapter, and I didn't even bat an eyelid.

 

 

If you have a squiz at p.581, it may shed some light on why some fundamentalists might have a problem with this book in particular.

 

Again, nobody was raped to death and chopped into bits. Nobody had sex with their dad. Nobody said, "hm, I fancy her, think I'll send her hubby into the front lines so that I can get into her pants." So, no, I don't understand why it needs a label and The Holy Bible does not.

 

Nor do I! I think I've made that fairly clear over the course of several posts.

 

I was merely explaining to Rosie (who hasn't yet read the entire book) why some fundamentalists may be treating mature content in HOAW differently from mature content in the Bible.

 

I don't think that anyone could produce a book about ancient history aimed at adults and high-schoolers, expunge all references to the fact that some ancient Greek men paired up with other men and still maintain academic integrity. However, I can see why some fundamentalists might object to that material. I think it's terribly sad that some people would see that as a worse thing for teenagers to be aware of than the gory details of wars, massacres and so on, but I can recognise that, sad as it is, that's how things are in certain circles.

 

As for warnings, I don't see any need for them. Anyone who is so ignorant of classics that they have zero awareness that mature content is likely to come up really ought to educate themselves about the field /before/ deciding they wish their children to study it. If they then choose a completely different approach to education, that's fine. If they decide to provide their own kids with a selective version, that's up to them. Anyone who is not completely ignorant of classics will be aware that, if they have a problem with certain aspects of the field, they need to ask a few questions before deciding which books to use. Again, if they decide to take a different approach, omit certain books or modify certain resources, that's totally up to them. But I'd like to hope that they wouldn't insult the intelligence of other people by suggesting that they wouldn't be able to figure this out for themselves without the aid of a warning.

 

Quite apart from that, there also the fact that such a warning would also convey an implied criticism of anyone choosing to ignore it. If a book is labeled as having 'inappropriate content', that suggests that anyone using it with a high-schooler is willfully exposing him to something he 'should' be protected from. What if books that have been sanitized carried a warning, so that people looking for academic rigor could avoid them? Wouldn't fundamentalists find that a tad insulting?

(Just to be clear, I think that a 'dumbed-down' label would be every bit as bad as an 'inappropriate' label.)

Edited April 5, 2011 by Xander
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