history narration DD7

[Kuovonne]

DD7 wrote this history narration today. She read the section (3 paragraphs) and summarized it on a timeline index card.

 

****

The Pilgrims came to America in the Mayflower. With the help of a English speaking indian named Sqanto they found food. Then they had a big feast called Thanksgiving.

****

 

She made several technical errors in writing:

- "a English ..." should use the article "an English ..."

- "indian" should be capitalized "Indian"

- "Sqanto" should be spelled "Squanto"

- there should be a comma between "Squanto" and "they"

Since it was a first draft, I'm not worried about these errors. Currently, I don't have her edit her original writing; she works on those skills through dictation.

 

She also omitted the reason the Pilgrims came to America, so I need to work with her on picking out main ideas.

 

Comments?

[2_girls_mommy]

I don't think there should be a comma personally anyway. The first part of the sentence is just a prepositional phrase.

 

I don't have my 7 yr olds write their narrations on their own, so I wouldn't even worry about the punctuation errors. I would have them dictate it to me, correcting any errors as we go orally, and having them repeat it correctly. Then I have them copy it in their own writing. That takes care of those minor errors. I think it is a good narration of the main points. But talking through the narration together can help you to lead her to the points that you think she should be noticing as well. If this were my youngest who is just beginning narration this year in 1st grade, I probably wouldn't point out anything about her topics. I just like to hear what she comes up with at this point after talking through the comprehension questions in SOTW. By next year at age 7 (her 2nd year) I will begin to lead her a little more.

[Kuovonne]

But talking through the narration together can help you to lead her to the points that you think she should be noticing as well.

 

Thanks. Yes, I need to do more of this.

 

 

I don't think there should be a comma personally anyway. The first part of the sentence is just a prepositional phrase.

 

Yes, it is just a prepositional phrase, but it is such a long introductory prepositional phrase that I think it deserves a comma.

 

I don't have my 7 yr olds write their narrations on their own, so I wouldn't even worry about the punctuation errors.

 

DD prefers to write her own narrations directly. Her errors in convention are usually fairly minor. Sometimes she is willing to make the changes. This time she didn't want to, and she is still young enough that I don't require it.

[Haiku]

DD prefers to write her own narrations directly.

 

My understanding is that SWB suggests that parents write the narrations for kids at this age precisely so they don't get in the habit of making these types of errors. The idea is that when kids make the errors, the errors become ingrained, and it's better to avoid training in errors.

 

Were it me, and my dd wanted to write her own narrations, I would sit with her and gently correct the errors before she makes them.

 

This time she didn't want to, and she is still young enough that I don't require it.

 

It seems the we differ in philosophy, but to me, now is exactly the time to require that errors be corrected. If errors are allowed to go uncorrected now, it will be harder to require the students to make them when they get older. The old, "I was good enough then" syndrome.

 

Tara

[Kuovonne]

It seems the we differ in philosophy, but to me, now is exactly the time to require that errors be corrected.

 

I guess we differ in philosophy.

 

I don't force DD to make minor editing corrections to her *original writing* except the few times we take a piece all the way through the writing process. She has a hard enough time simply thinking what to say when writing on assigned topics without worrying about minor mistakes. I want her to know that getting ideas into words on paper is more important than spelling and punctuation, at least in the drafting stage of writing.

 

On the other hand, I am extremely picky about mistakes when DD takes dictation, and DD knows it. Plus, I have seen the skills gradually transfer from dictation to her original writing, so I'm not worried about her thinking that errors are okay.

[Kuovonne]

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I listed the spelling and punctuation errors so that people would know that I was already aware of those issues and am not concerned with them.

 

It sounds like I am on the wrong track, and I *should* be concerned with these errors and focus on them, rather than other issues with her writing. Is that correct?

[Haiku]

It sounds like I am on the wrong track, and I *should* be concerned with these errors and focus on them, rather than other issues with her writing. Is that correct?

 

I would say that depends on whose philosophy of writing you follow.

 

She has a hard enough time simply thinking what to say when writing on assigned topics without worrying about minor mistakes.

 

This is exactly why SWB, and other proponents of copywork and narration, suggest the parents write the narrations for their young kids. It divorces the mechanics of the process from the mental exercise of the process. If you read about SWB's philosophy, it's that for most young kids, trying to process the information, come up with something to say, AND pay attention to the mechanics of writing is too much.

 

Perhaps you disagree. There are copious ideas about children and writing out there. Many people are proponents of exactly what you described ... getting the kids writing and having them focus on their ideas and not worrying about the mechanics.

 

Tara

[Kuovonne]

I would say that depends on whose philosophy of writing you follow.

 

Well, my philosophy of writing has been developing over the last few years. I didn't have much of one at all before I started homeschooling.

 

She has a hard enough time simply thinking what to say when writing on assigned topics without worrying about minor mistakes.

 

This is exactly why SWB, and other proponents of copywork and narration, suggest the parents write the narrations for their young kids. It divorces the mechanics of the process from the mental exercise of the process. If you read about SWB's philosophy, it's that for most young kids, trying to process the information, come up with something to say, AND pay attention to the mechanics of writing is too much.

 

I've read about SWB's philosophy and like some of it. My DD seems to focus her thoughts better when she's writing versus when I'm scribing for her. Having to adjust her thought process to my typing ability distracts her.

 

At what point do parents stop writing the narrations for their kids? How many mistakes is few enough that a child can write her first drafts by herself?

 

Do the quantity and type of mistakes in DD's writing sample indicate that she makes too many mistakes to write her own first drafts?

 

Do DD's mistakes indicate that she isn't ready to work on other aspects of writing beyond mechanics? If she could work on other aspects of writing, which ones?

Edited April 7, 2011 by Kuovonne

[Haiku]

At what point do parents stop writing the narrations for their kids?

 

I started transitioning my dd9 at the end of second grade, when she was 8 1/4. She now writes about 90% of her narrations. Occasionally she balks and I write them for her.

 

Ds8 1/4 really doesn't write any of his own. His handwriting is still poor, and although I have seen a lot of progress in his mechanics this year, he still would not be able to integrate all the parts of writing his own narration. We still use copywork and dictation as his main writing exercises.

 

How many mistakes is few enough that a child can write her first drafts by herself?

 

I don't know that there is a defined number of mistakes. I think the point is not the quantity of mistakes but the parent being there to discuss/prevent the mistakes in the first place.

 

Do the quantity and type of mistakes in DD's writing sample indicate that she makes too many mistakes to write her own first drafts?

 

Again, I think it depends on your writing philosophy. If you follow SWB's, then I'd say yes.

 

Do DD's mistakes indicate that she isn't ready to work on other aspects of writing beyond mechanics?

 

Narration (oral) is working on other aspects of her writing.

 

If she could work on other aspects of writing, which ones?

 

That depends on what you are looking for. When dd9 reached the point that I felt narration and dictation had become too routine for her, I started her in Evan-Moor's Paragraph Writing book. She has learned how to create a topic sentence, add three supporting details, and close with a concluding sentence. We also do Imitation in Writing every once in a while. Dd9 is what I consider to be a strong writer. With ds8, as I mentioned, we still focus exclusively on narration, copywork, and dictation.

 

I guess my question would be, do you think your dd would be more challenged and able to create longer, more detailed narrations if she were not the one writing? SWB suggests that a child use a tape recorder. She could dictate her narration into the tape recorder and you could then transcribe it for her. She could then copy it. That way her thought process would not be tied to your typing process, and you could work on longer, more complex narrations with her.

 

I am by no means a writing expert, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

 

Tara

[Kuovonne]

I started transitioning my dd9 at the end of second grade

 

My DD is also at the end of second grade. She has decent handwriting and rarely makes mistakes when taking dictation. She *hates* copywork.

 

I don't know that there is a defined number of mistakes. I think the point is not the quantity of mistakes but the parent being there to discuss/prevent the mistakes in the first place.

 

How do you know when the parent does not need to be present to discuss mistakes as they are being written and save the discussion until after the fact?

 

Narration (oral) is working on other aspects of her writing.

 

Ah, yes, I do forget that oral narration is also considered part of writing. I tend to forget and count only written narrations as part of writing. Thank you for the reminder. DD's oral narrations are very different from her written narrations. Her oral narrations are much wordier, less organized, and punctuated with hand gestures.

 

I guess my question would be, do you think your dd would be more challenged and able to create longer, more detailed narrations if she were not the one writing?

 

Her oral narrations *are* longer and more detailed than her written narrations. However, they ramble and are *very* unstructured, as she talks while thinking. If I try to write down her oral narrations, they are even more disorganized and fragmented. In contrast, her written narrations are always in complete sentences and in an order that makes sense. If I slow her down to think before speaking, her oral narrations are much like her written ones.

 

I am by no means a writing expert, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

 

Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge.

[Capt_Uhura]

I keep coming back to this thread but haven't congealed my thoughts just yet.

[Halcyon]

now is exactly the time to require that errors be corrected. If errors are allowed to go uncorrected now, it will be harder to require the students to make them when they get older.

Tara

:iagree::iagree:

[2_girls_mommy]

A couple of thoughts on the unorganized, wordy oral narrations: The parent, from what I understand, is to lead them in this. You should help them reword the sentence. WTM even says to have them repeat it back to you correctly as you write it down correctly. This is how we have done SOTW narrations.

 

WTM has 3rd graders doing their own narrations by the end of the year. For us, we have transitioned to my 3rd grader doing mostly her own literature narrations on paper on her own and turning them in to me to look over. I correct any misspellings or punctuation and help her with anything that is unclear. We haven't transitioned to that w/history yet, but will by the end of the summer. SOTW3 can be pretty complicated, and my dd still needs help focusing on the main ideas with it. After 3 years she is getting pretty good at it though.

[Haiku]

 

How do you know when the parent does not need to be present to discuss mistakes as they are being written and save the discussion until after the fact?

 

I am still there when dd9 writes her narrations. Usually I will just say, "Oops," when starts to make a mistake. I don't usually tell her what the mistake is; it's her job to figure it out. Today we did a narration on an entire chapter of SOTW (the Mexican-American War). Because it was a huge amount of information, I walked her through much of it, and it was a far more mom-directed narration than usual. Most of the time I just say, "Use 3-4 sentences to tell me what happened in this section," and I keep an eye on her writing as I work with her brother.

 

Ok, in thinking about it I guess I would say that when my dd reached the point where she could identify the error when I said, "Oops" or "Which spelling/punctuation rule did you break here?" is when I started giving her freer reign in writing her own narrations.

 

Her oral narrations *are* longer and more detailed than her written narrations. However, they ramble and are *very* unstructured, as she talks while thinking.

 

I guess this is where I would say that the parent takes an active role in shaping the thoughts into coherent sentences. For example, dd says, "The Americans settled in Texas but they didn't want to agree to the rules like becoming Catholic even though the U.S. government had said they would agree to them and the Mexicans were mad that there were so many people speaking English in Mexico and the dictator down there made a rule that the people in Texas had to have a permit to have a gun and this made the Texans mad and then they decided they wanted to have their freedom so they made a Constitution and put Sam Houston in charge of their army," mom would step in periodically and restate:

 

The Americans settled in Texas but they didn't want to agree to the rules like becoming Catholic even though the U.S. government had said they would agree to them and the Mexicans were mad that there were so many people speaking English in Mexico

 

Mom says, "When the Americans settled in Texas, they didn't follow the rules they'd agreed to, such as becoming Catholic."

 

and the Mexicans were mad that there were so many people speaking English in Mexico and the dictator down there made a rule that the people in Texas had to have a permit to have a gun

 

Mom says, "Mexicans were angry that so many people in Texas spoke English instead of Spanish. Santa Anna, the Mexican dictator, passed a law that people in Texas had to have a permit to own a gun."

 

and this made the Texans mad and then they decided they wanted to have their freedom so they made a Constitution and put Sam Houston in charge of their army"

 

Mom says, "This angered the Texans. They decided they wanted their freedom, so they wrote a constitution and put Sam Houston in charge of their army."

 

This gets written down, and dd repeats it.

 

It does give the child less freedom in their writing, I know. But I think it's an important step in helping kids begin to formulate their thoughts in a writing-acceptable manner. SWB has said that fuzzy thinking produces fuzzy writing. It may not be so apparent when narrations are only three sentences long, but I think it could become a problem when kids are expected to produce more complex, precise writing. Maybe some kids don't need this, but I have seen a great improvement in my kids' own use of sentence structure after they have spent several years listening to me restate things. I also think it helps teach an important skill of succinctness. Both my kids have a tendency to add too many details. I simply omit them when restating and focus on the main points.

 

My dd writes a lot in her free time, so I don't worry about restricting her creative license in history or science narrations. My dd is the self-appointed science expert and will often try to slip made-up or partially true facts into her science narrations. I tell her flat-out that we are narrating only from what we have just read, even if she thinks she knows better. ;) This has not cramped her independent writing style. She also likes the Paragraph Writing book because it gives prompts and she can then make up her own sentences. I'm not a stickler for facts and accuracy in that. ;)

 

If your dd hates copywork and/or you feel she doesn't need it, you can use her transcribed narration for dictation.

 

Here's an example of a completely dd-directed narration (her mistakes italicized):

 

Sequoyah created the Cherokee alphabet. His alphabet used symbols, not letters. Each symbol stood for the sound of a syllable. Most Cherokee learnd this alphabet. Finaly the Cherokee could write down ther stories to live forever.

 

As she was making each mistake, I pointed out there was a mistake, and she told me what the mistake was an how to correct it.

 

Here is today's Mom-directed narration:

 

The United States and Mexico went to war. When Americans settled in Mexico, they did not obey the laws. The dictator of Mexico said, "No guns without a permit!" The Texans said, "We want freedom!" Texans tried to fight at the Alamo but lost, but at San Antonio they won. The U.S. offered to buy Texas, but Mexico said no! After the war, the U.S. bought all of Mexico's land in North America.

 

As we worked on the narration, I asked dd questions, and her answers became each sentence. For one sentence, I started the sentence and she filled in the rest. I did this because, as I said, there was a HUGE amount of information. I don't usually ask her to narrate an entire chapter.

 

Just by way of example. HTH and that I'm not just coming across as an obnoxious know-it-all. :D

 

Tara

[Kuovonne]

Ok, in thinking about it I guess I would say that when my dd reached the point where she could identify the error when I said, "Oops" or "Which spelling/punctuation rule did you break here?" is when I started giving her freer reign in writing her own narrations.

 

Okay. If I point out the location of an error, DD can figure it out on her own and knows how to fix it. If I only give the type of error (spelling, punctation, capitalization, etc.) DD can still usually find and understand the error. If I just say that there is an error, it's about 50/50 whether she'll find it, unless the passage is very short. If I tell her to check for errors without knowing if there are any at all, her sucess rate is even lower. OTOH, I currently make her actually *fix* error *only* when taking dictation, not in original writing.

 

I guess this is where I would say that the parent takes an active role in shaping the thoughts into coherent sentences. For example, dd says, ...

 

This was *extremely* helpful. I wasn't comfortable completely reworking DD's words the way you described. Charlotte Mason advocates not interrupting the child's narration at all, and SWB talks about restating the child's answers when they aren't complete sentences, but I hadn't heard about this wholesale rephrasing before. Now I know that it is okay.

 

Just by way of example. HTH and that I'm not just coming across as an obnoxious know-it-all.

 

Yes, it does help, and no you're not coming across that way.

I appreciate learning about different ways of doing things, as it helps me make better informed choices. I hope that I'm not coming across the wrong way either.

[2squared]

Just by way of example. HTH and that I'm not just coming across as an obnoxious know-it-all. :D

 

Tara

 

Thanks for writing all that out. It helped me immensely.

[virtual_twins_mom]

Actually, she did a very nice job for being 7 years old, IMHO. With more experience, she will "get" the main idea better. My 10-year-olds still, at times, would come up with similar content as hers! ;-) I've had to accept that learning is a process and not just the "product" produced that day. HTH!

[Rivka]

I guess this is where I would say that the parent takes an active role in shaping the thoughts into coherent sentences. For example, dd says, "The Americans settled in Texas but they didn't want to agree to the rules like becoming Catholic even though the U.S. government had said they would agree to them and the Mexicans were mad that there were so many people speaking English in Mexico and the dictator down there made a rule that the people in Texas had to have a permit to have a gun and this made the Texans mad and then they decided they wanted to have their freedom so they made a Constitution and put Sam Houston in charge of their army," mom would step in periodically and restate:

 

The Americans settled in Texas but they didn't want to agree to the rules like becoming Catholic even though the U.S. government had said they would agree to them and the Mexicans were mad that there were so many people speaking English in Mexico

 

Mom says, "When the Americans settled in Texas, they didn't follow the rules they'd agreed to, such as becoming Catholic."

 

and the Mexicans were mad that there were so many people speaking English in Mexico and the dictator down there made a rule that the people in Texas had to have a permit to have a gun

 

Mom says, "Mexicans were angry that so many people in Texas spoke English instead of Spanish. Santa Anna, the Mexican dictator, passed a law that people in Texas had to have a permit to own a gun."

 

and this made the Texans mad and then they decided they wanted to have their freedom so they made a Constitution and put Sam Houston in charge of their army"

 

Mom says, "This angered the Texans. They decided they wanted their freedom, so they wrote a constitution and put Sam Houston in charge of their army."

 

This gets written down, and dd repeats it.

 

This is hugely helpful, thank you! I've been feeling a little bit like I'm doing something wrong if I edit my child's oral narrations down to be a bit cleaner. Like I'm helping her cheat, I guess, or doing the work for her, but your example makes it clear that it's really modeling skills she will go on to learn for herself.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Tara,

Great job explaining!

 

I've read about SWB's philosophy and like some of it. My DD seems to focus her thoughts better when she's writing versus when I'm scribing for her. Having to adjust her thought process to my typing ability distracts her. If you want her to start with her own sentences, then you can take her narration and "edit" it the next day. This would be teaching her the writing process. Honestly, though, I would still write her sentences for her until you work through the basics of sentence writing a tiny bit more.

 

At what point do parents stop writing the narrations for their kids? How many mistakes is few enough that a child can write her first drafts by herself? When I see them writing their dictation well (using caps and proper punctuation) AND they start narrating solid sentences that I don't have to restate or pull too much out of them, then I start letting them summarize on their own. Even then, I have to walk back through it with them to work out the bugs.

 

Do the quantity and type of mistakes in DD's writing sample indicate that she makes too many mistakes to write her own first drafts? Yes, imho.

 

Do DD's mistakes indicate that she isn't ready to work on other aspects of writing beyond mechanics? If she could work on other aspects of writing, which ones?

I would encourage descriptive writing from the get go. I'll insert below.

 

DD7 wrote this history narration today. She read the section (3 paragraphs) and summarized it on a timeline index card.

 

****

Why did the Pilgrims come to America? (pulling out the main idea).

For jobs, money and freedom.

That's right. That's a good place to start. Why don't you put that into a sentence. Be sure to include who we're talking about and what they did.

The Pilgrims came to America for jobs, money, and freedom.

The Pilgrims came to America in the Mayflower.

What is the Mayflower?

A ship.

Let's fit that into our sentence.

The Pilgrims came to America in a ship called the Mayflower.

Where did they come from?

Europe.

Let's add that in, too. You might also use the word, travel, since you already used "came" in the first sentence.

The Pilgrims traveled from Europe to America in a ship called the Mayflower.

With the help of a English speaking indian named Sqanto they found food.

Let's fix a couple of spelling errors. Remember that you're talking about a specific group of people, Indians, so how do we spell when using a specific group?

We capitalize.

That's right.

Also, Q is always written....

QU (a Rule Tune in our house).

That's right. Let's spell Squanto again.

S-QU-A-N-T-O.

Good work.

 

What sorts of food did they find? Let's pick three to add to our sentence.

Corn, deer, and squash.

How did they get corn and squash?

The grew it.

Right. How about deer?

They hunted deer.

That's right! Let's add that to our sentence.

With the help of an English speaking Indian named Squanto....(I pause so they can finish), they grew corn and squash and learned where to hunt for deer.

 

Then they had a big feast called Thanksgiving.

Why did they have this big feast?

I don't know.

Where they happy about something?

Yes. They didn't die and made new friends.

Doesn't that sound like a celebration because they survived?

Yes.

Let's use the words, celebrate and survival, in our sentence. Listen to this one:

Then they had a big feast, called Thanksgiving, to celebrate their survival and friendship.

Repeat that back to me.

Then they had a big feast, called Thanksgiving, to celebrate their survival and friendship.

 

I'd type it (instead of writing), then I print, allow for space to illustrate or color a picture we can insert, then I have them read it back to me. This remodeling is practice that encourages good sentence writing. You'll find when they first start writing on their own, you'll need to remind them a few times of the same sort of things, but very soon, they'll get it and begin writing great sentences!

****

 

 

 

She also omitted the reason the Pilgrims came to America, so I need to work with her on picking out main ideas.

 

Comments?

That's the general idea of how narration works in our house. We have transitioned to writing summaries with our studies, but if we're really busy one day, I'll type it out and follow this model. I do this as a catechism or drill to get them used to descriptive and intentional writing from the beginning. It's an area I lacked with the first round of kiddos, so now that I know better, I get started on these things right away! Hope it makes sense and helps!

[robsiew]

This is hugely helpful, thank you! I've been feeling a little bit like I'm doing something wrong if I edit my child's oral narrations down to be a bit cleaner. Like I'm helping her cheat, I guess, or doing the work for her, but your example makes it clear that it's really modeling skills she will go on to learn for herself.

 

That was a great post from Tara! That is pretty much how we do it around here. I think the key is remembering we're "teaching" the process... not just expecting the kids to know it and do it. Teaching means modeling over and over and over again. Modeling is not cheating, it's instruction. Soon, they will get the hang of it and start doing it on their own.

 

I usually try to preserve the child's original idea (if it's on track) to promote their "creativity", but help them form it in a way that is readable. It's no good to anyone to be creative, but inaccessible to others because your writing makes no sense! :D

[Kuovonne]

Tina,

 

Thanks for the elaboration on how to do narration.

 

I don't think that I can do much with this particular piece. The original text was only three paragraphs long and included very little information, almost none of what you presented as answers to your questions. (Lol. The textbook didn't even say that the Mayflower was a ship and didn't list any food.) I picked this textbook at the beginning of the school year because it had short passages and I thought it would be easier narrate short passages. Plus, the narration had to fit on an index card for our index card timeline.

 

That said, I can see how I can apply the process to revising other written narrations on a larger piece of paper.

 

When I see them writing their dictation well (using caps and proper punctuation) AND they start narrating solid sentences that I don't have to restate or pull too much out of them, then I start letting them summarize on their own.

 

How do you determine if the sentences are solid? Is there a rubric that you can use? How do you adjust for age/maturity? (I assume that a solid sentence for a 7 year old is different from a solid sentence for a 10 year old.)

 

Even then, I have to walk back through it with them to work out the bugs.

 

By "walk back through it with them" do you mean they write their own first drafts, and then you discuss it with them to produce as second draft?

 

It's an area I lacked with the first round of kiddos, so now that I know better, I get started on these things right away! Hope it makes sense and helps![/color]

 

Yes, it helps. I have only two kids, so it's important that I do it right on the first go-round!

 

This thread is producing some enlightening comments.

[johnandtinagilbert]

How do you determine if the sentences are solid? Is there a rubric that you can use? How do you adjust for age/maturity? (I assume that a solid sentence for a 7 year old is different from a solid sentence for a 10 year old.)

A solid sentence contains a subject with an adjective and a predicate with an additional describer. For example, The cow ate dinner. is not enough, but, The brown cow ate grass for dinner, would be just fine for a 7 year old. So, I'd ask questions to pull the describers out...what kind/color of cow? What did she eat for dinner?

I might hope for, The grazing bovine loudly chomped the grass between its smacking lips., from a middle schooler. Better vocabulary variety, specific verbs and lots of describers. I'd say, what's a better word for cow? Can you give me words that would let me hear the cow in my mind?

 

I think SWBs lectures on writing may help you determine appropriate skill development. I have gleaned much over time, so I try really hard with this round to have them writing well from the start. I don't think it's too hard for them to get in the habit of descriptive writing, especially when we point out great descriptions in our reading.

 

 

By "walk back through it with them" do you mean they write their own first drafts, and then you discuss it with them to produce as second draft?

 

I actually type as they go, so we can see the sentence and easily make corrections. I'm faster at typing than writing. It also gives them a nice, clean spot to see their writing.

 

Yes, it helps. I have only two kids, so it's important that I do it right on the first go-round!

 

This thread is producing some enlightening comments.

Always glad to help.

[Kuovonne]

solid sentence contains a subject with an adjective and a predicate with an additional describer.

 

Thanks for this explaination of a solid sentence. I will have to think about it.

 

I think SWBs lectures on writing may help you determine appropriate skill development.

 

I've read SWB's ideas from TWTM, FLL, WWE, and various articles on her web site. However, I have not purchased her lectures because FLL and WWE do not work for my family, and because I do not learn well from audio lectures.

[Capt_Uhura]

This has been a great thread! Thanks Tina for your contribution! That was very clear. I see that I do some of that as well w/out realizing it and now that it is in my conscious mind, I will expand upon it.

[Ravin]

I just wanted to add that I'm impressed with your DD's writing. My DD is still dictating her narrations; I expect I'll have her writing her own intitial drafts near the end of 3rd grade (she's 7 1/2 and in 2nd now--next year I plan on having her dictate narrations and them copy them out from my draft of her words). We also just started spelling this week, so your DD looks advanced with respect to that as well, to my eyes. I think the only spelling point I'd discuss with her is that when she writes a name it's a good practice to copy that word over from her text instead of worrying about recalling the spelling on her own.

[Penelope]

DD7 wrote this history narration today. She read the section (3 paragraphs) and summarized it on a timeline index card.

 

****

The Pilgrims came to America in the Mayflower. With the help of a English speaking indian named Sqanto they found food. Then they had a big feast called Thanksgiving.

****

 

She made several technical errors in writing:

- "a English ..." should use the article "an English ..."

- "indian" should be capitalized "Indian"

- "Sqanto" should be spelled "Squanto"

- there should be a comma between "Squanto" and "they"

 

English-speaking should be hypenated. Would "on the Mayflower" be more correct usage?

 

I think it's a very good summary. It's clear with varied sentences. She did miss one capitalization issue, but got all the rest.

 

Rather than having the problem of needing to expand the narrations, I usually have the opposite issue - my ds8 wants to add in too much, rather than not enough. But I don't have a rule about every subject and predicate having to have a modifier. I worry that rules like that lead to stilted writing, and I think that sometimes a good, simple sentence is best. Instead, I try to encourage the use of more specific nouns and verbs, and only sometimes talk more about descriptive words. In your dd's writing, I might talk about 'came' on the Mayflower - could it be 'traveled'? Or 'they arrived'? They 'found' food. How did they find it? Did they forage? Grow it? Hunt for it? They 'had' a feast. What was the feast like? Did they enjoy it? Maybe they enjoyed it, or shared it, or something else. I might also focus on words like 'big' : "Big is not the most interesting adjective; let's think of another word that means big, or another word that describes what the feast was like." I also want to make sure that ds does not use phrasing or wording that is too similar to that of the passage.

 

My child has been writing most of his own narrations from that age, also. I don't know whether SWB would advise that, or not. My take from TWTM and her lectures is that we are to encourage them towards writing on their own, while simultaneously working on the skills of copywork and dictation (especially the latter) and correcting their sentences as they write. What I often do with ds is have him say the sentences aloud before he writes them, and then I correct capitalization and spelling as he writes. When I just let him write and looked at it afterward, there were at times too many edits to have him correct and rewrite on a daily basis. Revising the sentences orally is more palatable to him and results in only the rare written mistake.

[Kuovonne]

I think the only spelling point I'd discuss with her is that when she writes a name it's a good practice to copy that word over from her text instead of worrying about recalling the spelling on her own.

 

Great point! She probably misspelled that name because it was the first time she'd seen it.

 

 

I think it's a very good summary. It's clear with varied sentences. She did miss one capitalization issue, but got all the rest.

 

Thanks for noticing that she got the rest. That's why I'm not worried about her knowledge of when to use capital letters.

 

But I don't have a rule about every subject and predicate having to have a modifier. I worry that rules like that lead to stilted writing, and I think that sometimes a good, simple sentence is best. Instead, I try to encourage the use of more specific nouns and verbs, and only sometimes talk more about descriptive words.

 

I agree about looking for specific nouns and verbs, although modifiers do have their places. It was just wishful thinking to hope for an objective formula by which to judge the quality of a sentence.

[joyfulhomeschooler]

I don't think there should be a comma personally anyway. The first part of the sentence is just a prepositional phrase.

 

I don't have my 7 yr olds write their narrations on their own, so I wouldn't even worry about the punctuation errors. I would have them dictate it to me, correcting any errors as we go orally, and having them repeat it correctly. Then I have them copy it in their own writing. That takes care of those minor errors. I think it is a good narration of the main points. But talking through the narration together can help you to lead her to the points that you think she should be noticing as well. If this were my youngest who is just beginning narration this year in 1st grade, I probably wouldn't point out anything about her topics. I just like to hear what she comes up with at this point after talking through the comprehension questions in SOTW. By next year at age 7 (her 2nd year) I will begin to lead her a little more.

 

:iagree:

[mrshomework]

Great information from all the contributors. My dd is just starting WWE 2 and this info helps in teaching it.

Thanks