Uh Oh. This Classical Education model is backfiring.

[chai]

I don't quite know where to post this question, but I think that I will find the most help here.

 

I've been following the WTM methods for dd's education for the past 8 years. We have read storybook versions and abridged versions of the classics--all getting ready for the grand finale when she will read the real Great Books in high school. Well, guess what? She doesn't want to read them because she already knows the story!

 

Last week, she asked for "grown-up" books because children's books are too easy. (She has college-level vocabulary and reading comprehension, but she is still only 12 so I'm concerned about content.) So, I thought perhaps Dickens would be a good choice. But, she doesn't want to read those because she knows what will happen. I told her that we will be studying The Odyssey next fall (using VP Omnibus) and she said "But I already know that one." She's been reading Chronicles of Narnia since she was 5 and has no interest in studying them (secondary books for VP). I told her that we would be studying the symbolism, but she claims that she has already figured all of that out. (And she probably has.) So...now what? :confused: I can see cutting out the Narnia books, but we'll do Odyssey anyway. This was supposed to be fun for her!

 

Anybody BTDT? Do you have suggestions for books/authors that we may not have read already? For free reading, I'd like to stay away from books that will be studied in Omnibus over the next 6 years, so that they won't be repeats. She often reads 5-6 books at a time--so I need a lot of book ideas! I had no idea that this would be a problem!

[UmMusa]

Uh Oh!!!! She has a good point, but hopefully the 'real deal' plus the analyzing that comes with it will be challenging? I'm no help, sorry!

[prairiewindmomma]

Would tell her that knowing the storyline allows her to be free to focus on her the technique that you are trying to teach her: to analyze? She is moving beyond "caring" about the story and is learning how to dig out elements, analyze, synthesize, and output her own conclusions from the material.

[Jane Elliot]

ETA: Tell her that C.S. Lewis said that the mark of an unliterary man is that he will not reread books. (That's a paraphrase. I don't have time to find the quote, but it might be worth finding for her.)

 

I can sympathize with your daughter because that is how I would feel. Up until my forties, I would not read a book twice or even watch a movie twice. I don't know what changed that for me. I've been waiting for one of my kids to protest for the same reasons as your daughter, but so far no one has.

 

Dickens has many novels. I am sure there are some for which she does not know the plot, Hard Times or Our Mutual Friend for instance. Perhaps she could read some of those. Also, look at the logic stage reading lists in WTM for ideas, especially the 7th and 8th grade lists, which are not retellings. (Skip Little Women because I know that's in Omnibus, but have her read other books by Alcott, not Little Men or Jo's Boys though because they are sequels to Little Women. I don't know what else is in Omnibus because I'm not very familiar with it.)

Edited March 25, 2011 by Luann in ID

[Kfamily]

Have you looked at Ambleside Online for reading suggestions?

 

http://www.amblesideonline.com

 

As my dd has grown older, I have looked for books that I considered right for the stage in between middle school level reading and high school level/college level.

 

Here are some that we loved:

 

narrative poetry such as "The Courtship of Miles Standish", "Hiawatha" and "Evangeline"

 

also, how about some Shakespeare...has she read Tales From Shakespeare? If not, than after reading this she could go on to actual plays (minus the ones from Omnibus)

 

books by the following authors:

Edith Nesbit

Rosemary Sutcliff

Padraic Colum

Oliva Coolidge

Mark Twain (but choices other than Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer such as Conn. Yankee in King Arthur's Ct. and The Prince and the Pauper)

Like the pp, books by Louisa May Alcott but not Little Women

Tolkien (minus the Omnibus choices)

 

 

I can't remember if Omnibus includes Mythology, but if not you could add this (Bulfinch's Mythology, E. Hamilton's Mythology) and also some norse mythology would be a bonus for pre-reading the Omnibus books.

 

 

 

Just some ideas...I don't know if that helps much...

[MommyThrice]

I told her that we will be studying The Odyssey next fall (using VP Omnibus) and she said "But I already know that one."

We've been working through Omnibus I. Trust me... When she starts reading Herodotus and Livy, she'll be pleading to re-read anything with a story line! I highly recommend Vandiver's lectures on the Odyssey (available through The Teaching Company). But I can't help you with those dry histories. :tongue_smilie:

[chai]

I'm hoping that she will find the new approach to analysis to be fun, but I think she would rather have the reading be challenging than the work that I add to it. (My answer to her would be "tough", but really I want her to love this. She loves to read and I don't want to turn it into a chore.)

 

Interestingly, she has never had a problem re-reading books. (I do, though!) She does it often. I guess the problem is that she has read some of these too many times. I really wasn't expecting this problem. I will look at some of the other Dickens books, but the problem is that I haven't read them myself, so it's hard for me to recommend one.

 

Have you looked at Ambleside Online for reading suggestions?

 

www.amblesideonline.com

 

As my dd has grown older, I have looked for books that I considered right for the stage in between middle school level reading and high school level/college level.

 

Here are some that we loved:

 

narrative poetry such as "The Courtship of Miles Standish", "Hiawatha" and "Evangeline"

 

also, how about some Shakespeare...has she read Tales From Shakespeare? If not, than after reading this she could go on to actual plays (minus the ones from Omnibus)

 

books by the following authors:

Edith Nesbit

Rosemary Sutcliff

Padraic Colum

Oliva Coolidge

Mark Twain (but choices other than Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer such as Conn. Yankee in King Arthur's Ct. and The Prince and the Pauper)

Like the pp, books by Louisa May Alcott but not Little Women

Tolkien (minus the Omnibus choices)

 

 

I can't remember if Omnibus includes Mythology, but if not you could add this (Bulfinch's Mythology, E. Hamilton's Mythology) and also some norse mythology would be a bonus for pre-reading the Omnibus books.

 

 

 

Just some ideas...I don't know if that helps much...

 

I haven't looked at Ambleside for a while, so I will look there again. Thanks for the ideas, unfortunately, she has already read most of these. I'm planning on Hamilton's Mythology for the fall. She LOVES mythology and Shakespeare. She has read the story books and we've studied Julius Caesar and Merchant of Venice (using Progeny Press guides).

 

We've been working through Omnibus I. Trust me... When she starts reading Herodotus and Livy, she'll be pleading to re-read anything with a story line! I highly recommend Vandiver's lectures on the Odyssey (available through The Teaching Company). But I can't help you with those dry histories. :tongue_smilie:

 

Oh no! Don't tell me they are dry reading! I do have Vandiver's TC DVDs planned for next year. I've seen so many great reviews for that.

[Murphy101]

We've been working through Omnibus I. Trust me... When she starts reading Herodotus and Livy, she'll be pleading to re-read anything with a story line! I highly recommend Vandiver's lectures on the Odyssey (available through The Teaching Company). But I can't help you with those dry histories. :tongue_smilie:

 

So far my oldest three have hated, but endured Heroditus, but they have all enjoyed Livy considerably. You just never know.;)

[Murphy101]

Oh has she read Lord of the rings? My boys are very much enjoying literary lesson from lord of the rings this year.:)

[chai]

I really wonder if I am doing this all wrong. She would love LOTR, but I'm holding off on that until Omnibus II, because it will be studied then. (I like the looks of Literary Lessons too.) Does it just make more sense to study literature out of order and not follow a set plan? Yikes, that opens up another whole can of worms... There must be plenty of other good books out there, right?

[Murphy101]

I'm not familiar with omnibus.

 

If you are set and determined to use Omnibus, then I suppose that makes sense.

 

If not, might as well do what will work for you this year.

 

I don't have a set plan for literature other than following a somewhat chronological approach. Between my booklists for history and LLfromLotR, we are happy with the content and amount of reading done this year. I have no idea if it would work for someone else tho.

 

Could you skip omnibus I and go straight to II if you feel the first is too redundant for her?

 

Are you set on using a packaged program or would you be okay piecing your own together?

 

ETA: If it helps any to know, I would have felt the same as your dd and so would at least one of my sons.

[Murphy101]

Oh and one more thing...:D

 

I don't think LotR would be out of order. Go look at the other works it covers. It goes over the Odyessy, Illiad, Aeneid, plus other works.

[Andrew Kern]

I don't quite know where to post this question, but I think that I will find the most help here.

 

I've been following the WTM methods for dd's education for the past 8 years. We have read storybook versions and abridged versions of the classics--all getting ready for the grand finale when she will read the real Great Books in high school. Well, guess what? She doesn't want to read them because she already knows the story!

 

Last week, she asked for "grown-up" books because children's books are too easy. (She has college-level vocabulary and reading comprehension, but she is still only 12 so I'm concerned about content.) So, I thought perhaps Dickens would be a good choice. But, she doesn't want to read those because she knows what will happen. I told her that we will be studying The Odyssey next fall (using VP Omnibus) and she said "But I already know that one." She's been reading Chronicles of Narnia since she was 5 and has no interest in studying them (secondary books for VP). I told her that we would be studying the symbolism, but she claims that she has already figured all of that out. (And she probably has.) So...now what? :confused: I can see cutting out the Narnia books, but we'll do Odyssey anyway. This was supposed to be fun for her!

 

Anybody BTDT? Do you have suggestions for books/authors that we may not have read already? For free reading, I'd like to stay away from books that will be studied in Omnibus over the next 6 years, so that they won't be repeats. She often reads 5-6 books at a time--so I need a lot of book ideas! I had no idea that this would be a problem!

 

I get what she is saying, but, not to be too terse, her challenge is that she is still reading these books like a young child. They want plot and simple analysis. Now it's time to get to the heart and soul of the stories - the part that takes judgment and discretion and demands maturity of insight on her part.

 

Direct her attention to ideas and forms instead of plots. She knows the least important part of each story. Now it's time to discuss the inner working.

 

For example, read the Odyssey and ask her, "do you think Odysseus should have taunted Polyphemus?" Or "should he have gone to the island of the Phaiakians?". Let her form her own opinion and even write an essay on it, but demand that she honestly consider both sides. You could do a whole year on "Should Washington have crossed the Delaware?"

 

What I'm suggesting is that you read stories she has already read but direct her attention to the ideas that make them valuable. Nothing can reveal the life of a story more vividly than a discussion like those above. Every story turns on whether a character should have done what he did. Any character. Any action. Keep it simple. Don't get into abstract things like symbolism until the core should question drives you to it.

 

I hope this has some value.

[chai]

I get what she is saying, but, not to be too terse, her challenge is that she is still reading these books like a young child. They want plot and simple analysis. Now it's time to get to the heart and soul of the stories - the part that takes judgment and discretion and demands maturity of insight on her part.

 

Direct her attention to ideas and forms instead of plots. She knows the least important part of each story. Now it's time to discuss the inner working.

 

For example, read the Odyssey and ask her, "do you think Odysseus should have taunted Polyphemus?" Or "should he have gone to the island of the Phaiakians?". Let her form her own opinion and even write an essay on it, but demand that she honestly consider both sides. You could do a whole year on "Should Washington have crossed the Delaware?"

 

What I'm suggesting is that you read stories she has already read but direct her attention to the ideas that make them valuable. Nothing can reveal the life of a story more vividly than a discussion like those above. Every story turns on whether a character should have done what he did. Any character. Any action. Keep it simple. Don't get into abstract things like symbolism until the core should question drives you to it.

 

I hope this has some value.

 

Thank you so much for your wisdom. You are absolutely right. I got caught up in the details and lists, and forgot the essence of what we are trying to accomplish.

[Andrew Kern]

Donelda,

 

Believe me, I do that all the time. It helps to speak out loud sometimes, especially if your mind swirls around as much as mine does. I'm glad it was helpful!:)

[Janice in NJ]

Aside from your curriculum, kids should be encouraged to read widely.

 

This list should keep her busy - Junior High and Senior High links on the right:

 

http://www.classical-homeschooling.org/v2/index.php?page=440

 

Peace,

Janice

[Murphy101]

I found this book list

 

http://www.classicalcurriculum.com/ModelCurriculum.htm

[chai]

Thank you so much. I've given my dd the list with the Amazon links so that she can choose some books to read. I'm really very excited that she is showing so much interest in good literature. This is not my area of expertise, so I really appreciate everyone's help.

[stephanier.1765]

We've been working through Omnibus I. Trust me... When she starts reading Herodotus and Livy, she'll be pleading to re-read anything with a story line! I highly recommend Vandiver's lectures on the Odyssey (available through The Teaching Company). But I can't help you with those dry histories. :tongue_smilie:

 

I have to laugh because that is pretty much what my son said to me this week. He wondered how Herodotus counted as literature since there wasn't any plot. I told him it falls more in the category of history than literature and left it at that. :tongue_smilie: I'm sure he'll be turning cartwheels when he finishes the book.

[flyingiguana]

Is she too young still for the kind of in depth processing that a high schooler would do? That might be what she's telling you when she says she's already read those books. She just might not realize it. It's kind of a slow process, and not everyone gets to the same place at the same age.

[mommymilkies]

I have to laugh because that is pretty much what my son said to me this week. He wondered how Herodotus counted as literature since there wasn't any plot. I told him it falls more in the category of history than literature and left it at that. :tongue_smilie: I'm sure he'll be turning cartwheels when he finishes the book.

 

Was I the only dorky kid who fawned all over Herodotus? :lol:

 

I would definitely encourage her to reread them in the original form. Andrew Kern has some excellent points.

[newbie]

What about Shakespeare? Omni dabbles, but nothing too heavy.

 

You have to remember, there are a lot of classics that Omni covers so that is tough.

[chai]

Is she too young still for the kind of in depth processing that a high schooler would do? That might be what she's telling you when she says she's already read those books. She just might not realize it. It's kind of a slow process, and not everyone gets to the same place at the same age.

 

I think that she is ready for it. We've done some with Classical Writing and analysis/discussion is really her forte. (It is NOT mine, however. That may be where some of the problems lie. I intend to have dinner-time book discussions so that her father is involved too.) I'm hoping that once we start doing more literature analysis in the fall, she will really enjoy it.

[chai]

What about Shakespeare? Omni dabbles, but nothing too heavy.

 

You have to remember, there are a lot of classics that Omni covers so that is tough.

 

We will definitely add in more Shakespeare, but I think that is better seen/watched than read. Now that I've thought about this more, I'm making a list of books that are recommended through various sources--WTM, Ambleside, etc.--and giving them to dd as some free reading options. She is pretty excited about that. She has already found a book on the list that she wants to read; it is one that I would never have considered. We really have different tastes in literature.

[LibraryLover]

Where are you in your history studies? That might help with titles.

 

My youngest is just a little younger than your dc, but in the past 18 months or so, she has enjoyed reading the following unabridged books:

 

Little Women

The Little Princess

Edith Nesbit books

The Secret Garden

All of the Narnia books

Black Beauty

Heidi

Alice in Wonderland

Many Sherlock Holmes stories

Tales from 1001 Nights

Various poetry, including quite a bit of memorization (from Annabelle Lee to The Midnight Ride of Paul Revere)

 

I am away from home currently, and I don't have access to my most updated list. My memory is foggy. I haven't updated our Library Thing in a little bit.

 

Remind your child that literature is more than the main narrative. As she reads higher level text she begins to 'mine for meaning' and peel back the layers.

Edited March 26, 2011 by LibraryLover

[newbie]

We will definitely add in more Shakespeare, but I think that is better seen/watched than read. Now that I've thought about this more, I'm making a list of books that are recommended through various sources--WTM, Ambleside, etc.--and giving them to dd as some free reading options. She is pretty excited about that. She has already found a book on the list that she wants to read; it is one that I would never have considered. We really have different tastes in literature.

 

My dd is the same way, one loves to read Shakespeare the other likes to watch.

 

But your idea of letting her pick is great, she will find a niche she loves.

[Jenn in CA]

Well said. I was going to say something similar, and add that this time through, she can be encouraged to enjoy the poetry and the language of the "real thing." Maybe someone already said that.

[BlsdMama]

I can remember having the same problem with our oldest DD. ;)

 

I can tell you it won't continue to be a problem. As she takes on the difficult literature, there is more to think on, discuss, write about... It becomes a very different process in the Rhetoric Level and their thoughts become so much more complicated that they actually ... Slow down isn't the right word. It's a bit like when you eat something light, you're hungry again right away? But when you eat something heavy and nutritious, it sticks to the ribs and it just takes longer to metabolize. :)