Classical Conversations - Pros and Cons?

[Brenda in FL]

This is exactly what I COULDN'T do with CC. I felt like I had to do it all because of how much money we spent to join CC or else we wouldn't be getting the full benefit of the program. IMO, to really enjoy CC, I would have to use their history and science as my curriculum for those subjects and use the history sentence and science memory work for what we studied during the week. I didn't realize I would feel this way when I joined this year. I thought that I could use what I wanted to and add CC on top of it.

 

No way, didn't work for us as a family. Some of the subject matter was WAY over dd's head considering that she is in 1st. I think that the pp who suggested waiting to join until your oldest is in at least 3rd is right. Maybe at some point in the future I could go back to CC, but I would go in with my eyes wide open this time. Use only their history and science! The problem with that is I want to do history and science the way I want to do history and science, not the way CC does history and science (nothing necessarily wrong with it just not enough flexibility for me).

 

Ultimately it comes down to this, if you are a control freak (like me) about your homeschool and how you want things to go (4 year history cycle, ability to spend time on something your kids are really into, etc.), then CC might be hard for you. I did not see anything inherently wrong with the program though, just not a good fit for us. For one thing, I found out that I am not as "classical" as I thought I was (more classical/charlotte mason/unit studies), so learning that has been helpful. I am planning on getting all of the audio CD's and continuing to use the timeline in our school because I like the things we learned, I just want to be able to use them on my time table.

 

I don't think you can make a wrong decision with this one. I don't feel that my family deciding to do CC this year was bad, just a costly learning experience ;) Good luck!

 

Hmm - I added and then deleted to my post above that I would not recommend CC to a mom that had children about age 7 and younger!! In fact I'd probably say wait until the oldest is in 4th grade. Up until that time I found it relatively easy to accomplish much at home even with littles coming up behind. But after that - I felt the Kindergartner was not getting the same attention my oldest got and the older one was needing more attention as his subjects became more crucial. And the middle child - I got to her when I had the time between the others! Having an academic-type co-op has really helped me feel emotionally better about the quality of our homeschool!!

[snipsnsnailsx5]

Doodle's 3 hour art/drama class is $65/ month and Kumon math is $90/ month. We take violin from a man who is Suzuki certified, but he is a former homeschooler and only charges us $17.50 for each 1/2 hour we see him. For violin that is an incredible deal. (Yes, I am saying that a 1/2 hour of violin costs more than 3 hours of CC and that I know that is very cheap for violin lessons.)

 

Sure the other educational homeschool tutorials in my area are drop off, but they cost as much or more than CC. For the most part these groups aren't nearly as organized as CC- most of the time you don't know what they will be offering from one year to the next.

 

I realize that for a large family any cost will add up quickly, but comparatively speaking CC is not expensive.

Mandy

 

Except that its not just $13/week for CC. Maybe it depends on area, but here there is another $50 f/ registration and $50 f/art and supplies. Then you add in the books, cards, guide, CD and divide that by 30 weeks - the total I came up with for everything is about $24.50/week for one child in Foundations, double that if they are in Essentials too. For the Challenge program (A) it figures out to just about $50/week.

 

I still think CC is a good program from what I saw on open house day and from what I've read and researched. I love the accountability and organization. I love the presentations the kids have to give. I love that all the kids learn the same material so that we can go over it at home all together. It may be totally over my 4 yr old's head, but he would have loved singing the songs. Then eventually as he got older, it would have stuck with him until he understood it.

I just think its too expensive as one part to your curriculum. Besides all that, there is other curriculum you still have to buy (math, language arts-unless they are in Essentials or Challenge, and any other subjects you want to cover more then CC covers) as well as other activities. For example, music lessons since CC doesn't have that comprehensive of a music element. Gym/ballet/karate, etc. lessons (although I know not everyone does that), and so on.

There is another co-op in this area, for example, that the parents have to stay there and help out in a class. Its pretty organized and has some good classes to offer. The fee is $25 per family to register, for each quarter I assume? They run classes in sessions like spring, fall, and winter. They charge for most of the classes to pay the time of the teacher/tutor and for any supplies. It's one day a week also, 8am to 12:10pm. Even for a family of my size though, and doing all the sessions, assuming its around 30 weeks (it runs about the same schedule as CC), the total is just around $17/week for all of the kids. That's much more do-able then over $120/week for all the kids (once you figure in the books and materials, and not including one in Essentials too).

 

I just wish the CC program was more affordable, because then I think my DH would be more agreeable to doing it. As I said, I still think its a great program!

[tjarnold]

:bigear:

[angela in ohio]

Doodle's 3 hour art/drama class is $65/ month and Kumon math is $90/ month. We take violin from a man who is Suzuki certified, but he is a former homeschooler and only charges us $17.50 for each 1/2 hour we see him. For violin that is an incredible deal. (Yes, I am saying that a 1/2 hour of violin costs more than 3 hours of CC and that I know that is very cheap for violin lessons.)

 

Sure the other educational homeschool tutorials in my area are drop off, but they cost as much or more than CC. For the most part these groups aren't nearly as organized as CC- most of the time you don't know what they will be offering from one year to the next.

 

I realize that for a large family any cost will add up quickly, but comparatively speaking CC is not expensive.

Mandy

 

I don't think you can compare one-on-one instruction with a trained and experienced violin teacher to a class of 8 students and another homeschool mom. I'm not saying CC is or is not expensive, as like all other things in CC, imho, that will depend entirely on he quality of the campus. An experienced, creative teacher and a well-run class are probably worth the $17/week per child, if a family can afford it.

 

I think that there are people who think that if they are doing something or using product X or curriculum Y or attending Coop A, then it has to be the very best and nothing else can compete, disagree or refute them or they have failed in some way.

 

I think this is often the case.

Edited March 27, 2011 by angela in ohio

[Mandy in TN]

I don't think you can compare one-on-one instruction with a trained and experienced violin teacher to a class of 8 students and another homeschool mom. I'm not saying CC is or is not expensive, as like all other things in CC, imho, that will depend entirely on he quality of the campus. An experienced, creative teacher and a well-run class are probably worth the $17/week per child, if a family can afford it.

No, probably not. However, I do think that with CC like Kumon and Suzuki you are paying for the program (the organization, the structure, knowing what your child is going to learn and how it builds) not so much the instructor. I am a homeschool mom and people pay $100/month to come to Kumon and have their child sit and do phonics and basic math with me. Are they paying for me? No, they are paying for Kumon the program.

 

Also, as I have said, all the tutorials in my area are this expensive and they all require a registration fee, supply fee, and books. These tutorials are mom led/ taught groups (especially in pK-6) and you have little consistency from one year to the next. Don't get me wrong- for the most part they wonderful groups with wonderful families and most offer some really neat experiences. You can't go wrong with most of the tutorials in my area and I don't want to diminish the incredible things that they provide our local homeschool community. However, comparing apples to apples most of them do not have the consistency- overall plan from year to year or even from one age group to the next within the same year- that is provided by CC.

 

Although I am paying for the program, I have to admit that Doodle has a fabulous instructor. Visiting her class really sold me on CC. I can't say enough wonderful things about her. She is confident, prepared, and enthusiastic.

 

Funny thing though, when parents approach me and tell me how fabulous I am at instructing their little person in Kumon jk, I give it all back to the program. I talk about how I was trained, how I believe in the program, and how I believe in the head of the center. When I say something to Doodle's instructor, I have to ask specific questions (where she found something, how she prepared something) or the response I get from her is to give it back to CC and God.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[Heather in VA]

I definitely agree there are no perfect programs! But for me, what was the most bothersome about CC's attitude was that they SAY their purpose is to help ordinary parents homeschool classically. And then they are very condescending about that, as if you should never question what they are doing or how they are doing it because they know all, as opposed to you uneducated little peon who could never really implement the classical method without their strict guidance and help. So at a public or private school, I would be willingly delegating the responsibility of educating my kids to the school, so I wouldn't feel like I needed to complain all the time or whatever. But with CC, they are supposed to be a partner with me, but instead, I got the feeling they were a bossy and overbearing MIL who always had to be right and could not be questioned! So I guess I saw the problem as pride as well, but on CC's part, not on the part of the parents.

 

:iagree:

[loudjoy]

I have done a lot of research about CC as I am going to help start up and direct a Foundations/Essentials this coming fall.

 

In the paperwork they make the director agree that she understands that Classical Conversations belongs to Leigh Bortins. It is her reputation on the line with Classical Conversations groups. I believe that is why they are careful about what they teach and not deviating from it. So many people have so many different ideas. She has to somehow have quality control on her organization. She is well within her right to do so and we are free to not participate. I understand that one reason people homeschool is freedom. That will always be part of a tension with any kind of community/co-op. People need to understand that going into any group.

 

Secondly, concerning the cost. I now belong to a co-op group with volunteers for everything. It is a mish-mash of whatever anyone is willing to teach and sometimes no one is willing to teach anything. Other times the same mom is constantly offering classes and everyone comes but doesn't serve. Also, it is not classical or even close to classical.

 

CC is a great model to me personally. The worker is worth her hire. If a mom is willing to teach 3 hours a week, go to practicums, and prepare weekly, then a small stipend is reasonable and logical. The director does a lot of preparation and deals with a lot of stress. It isn't a money making scheme. It's a way for everyone to contribute and benefit fairly. It's a way for moms who can't afford it to pay some of the costs through tutoring.

 

My purpose was just to defend some of CC practices. I don't think it is for everyone. They even say that in informational meetings. But I felt like there was a little bit of an indignant tone about curriculum/cost that could be addressed.:)

[profmom]

We are in CC Foundations (only) this year and are happy with it for my ds-6th. However, I don't believe that CC is the summation of classical education, etc., etc. My ds is old enough to either already have context or understand the context that we add at home to the memory work. The weekly presentations have been great practice for him, and he is also on-track to be a memory master this year. Being and feeling successful with this has given him a new confidence in academics, and this has made the process fun for him! We've practice the memory work, and he has learned that his efforts pay off and are worth it. So, CC Foundations has definitely been worth it for us! We have a great director, group of families and tutors at our CC, and I'm sure that makes a huge difference too.

 

I will say, though, that I love what Claire is doing and could see us doing something very similar at some point, especially now that I've seen how it's done and how much is done at CC.

 

So this year I did my own memory work--a 32 point time line that includes dates, as well as points from places other than America after 1776; a science sentence per week taken from the BJU Life Science book, which is what my oldest is going through this year; mapwork from TOG year 1, which is history for this year, several poems (one stanza a week), and Heb. 11. It's been great! We already do Latin and English, so I didn't feel the need to add anything on there. I find I am much happier when I am in control and understand why I am having my kids memorize stuff, LOL!

Edited April 17, 2011 by profmom

[HeProvides]

I am part of a CC group and I love the content. It is impressive to hear your 5 year old singing songs about Charlegme or leaders of the great wars. My only problem with the program is that I wish they had a curriculum package that went along with the material to allow more indepth knowledge about the memorized items.

[laughing lioness]

CC is just memory work. It's not a classical education. Much of the memory work is out of context. there is only 24 pieces of info per subject learned a year. A LOT will rest on the strength of the Director and the Tutors and you.

It's expensive. Living Memory makes more sense from a content pov.

Essentials is overly confusing and complex. Unless you've interviewed the Tutor and they GET the program I wouldn't pay the money.

 

The framework of the program = learning how to memorize is good. REally good. It is a great way to learn discipline for mom and kids. if you have a good Tutor/Director it can be a blast.

[happymomma]

The benefits others have posted above are spot on. It has been an unbelievable group for my family to be a part of. The accountability is wonderful. The kids are in a classroom environment one day a week and to be honest, I appreciate being able to tell them and others we do a bit of "school" like a traditional schooled naysayer would be familiar with. Our particular CC group coordinates TONS of field trips, yearbooks, contests, award ceremonies, parties, etc. This is all in addition to the awesome memory curriculum. I was one that at the beginning of the year thought I could save money and do it on my own but at the last minute we decided to try it out. My kindergartener became memory master this year and I can honestly say I never would have gotten around to the memory work on my own--and when your young child is naming every European country and spitting out multiplication facts and telling you the laws of thermodynamics--it's pretty cool :) Just my 2 cents :)

[Guest Lhplus3]

This will be our second year home schooling and we will once again do CC. I have my 4 year old daughter and 8 year old attending. We originally had them in private school so the cost was way less. But even so, I decided to tutor this year to help us out financially. My 8 year old dd absolutely loves it an cried the last day. My 4 year old to be honest can care either way. But I have to say she has learned so much and sometimes corrects my older dd. Which doesn't always go over very well, lol.

This has been a wonderful social time and still has been able to allow me freedom in my home school by following a math we love and grammar program. In no way do I consider a day at CC to be a distraction or taking away from a "normal" home school schedule. Those are my pros.

My con which is no longer a con was our history schedule. It took me this year to see how to work around teaching my daughter history longer than one weeks worth of memory work. Since I school year round I will start Story of the world before CC starts and be able to stretch it out longer. But would love to hear any advice on that!

[MeganW]

3. Accuracy of memory work- I am not a scientist or historian and looking at a few of these makes me scratch my head and feel the need to explain, alter, or add.

Mandy

 

 

I have heard several people mention this. Could you give some examples of some of these items? (I may mark up my guide!) Thanks!

[mnllj7]

It's good so i understand, almost got into it, but i just could not

fathom the cost to participate, and all the materials I would have

to buy, and it was mainly just memorizing. and we still had to

do a weeks worth of work at home. It just wasn't for us at the

price that is expected. nancyt.

[Hedgehogs4]

So Kelly,

 

Here's a question, if people like "accountability" and would like more "in context" and accurate memory work, why aren't the co-ops with this set-up? Does it only work if you charge families? Pay a Director? I actually loved Directing, and would have done it free, and will do it free. Funny thing... I was going to give families a $50 off like... per student... if they turned in their registration early this year... Oh well... now I'm not directing... and for our co-op... we're only charging a minimal fee to cover things... So, I went from $50 off... to... well... free :) And... I'm lovin' it!!! Can't wait to see how it goes this September!!!

:)

 

HI! sorry I didn't see your reply as I haven't been on the boards much the past few days...but in response to your question, I do think the fee has something to do with it. I also think original vision has a lot to do with it. What I mean by that is that everyone has to agree to the same terms and be committed to the end product of the coop. I agree with the pp who said that if there isn't the fee, etc. people don't show up or are unprepared. Blech...that is why I don't want to do a co-op, and yet here I am about to start a TOG co-op with two other friends who are pulling out of CC next year. I think we are going in with this knowledge--one of the reasons we are forming this co-op is to share goals and hold each other accountable. You cannot run a co-op where people are "using" it to meet their needs only--it has to be mutually beneficial, and I think it has to be a core of the education experience, not an elective...

 

That leads me to why I think that CC works. Everyone shows up because they've paid, and the tutors show up prepared (in most cases) because they are paid. The majority of students who show up, however, have not completed the work to the best of their ability, but because of the Memory Master program, there is a high bar set, and a small portion of the students will use it to its fullest. This year we had 64 students and 19 memory masters at our campus. That is a lot. IMO, there should have been more. More were certainly capable. But because of the structure of CC, you can have a more people coming together and accomplishing common goals and if some don't come prepared, etc. it doesn't drag everyone down.

 

JMO...

 

btw, what are you starting a co-op for?

[Hedgehogs4]

I am part of a CC group and I love the content. It is impressive to hear your 5 year old singing songs about Charlegme or leaders of the great wars. My only problem with the program is that I wish they had a curriculum package that went along with the material to allow more indepth knowledge about the memorized items.

 

This is the key problem with CC...You are paying a lot for a weekly thing, but you have to provide the context. It can be done. We did it and did it well this year, but honestly, if you don't know how to go about it, it can be very daunting.

[Mert]

This is the key problem with CC...You are paying a lot for a weekly thing, but you have to provide the context. It can be done. We did it and did it well this year, but honestly, if you don't know how to go about it, it can be very daunting.

 

Will you be participating in CC again this year and will you also develop another year of study based on the CC framework?

[SonshineLearner]

btw, what are you starting a co-op for?

 

Hey There,

We are doing a Co-op for children 2.5-highschool. We're doing a Preschool version for under 6 and at 6 we're starting SOTW. We are doing SOTW 1-4... through the years, Science, a free hand geography program with Book 7 of Draw Write Now, Music, Art, Poetry, and skits on a rotating basis... Lunch, free time, and an elective which will rotate.

 

We will be highly organized, and as far as people coming or not, with warning or not, that's fine. I did put in the enrollment that after 2 weeks of no contact, that they are considered "withdrawn" with no refunds.

 

There is a bit of a cost, enough to make it something that people will "feel" without being so much... (basically facility, insurance, supplies)

 

We are doing longer times so that for example, we'll listen to the cd from SOTW, the students all will purchase their own Student Pages.. and do a project... Then kinda the same for the rest of the subjects..

 

We are SOOO excited and will strive to keep the momentum up with different "parent pump ups" as possible. I'm also wanting to bring Classical Educators and other speakers with academic goals to town..

 

I'd love to talk to anyone about co-ops, but especially those involved with Directing/Leading them.

 

PM me for my email :)

:)

[ShellChelle]

I was thinking about enrolling in CC this coming year, but we're working in SOTW vol. 2 this year and the CC near me is going to be doing cycle 3, so it didn't seem like a good use of time or money. I'll just put that $750 into a vacation fund!:)

[Hedgehogs4]

Will you be participating in CC again this year and will you also develop another year of study based on the CC framework?

 

I am not going to enroll again in CC, but the reasons are not due to dissatisfaction with my CC group. I love our campus! In fact I have not yet withdrawn my registration. I LOVE the cycle 3 info--the US history stuff is so fun. However, as I look to the future of where I am going with my son (i.e. to Challenge or not?), and see him stepping boldly into the logic stage, I want to give him a complete 4-year cycle of history--He loves history. This cycle 3 would have been the last year I did CC, but I since I want to do a solid year of US history and geography, CC would have worked. It is the last year it would have, though.

 

There are elements I plan to keep--I will continue to use the VP timeline. I will continue to use memory work and map work, but I want to incorporate literature, poetry and historical documents into the mix. I think CC has given me the tools to know what I want to do and how to do it. I think that I'll be able to do it better than they do for my kids...

[jamajo]

My blog has some entries on my thoughts of the Challenge A program. It took my 13 yr old daughter's confidence, oral communication skills, and sense of belonging to a whole different level. We aren't continuing next year because we choose another route for high school but the "non-academic" reasons were well worth the money (the positive peer interaction) for me and she has improved dramatically in her math and writing skills.

[kentuckymommy]

I would like to hear from a mother of at least three children involved in CC...we have 5 with number 6 mon the way this fall. I love the idea, but the sticker price has been a shocker for us. I think that $13 a week is pretty cheap, that is until I add up that price by each child...For you mothers of many, did you feel the tutoring was well worth the price and the day away from home?What areas did/do you feel your children benefited from in CC? Thank you so much for your input!

[SonshineLearner]

I personally think you could do it with another family just fine. If I had that many kids in it, I'd tutor to offset the cost. If you do it at home with a friend.... you can set the time... structure... and change what you may not care for. I like Shurley English better(for Jingles), and Latin for Children... better (for chants), and a few other things.. like Geography done in more of Audio Memory way... drawn out like Draw Write Now! Book 7. I believe that you could take your money and do something else with it.... :) Like... a vacation for you... after you teach all year ;)

 

(Yup, I was a Director... and these are just my little thoughts... We are enjoying putting our own... no profit co-op together...)

[snipsnsnailsx5]

I would like to hear from a mother of at least three children involved in CC...we have 5 with number 6 mon the way this fall. I love the idea, but the sticker price has been a shocker for us. I think that $13 a week is pretty cheap, that is until I add up that price by each child...For you mothers of many, did you feel the tutoring was well worth the price and the day away from home?What areas did/do you feel your children benefited from in CC? Thank you so much for your input!

 

This was the reason we ultimately decided not to do it. I still think it sounds like a great program, however, my DH just couldn't justify the $3000 (first year, so buying the needed guides, memory cards, etc + my oldest would have been in Challenge A which is more money then Foundations). :( We had four of school age, and one would have been in the nursery.

My Dh kind of made the ultimate decision, but I supported him on it. He just didn't feel the price was worth the quantity/quality. Basically you're paying for one day a week to have other parents (who went to a 4-day training or so) tutor your kids for a couple hours. <--- These are his words. I guess when we originally decided to do the program he thought they were bringing in "professionals" from the CC program who'd been more extensively trained. ALSO, in our area its the FIRST year doing it here so there was a large level of uncertainty if it would even work in this area and the teachers were ALL going to be new to the program.

 

If I could do it though - I'd try to see if I could be a teacher so that my costs would be less. :)

 

We went one day to visit the "test run" program and my boys loved it. My 7 yr old keeps asking when we'll go back. :(

[Chrystal in TX]

I personally think you could do it with another family just fine. If I had that many kids in it, I'd tutor to offset the cost. If you do it at home with a friend.... you can set the time... structure... and change what you may not care for. I like Shurley English better(for Jingles), and Latin for Children... better (for chants), and a few other things.. like Geography done in more of Audio Memory way... drawn out like Draw Write Now! Book 7. I believe that you could take your money and do something else with it.... :) Like... a vacation for you... after you teach all year ;)

 

(Yup, I was a Director... and these are just my little thoughts... We are enjoying putting our own... no profit co-op together...)

 

Could you describe what you are keeping/leaving out in your "no profit co-op". What made you decide to leave CC after having been a director?

[SonshineLearner]

Could you describe what you are keeping/leaving out in your "no profit co-op". What made you decide to leave CC after having been a director?

 

I don't know exactly what you mean by "keeping/leaving out"... but we're keeping families united in learning together, and leaving out supporting a company that dictates what we do. I wasn't re-signed to be a director, because I put my middle daughter back in school. I had issues with things for the entire time, though, and was asked by my husband and parents to consider that we had enough brains and energy in the group to put our own program together. I like local; it's how I like church and how I like groups. When things get too big, they get too political for my tastes. This is a local group, with local decision making. We are supporting our own needs and desires... and with all the money we're saving(and not sending up)... I wanna hear people like SWB, Chris Perrin, the Lowes.... etc... :)

 

We like it done "Our way" kinda like commercial, huh? :)