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choirfarm

Have you seen Jay Wile's new post?

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I heard you this weekend. Thanks for pushing through. The three talks I was able to attend were excellent and I took away information that I'll use in educating here. I wanted to say hi, but you were always mobbed after speaking and I knew your voice was going.

 

You know, this conference drew a wide variety of people. I know there's a wider variety, but just from looking at the dress and families, you could sense that there are differences in the homeschool community! We don't all look like the homeschooling family on the magazine cover.

 

I particularly hate to see the dissention among Christians. :grouphug: When I worked, I hated those moments when I just felt beat up on (I was a trial lawyer. ;)). Going home to family that love you is the BEST medicine! Enjoy a long weekend.

 

Lisa

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Dear Susan

Take heart, we all LOVE YOU!!! I guess we shouldn't be surprised when sinners sin, but it still hurts when it is directed at us. I am so very thankful for all the work that you do and I know my homeschool journey would be vastly different without reaping the benefits of your hard work. I always make it a point to recommend your book to anyone interested in homeschooling as well as veteran homeschoolers who don't classically educated. You are doing a good thing! :D

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I'll be there at Philadelphia! I'll defend you! :)

 

I find it hard to believe that such bad behaviours would happen. I can't believe you would be accused of 'trying to remove Christianity from homeschooling". What business is it of them to decide who's Christian enough!

 

:grouphug: (it's better to keep this particular group hug as electronic though. I'm sick too.)

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I'll be there at Philadelphia! I'll defend you! :)

 

I find it hard to believe that such bad behaviours would happen. I can't believe you would be accused of 'trying to remove Christianity from homeschooling". What business is it of them to decide who's Christian enough!

 

:grouphug: (it's better to keep this particular group hug as electronic though. I'm sick too.)

And who says homeschooling MUST be Christian?? :001_huh: I don't like the aparent claim some Christians make to being the "owners" of homeschooling. Why does any one faith or philosophy NEED to be incharge? :confused:

 

SWB: I truely hope you have a wonderful weekend, and that clearer heads will prevail at future conventions so you don't have to relive this weeks' experience.

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And who says homeschooling MUST be Christian??

 

well there's a difference between allowing (or not) others to come and play in the sandbox, and actively kicking someone out. "Removing Christianity from homeschooling", to me, is a serious accusation of 'kicking someone out'.

 

However, based on my personal experience, I know homeschoolers locally who make assumptions about me, just because I also homeschool, and I'm friend with so-and-so, therefore I *must* be a Young Earth Christian. That gets on my nerves so much. [end rant] There are definitely homeschooling Christians who won't let others come and play with them, and will even kick you out if you don't conform.

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Susan,

 

((((hugs))))) and prayers.

 

We love you over here too!

 

Here's a sweet story about Susan. At Memphis, on the 3rd day of convention, when everyone is exhausted, Susan was helping the person next to me in line and was so tired while sitting in a chair. But she was so kind and nice with that lady.

 

You showed kindness and care and compassion even when totally exhausted. So did the others at PHP booth. You showed love with real smiles and real help. By those simple actions, I think you showed that you love God and love others and honestly, made sure that several people at that moment could see how Christ serves others. Susan, you are putting the service and hands and feet of our God in action at these conventions.

 

Praying for you for Cincy and the Northeast one.

 

((((hugs)))) and get some rest. Thank you for serving and following your calling to serve. I can never imagine how exhibitor families do this week after week for months at a time. But thank you for doing so.

 

signed, just some customer in Memphis. P.S. I bought the Telling God's Story package. Nice stuff, very sweet, simple and with a heart to help parents of grammar stage learners know concretely about Jesus.

 

-crystal

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Bless your heart, Susan. :grouphug: We drove 5 hours to hear YOU. I attended 3 of your wonderful seminars, and came out of each feeling more and more refreshed and strengthened. Your scratchy voice made you all the more endearing and real. You even signed my book. :) Now I must admit to simply being fat, dumb, and happy, because I had no idea any of that stupidity was going on!! Oh, if only I had personally attended one of those snarky seminars, I would have gladly stood up and corrected those who were speaking so rudely. :D I guess when there are several *big name* speakers at the same convention, (which I thought was tremendous!) you have to assume that the ugly ego of a few will be ignited to draw attention towards them. That is a shame, since I was going to this conference because I was totally burned out and near the end of my homeschool career, and now I am back with a fresh plan for our future. You are largely responsible for that turn-around in my attitude. I am deeply indebted to you for your sacrificial service to us all. Thank you so very much for coming all that way, despite your health and home situations. I look forward to seeing you again and again. Blessings and a speedy recovery to you.

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Susan,

I have whole new level of respect for you after that post. FTR, there are points in your materials that are too Christian for ME. However, it's not anyone's job to remove it from my homeschooling but me. It is a rare thing to find curriculum that is based in solid objective research. Much as I may disagree with a few passages, on the whole yours fit the bill.

 

I find it terribly sad when people get caught up in a lemming run of anti-intellectualism. I am very sorry you get stuck in front of them so much.

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Have just woken up from a 14-hour sleep in an attempt to recover from that convention, which was hard not only because of the SWB and Enns-bashing that went on, but also because I am coming off a week where I started with a bad cold, spent three days with my father while he had emergency surgery, then got on a plane and went to a conference center, which (inevitably) produced bronchitis. Did the whole conference with almost no voice, and now all I want to do is get back on the plane and go home and see people who love me.

 

So, for my sake, could you knock off the creation-evolution discussion for a while? That's not what the OP and Wile are talking about anyway. Plus you guys NEVER get anywhere on this board with that discussion. Plus I don't feel banning people today, and I have control of the ban button because it's Sunday and the moderators are getting a break.

 

Plus I'd rather you go back to talking about civility, because I want to weigh in.

 

I spent a lot of time at this conference encouraging parents and giving them personalized advice on how to get past particular educational challenges with their kids. I'm not concealing the fact that I get paid for these appearances, and that selling books at them helps keep our business (and this board) afloat. But believe me when I say that if it were just a matter of money, you couldn't PAY me enough to do what I did this weekend. I really do feel a "call" to help people educate their children. I am a Writing Zealot out to spread the gospel of good prose. :-)

 

And in the middle of all this, people would come up to our booth and say, "Are you aware that other speakers are telling people in their workshops that Dr. Bauer is out to remove all Christianity from homeschooling and that's she's not even a Christian and that we shouldn't buy any of her materials?"

 

Oh, good grief.

 

Let me count the ways this is wrong.

1) It's not true.

2) It's tacky and unprofessional.

3) It's unchristian. Yep, you heard it here. No believer should EVER be in the position of passing judgment on another's spiritual life.

4) It's directly aimed at hurting the business of a competitor.

 

I don't criticize other vendors at conferences. Ever. The most I will do is offer any reservations I have about specific programs and curricula, privately, to individual parents, when they ask me directly whether or not I recommend them.

 

There is a point to this post, beside the obvious venting.

 

In an earlier thread, several people who use our materials mentioned that they wouldn't feel comfortable at a convention where I was speaking because they were in such strong disagreement with the other speakers who had been invited.

 

Could I ask you to reconsider?

 

People who support the OTHER speakers aren't staying home because I'm there. They're coming, and going to the workshops and filling seats, and recommending the workshops to others, and drawing into those workshops parents who've been unfamiliar with them in the past.

 

I wish that parents who like our materials, and don't like to see bullying and smearing, and who think tolerance of different of points of view to be a GOOD thing, would do the same for us.

 

SWB

 

Wow! Totally tacky. And totally unprofessional. And certainly not very Christian. It is shocking to hear that this juvenile stuff goes on at homeschooling conventions. I guess after hearing this and some previous conversations about conventions, I am glad I don't live anywhere close to one :glare:

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I spent a lot of time at this conference encouraging parents and giving them personalized advice on how to get past particular educational challenges with their kids. I'm not concealing the fact that I get paid for these appearances, and that selling books at them helps keep our business (and this board) afloat. But believe me when I say that if it were just a matter of money, you couldn't PAY me enough to do what I did this weekend. I really do feel a "call" to help people educate their children. I am a Writing Zealot out to spread the gospel of good prose. :-)

 

And in the middle of all this, people would come up to our booth and say, "Are you aware that other speakers are telling people in their workshops that Dr. Bauer is out to remove all Christianity from homeschooling and that's she's not even a Christian and that we shouldn't buy any of her materials?"

 

Oh, good grief.

 

Let me count the ways this is wrong.

1) It's not true.

2) It's tacky and unprofessional.

3) It's unchristian. Yep, you heard it here. No believer should EVER be in the position of passing judgment on another's spiritual life.

4) It's directly aimed at hurting the business of a competitor.

 

I don't criticize other vendors at conferences. Ever. The most I will do is offer any reservations I have about specific programs and curricula, privately, to individual parents, when they ask me directly whether or not I recommend them.

 

There is a point to this post, beside the obvious venting.

 

In an earlier thread, several people who use our materials mentioned that they wouldn't feel comfortable at a convention where I was speaking because they were in such strong disagreement with the other speakers who had been invited.

 

Could I ask you to reconsider?

 

People who support the OTHER speakers aren't staying home because I'm there. They're coming, and going to the workshops and filling seats, and recommending the workshops to others, and drawing into those workshops parents who've been unfamiliar with them in the past.

 

I wish that parents who like our materials, and don't like to see bullying and smearing, and who think tolerance of different of points of view to be a GOOD thing, would do the same for us.

 

SWB

 

Well said Susan. Hope you feel better soon:grouphug:

 

I am always shocked that, while we are supposedly on the same boat, we are so quick to throw each other overboard. I guess who has it "right" spiritually will only be known when we are dead so, for now, we are only able to act out our beliefs. Judging is just plain tacky and unfruitful no matter how educated one makes the judging sound.

 

I personally haven't found anyone I agree with 100% though I consider that a plus instead of a negative. But, I like to think we live in a world where one can think for oneself without the petty bashing of alternate views. Your treatment this weekend was without excuse.

 

I personally enjoy this board so much but find myself more a peacemaker than antagonist. Guess that is why I stay out of the heated posts;) But, thanks for reminding us that you pay for this board and we should certainly mind our manners when using the board. You shouldn't have to defend yourself on your own board for heaven's sake. (Sorry, just had to throw that in for good measure.)

 

Have a safe trip back and rest, rest, rest...

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I am so sorry!:grouphug: Your integrity speaks volumes, as does theirs (or lack there of:glare:).

 

And, thank you for doing what you do (putting up with all *that*) so that we can all benefit from what you do! I spent the afternoon thumbing through WWE, reconciling what you have laid out with what Nan in Mass has posted this weekend...and putting my dc in those blanks. May your gospel of prose produce fruit in my home.:001_smile:

 

 

Now, get yourself home and enjoy some rest with the people who love you most of all!

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I totally agree!! The whole thing made me sad. Ken Hamm has a right to voice his issues just as much as Jay Wile does however reading Jay's post really has me bothered. I like both authors but I just agree with Ken Hamm on the Bible. I do understand Jay's point however I saw it as bickering (on both sides: Ken and Jay). Its not ok for Ken to bicker but ok for Jay to do it?????:001_huh::001_huh:

 

 

Again I like them both. I only use Apologia for Biology and AP (human Body).

 

Speakers are free to voice their views and beliefs. However, according to SWB's new blog post, some speakers were telling people not to buy SWB's materials. That's not legal in this country.

 

Edited to remove name since the speaker or speakers who made the above comments were not named.

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Did I miss something? I don't think the person was identified in the post.

 

Oh, you are right! I made the assumption because some things that were posted on Ken's website made the rounds on our local homeschool loop. The things that have been posted on various websites, loops, and blogs are beginning to blend together in my mind. I will edit my post.

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Thank you Elizabeth! And, I did find it..... grrrrrrrr.

 

Maybe we can all choose the higher ground and let this rest. Really, its not new information in the big scheme of things.

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Maybe we can all choose the higher ground and let this rest. Really, its not new information in the big scheme of things.

 

 

unfortunately, 'the higher ground' doesn't always consist of ignoring a Very Serious Issue. There's a neat book called The Peacemaker that describes that kind of thing as PeaceFaking, not PeaceMAKING.

 

all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

 

historically, we've always needed people to be the town crier and point out the gross problems that we've let exist as 'normal'.....stuff that keeps creeping back onto the radar or stuff that new Christians *aren't* aware of.

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To what "gross problems" do you refer?

 

SWB

 

In this case, the one that Wile was speaking up against in his original blog post. Because as you pointed out, most of us know it wasn't about young/old earth issues but a deeper theological issue that cuts to the core of the basic unity of the Christian faith.

 

In other areas, it could be various infringements of rights that are typically seen as 'normal' via the boil-the-frog-slowly syndrome. Or things like the Emperor's Clothes. ;)

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unfortunately, 'the higher ground' doesn't always consist of ignoring a Very Serious Issue. There's a neat book called The Peacemaker that describes that kind of thing as PeaceFaking, not PeaceMAKING.

 

all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

 

historically, we've always needed people to be the town crier and point out the gross problems that we've let exist as 'normal'.....stuff that keeps creeping back onto the radar or stuff that new Christians *aren't* aware of.

 

You know it's funny, because this could have been taken the other way too (not what you apparently meant), that Ken Ham was trying to do this for his audience.

 

I think the trouble here is we're mixing spiritual issues (religious beliefs, things people feel so adamantly about they're willing to separate, die, etc.) with getting along and Kumbaya over writing, not of the same pressing nature. And it's not appropriate to silence Ken Ham in his own sessions with his own audience any more than it is to say Jay Wile or Peter Enns can't express their viewpoints (even though I might disagree with them). If people disagree with Ken Ham, they'll speak with their presence and dollars; we don't need a pc committee. And if people get a chance to THINK about the issues for themselves, rather than just following blindly like lemmings, well isn't that good? I mean they ASKED SWB for a rebuttal. These are hard issues about beliefs, and people should have the chance to sort through them, see the sides, and really wrestle with them, not just accept simplistic answers.

 

Ok, this is something I wanted to ask, if SWB happens to bop in here again. Have you discussed publicly how you met Peter Enns or formed this connection to publish his work? I was curious about that. Were you a student in some of his classes? You knew each other through the publishing world? You approached him or he approached you? I guess that's none of my business, but I've just been very curious. It seems many people's interaction here on the discussion board with Enns was through a class, so I just wondered.

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You know it's funny, because this could have been taken the other way too (not what you apparently meant), that Ken Ham was trying to do this for his audience.

 

 

I know. ;)

 

BUT-- in *this* case, Wile didn't go as far as Ham did in *denouncing* a person's faith.

 

I absolutely believe Ham should and could discuss doctrinal issues that he sees as incompatible with HIS interpretation of scripture, but once you start judging another's heart, you've crossed a scriptural line.

 

I mean, if Wile had issued a rebuttal that basically did what Ham did, I don't think we'd be seeing the same reaction to his response. But Wile instead pointed out an error and expressed a plea for restoration.

Now THAT's where the difference is as far as i'm concerned. and I don't agree with either of them, doctrinally speaking. ;)

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OhElizabeth,

 

I was not a student of Pete Enns,, although either he or I should thank you for the question. :-) We were classmates at Westminster Theological Seminary, back in the days when WTS was both staunchly conservative AND was willing to entertain the possibility that other traditions might also have insights into the nature of faith.

 

That class at WTS was an interesting one. I met my husband there; my best friend at WTS was Tuck Bartholemew, who was Tim Keller's associate at Redeemer in NYC until he moved to Redeemer in Philadelphia; Scot Sherman in San Francisco was another close friend. Phil Ryken, now at Tenth Pres in Philly, was also in my year and I knew him well, but he's gone in a different direction.

 

Should anyone wish to Google and speculate...when I was at WTS I was amazingly grateful to Tremper Longman, Ray Dillard, Bruce Waltke, Alan Groves, Sam Logan, and Claire Davis for their wisdom.

 

SWB

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You know the thing I haven't been certain of is what what actually said vs. what the hearers said was said, kwim? There can be a difference. I'm very interested to hear what Ken Ham says when I go to Cincy at the end of the month. Gotta hear some of this hotbed stuff for myself. :)

 

Any time an academic enters into the public arena as a teacher, writer, etc., their ideas are GOING to be a matter of public record and subject to criticism, debate, etc. SWB said this ages ago, that she learned early on not to take criticism of WTM or whatever personally (I remember reading this in something she wrote). We all have to put on our lizard suits (thick skins) occasionally.

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OhElizabeth,

 

I was not a student of Pete Enns,, although either he or I should thank you for the question. :-) We were classmates at Westminster Theological Seminary, back in the days when WTS was both staunchly conservative AND was willing to entertain the possibility that other traditions might also have insights into the nature of faith.

 

That class at WTS was an interesting one. I met my husband there; my best friend at WTS was Tuck Bartholemew, who was Tim Keller's associate at Redeemer in NYC until he moved to Redeemer in Philadelphia; Scot Sherman in San Francisco was another close friend. Phil Ryken, now at Tenth Pres in Philly, was also in my year and I knew him well, but he's gone in a different direction.

 

Should anyone wish to Google and speculate...when I was at WTS I was amazingly grateful to Tremper Longman, Ray Dillard, Bruce Waltke, Alan Groves, Sam Logan, and Claire Davis for their wisdom.

 

SWB

 

Well that's fascinating, thanks for sharing! And no, I never would have suspected it. (Oh mercy, that sounds even worse, haha.) You're young and spritely, and I figured him a bearded, wizened fellow. Go figure.

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That must have been an incredibly difficult week. :grouphug: Praying that you recuperate from the bronchitis and get some good rest, and praying for your dad too.

 

As far as the rest, it amazes and saddens me how hate filled some "Christians" have become. They've forgotten how Jesus lived, and taught, and asked us to live.

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Ok, then that brings up another point, which maybe you've alluded to. Were the ideas Enns teaches now, which are for some controversial, an outgrowth of the WTS teachers at the time? So it's not like they were UNIQUE or originating with him, but rather he was a product and run with the teaching? Interesting. I think I read something about that whole WTS division and castigation online. Interesting. Small world when you go to college and make so many friends!

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I certainly don't want to do any peacefaking.... I'm sorry if you thought I did.

 

I just didn't want another bash session. Two wrongs don't make a right. I had to examine my heart, I found myself saying I'm through with so and so, because I really can't stand this sort of thing, but really, he is human, and does have valid things to say. Yes, humility would help, though...

 

I do wish there could be a code of conduct at conventions so all vendors/speakers could come, share about their curriculum, answer our questions, and then let us decide. I don't even mind comparing curriculums, but it needs to be intelligent discussion pointing to specific differences, etc. And yes, I have appreciated my one on one conversations getting opinions that I ask for when I feel someone matches what my homeschool vision is. These people have saved me from things that would not have worked for us. I have been to other conventions where speakers were telling you which curriculum to buy (and not buy), and people were blindly buying it up without really looking into it. I guess that was good for sales, but I wonder how well it worked when they actually used it. I also lamented at the lack of selection, I once scoured a very large convention, and felt there was more to choose from that wasn't there.

 

I would love to know what the people bashing SWB are so scared of???? I am Christian, I haven't found anything in any of the books I have that is bash worthy.

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Susan :grouphug:s and I hope you feel better soon. I'm sorry you and Dr. Enns were treated in such a way. Thanks also for your encouragement for us to try and be civil. (especially since my reaction to how you were treated was to get mad) Thanks for providing this place for us to come and vist, learn and be encouraged. I hope our discussions here will be productive and our manners civil.

 

off to be civil to my child who is out of bed...

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I was at the conference this weekend. You were fabulous despite your voice and horrible speaking area (at the end of the curriculum hall? With rolling trash cans, garage doors and delivery trucks!? Really?!). I saw you, Erin from Analytical Grammar, the geo matters people and AHG. That is it. I actually threw away some of the free books being passed out by certain vendors rather than pass them on.

 

This is our tenth year of homeschooling. I was lucky to find TWTM early on, we have never used anything else. I would not have made it this far with Abeka or Sonlight. Thank you for providing alternatives to the school-at-home, fundamentalist or unschooling ideas that were so common then.

 

Your talk on homeschooling the real child was extremely helpful and encouraging to me. I feel refreshed, full of new ideas and tactics. Your talks and videos have helped me so much as a teacher and a mother. The video of your dd doing a worksheet in crayon was revolutionary in my home, such a small thing, but it really helped me loosen up.

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:grouphug: Susan. We all love you here. I am going to the Northeast convention to hear/see YOU...again! I had the pleasure and good fortune to hear you speak a few years back in Richmond. It changed my homeschool for the better. I am praying for you. You don't deserve all this "junk" being flung at you.

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I certainly don't want to do any peacefaking.... I'm sorry if you thought I did.

 

I just didn't want another bash session. Two wrongs don't make a right. I had to examine my heart, I found myself saying I'm through with so and so, because I really can't stand this sort of thing, but really, he is human, and does have valid things to say. Yes, humility would help, though...

 

 

no apology necessary -- i was speaking more in generalities than towards you. :)

 

as someone mentioned earlier- we're likely to offend each other at times over different things. it happens. we can [hopefully] learn when to be truly offended and when we're just being thin skinned. ;)

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I was at the conference this weekend. You were fabulous despite your voice and horrible speaking area (at the end of the curriculum hall? With rolling trash cans, garage doors and delivery trucks!? Really?!).

 

:iagree:

Wasn't that setup bizarre? And yet, you did beautifully, Susan.

 

I haven't been home educating as long as Mrs. Mungo, but I have been fortunate to have TWTM since the beginning, also. That book is so much more than simply a list of resources!

 

Our journey began as a temporary solution after encountering a horrible middle school year with our dd. My plan was to teach her at home until high school and leave the other children at the elementary. I read every book the libraries in our county had on homeschooling. I discovered that there were different methodologies, and had narrowed it down to Classical vs. Charlotte Mason.

 

...Then I read TWTM. My life changed. All our lives changed. Not only did I discover that I could think outside of the box, and blend some CM into a Classical approach...I discovered that I wanted this for ALL of my children.

 

Your book turned a "let's just get through these next couple of years the best we can" situation into a "oh, the places we can go!" situation. Seriously, our whole perspective switched from that of being victims of the school system to that of being excited home educators. We went from having no choice, to actually choosing to be in our situation. I hope that makes sense. It's certainly much more enjoyable to actually excitedly choose this education for my children, than to feel like a victim.

 

Anyway, as a side note...I was raised in a libertarian household. I was always taught that my rights end where someone else's begin. I still subscribe to that belief. Yes, people have the right to say what they would like, until that right infringes on another person's right. I also subscribe to the Golden Rule. You can stand up and say what your beliefs are, without attacking someone else's. Period. SWB recommends things that she believes in, without attacking the creators of other texts or their beliefs/ideas. I know that she specifically starts off her SOTW series by stating that you should begin wherever you, the individual, feels the beginning is. She certainly doesn't try to influence or convert anyone's belief system.

 

I believe that Ham could offer up plenty of his beliefs to support the use of certain materials, and offer reasons to his followers to steer clear of other material that contains counter-information...WITHOUT slandering SWB. And even though Ham may not have broken any laws by speaking maliciously about other individuals, his actions speak to his character. Period. I know that I would find that bothersome, if I were one of his followers. But hey, to each their own...

 

The same bible that is quoted, often out of context, contains some other great (and overlooked gems). It's funny to me, that many fellow Christians seem to pick and choose which verses are worth remembering. There are too many verses to list here, including Romans 2: 1-3, that specifically tell us to not judge others...period.

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Phil Ryken, now at Tenth Pres in Philly, was also in my year and I knew him well, but he's gone in a different direction.

 

 

He's at Wheaton now as the 8th president, as of July 2010. : )

 

His dad (Leland Ryken) was one of my very favorite chapel speakers--I didn't have the joy of having him as a prof. You never knew which way he would take a chapel service, and it was always thought-provoking.

 

Valerie

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He's at Wheaton now as the 8th president, as of July 2010. : )

 

His dad (Leland Ryken) was one of my very favorite chapel speakers--I didn't have the joy of having him as a prof. You never knew which way he would take a chapel service, and it was always thought-provoking.

 

Valerie

 

And then that's Leland Ryken of the Bible study books TOG uses? Interesting!

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I have a friend who leans towards the "true Christians believe in a young earth" side and it drives. me. crazy.

 

Personally, I believe that True Christians believe that God Created it. Period. You say tomato, I say tomahto ;)

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OhElizabeth,

 

I was not a student of Pete Enns,, although either he or I should thank you for the question. :-) We were classmates at Westminster Theological Seminary, back in the days when WTS was both staunchly conservative AND was willing to entertain the possibility that other traditions might also have insights into the nature of faith.

 

That class at WTS was an interesting one. I met my husband there; my best friend at WTS was Tuck Bartholemew, who was Tim Keller's associate at Redeemer in NYC until he moved to Redeemer in Philadelphia; Scot Sherman in San Francisco was another close friend. Phil Ryken, now at Tenth Pres in Philly, was also in my year and I knew him well, but he's gone in a different direction.

 

Should anyone wish to Google and speculate...when I was at WTS I was amazingly grateful to Tremper Longman, Ray Dillard, Bruce Waltke, Alan Groves, Sam Logan, and Claire Davis for their wisdom.

 

SWB

 

 

Brings to mind a story about one of the classes at West Point, in which several 5 Star Generals were. Must have been some FABULOUS leadership and instructors in that group!

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This is me too.

That *was* an excellent blogpost.

 

I *really* like Jay Wile, even tho I disagree w/ the way he presents some science [which is why I don't use Apologia as a spine]. We used Apologia General Science a few years ago and got the book signed by him at a convention... he said it made him feel like a rock star. ;) He was a VERY upbeat person and was amazing talking to kids about important topics, but at a level they could easily understand.

I would love to hear more of the bolded. PM me?

unfortunately, 'the higher ground' doesn't always consist of ignoring a Very Serious Issue. There's a neat book called The Peacemaker that describes that kind of thing as PeaceFaking, not PeaceMAKING.

 

all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

 

historically, we've always needed people to be the town crier and point out the gross problems that we've let exist as 'normal'.....stuff that keeps creeping back onto the radar or stuff that new Christians *aren't* aware of.

:iagree:I love this post!

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I know. ;)

 

BUT-- in *this* case, Wile didn't go as far as Ham did in *denouncing* a person's faith.

 

QUOTE]

 

 

Okay, I can't find where he did that. Would someone link it for me, or pm the link to me...

 

Not debating anything...just curious.

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I know. ;)

 

BUT-- in *this* case, Wile didn't go as far as Ham did in *denouncing* a person's faith.

 

QUOTE]

 

 

Okay, I can't find where he did that. Would someone link it for me, or pm the link to me...

 

Not debating anything...just curious.

 

On his blog, Wile quotes Ham:

 

In fact, what he teaches about Genesis is not just compromising Genesis with evolution, it is outright liberal theology that totally undermines the authority of the Word of God. It is an attack on the Word—on Christ.

 

so if I believe differently, I'm *attacking Christ* and undermining the authority of the Word of God.

 

sounds like a pretty substantial allegation to me.

did he say "I denounce..."? nah. but he made his point clear enough.

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I would love to hear more of the bolded. PM me?

 

well, I'm not a young-earth-only kinda gal, and i don't think he presents the Theory of evolution well enough to be able to argue it effectively, but the final straw for me was pre-reading the Biology 2d edition [don't know if it's in the 1st edition also, but I have the 2d].

 

Page 16, middle paragraph that begins "Of course, there are a few experiments that lend some support to the theory of abiogenesis. A discussion of these experiments is beyond the scope of this module.....However, if you look at the track record of spontaneous generation throughout the course of human history, it is safe to conclude....will also be shown to be quite wrong"

 

He fails to mention WHAT those experiment are, and they are actually pretty fascinating to study. They are NOT 'beyond the scope' since he just spent PAGES discussing older experiments that had *already been proven wrong*. It would have been more within the scope to address the CURRENT experiments.....and it is NOT scientific to ASSUME that they too will be proven wrong. "God did it" is a strong enough Christian defense for me, regardless the scientific theories put forth. I don't know HOW God worked through all this stuff, but He did. :)

 

anyway, that's my biggest bugaboo......

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well, I'm not a young-earth-only kinda gal, and i don't think he presents the Theory of evolution well enough

So can I ask what your science plans are or would be if you had a do-over? I am trying to present both OE and YE. My guess is that nothing presents evolution well enough until you get to college texts. That has been my experience anyway.

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So can I ask what your science plans are or would be if you had a do-over? I am trying to present both OE and YE. My guess is that nothing presents evolution well enough until you get to college texts. That has been my experience anyway.

 

We ended up using BJU cuz my guys liked the format, and yeah, I just skipped the chapter on scriptural interpretation and supplemented w/ other biology texts and info online. We did a passel of dissections in a co-op class, starting w/ fruit and working our way up to the sharks/pig.

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I think, rather than having cat fights via blogs they should just go ahead and have a DEBATE at the convention. Now THAT would be something. :)

 

I think that might have been a much better solution all around. And I would have loved to have seen it.

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I think, rather than having cat fights via blogs they should just go ahead and have a DEBATE at the convention. Now THAT would be something. :)

 

For a debate to be useful (and even entertaining) both sides have to be willing to listen. Otherwise it's just yelling at each other. And right now, I doubt it would be the case... At least one side is not listening.

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For a debate to be useful (and even entertaining) both sides have to be willing to listen. Otherwise it's just yelling at each other. And right now, I doubt it would be the case... At least one side is not listening.

 

If that were a requirement, there wouldn't be much point in any US political "debates".

 

Though you have a point. I would still have found it interesting to hear a moderated "discussion"? parallel presentation? where a couple different sides answered a set of questions from a moderator and had an opportunity to respond to each other as well.

 

I would like to hear this with reps from a YEC view, OEC view, ID and/or theological evolution and non-religiously oriented evolution. There are some specific things that I'd like to hear addressed that I never seem to find answers to. I'm sure that it would in part be an opportunity for scoring points and rallying ones base, just as in politics. But I think it could also be quite illuminating.

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Way to go!! I must say that although I am a Christian, I don't know that I am a young earth one. I see evidence for both sides. To be honest, I don't care. God did it and I hate science so I really don't care to investigate.

 

I'm so glad someone else feels that way! I often feel like I am a slacker for not being more interested in spending years of my life trying to figure this out!!

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You know the thing I haven't been certain of is what what actually said vs. what the hearers said was said, kwim? There can be a difference.

 

I was at the Gville convention, and ended up sitting in the back of one of Ken Ham's sessions. I didn't even know who he was - I was only in there b/c there wasn't anyone else I wanted to see at that hour and I was tired and wanted to sit for a while.

 

I ended up walking out after about 15 minutes, and I am not the type to get up and walk out of someone's speech right in the middle. I don't know how he came across to everyone else, but I was just tired of listening to the man bash everyone that he had even minor disagreements with. (As one example, he was badmouthing anyone who sends their kids to school. We all know that schools serve a purpose and are necessary in our society, even if we personally have made the choice not to use them. There is no point in going on and on about how terrible people are who send their kids to them.)

 

He just seemed so negative and hate-filled and bent on vilifying everyone who did not see the world 100% as he did. Not exactly the loving reflection of Christ that we are called to be! He wasn't laying out logical arguements to convince - he was trying to scare people into agreeing with him.

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