OhElizabeth (& others!)-- will you please tell me a bit about Abeka History 4?

[Virginia Heather]

I'm struggling this year w/ my own American history plans (sticking to them, that is) and am considering Sonlight 3 to follow up w/ Core 4 next year. I'm still not certain Sonlight's the best fit for us, though, so I haven't purchased anything yet. In my ponderings, I remembered that you were using, or were planning to use, Abeka's 4th grade history text... did/does your dd enjoy it?

 

My problem is this... I've been using TQ w/ too many spines-- the jumping back and forth from text to text is too much right now, though I still love all the smaller books. So I'm not sure if I just need a different spine--- 1 spine!-- to organize and plan around, or if I'd enjoy the structure Sonlight provides... Anyway, I'd love to hear your opinions on the Abeka text when you have a spare second. Thanks!

[vmsurbat]

comprehensively in one year. It does a very decent job of bringing out topics/themes suitable for a 4th or 5th grader. The book is attractive, with bright pictures.

 

It is one of the few texts at that level that is complete *and* Christian. BJU spreads out American history throughout grades 1-5, then returns to it in 8th grade (as does Abeka). CLP books cover only certain portions in each of its history texts.

 

I think it would make an excellent spine--just be careful of getting too wrapped up in the detailed review questions--use them to cement what *you* consider most important.

 

FWIW, my children have always preferred a history text spine to a living books spine (eg. Guerber books). We've used Guerber's books--but as enrichment and fleshing out--and many, many other living books along with our spine.

 

HTH,

[Virginia Heather]

Thanks, Vicki! Guerber is one of the many spines I have and I think it would work better for my boys as you've used it... as an enrichment-- a section here, a section there. Some of it they've enjoyed, but the majority induces a coma-like state in them, lol! Just this morning, in fact, I finally decided to put it aside for now-- I was just wasting my breath!

 

Anywoo, I think i'll try and find a sample of the Abeka text online. Perhaps it'll be just the right thing for us, too :o)

[PeterPan]

Hi Heather, we spent this year finishing up VP MARR, so we haven't started into american yet. We did american earlier, so I've had some experience learning what works for us, what doesn't, etc. When I did it then, as you say, I used TQ. It's really de-structured, not scheduled, to the point where it's difficult to use if you don't like the jumping or going with the flow. I'm with you, where I wish there was one, good, solid spine. And you know, I WISH the perfect spine for this age (3rd-5th) existed. I've looked at everything I've heard of, and they all seem to be sort of what we want but still not. Abeka4 has all the content, but it's a bit shallow compared to what you're doing in TQ (surprise, surprise).

 

Here's my two cents, and you can take it for what it's worth. I wouldn't jump on the SL 3 just yet, because your choice would be reactionary (out of frustration), not because of the positives of what you see in it. Are you going to pause for a while or wrap things up a take a break? Are you intending to study through the summer or not again until fall? If you're willing to follow a schedule, it might as well be a free schedule using stuff you probably already have. Have you looked at Tami's free schedule on her blog? She works through the spines straight and brings in the pages/topics/books of TQ as they apply to the readings in the spines. That seems very logical to me. Another way to revamp your approach is to consider VP. Have you ever looked at it? What I LIKE about the cards is the orderly structure. (One card/topic a week, I can handle that!) What I dislike is that *I* end up feeling like it's disconnected, or at least I did the first time through way back when. But you know, my dd doesn't seem to find it that way, doesn't bug her a bit. Kids don't mind disconnected facts, just adults and logical people, lol. So you could get the VP cards, do the spine readings they list on the cards, then do as much reading from corresponding topics and pages in TQ as you have time during the week. That is more or less my plan. Yes I like Abeka4. I liked the old, old edition with its really large font and thick, lucious paper even better. But I digress. The difficulty is not so much liking abeka4, it's a question of what is leading, what is driving, what is scheduling.

 

You've been doing a ton more reading for TQ than you would with SL, as far as I can tell. I LIKE some aspects of the SL core. A really temperate way of dealing with your bug is to get Landmark and see what you think. Have you done the explorers, etc. to exhaustion? Then you could literally pick up and just start reading through Landmark. Make a chart correlating Landmark and the TQ pages. Let Landmark lead and read books from TQ that correspond as you have time. Maybe read from Landmark twice a week (whatever seems sensible) and have your pile of TQ books to use like a book basket the rest of the week. That's a $17 way to scratch your itch rather than buying a whole SL core and finding it doesn't fit. If you start into Landmark and crave the SL schedule and notes, then you could go back and buy what you need to complete the core. This way though you're scratching the itch without killing your budget, ruining your marriage, or having remorse later. (Hehe, can't tell I speak from experience, can you?)

 

Isn't your dd the same age as mine? Landmark is plenty for this age. (not plenty as in content, but plenty as in writing style) I have this collection of COFA's I've been growing for her and I'd like to move into Landmarks or the next step up after that. I've always dreamed of putting together a study using all the comprehension questions, vocab, activities, etc. in the backs of the oop COFA's (not in the new ones). I just don't know if *I* am consistent enough to make that happen. So if she just has to enjoy them, that's enough.

 

I've thought about using Hakim straight, but it doesn't have the perspective/spin I want. I don't know much history, but it seems rather selective about what it includes. (trying to remember here, but there was something really obvious like Pocahontas or something I noticed was missing) It's not bad, and certainly it could be used in an interesting way. Nuts, I may eat crow and use it. If I were to do that, I would read a bit each day and line up activities, writing assignments, and the TQ pages to go with it. So Hakim would be the spine, the driver, and everything would line up to it. That's the opposite of letting TQ, which is inherently disconnected, drive and then lining up everything to TQ. See? And I haven't decided partly because I've been unsure, partly because I know by fall my dd will be older (what seems appropriate now might seem babyish in 6 months), and partly because I've been wretchedly busy working on stuff for the house, etc. In fact, I pretty much decided to punt on history and just do a country study this summer. I don't have time, energy, etc. between being prego and the house work to think through this or make our american history time as fun as I want it to be.

 

I wish I had great answers for you. I wish someone would have a complete program, with all the elements we want (writing assignments, meaningful hands-on, Christian/providential perspective, etc.) and write it to the 3rd-5th gr market. AAS is in theory that book, but it's just too stiff for this age. Or at least it seemed that way to me when I looked it over a year ago. It would be fine for the right age, but a bit much too early. And like you, I think a dc should LOVE american history, be proud of their country and their heritage. It bugs me that we really don't have great materials to use to teach our own history! Lots of stuff, but none of it exactly what we want. And I keep remembering this curriculum somebody told me about doing as a kid, sort of a Saturday school thing, where they taught american history, patriotism, etc. I'd LOVE to have a curriculum that was just downright, outright PATRIOTIC, kwim? I think that's a great spin for this age.

 

So I wish I had great answers for you. By fall I'll have to chose a path. In the meantime, my suggestion is you find something to drive your TQ time, rather than letting TQ schedule. And on SL, I'd do something moderate like just buying Landmark first. It's an inexpensive step to let you decide what you really want. As the others in your other post said, there are so many components to a well-rounded curriculum MISSING in SL. It's not that what they have is a problem, but what they DON'T have that you might end up missing. And I find there's a difference in expectation as far as the amount of material covered, the explicitness of the coverage, etc. You're covering a LOT of topics if you're doing TQ. VP covers things pretty explicitly and expects students to learn them. SL is more going to let them discuss and retain what they want, knowing they'll see it again more fully in core 100. So it's doing american history, but not quite to the same extent, kwim? I hope nobody takes offense at that, I'm just saying you want to look at the expectations of the program honestly and not think they're all shooting for the same thing.

 

I don't think WP is the ultimate solution, unless you like the DK Children's Encyclopedia of American History that is. On the other hand, that too would be a sequential way of scheduling your TQ time. You could proceed through DK as the spine and read pages/books from TQ as they correlate. You could outline and summarize the DK readings as WTM suggests for the 5th grade history reading. (one sentence summary of each paragraph, then turn those sentences into a nice summary paragraph) For me the kicker is I want it ALL, and all in one place, with all the components (hands-on, writing assignments, patriotic songs, etc.). I've wondered if doing Abeka4 straight would do that for us. Certainly would be easy with the new baby coming. Angela in Ohio did Abeka4 spread over two years, but I just feel sort of insecure how to do that. To me, that's as destructured as TQ, kwim?

 

Just do something moderate and make some moderate steps. Know what you're fixing before you leap, because there probably is no curriculum out there that will make you totally happy. And if you're like me, you have days when you want more hand-holding and days when you feel spunky enough to do it all yourself. Find some balance there.

[Virginia Heather]

Thanks *so* much, Elizabeth... everything you said resonated w/ me! And isn't it just crazy that we can't find what we want-- for this age, I don't think we're being too picky, lol!

 

I think the main reason I haven't taken the plunge w/ Sonlight is b/c I really do like all the reading selections TQ provides. Like you said, I'd miss that w/ Sonlight, I think. I look at the catalog and, while their books do look wonderful, I end up thinking, "Is that all? Where are all the other books?" If I go that route, I don't want to have to flesh it out more-- that defeats the purpose. So perhaps I'll just check out Landmark. I've never seen it, and from what I hear, some like it , some don't, but at least it's not the same expense as an entire core. I think right now I'm just in the hand-holding stage. With a newborn and 3 other littles, I don't have the time I used to to sit and plan, lol!

 

You know, perhaps I'll just look at Tami's schedule again, or even my own. The one I made used the VP cards for structure, just like you said, 1 card a week, but what threw me was the disconnectedness, just like you mentioned. I'd see all these other topics in the TQ guide w/ no mention of them in the cards and I'd end up thinking, "How can we possibly we skip that?" So I guess my problem there is that I'm having trouble picking and choosing what we need to cover and what we can skip. Oh... I'm rambling... Time to think and pray!

 

Thanks again, Elizabeth-- as always, you've given me much food for thought!

 

Have a super day!

Heather

 

P.S. When's your little one due? I just recently noticed in your signature that you're pregnant-- I know, I'm way behind the times here, but congrats!!! We just had another little one 3 months again and while she has certainly added to my work load, she's been a wonderful blessing. Children truly are a gift from the Lord!

[Heather in VA]

Virginia Heather...

 

I just wanted to point out that Winter Promise does not use DK as it's spine anymore. It uses a narrative-type book called The American Story.

 

Heather

[Cinder]

I had planned to use it over 2 years, when ds was in 3d and 4th, but we ended up using it only in 3d. We covered up to right before the Civil War. I broke down the Abeka sections and found books from my library to flesh out those readings a bit. I also added in read-alouds (mainly from SL). I had planned to do the rest of the Abeka 4 in like manner the next year but life happened. We moved to a different state and had a baby. So I used SL4. It worked well for us, but the previous year of making up our own was much more relaxing and fun.

 

Cinder

[PeterPan]

Cinder, when you did Abeka4 that way, did you do the exercises, the workbook, etc, or just read and use it as a springboard?

 

Heather, I didn't realize WP AS has a new spine. I'll have to check it out!

 

Virginia Heather, yes, we're due in September! It wasn't necessarily unwanted (quite the opposite), but it was a surprise. :) As I've never homeschooled with a baby and haven't even had a baby in a long time (9 years seems like an eternity!), I'm really not sure what to expect. I also had a lot of health problems with the last one and was horribly tired post-partum, largely from my thyroid crashing. I'm a lot better now, but I still have that tentativeness, not really knowing for sure what's going to happen, how it will go, whether I'll have energy to do things, etc. I want the most utterly simple, no-brainer, auto-pilot plan for each subject I can imagine so that dd could literally do almost all of it for herself, with minimal guidance on my part if she had to. She sometimes fills in the new page numbers and prints her own daily worksheet, so she could probably take over if she had to, lol. (I wouldn't do that for long, but you get my point.)

 

So anyways, I'm really listening to you when you're saying it fell apart for you. I FEEL it and the potential for it. And like I said, the disconnectedness of the cards bugs me too. Now Angelina around here says using Guerber as a spine made the cards connect adequately, but I'm not real keen on that option. It's just a bit much, I think. The one thing I'm firmly convinced of is something has to drive and something has to take a back seat. So if it's easier to let Abeka4 drive, correlate some activities, and let her read piles of books, so be it. I think the only way to deal with that problem of so many topics in TQ is to look the other way, lol.

 

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. I'm pretty much in the same position you are, just a few months behind, and I appreciate hearing how it's working (or not working) out for you. Once we get past this month, I'll have time to buckle down and decide what we're doing for fall. I'm sure it will come. I HAVE all these things, but I haven't had it gel in my mind or distill down to what drives, what is subservient. I think Abeka4 has one obvious virtue, and that is if she just DID it, as in straight did it, she'd have covered an entire sequential, proper textbook on the subject, nailing the most essential basics. Then everything else would be gravy. In other words it would be that bare-minimum, no-brainer to implement post-partum option that would be adequate and still give her flexibility to do more. It's also occurred to me that she could do it at a more normal pace (whole book in a year) and then go back and do american history AGAIN the following year in more depth with something like Hakim.

[cajun.classical]

Now Angelina around here says using Guerber as a spine made the cards connect adequately, but I'm not real keen on that option. It's just a bit much, I think.

 

Okay, so what happened? I thought dd liked Guerber. Is it the book itself that seems a bit much or having to coordinate chapters with cards?

 

I've had to put a lot of work into our American History studies, coordinating lots of different things to get the course I've wanted. I agree that none of the programs out there, by themselves, was what I wanted either. I've honestly been thinking of writing something up myself for when my youngest comes up. My training is in writing and history so I think I could pull it off. I'm a big proponent of a biographical approach to history so I'm thinking of something along the lines of Famous Men of America. Not that this helps you any. Just thinking out loud.

 

Is the problem here that you're wanting something pick up and go? I'm trying to understand your dilemma so I can give some unsolicited advice. :tongue_smilie:

[PeterPan]

Oh Angelina, you're sweet to notice!! :) You want to know what's really up? I'm pregnant, not sleeping enough (waking up hungry, staying up till 2), working like a DOG to sew curtains for every room in the house to get ready for a party we're hosting at the end of the month (in-laws' 50th anniv.), and I'm just basically overwhelmed and overloaded. I gab for a while online in the morning, then I sew while dd does her schoolwork with her checklist. When I've stood so long hunched over the work tables that my feet and back ache, I sit down and get online, hence being online so often, lol. Yesterday I spent 5 or 6 hours cutting fabric for a valance in the kitchen (it's a big window, had to match patterns), then I stayed up till 2 matching more florals for draperies. Woke up a little before 8 hungry, so a pregnant stomach doesn't even give you the luxury of sleeping in, lol.

 

So yes, with the baby due in September, I'm wanting something to do it for me. And my brain is so overloaded right now that I haven't even really tried to think through american. I'm a terribly one-track person, so having so many things going at once overwhelms me. It's been bringing back my memory problems, etc. (more than you wanted to know!). So I figure once this party is over, I'm going to sit down, be honest with myself, and get decisive. I decided to punt on history this summer and save it for fall. This summer we'll do geography and be done with it. I was going to do that in May, but dd wanted to make it more complicated, going longer, etc. Can you tell punt is my middle name these days?

 

Something changes when you get pregnant, and somehow I've been not only more irritable (oh my!) but more decisive, if that makes sense. Well, not decisive, that's not me, but more accepting of just doing something, anything, and getting it done. So I figure SOMETHING is going to work out. With Guerber, dd liking it isn't decisive to me, because the calculation depends on whether *I* am reading it to her or whether she's reading it for herself. She always appreciates a well-written book, be it Lang's fairy tales or Guerber. That doesn't mean it's the most practical thing for me, kwim? I'm trying to distinguish in my mind the things I plan for her to read vs. what I will read to her and what books would be most profitable in those categories. My concern with Guerber is that she's young enough to profit from me reading it to her and discussing it with her, but I'm going to be tired enough that I might fall asleep every time, lol. Let's just say I haven't read history to her for a long time, because I invariably fall asleep. I don't love history anyway, and it's just easier if I have a concisie source (the VP cards, a discussion list in a tm, whatever) to discuss with her. Then she does all the reading for herself. I'm not sure she'd get enough from Guerber if she read it all herself. And sometimes I guilt-trip myself, thinking I OUGHT to be reading a spine to her, blah blah, but that hasn't been our reality for quite a while now. She's so deliciously happy reading for herself, and I just need to make sure that her reading gets discussed enough with me or analyzed through activities, worksheets, etc. that it turns into retention, synthesis, connections and understanding, if that makes sense. I'm saying it's highly unlikely I'd read a spine to her, as much as I'd like to THINK I would and tell myself I would. Just being honest.

 

I appreciate your honesty in saying you've spent a lot of time this year making the history what you wanted it to be. I vascillate with that, sometimes thinking I want to do that (or can) and sometimes feeling overwhelmed and wanting someone to do it all for me. Unfortunately, that perfect program doesn't exist! Yes, I've thought about the famous men approach. In fact, I have a large number of the oop COFA's with activities, terms, comp questions, etc. in the back and have thought about turning them into a curriculum. (more punting) So I actually have LOTS of great options for fall, but almost all of them would need some organization on my part, the very thing I haven't had any brainpower left to give these days. However this party will pass by the end of the month, and after our June break I'll be able to come back fresh and really decide something. I'm totally open to any wisdom or suggestions you have. The baby is due the end of September, and as it's been a LONG time, I have no clue what to expect. Last time my health totally crashed post-partum. I don't EXPECT that this time, as we're taking much better care of my thyroid, etc., but I still don't know what to expect, kwim? I could fly through this, or I could be on the couch for two months. I don't want dd's academic world to fall apart with that, and I don't want our history to degrade to just reading. I really feel she's at an age where she needs to do a bit more with it.

 

So there you go, way more than you were expecting! :)

[Cinder]

Cinder, when you did Abeka4 that way, did you do the exercises, the workbook, etc, or just read and use it as a springboard?

 

 

 

Abeka was my spine/springboard. We did the review questions at the end of the sections/chapters orally. I used only the student text; I didn't get any of the other resources that go along it. Sometimes ds would narrate something from one of the supplemental readings (library books). That's all we did for history that year--read aloud, review, narrate. I think we did history 2-3 times a week then.

 

Cinder