If you use paypal ***please read****

[DONOVAN7]

I thought i'd share my latest experience with paypal to you all. just an FYI- I just sold some books via paypal and sent them media mail. I had a recipt with the buyers city, state, zip code and the date i sent the package from the PO. Needless to say- it never arrived and I (the seller) had to pay the buyer back as well as all shipping charges etc even though i was the only one who had a recipt that proved i sent it. Because there was no tracking, paypal said " they could not prove that the PO lost it" , rediculous i know- i argued for over an hour with manager after manager. How, with proof i ended up paying that is beyond me.. but thats how paypal works. I thought as a 'confirmed' customer i was protected if a package was lost- not so. Paypal removed the funds from my account- nothing i could do. So, ALWAYS send your packages with tracking at least or YOU ( the seller) are responsible for the loss. I detest paypal myself but it is convenient!! I can't be the only one with an experience like this, Let me know what you think...... or any other helpful "know how's' re paypal.

Thanks, Dawn

[Just Another Jen]

Is delivery confirmation the same as tracking?

I've sent books just media rate tons of times and only kept my receipt. That is terrible. Paypal is convenient, but with policies like that I'll have to rethink them.

Thanks for the warning.

[misidawnrn]

I always get Delivery Confirmation. I know that isn't as good as insurance but at least you can prove it was mailed (if the stupid post office scans it in!) The one and only time I didn't ship with DC, I had my sister mail the book for me because I had to work and I know she mailed it because she gave me the receipt and the change...yep, "it never got there". In this case, I had to take the buyers word for it that it never got there. Maybe the buyer wasn't honest because I told them my sister didn't get DC but either way I had to pay her back, then I was out the $$ and the book!:glare:

So, I learned my lesson!

[clarkacademy]

I hate to say this but is there any way people are just saying that they never got it?? I just seem to come across these posts all the time and it really makes me wonder. In 34 years the only thing that someone mailed me and I never got was a magazine. A week later found out it was a number off and it went to my neighbor. I am just really wondering if people get these things and look at them and say..it wasn't worth it. Isn't it also the buyer who is suppose to get insurance and all that as well?

[Mrs Mungo]

I hate to say this but is there any way people are just saying that they never got it?? I just seem to come across these posts all the time and it really makes me wonder. In 34 years the only thing that someone mailed me and I never got was a magazine. A week later found out it was a number off and it went to my neighbor. I am just really wondering if people get these things and look at them and say..it wasn't worth it. Isn't it also the buyer who is suppose to get insurance and all that as well?

 

We've lived far from our families the whole time we've been married. As a result, there is a LOT of shipping back and forth. I have had about 4 packages in that time go missing. Two of them I received a *piece* of the package later. I've had two or three things broken.

 

Yes, the buyer is supposed to pay for insurance. But, at this point? Sellers are better off including the insurance in the shipping cost.

 

BTW, I won't ship media mail any more. There are two occasions when it took 6 weeks for a media mail item to arrive to me. People start freaking out at about two weeks.

[Night Elf]

Yes, the buyer is supposed to pay for insurance. But, at this point? Sellers are better off including the insurance in the shipping cost.

 

Except some buyers refuse to pay for it because of the costs. I can only assume that when their package goes missing, the fault belongs to the seller. I've gotten tired of the hassle of selling online. I've got some stuff to sell and I'm really dreading it! My alternative is to donate it to Good Will. I don't get any money but I get the product out of my house without the hassle of dealing with a buyer and the post office. I never use media mail either. I'm not confident with my post office for them to get my package out or receive a package from them safely.

[Sue G in PA]

I paid a boatload of money via Paypal for a curriculum set that never arrived. It's been months now. I corresponded with the seller who said she shipped it. No tracking number or delivery conf. (I didn't pay extra for that so I didn't expect there to be any). I asked her to pay me back half of what I paid her but never heard back from her. Honestly, I only asked that hoping to recover some of my $ so I could buy the program from somebody else. But, I never really expected the seller to reimburse me. She did her part...she shipped it. The PO obviously lost it. That is not her fault or mine. It just is. I'm sorry Paypal made you pay her back. That is ridiculous. I learned my lesson...buy insurance for expensive curriculum.

[LittleIzumi]

:grouphug: Yup, you have to purchase as "goods" with DC for PP to accept it. If there is no DC saying "delivered," PP will side for the buyer. Stinks if you're the seller & a package got lost & then you refund, and it also stinks if you buy curricula and it never arrives and the person didn't use DC & you're stuck with no money and no product as well. The person sending may think the buyer is scamming and the buyer may think the seller never sent it, etc. I wish insurance worked better, or that the PO would do something about lost packages besides keep an eye out just in case it ever happens to turn up (which is what they told me in one of my several no-show incoming packages). I can't afford to buy something & have it not show up, bleh. I had PP find in my favor once for an item I bought that never showed (no communication whatsoever, no DC, no package, nothing) but they had no money in their account so I was just out my money & had nothing to show for it.

[sheryl]

Thanks, Dawn, for sharing this information!

[Tap]

This situation stinks, sorry you are going through it.

 

 

I have a general questions for people: Why is is the buyers responsibility to get insurance? To me the insurance is as much for the seller as it is the buyer. It is insurance on the package from point A to B. I understand that it results in the buyer getting paid back, but it protects the seller from being the one to do so.

 

When I ship a package, I add delivery confirmation and insurance into the price of shipping or into the price of the item if I am selling it PPD. I have also ONLY offered priority mail on small, expensive items, to help it arrive expediently.

 

I will NOT use media mail with Paypal. If the allotted time passes for them to file a claim, and the package hasn't arrived, they can still cause me issues on my Paypal account (essentially freezing funds in it)....even though it was a typical media mail time frame. TOOO many potential problems.

 

I would love to think that most people are honest, but unfortunately there are many, many bad people who insist on making money off of trusting people.

[DONOVAN7]

Thanks for the replies.... i knew i couldn't be the only one!! It is simply my intention to try to make sure it does not happen to any one else, although i'm sure it will as long s we continue to use paypal's services. I saw another blog about it recently from another mama and decided that since i wasn't going to get any satisfaction through paypal- i would at least put their policies out there. Their policies are really terrible- you pay a fee to an unnecessary middleman (paypal) and they dictate these unfair policies. So, moving on in life, feeling better to have warned some! I think the lesson is that although convenient, there are other more trustworthy options out there! I had just always felt that i had protection through paypal- the reality is you DO NOT! Take care all!! Dawn

[Jennifer in MI]

I have a general questions for people: Why is is the buyers responsibility to get insurance? .

 

I include it automatically to protect myself. This way, if there is a claim against my Paypal account, I can get my money back. I did have this happen once, unfortunately. I was really lucky though because the person who bought it from me worked with the PO to get her money back.

[LizzyBee]

I factor insurance in my prices when I sell curriculum. Not only does it protect me, but the po seems to be more careful with insured packages.

 

Long ago, someone posted a quote from the postal regulations stating that it is the seller's responsibility to deliver goods. It doesn't matter whether the seller is a business or not. If I buy insurance, I have proof that the pkg was mailed, and I can obtain reimbursement if the pkg never arrives.

[Gooblink]

I always get delivery confirmation at minimum, and if the item is worth more than $25 I insure it. Anything with a value less $25 (arbitrary number), I figure I can "afford" to lose if it came to that.

 

It kills me to see posts like this when it only costs a few bucks more to prevent it.

[melissel]

Long ago, someone posted a quote from the postal regulations stating that it is the seller's responsibility to deliver goods. It doesn't matter whether the seller is a business or not. If I buy insurance, I have proof that the pkg was mailed, and I can obtain reimbursement if the pkg never arrives.

 

I think this is a terrible scam on the part of the post office. Delivery confirmation also proves the package was mailed, and should even make it trackable. Then if it's lost, it's still the seller's responsibility? IMO, that's ridiculous.

 

I've also heard that getting reimbursed via your insurance by the post office is like pulling teeth (although this was years ago--maybe it's easier now?).

[Miss Sherry]

Just a few months ago some books I purchased never arrived. I also did not receive another piece of mail at Christmas time.

 

The other day I sold a book on here and I charged enough to cover postal insurance.

If you want to be reimbursed if a package does not arrive be sure to charge for postal insurance. It does happen that packages get lost/destroyed in the mail. I have had a couple of packages arrive with the packaging barely intact and a couple more with the boxes torn open.

[Miss Sherry]

Thanks for the replies.... i knew i couldn't be the only one!! It is simply my intention to try to make sure it does not happen to any one else, although i'm sure it will as long s we continue to use paypal's services. I saw another blog about it recently from another mama and decided that since i wasn't going to get any satisfaction through paypal- i would at least put their policies out there. Their policies are really terrible- you pay a fee to an unnecessary middleman (paypal) and they dictate these unfair policies. So, moving on in life, feeling better to have warned some! I think the lesson is that although convenient, there are other more trustworthy options out there! I had just always felt that i had protection through paypal- the reality is you DO NOT! Take care all!! Dawn

 

Paypal doesn't lose packages in the mail.How is it not "trustworthy" of them if your package doesn't get delivered ? They have no control over the delivery of your item. You need to purchase postal insurance if you want to be reimbursed for lost packages. Just be sure to charge enough to cover postal insurance or ask the buyer to add in that amount when they pay you.

You do not have to use paypal. You could ask the buyer to send a money order or a check. But they may not want to take the time to go purchase a money order, or use up gas driving somewhere to do that.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Miss Sherry

[melissel]

When I buy something from a business, it is their responsibility to get the item to me... and to deal with getting reimbursement from their shipper if something went wrong. I see no reason for a different expectation when I purchase from an individual.

 

...and I will not purchase from a seller who charges extra for the "option" of insurance or DC and otherwise refuses to take responsibility for getting my item to me. Factor it into your overall price, absolutely, but tacking it on as optional feels wrong to me and does not lessen the seller's legal obligation.

 

Delivery confirmation *does not* prove that the item arrived at the address to which it was addressed, btw. I have had more than one package delivered to a different location and been told by the seller that the post office had it marked as delivered. Fortunately, the folks who received my items took the time to redeliver them, but that doesn't always happen.

 

I do wish the post office were more accountable, but as both a buyer and a seller, I believe the seller is accountable for getting the item to the buyer, and covering the loss if it goes astray. How s/he deals with the loss and the shipper is his/her issue, it shouldn't impact the buyer.

 

Homeschooling moms aren't businesses though. We're not making a markup on the sale of our products--in the vast majority of cases, we're losing money, and we don't have an inventory of additional products to re-ship. It's easy to say that we should factor the cost of insurance into a sale, but the $2 that it costs to add insurance could be the difference between getting an item sold and not getting an item sold. In reality, we'll be eating that cost. And even if we did mark the price up $2, isn't the buyer paying that extra cost anyway? What if the buyer would rather save the $2 and take their chances? I'd much rather be upfront about offering the buyer the choice between saving a few bucks or paying for insurance rather than taking that choice away from them. Just last week I was offered that choice and was happy to take it.

 

Of course DC doesn't prove that an item reached its destination, but it does prove that the item was actually mailed. I don't see how what happens to it after that is the seller's fault. I would never dream of asking a seller who could prove to me that they mailed an item to reimburse me for the post office's screw-up, especially when they have no proof whatsoever that I'm actually telling the truth and the item wasn't received or was received damaged.

Edited March 13, 2011 by melissel

[Miss Sherry]

Homeschooling moms aren't businesses though. We're not making a markup on the sale of our products--in the vast majority of cases, we're losing money, and we don't have an inventory of additional products to re-ship.

 

:iagree: Yes, homeschool Moms are not businesses. If you want to deal with someone that operates just like a business than you should use Barnes and Noble or some other business to purchase books from.

I've sold dozens of books. But the books I have sold that I purchased new were all sold at a loss. Some business. :tongue_smilie::lol:

[LittleIzumi]

Of course DC doesn't prove that an item reached its destination, but it does prove that the item was actually mailed.

 

Depends, actually. Anyone could print a shipping label at home (that comes with built-in DC) and then never send the package. DC would just show the first step, that the PO was electronically notified to expect the package, & nothing else. Sometimes that's all it shows on items I purchase until they arrive in my box, as it's delivery confirmation & is only required to be scanned at delivery. So a person could easily provide a valid DC number without leaving home & never mail it.

[melissel]

Depends, actually. Anyone could print a shipping label at home (that comes with built-in DC) and then never send the package. DC would just show the first step, that the PO was electronically notified to expect the package, & nothing else. Sometimes that's all it shows on items I purchase until they arrive in my box, as it's delivery confirmation & is only required to be scanned at delivery. So a person could easily provide a valid DC number without leaving home & never mail it.

 

You are right. However, I wouldn't consider a DC number that shows only a "USPS has been notified to expect this package" to be proof of mailing. I'm referring to a DC number that can show that the item was received and processed by the PO. I've done a lot of shipping and receiving over the years and have only ever had a DC number never show processing when I knew it actually was a few times--sometimes it wasn't updated until receipt of the package, and sometimes it took a few days afterward, but 95% of the time, it indicated some further phase in the processing of the package. In that case, as a seller with no actual third-party proof that I'd mailed the package, I would feel obligated to refund the buyer's money.

Edited March 13, 2011 by melissel

[melissel]

But the post office, as I understand it, does not make such a distinction. The responsibility for getting the item to the buyer is the seller's. And that doesn't change depending on the financial resources of the seller.

 

I understand, which is why I said that it's a nice little scam on the part of the post office, because they're washing their hands of their own responsibility unless you pay even more for their services. Regardless of their rules, I would never force a single seller to reimburse me if they could prove they mailed the item. I just don't think it's ethical, no matter how the post office sees it. As Miss Sherry said, if I wanted a guarantee, I wouldn't buy from a FSOT board; I'd pay the extra money and buy new.

 

ETA and sort of OT: It's funny, but I've had more problems with Half.com and Amazon Marketplace than I've ever had buying here or on VegSource--to the point where I won't buy from Amazon third-party sellers anymore (and I don't generally find Half.com to be that competitively priced these days).

Edited March 13, 2011 by melissel

[Slartibartfast]

Except some buyers refuse to pay for it because of the costs.

 

And I would tell them to purchase from someone else. I wouldn't sell something online without DC.

 

 

 

I have mailed tons of packages over the years and received them. I have only had one box go missing (A christmas gift!! :() everything else arrived. I have had somethings take over 3 weeks (not even media mail!) and I was already working it out with seller when it arrived all the sudden like with a really old post mark.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Sis

[shanvan]

I have been on the other end of this situation as a buyer who received 1/4 of the product because the rest fell out. The seller shipped extremely heavy items in a saltine box! She would not work with me in any way (I had suggested about 1/2 of the $$ as a refund). I was very thankful for paypal's policy. As a result I learned a lot about what Paypal requires of buyers and sellers.

 

Paypal advises all sellers that the purchase of insurance is the seller's responsibility. A seller cannot make it an option for the buyer to purchase it. The seller is responsible for the item until it is received by the buyer. A buyer cannot be expected to insure an item that he/she does not already own. He/she is not the owner until it is in his or her possession. Paypal suggests that the seller either make insurance mandatory, or realize they are taking a risk. It is all written in Paypal policy. As a seller I only insure when the items are over $20 - 25. When I don't insure I know there is a risk I might have to reimburse if something happens. I have never had anyone claim they never received an item.

Edited March 13, 2011 by shanvan

[shanvan]

I understand, which is why I said that it's a nice little scam on the part of the post office, because they're washing their hands of their own responsibility unless you pay even more for their services. :iagree: And I have to add, it can be very difficult to collect on postal insurance. My husband was unable to collect on insurance he purchased for a painting that was damaged in transit to a gallery.

Regardless of their rules, I would never force a single seller to reimburse me if they could prove they mailed the item. I just don't think it's ethical, no matter how the post office sees it. As Miss Sherry said, if I wanted a guarantee, I wouldn't buy from a FSOT board; I'd pay the extra money and buy new.

 

This is the part I can't agree with completely because of the type of so called 'packaging' I have seen used by sellers who obviously didn't care about the condition of the item upon arrival.

 

ETA and sort of OT: It's funny, but I've had more problems with Half.com and Amazon Marketplace than I've ever had buying here or on VegSource--to the point where I won't buy from Amazon third-party sellers anymore (and I don't generally find Half.com to be that competitively priced these days).

 

 

I'm also becoming more leary of Amazon and half after some recent scares with items I purchased.

[melissel]

This is the part I can't agree with completely because of the type of so called 'packaging' I have seen used by sellers who obviously didn't care about the condition of the item upon arrival.

 

Hm, OK, this is a very good point. I tend to pack pretty carefully (and with loads of tape), but now that I think about it, I've received a few books that were packed kind of ridiculously. I'm sorry about your Saltines!

[shanvan]

Hm, OK, this is a very good point. I tend to pack pretty carefully (and with loads of tape), but now that I think about it, I've received a few books that were packed kind of ridiculously. I'm sorry about your Saltines!

 

:lol: :lol: We didn't even get any leftover crackers to eat! At least that would have been some consolation.

[snipsnsnailsx5]

I thought i'd share my latest experience with paypal to you all. just an FYI- I just sold some books via paypal and sent them media mail. I had a recipt with the buyers city, state, zip code and the date i sent the package from the PO. Needless to say- it never arrived and I (the seller) had to pay the buyer back as well as all shipping charges etc even though i was the only one who had a recipt that proved i sent it. Because there was no tracking, paypal said " they could not prove that the PO lost it" , rediculous i know- i argued for over an hour with manager after manager. How, with proof i ended up paying that is beyond me.. but thats how paypal works. I thought as a 'confirmed' customer i was protected if a package was lost- not so. Paypal removed the funds from my account- nothing i could do. So, ALWAYS send your packages with tracking at least or YOU ( the seller) are responsible for the loss. I detest paypal myself but it is convenient!! I can't be the only one with an experience like this, Let me know what you think...... or any other helpful "know how's' re paypal.

Thanks, Dawn

 

Uggh I have had issues with Ebay and Paypal too. Its unfortunate that they pretty much have a monopoly on internet auctions and paying electronically! lol

 

In one case, it was similar to yours. The person said he/she didn't get the item. I had proof I sent it, but I couldn't prove where it went from there. For all I know the person got the item and just said they didn't. Paypal first took the funds from my account during the investigating of the case, and my account was linked directly to my bank account so that I could transfer my Paypal money to my account or pay people with it - using my bank account balance if my Paypal amount didn't cover it. So when they froze the money it came out of my bank accoutn because I didn't have anything in my Paypal account at that time. We live a tight budget. That was not good for us to have that money just taken out without being able to prepare for something like that.

Grrrr

 

Sorry you had to deal with that!

 

I always thought that "seller not responsible for shipping loss/damage" was enough on an auction. But obviously its not.

Now I require shipping insurance on anything over $20 that I'm selling on Ebay. Otherwise if the item gets ruined, *I* have to pay it back.

Also, when I print labels online via Paypal, it automatically does delivery confirmation w/tracking. That is a must too.

[Nature]

I have a friend who works at the post office and told me that it’s pretty common that packages get damaged in the machines—which causes the contents to get separated from the address. Other times, the address is difficult to read or the label falls off.

 

USPS holds auctions at their Mail Recovery Centers on a regular basis for all of those 'lost' items.

 

He suggested to include your address with all individual items with your parcel. For example, if you mail four books, put a sheet of paper with your address in each book.

 

I wonder where we could find out the exact statistics of lost mail.

[prairiewindmomma]

Frustrating, isn't it?

 

I had a package (with two years of used TOG printed inside) that I purchased this past summer. The box broke apart somewhere in Iowa. Because the package was insured, the seller was able to take her paypal receipt in and become reimbursed and then refund my money to me. If you don't have a paypal receipt or some other type of documentation of purchase amount, it is nearly impossible to file a claim with the USPS.

[Mynyel]

Maybe someone can explain to me how it is the sellers responsibility to get someone a package when the post office (or any other carrier) loses the package? How can sellers be held accountable for what the middle man does? Sellers can't hold the carriers hand as they handle the package.

 

I am talking about personal selling transactions too, not companies who usually have special rates and contacts and such with carriers.

[abacus2]

Hm, OK, this is a very good point. I tend to pack pretty carefully (and with loads of tape), but now that I think about it, I've received a few books that were packed kind of ridiculously. I'm sorry about your Saltines!

 

The packaging issue is a huge one. I'd guess a large percentage of "lost" packages are actually broken packages. A couple months ago I ordered some used books from an individual and received only the brown paper she had used to wrap the items. She was honorable and refunded my money, but I was shocked that she attempted to send books wrapped in a single layer of brown paper.

[missesd]

Honestly, I have done a lot of purchasing over the years. Here's what I think (fwiw):

 

It's the sellers responsibility to get DC, BUT the buyers job to pay for it. I also cover any PP fees when I pay as well. Some could say it's the price you pay for selling (like overhead), but I feel it's the right thing to do as a buyer. Why should they take a loss, just cause PP takes it out?? However, the seller could roll it into the final price, and that would be ok too.

[cindergretta]

I don't understand how a buyer should be held responsible for something they pay for but don't receive. :confused:

 

Proper steps should be taken by the *shipper* (usually the seller) to ensure it is packaged properly and insured. If necessary, include it in the price of the item.

 

(I knew a woman who sold a very pricey camera and then packaged it in a thin cardboard box with plastic shopping bags for cushion. The camera was severely damaged in the mail. She had already spent the money and felt the buyer was responsible. :glare: There is a lot more to the story, but the bottom line was, the seller didn't take any care in shipping it or insuring it and then expected the buyer to just suck up the loss. Not cool. Dishonest people can and do happen on both ends of transactions. Therefore, each party shold take whatever steps they can to protect themselves, including sturdy packaging, purchasing insurance, and saving all receipts related to the transaction. JMHO I do a fair amount of buying, but very little selling. Why? I don't want the hassle of ensuring my stuff gets into a buyer's hands. :D )

[Miss Sherry]

Maybe someone can explain to me how it is the sellers responsibility to get someone a package when the post office (or any other carrier) loses the package? How can sellers be held accountable for what the middle man does? Sellers can't hold the carriers hand as they handle the package.

 

I am talking about personal selling transactions too, not companies who usually have special rates and contacts and such with carriers.

I honestly wonder how many packages that don't show up is because they were improperly packaged by the seller in the first place. I have received a few books that were coming out of the envelopes they were mailed in because they were too heavy to be mailed in an envelope. I've also received books in boxes that were coming apart. The boxes were old and looked like they'd already been used a few too many times.

I think packages are lost due to rough/poor handling by the post office or improper packaging by sellers or a combination of those things.

[Miss Sherry]

The packaging issue is a huge one. I'd guess a large percentage of "lost" packages are actually broken packages. A couple months ago I ordered some used books from an individual and received only the brown paper she had used to wrap the items. She was honorable and refunded my money, but I was shocked that she attempted to send books wrapped in a single layer of brown paper.

:iagree: Yes, I agree the packaging issue is a huge one. I don't know how many books I have received that were very poorly packaged. I think it's a miracle that some of them made it to me without coming completely out of the wrapping.

[Laura Corin]

Can't you claim from the post office? In the UK, if you have a proof of postage (the receipt with the address etc. on it) then the mailing price includes compensation up to £41 if the package is lost.

 

Laura

[Disney Dreaming]

As crummy as this is for the seller when it happens I think it makes sense to hold them responsible for these problems. Yes there are dishonest customers, but if they didn't have a policy like this, what would stop someone/anyone from falsely selling things? I could make up a fake identity, sell imaginary something or others, and move on to do it on another selling site. It would take awhile for anyone to figure me out.

 

I don't sell anything online anymore. It's not worth the few bucks for so many headaches.

 

I am thinking the same thing. The bad thing is that everyone is going to stop reselling if this continues, and the only option will be to buy new. I have been very fortunate, I ship carefully and I take my packages to the PO and get dc. They scan at the local PO, so it is obvious that it left my hands. If someone is only selling for a few dollars and then has to pay for insurance, they may not even make up the shipping charges-you would be better donating them. I already am hesitant on reselling because everyone is wanting items for almost free, not so much on this site but another one. I sell for 1/2 of what I paid unless I just purchased and used it a couple of times and decide I'm not going to use it. This is just not right for those selling...I like to have some money to buy next years books, and my items are ALWAYS in great condition(since I only use it with 1 child), so whoever buys my items normally gets a book in almost new condition. I guess now I have to think do I really want to continue selling or just donate to Goodwill or someone local who needs the items.

[Nature]

I’ve also received packages of several books wrapped in a thin paper bag. One time, the package arrived—torn, with the remaining books damaged. It looked like the package got wet too.

 

If I’m mailing something heavy or more than a couple books, I like to find a box. I wrap them in plastic bags and provide lots of cushioning for the books.