razorbackmama Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I have to admit I'm in the :glare: category on this simply due to my preference in using evidence-based strategies, but I'm willing to be persuaded, since perhaps I'm just not aware of some evidence.;) I just got back from meeting with Dr. Hellerstein about my 12yo. She feels he lies more in the gifted realm, but since his reading ability doesn't match up to his potential, she's recommending vision therapy. She says he is HIGHLY visual and is quite gifted in that department. When it came to having him see patterns or something, they actually struggled with finding something challenging enough for him. (Not surprising.) ANYHOO. His spelling is merely average, and she knows I am using Barton with him (along with everyone else). She seems to pooh-pooh the use of phonics with him since it's an auditory thing and he is so visual. So she recommended what sounded like exactly like what Dianne Craft recommends when it comes to spelling: looking at the shape, visualizing what the word looks like, using pictures and lots of creativity, etc. So my question: Is there any evidence showing that this method is good for visual learners? Or anyone? She even suggested this for my dyslexic (since dyslexics tend to be very visual as well), but I plan to ignore that since the evidence so strongly points in favor of O-G methods for dyslexics. And I'm leaning toward ignoring it for my 12yo as well since the evidence is so strong for phonics in general being so good for ANYONE. But I thought maybe y'all might know if there is any evidence for what she is saying. Do visual-spatial learners really learn to spell BETTER with these "right-brained" techniques than with O-G methods? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 In Right-Brained Children in a Left-Brained World, Jeffrey Freed points out that right-brained learners tend to learn from whole to parts. Phonics is a parts to whole approach. He likes to teach the kids he tutors groups of words that follow a pattern by sight, then point out the phonics/spelling rule. I think that's a valid approach for some kids, because it's not leaving out the phonics, just teaching it in a different manner. That said, his suggestions for teaching spelling in a visual way didn't really work for my VSL. My 14 yo is a strong VSL, and Calvert Spelling on CD (the old version) worked like a miracle drug for her after years of struggling with phonics. It's actually a multisensory approach**, although the kinesthetic aspect is moving tiles on the computer using a mouse rather than real tiles. However, when she was in 5th grade and finally began reading longer chapter books with lots of multisyllabic words, the phonics finally clicked for her. If I could do it over again with her, I'd try to find a way to teach phonics that wasn't so frustrating for her, but I would still teach phonics. ** I don't want to be misunderstood; Calvert Spelling on CD is not OG; as I'm sure you know, OG involves much more than multisensory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacefully Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission-Driven-Mom Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Stevenson Learning Skills sounds like what you are describing. I am using it with 2 of my kids...and I have seen it really help them remember things that they otherwise were struggling with. It is favorable for the "right-brained" individual. They also do mental imagery or visualization for vocabulary and spelling. I believe this to be good for the kids that do this naturally and for the ones who need to learn to do this. BTW-You can purchase just the spelling program too...which I would recommend if reading fluency is not a problem. We are overall happy with it. http://www.stevensonlearning.com/Language_skills/description.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merry gardens Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) I have to admit I'm in the :glare: category on this simply due to my preference in using evidence-based strategies, but I'm willing to be persuaded, since perhaps I'm just not aware of some evidence.;) I just got back from meeting with Dr. Hellerstein about my 12yo. She feels he lies more in the gifted realm, but since his reading ability doesn't match up to his potential, she's recommending vision therapy. She says he is HIGHLY visual and is quite gifted in that department. When it came to having him see patterns or something, they actually struggled with finding something challenging enough for him. (Not surprising.) ANYHOO. His spelling is merely average, and she knows I am using Barton with him (along with everyone else). She seems to pooh-pooh the use of phonics with him since it's an auditory thing and he is so visual. So she recommended what sounded like exactly like what Dianne Craft recommends when it comes to spelling: looking at the shape, visualizing what the word looks like, using pictures and lots of creativity, etc. So my question: Is there any evidence showing that this method is good for visual learners? Or anyone? She even suggested this for my dyslexic (since dyslexics tend to be very visual as well), but I plan to ignore that since the evidence so strongly points in favor of O-G methods for dyslexics. And I'm leaning toward ignoring it for my 12yo as well since the evidence is so strong for phonics in general being so good for ANYONE. But I thought maybe y'all might know if there is any evidence for what she is saying. Do visual-spatial learners really learn to spell BETTER with these "right-brained" techniques than with O-G methods? I have no idea if there is any truth or any research to back up that particular advice. However, I'm a little familiar with a slightly different visual techniques to help with spelling. LMB's Seeing Stars may not be quite as well documented as O-G and Lindamood-Bell's LiPS programs, but it has been researched and shown to be effective. SS combines some of those methods along with visualizing to improve reading and spelling. It uses a somewhat similar technique to what Barton does for sight words. (The technique Barton uses for sight words can be applied to other words, too.) Children learn to "picture" common words in their heads--not just the shape but the actual letters. To make sure they are picturing the words, the manual suggests asking them to spell the words backwards. Some of what I have read about vision therapy sounds like this type of technique of picturing words in the mind might be part of what some people consider vision therapy. As to your child being gifted---very cool! A person's strengths can pull up his weaknesses--and his weaknesses can pull down his strengths. I don't know all the details of your children's auditory processing problems, but I would think that the type of things you are doing with phonics will help build up your children in the area where they are weaker. I understand the idea of using the strengths of "right-brained" thinkers, but honestly, who wants their children working with only half their brains? ;) You can work with your child's strengths while also working towards improving the other areas. Then his weaknesses might not pull his strengths down as far. You are wise to want proven methods to help your children. You already know this, but I think it worth mentioning that O-G methods may use phonics, but the methods used are not just auditory--they are multi-sensory. If you want something more to supplement along with the other things you are doing, then there are some visual techniques for spelling that you might try that can work along with phonics. Edited March 9, 2011 by merry gardens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonor Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Have you looked at www.visualspatial.org? She wrote Upside-Down Briliiance The Visual Saptial Learner by Silverman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorbackmama Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 Thanks, everyone! I'd say more, but my 14mo woke up before 5:30 am this morning and is melting down. Meanwhile we have a full day of school to do amidst all the screaming. Good times, good times.... I'll try to come back to this later.:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonor Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) According to Discover Your Child's Learning Styles, there are 2 types of visual learners: Visual--print Visual--image (the more spatial child). Even if he is a visual child can still have issues with spelling because they do not visualize the print. I have always been a very good speller and as a child won spelling bees. I visualize the word as it is printed. I make a mental picture of it. However, for others, adding images to the word helps. Dianne Craft is not the only one to say this. Pat Wyman from HowtoLearn.com (wrote Learning vs. Testing, Strategies that Bridge the Gap). As I mentioned www.visualspatial.org in previous post, another book with strategies from said site, is If You Could See the Way I Think, A Handbook for Visual-Spatial Kids, by Alexandra Shires Golon, and many others. One suggestion Dianne Craft gives which I think is good. When you have a child correct the spelling of a word, as he looks up in the way that his mind is making a mental picture, have him spell it verbally(orally) forwards and backwards. This backwards spelling seems to cement it in the brain. I have not used cards with pictures on it. However, every child is different. Edited March 9, 2011 by Leonor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauranc Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 "level 5" in his therapy. C) We started using Kenneth Lane's spelling workbook, which is very similar to some of the Apples and Pears "word hunt" exercises. For some reason, that type of visual patterning made things stick with ds. We still use AAS, but we go through the lessons slowly, and I do lots of activities that go waaay beyond tiles and the whiteboard (word hunts, auditory spelling, word sorts, word scrambles, etc.). I. Just wondering what the title of the spelling workbook is. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorbackmama Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 This particular kid is a visual spatial sort. So OK, with visualizing and adding images...would *I* have to come up with the images? Or would he? Could we simply add images to what we're doing now (Barton)? (Oh, and I'm only using Barton with him to brush up on phonics since he has such a weak background in it. He actually reads relatively well, so mostly I'm using it for spelling since I'm using Barton with everyone else that's school-age in our family. He doesn't actually need the intensive stuff with Barton that others in our family do.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Sequential Spelling? I can visualize the words in my head, but I am a much better speller after learning phonics and the phonics rules. I used to be able to ID a wrong word on multiple choice tests gut frequently misspelled the word on my own. Spell checker used to point out an average of 6 words per page before I started phonics tutoring. Now, I misspell one every page or two. I got phonics in K, but just up to CVC words. Then, I got whole language in first grade, but my parents helped me sound out words I could not figure out, so I was reading phonetically but did not have a strong phonics background, which impacted my spelling but not my reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorbackmama Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 Sequential Spelling? It MIGHT work with this kid. We used to use it, but at that point I was focusing on my poor speller, and since it didn't help with her at all, I dropped it. Since this one is Mr. Pattern, it just might work with him though. I'll have to ponder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacefully Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauranc Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiewindmomma Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 We did well with Sequential Spelling for a while. You need to use the method properly to see the results, ime, but for my highly visual child, using different colored inks on a white board worked wonders. We had problems after several months, though, with ds quickly memorizing a pattern but not internalizing the proper spelling of the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ondreeuh Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 My VERY dyslexic son, who maxed out the pattern recognition and sequencing parts of the IQ test, is a terrible speller. TERRIBLE. We tried O-G and I am thoroughly convinced he would never learn to spell with it. It's fine for learning to read, but didn't given him strategies HE could use to spell. We did OK with Sequential Spelling, but he couldn't keep up and I wasn't seeing as much generalizing as I would have liked. Apples & Pears has been INCREDIBLE. It holds his hand and walks him through the steps to create a visual memory of the words & patterns. I *love* that from the start it works on high-frequency "rule breakers" that immediately get used in real writing. Words like said, where, work, was, of. (Yep, my 9.5 year old couldn't even spell "was" and "of" until we used Apples & Pears). He doesn't have to go recall a rule and go through a mental checklist to decide if the rule fits the word - he actually creates a visual memory of the word and spells it right the first time or catches his mistake immediately. I wouldn't put too much stock in studies saying that there's only one best way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I have to admit I'm in the :glare: category on this simply due to my preference in using evidence-based strategies, but I'm willing to be persuaded, since perhaps I'm just not aware of some evidence.;) I just got back from meeting with Dr. Hellerstein about my 12yo. She feels he lies more in the gifted realm, but since his reading ability doesn't match up to his potential, she's recommending vision therapy. She says he is HIGHLY visual and is quite gifted in that department. When it came to having him see patterns or something, they actually struggled with finding something challenging enough for him. (Not surprising.) ANYHOO. His spelling is merely average, and she knows I am using Barton with him (along with everyone else). She seems to pooh-pooh the use of phonics with him since it's an auditory thing and he is so visual. So she recommended what sounded like exactly like what Dianne Craft recommends when it comes to spelling: looking at the shape, visualizing what the word looks like, using pictures and lots of creativity, etc. So my question: Is there any evidence showing that this method is good for visual learners? Or anyone? She even suggested this for my dyslexic (since dyslexics tend to be very visual as well), but I plan to ignore that since the evidence so strongly points in favor of O-G methods for dyslexics. And I'm leaning toward ignoring it for my 12yo as well since the evidence is so strong for phonics in general being so good for ANYONE. But I thought maybe y'all might know if there is any evidence for what she is saying. Do visual-spatial learners really learn to spell BETTER with these "right-brained" techniques than with O-G methods? I'll read the rest of the responses, but no, I don't think any of the analysis we did for SWR (or AAS for that matter) improved my dd's spelling. I think it was important, because you need to know why things work to help you in a pinch. But in general, I think her spelling has improved by SEEING the words a lot: seeing them in books, seeing them in print, seeing them on computer games. So when I did dictation, I would have her read back the sentence, so she could SEE what she wrote. I got her the Calvert spelling online to let her see the words in print more. I got her workbooks (Spelling Works! by Halverson was a fav) to let her see the words and see the rules, over and over, in interesting ways. I'm sure these programs have their place. I just have to, in the end, agree with your eye doc. Do the OG, but give him lots more visual input. There was a lady who used to post on the boards a lot who would have her dc spell the word backwards for quizzing. If he was visualizing it correctly, he could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeidiD Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I wouldn't put too much stock in studies saying that there's only one best way. :iagree: And sometimes a mix of methods is more efficient than a single method. Or a modification of an established method to customize it to someone's particular learning style. But I have doubts that any method(s) alone or combined will be able to turn some kids into proficient spellers. Kids with CAPD may be more successful relying on visual memory for spelling, because they scramble the phonetic sounds in their heads. For instance, my 5 yo keeps saying "Yew Nork" instead of New York, even after hearing it correctly repeated multiple times. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorbackmama Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Apples & Pears has been INCREDIBLE. It holds his hand and walks him through the steps to create a visual memory of the words & patterns. I *love* that from the start it works on high-frequency "rule breakers" that immediately get used in real writing. Words like said, where, work, was, of. (Yep, my 9.5 year old couldn't even spell "was" and "of" until we used Apples & Pears). He doesn't have to go recall a rule and go through a mental checklist to decide if the rule fits the word - he actually creates a visual memory of the word and spells it right the first time or catches his mistake immediately. Is there any sort of placement test? How independent is it? Does it help purely with spelling, or might it help a student that has some rather shaky phonics as well (I'm thinking of another child as well). Do the OG, but give him lots more visual input. I wonder if there is an easy way to do this.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Is there any sort of placement test? How independent is it? Does it help purely with spelling, or might it help a student that has some rather shaky phonics as well (I'm thinking of another child as well). I wonder if there is an easy way to do this.... No, no easy way, lol. ;) If you're getting ready to start VT, I wouldn't even BOTHER with a new program until you have several months under your belt. Really and truly. Put that time into the VT homework. And I agree with the others that there's something about the inputs (auditory or visual) not working right and thus not processing right that makes a hangup when you try to go back and correctively teach. I'll put it another way. It is well known on the boards I worked my butt off with dd, trying to teach her to spell with SWR (and a host of other things I tried along the way, often 3 at a time including large amounts of dictation, workbooks, computer work, etc.). She still could not sound out words and was a scary speller. Two months of VT and she starts asking ME what the sounds are for certain letters because she was trying to sound out words. I bought AAS1-6 to use with her, and now, having completed through 3, don't even think she needs the rest. Improve the input and the processing, and the things that use them get better. When I walked in the door for our VT evaluation, the first thing out of the doc's mouth was to make sure we were teaching with an OG method. Clearly VT docs disagree on this. Definitely you want some OG teaching, because it's the easiest way to find the holes and fill them. Definitely you need spelling in context and with lots of visual input. But you also need the proper foundation, of ability to input and process, for any of it to stick. I would go lightly and give the VT time to work. Just my two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorbackmama Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Good idea. Plus it will be one less thing to deal with. He'll only be needing a couple of months of VT. Dr. H. said maybe 8-10 weeks. He's not very severe - she is mostly recommending it because his reading is not matching up with the other areas, in which he's very advanced. So she wants to help his reading get stronger so he can reach more of his full potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ondreeuh Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 :iagree: And sometimes a mix of methods is more efficient than a single method. Or a modification of an established method to customize it to someone's particular learning style. But I have doubts that any method(s) alone or combined will be able to turn some kids into proficient spellers. Kids with CAPD may be more successful relying on visual memory for spelling, because they scramble the phonetic sounds in their heads. For instance, my 5 yo keeps saying "Yew Nork" instead of New York, even after hearing it correctly repeated multiple times. :tongue_smilie: Yes, and my son has difficulty with articulation. While A&P does reinforce phonics a good amount, it's not the only strategy for spelling. This is why he is finally spelling "of" correctly and not "uve." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ondreeuh Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Is there any sort of placement test? How independent is it? Does it help purely with spelling, or might it help a student that has some rather shaky phonics as well (I'm thinking of another child as well). Yes, there is a placement test http://www.prometheantrust.org/startspelling.htm. And yes, it reinforces phonics. Go to the store page and click "see inside" for both the teacher & student book. Resize your windows so you can see both on your screen. The teacher & student books don't make sense if seen independently. There are exercises for breaking words into sounds. I love the "tips" for identifying digraphs that are then phased away (at first the letters are written in pale gray so the child can trace them as they write the word, then later the spot for the digraph is underlined, and then later there is no clue). For phonics, the program doesn't use a set list of words to be mastered; instead, it uses various words that reinforce the pattern (barn, sharp, car). It will keep adding new words in later lessons that use the pattern (harm). I love how this teaches my son to refer to the sound and generalize the pattern to other words. We're doing a lot of words that use /ow/ now. There are "sight words" that are taught & reinforced alongside the phonics-based words. I think it is a great combo of both methods. (FWIW, I don't "buy it" that all sight words can be taught phonetically - maybe for reading but not for spelling. How can a child learn why "said" is spelled the way it is?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorbackmama Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Yes, there is a placement test http://www.prometheantrust.org/startspelling.htm. And yes, it reinforces phonics. Go to the store page and click "see inside" for both the teacher & student book. Resize your windows so you can see both on your screen. The teacher & student books don't make sense if seen independently. Thanks! I just saw though that it's for kids with "spelling ages" of less than 9.5 years. My 2 that I'm considering this for are way past that. Is there anything that comes AFTER Apples and Pears?:confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ondreeuh Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Spelling Mastery, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorbackmama Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Oh! I just saw there is a level D, but they don't recommend actually STARTING at that level. That might be a better fit...starting at C and then moving onto D. The D level looks more appropriate for them. My "pattern" 12yo would probably do really well with this, I think. My "not so pattern, but he just needs to memorize stuff and needs reinforcement of phonics" might do OK with it too. It looks like it's something I would have to do with them? How long does it take? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ondreeuh Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Yes, it is done together. There is no way for the student to do it independently because a lot of it is done via dictation. It takes us ~ 10-20 minutes to do a level at this point, depending on how clear-headed he is. I expect that the levels get longer as the program progresses. I could guess that A&P doesn't recommend anywhere past the beginning of C is because the method builds on itself. Rather than jumping into late-C or level D, I'd look at Spelling Mastery, which also uses the morpheme approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Kirstin, you would have some other ways to fill in holes on the basics. You could get WRTR from the library and use it for the phonograms and rules. The SWR rules packet is under $10 and comes with a cheat sheet with all the rules on one side, phonograms and sounds on the other. I got AAS because I wanted to take the next step and cover explicitly syllabification, something SWR had not done. The other programs people are mentioning are great. You just want to make sure they're not doing MORE than you need. If all he needs is to hit the phonograms and rules, a $10 resource or library book or quick google might get you there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorbackmama Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Ugh WRTR - NO. lol The kicker is that I don't know what gaps they actually HAVE. They just sort of show up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Oh just the rules and phonograms. I wasn't trying to torture you, lol. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Ugh WRTR - NO. lol The kicker is that I don't know what gaps they actually HAVE. They just sort of show up. You can work through quickly the things on my how to tutor page, it adds in spelling rules to Blend Phonics, it would take a few hours to review them all. What I do with my remedial students is just do a word or two from sections they know well and do the whole section from areas they need help with. It's also really easy that way to do multiple students at once, you cycle between them, with each student doing more or less depending on if they have gaps in that area or not. I don't know if you checked this post or not, I explained it a bit more here: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252789 Oh just the rules and phonograms. I wasn't trying to torture you, lol. :) :lol::lol::lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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