Jump to content

Menu

thoughts on this subject....


sadiegirl
 Share

Recommended Posts

I have 3 nieces that attend public school. My sister-in-law has called on me on various occasions to help with school projects. I'm flattered and I help with ideas as much as I can. These projects vary from a Missouri log cabin to science fair projects to an ABC state book. This last project is to be typed although no formal typing instruction has been taught. When the log cabin projects were turned in, it was common knowledge that most of the parents did ALOT of the work. My sister-in-law does most of the research for my niece and gets the "info" ready for her to piece together these projects. How is this helping the child?

So, my questions for you are:

1. Do you require your "students" to do science/history projects,written reports,posters, or any type of projects for school?

2. If so, how much parent or adult participation is allowed?

3. Do you require your child to type the report or is it to be handwritten?

We do posters, art projects, science experiments, writing assignments(not typed). I enjoy seeing their handwriting as I feel it is a dying art among our youth with text messaging,email,and cell phones. They do typing on the computer but no word processing as of yet.(ages 10 and 12 1/2)

My brother-in-law and sister-in-law never ask about the boys' schoolwork,test scores,etc and from comments about how hard it is for their girls to do homework during the week as well as these projects, I sense they think the boys have it easy being homeschooled. Others in my family would disagree but it stills makes this mama cat want to defend my boys' knowledge and skills. Sorry for such a long email, but I was curious about these homework assignments. I don't ever remember my parents helping me to that degree. I don't do it now for my kids. My kids sometimes get frustrated because I won't help them to the level my sister-in-law will. They see how these kids bring home 100% and know that this was mom and dad and uncle and aunt,etc doing it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When she was 5 she wanted to do a science project (we had visited some science fairs) so I made red, yellow, and blue playdough and she mixed them and documented the resulting colors with crayons. I asked her what she learned, and wrote down two quotes on one of the boards of her 3 panel.

 

She is 11 and she still remembers this fondly. She was a very shy child, but once she had gone around the fair twice and had realized that all of the older kids were presenting their results, she got into it. Each time she asked a kid about his experiment, after he was done telling her about it she would say, "Now would you like to see mine?" and drag him over to hers and walk him through color mixing. This was good for her!

 

Recently she had the assigment to report on English exploration, with a focus on Captain Cook. Since his turned out not to be a colonization or treasure hunting voyage, she ended up ranging far afield. She ended up writing 3 major papers--a one page summary of the reigns of King Charles I, King Charles II, and Oliver Cromwell in between, as well as the founding of the Royal Society (because Charles II chartered the RS, which sent Cook on his trip); a 3 page summary of her overall impressions of English history (This paper was well-written but very quirky. I thought it was interesting to see what her overall view of England was); and a paper about the Magna Carta and its significance to England and to the US. She also interviewed a person who had travelled to England and to Tahiti, documented the history of the British flag, and gotten pictures from her books and the internet. She put this all together onto a presentation board, and then read her 3 main papers to a group of 8 other children.

 

I thought that this was an excellent experience for her. She had to synthesize and reflect on a lot of information, and put it into appropriate context for an only marginally informed audience. She had to present it visually and verbally. The writing had to be thoroughly polished. These, to me, are the key benefits to a project of this type. I find it much easier to require polishing and perfection in something like this that is large in scope and will have an audience than in day to day assignments.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. Do you require your "students" to do science/history projects,written reports,posters, or any type of projects for school?

2. If so, how much parent or adult participation is allowed?

3. Do you require your child to type the report or is it to be handwritten?

 

1. We only do research/narrative type written assignments and science experiments.

 

2. I participate in science experiments. I critique/guide writing assignments.

 

3. We only handwrite stuff so-far.

 

We don't "do" posters or crafty type projects as school assignments. Sometimes my kiddos get a bee in their bonnet to do some type of project. When this happens I try to offer supplies and get out of the way. On Friday, for no obvious reason, they decided the wanted to make an "authentic" Native American village out of clay. We're not currently studying Native Americans, but, hey, whatever. I got out the clay and a few books with illustrations and then let them be. They managed some longhouses and teepees with various firepits and random trees and mountains.:tongue_smilie:

 

If a craft project is student lead and directed - great! If not, I don't think there is all that much value in them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What age children are we talking about? Mine are still pretty young (4 & 7) and they don't do any projects that require them to work independently yet.

 

There's no doubt, in a school setting MANY if not MOST parents assume too much responsibility for their children's work. There are numerous reasons for this -- both well-intended and not so well-intended. Compared to my friends and relatives, I am a "tough" mom. I would prefer my children suffer from their mistakes NOW, rather than when they're older. First, though it's hard for me to witness, the consequences of their mistakes are generally less costly now than they will be later. If they fail a test in 2nd grade, what will it really hurt other than their pride? If they fail a test in high school it will affect their grade which could well be a deciding factor in which college they attend and so on.

 

It all reminds me of living with an alcoholic. "Healthy families acknowledge there's a problem. Unhealthy families hide the dirty little secret and try to look good to the outside world." Parents who rescue their children when they're young in order to look good to others are doing their children a big disservice.

 

Keep up the hard work --- sounds like your boys are lucky to me!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, I disagree with the way that these projects at the public school were handled. I don't think a child should be required to do any kind of project that they aren't developmentally ready for and that they aren't first taught step-by step how to do. They should probably be assigned the project in lots of little chunks in which they are first given instruction and practice. this could then culminate in the larger project at the end of the quarter or semester. If projects are approached this way, the parent wouldn't have to do so much of the project for them. If the child is not doing the project himself, I don't see how he could really learn anything from it. If he isn't learning anything from it, it seems to me that the school is just wasting his time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess it would depend on the age of the student for example-Recentlywe had our co-op's science fair and ds wanted to enter it. He came up with his own scientific question, thought of the materials he would need and developed his own procedure. I made him set up the experiment and record it. He typed up a little journal entry which I proofread and went over the changes with him. I typed up the display board entries as he read them to me, but I made him do all the cutting and spray gluing. I showed him how to arrange everything on the board in the order that made the most sense and was visually appealing but it was like "What should come next?" and "Do think this looks better here or there?" I would say overall I helped about 30% and in the end he won 1st place in his division and he felt good about himself because he did most of the work.

 

We've also done some of the Evan Moore folder reports and he does those on his own. I just try to make sure his cutting is even and his handwriting is neat, but that's about it.

 

I stopped physically helping dd with her projects in about 5th grade. After that and even now I just offer suggestions, but she always does all the work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of my big problems with institutionalized schools is that they do often require projects that are really for the parents to do. They do this so they can look good and say "hey, look at our 3rd graders doing this advanced stuff." It is fake and nonsense and a complete waste of time.

 

I would teach the academic stuff at an age appropriate time..like how to write out a science experiment paper or a 5 paragraph essay. But I would never tell them they have to make a log cabin or a diarama or otherwise. If they want to do it...great. But there is absolutely no value to forcing a child in to this stuff..except maybe to frustrate them and teach them that they cannot do and that it is ok and expected for them to rely on Mom and Dad to do their school work.

 

I find it so ironic that the same schools who send home school work for the parents to do, will turn around and complain about helicopter parents. What do they expect when they assign school work that obviously is for the parents to do? Do they really expect those parents to just hand everything over to the child and never walk in the building and see what is going on inside of there or go on to further "DO" for the child? No wonder colleges are having troubles with parents filling out the college applications and such. Parents have been well trained to do their children's school work, only makes sense it would continue right on in to college. I read in the news the other day that college grads and job recuiters for them often have to deal with the parents of the college grads and negotiate with the parents and so on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've gotten this train of thought from a friend whose dc is in the public schools. Guess I always took it to be that they were doing projects to flesh out the unit study approach they take because they don't actually teach CONTENT. (projects look more impressive?) Sometimes it makes me wonder if I'm doing/requiring enough, but basically I listen, tell her I think it's nifty, then go right back to what we're doing. I just wouldn't talk school any more with those relatives, if it bugs you. Or next time, bring up something YOUR dc are doing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've gotten this train of thought from a friend whose dc is in the public schools. Guess I always took it to be that they were doing projects to flesh out the unit study approach they take because they don't actually teach CONTENT. (projects look more impressive?) Sometimes it makes me wonder if I'm doing/requiring enough, but basically I listen, tell her I think it's nifty, then go right back to what we're doing. I just wouldn't talk school any more with those relatives, if it bugs you. Or next time, bring up something YOUR dc are doing.

 

I think you're right about projects as filler in place of content. I'll never forget my frustration when my second grader, who wasn't yet reading, came home with a book report assignment that included making a diorama. Umm, instead of constructing a shoebox craft project, how about some, you know, extra READING instruction? We began homeschooling two months later.:001_smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Amy in MS

That's a toughie,

 

I tend to help because my daughter is 7, but I'm learning to back off some. She did do one project this year. When we were studying Rome, she made a mosaic (of tissue paper) and (I made) the aqueduct from SOTW, she drew and colored a poster of the Parthenon, and she made a toga (with 1/2 help from me). Then, she made up a little presentation and showed off all the things she/I made and I videoed it (she thought that rocked!)

 

Right now, I don't mind helping, but I know it's something I'll have to watch out for later.

 

I don't know if this helps at all.

 

I like the idea of doing presentations, of some sort, and the incentive of having it videotaped (for kids who are drama-queens/-kings) can really help. :)

 

Amy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When my boys were in 1st grade in PS, their project was to build a castle. I supplied the materials -- boxes, glue, and so forth. They built the castle. Boy were they mad when they took it to school. The other kids had beautiful castles because their parents had built them. I am talking works of art, especially compared to a 6 year old's work.

 

I remember the same thing happened to me in elementary school -- I'd do my projects and their parents would do the other kids' projects. I didn't realize this until I was older. I used to wonder how my classmates ended up with such elaborate projects and figured they were more creative than I.

 

One of the things that made me mad about PS was how many projects the teacher sent home for the parents to complete with the child. I told the teacher and principal to forget it -- no school will manipulate how our family spends time together. Make no mistake about it, the school was trying to make sure that families spend "quality time" together -- that was their stated mission, and it was because so many parents work and "don't have time for their kids".

 

My kids do projects when they want to, and if they need something, they ask me for it. This is part of playing, in their opinions. They have the resources, so they don't need my help very often.

 

It's funny though, parents whose children go to a regular school used to ask me all the time for project ideas for their kids. I guess their school studies were too boring for the kids to come up with ideas on their own.

 

I don't look at science experiments as projects, and I do them with the kids. I do not do them for the kids. Science fair projects are a different animal, IMO. They are complex and the kids need help with every step for the first one, at least, in order to do it properly.

 

Now, let me get off my soapbox and answer your questions:

 

My children do written reports for school. I work with them to develop their writing and researching skills. Until lately, the reports were handwritten to give them practice with writing in longhand. Now they are learning to type and they use a word processing program.

 

My children do very few required projects for homeschool, but they have always done plenty of projects on their own. The chicken mummy project was a memorable one that they still talk about and I helped with that because they were only 7 years old.

 

I participate in projects if necessary, to minimize injuries and messiness, depending on the ages of the children.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a younger child than what you're referencing but I'll use the bird poster we recently did as an example.

 

I created a little fact cards for each type of bird order, which took a bit of work for me but after I finished that. I had dd7 cut each of them out and put them in order for the poster with guidance. As we put the poster together we discussed how flightless birds are grouped together, and other common traits between the birds as we followed DK Animal's classification for birds to put together the poster.

 

Some of the items on the poster are actually worksheet activities I was going to have her do and put in her notebook but we brainstormed to figure out what should be on the poster. In the end, it was a wonderful experience for both of us that didn't seem like "school" at all, just shared discovery.

 

Now about what you said...

 

I would consider the time constraints your nieces have. It's not being determined by engaged, involved party- it's being determined by a teacher that oversees 15-20 students. The load of homework and projects are overwhelming b/c they only have so much time to do them within the time constraints of the rest of their lives. Parents have from 4:00 (or 6:00 if working) to 8:00-9:00 daily to get in time with their kids, do homework and projects, chores, outside activities, etc. It IS different from your situation at home, your focus is different than theirs. You can stop a project at any time without repercussion b/c you feel it is too overwhelming, they cannot. They do their best, I'm sure. Yes, they could have higher standards for their kids and not help them as much but to me that is so much better than not investing the time at all. In my limited experience, public school parents are not aware of all that we are. I wasn't before I entered the homeschool world. First, there's no time to think and second, it's the status quo.

 

It is two different lifestyles with two different set of circumstances. There is no reason to "prove" or explain how and why you do the things you choose to do to anyone outside of your dh. This is an area that I choose not to engage in, telling other parents how to raise their children- I know I wouldn't want to be told how to raise mine. I'll answer questions but I tread very lightly when it comes to advice about a situation so different from my own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a good point. I have 2 kids who are hs'd and 2 in a regular school. Our day goes smoothly until the kids come home from school. Then we have so much to do that it is hard to fit it all in -- homework, extracurricular activities at school, projects, chores, dinner, uniform care, showers, etc., in addition to my continuing to work with the hs'd kids. There is always something that the school lets me know about at the last minute, from my point of view, that throws a wrench into the works.

 

It is hard to keep up with everything that other people require from my children who attend school. If all 4 of my kids were in school, I would go crazy. I can do it easily with the hs'd kids because the requirements are mine, I thought them up, I have a written plan, and it all sticks in my mind.

 

For me, it was easier to homeschool all my kids than to have any of them in a regular school, probably because with hsing I have a complete picture of what is going on, instead of being fed it piecemeal.

 

 

I would consider the time constraints your nieces have. It's not being determined by engaged, involved party- it's being determined by a teacher that oversees 15-20 students. The load of homework and projects are overwhelming b/c they only have so much time to do them within the time constraints of the rest of their lives. Parents have from 4:00 (or 6:00 if working) to 8:00-9:00 daily to get in time with their kids, do homework and projects, chores, outside activities, etc. It IS different from your situation at home, your focus is different than theirs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the input from all of you. I especially appreciate the comments regarding parenting/schooling choices and the suggestion to "tread lightly" on judging others school situation. It's easy to look in the window of someone else's life and compare. thanks again

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have 3 nieces that attend public school. My sister-in-law has called on me on various occasions to help with school projects. I'm flattered and I help with ideas as much as I can. These projects vary from a Missouri log cabin to science fair projects to an ABC state book. This last project is to be typed although no formal typing instruction has been taught. When the log cabin projects were turned in, it was common knowledge that most of the parents did ALOT of the work. My sister-in-law does most of the research for my niece and gets the "info" ready for her to piece together these projects. How is this helping the child?

So, my questions for you are:

1. Do you require your "students" to do science/history projects,written reports,posters, or any type of projects for school?

2. If so, how much parent or adult participation is allowed?

3. Do you require your child to type the report or is it to be handwritten?

We do posters, art projects, science experiments, writing assignments(not typed). I enjoy seeing their handwriting as I feel it is a dying art among our youth with text messaging,email,and cell phones. They do typing on the computer but no word processing as of yet.(ages 10 and 12 1/2)

My brother-in-law and sister-in-law never ask about the boys' schoolwork,test scores,etc and from comments about how hard it is for their girls to do homework during the week as well as these projects, I sense they think the boys have it easy being homeschooled. Others in my family would disagree but it stills makes this mama cat want to defend my boys' knowledge and skills. Sorry for such a long email, but I was curious about these homework assignments. I don't ever remember my parents helping me to that degree. I don't do it now for my kids. My kids sometimes get frustrated because I won't help them to the level my sister-in-law will. They see how these kids bring home 100% and know that this was mom and dad and uncle and aunt,etc doing it.

 

I thought the comment on the time needed to get everything done was good, but I think there is another, major item contributing to the problem --- the parents' egos. I remember needing to send cupcakes to my ds's pre-school, but I couldn't let my ds help decorate them because they wouldn't be perfect. I finally pulled myself up short, ridiculing myself about MY need for perfection for preschoolers when what my ds really needed was to help decorate them. Even today, I still try to get ds to tweak his projects and papers to make them just a little bit better.

 

But there are good reasons to have kids do projects -- fine motor control, learning to communicate without words, learning details that might be glossed over if learning was restricted to the written word are among them -- and projects are a blessing to the child with language problems. The problem comes in when a few parents want perfection and then the "Keeping up with the Joneses" factor comes in. No one wants their child to fail or even look like a failure. So everyone starts helping more and more.

 

BTW, My sisters and I claim my mom's master degree because we helped/did a few projects for some of her classes. So I guess the reverse happens, too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When my oldest ds was in K, they were required to do a science project. DS wanted to do one on dinosaurs. We found books and things and I wanted to help ds more with his display, but dh insisted ds do it on his own with my guidance.

 

It wasn't a beautiful thing. But it represented a lot of hard work on his part, and I told him he did a GREAT job! He learned what he wanted to say, and at the presentation he did very well, and was able to answer the questions. I was proud of him!

 

Then came a K'er girl. Her MOM had obviously spent hours making this girls display PERFECT. There's no way a K'er could've done it! Her mom was there, and when the girl was doing her presentation, the mom would interrupt her and add more info. The girl got flustered, so the mom finsihed the presentation! At the actual science fair, this girl won "The Best of Show" for the K classroom! I was VERY frustrated, because that just rewarded the mom for doing her dd's work! And actually, there was only one other boy who did his own work. I made a big blue ribbon for my ds and dh and I told him how proud we were of him working so hard on his project, then took him our for icecream!

 

My other two have only been homeschooled. We do projects together, I help as needed, but don't do everything for them. The older they get, the less "hands-on" stuff I do. I agree about the parents egos---sometimes they don't do the projects or papers how I pictured it in my head. But they have used their creativity and ability to do an assignment, and came up with great results. How can I fault that? What good would it do me to say, "No, not like that, like this!" Of course if there's a specific goal in mind that I want them to learn, I wil guide it in that direction!

 

I just this year started letting my ds14 type his papers. They're getting long enough now, and he's old enough, where we felt that the process of typing experience and writing a longer paper were what he needed. My dd11 still writes out her things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For us it has depended on age . I help the younger they are . I add in my suggestions the older then have gotten . Though I do enjoy working on things together with them. I think my daughters have learned well this way because they are being taught what they can do , and they can apply it and the older they get they can do their own twist to it .

I haven't delt with brick and mortar schools but in Girl Scouts they have a Father Daughter Bake Cake and we've quit doing that because my husband and daughter have always worked on their own and some of these kids come in with professionally done cakes that you KNOW a father didn't do ( there could be a rare dad in there but I doubt it ) . So we quit doing that activity because it made both my husband and daughter feel terrible because their cakes didn't look like that .

 

As for writing . We write by hand . My girls have knowledge of how to type on a computer but its a slow process for them at this time . Plus I see it as this , that's techology and what happens if you need to write something to someone and your electricity is cut off for some reason or another ? You have to write by hand . Its becoming a lost art and I believe that even today in this computer , email , and text messaging world that its important to be able to write it out .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My dd is in first grade. She's six. We do any "school" projects together - she makes plenty of messy, non-school projects independently. ;) But no, she's not at a point where I could just assign her a project and she could do it all on her own - we work on them all together, reading, discussing and learning as we go.

 

When she's old enough to do projects on her own, the question will become, does she want to do them or not? Because I can't imagine assigning her a Missouri log cabin to build if she's completely resistant to it, kwim? How would she learn anything, and what purpose would it serve?

 

I don't know what the right answer here is. I guess I think that projects being assigned should (in public schools) be able to be completed at least mostly by the student, with guidance and assistance by the parents, rather than the other way around. And the projects should be facilitating the learning in some way, right? Or expanding on something they've learned or are learning about? I just don't understand why projects assigned would be require such advanced skill or knowledge - what's the point?

 

:001_smile:

Melissa

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Luna, I wouldn't classify a science fair project as similar to a craft project, like a poster. When you do a science fair project with your child you're teaching them a whole process along with the scientific method. Much more beneficial, in my mind.

 

True...but the same principal applies. Both of my dc spent some time in ps, and usually the projects were cumulative of a unit study.We've had covered wagon projects, State Reports, Create your own penquin, desing your own dinosaur complete with habitat...that kind of thing. We always worked on them together, with me more just guiding than actually doing. I always found it very frustrating when the other kids' projects would come back and it was SOOOOO obvious the parents had done them. It always made the kids who had done their own work feel a little inferior.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope this isn't too far off, but I have to say that this is another reason I chose homeschooling. I haven't actually dealt with public schools either, but I know that there are a lot of projects and demands placed on after-school time as well. That can really crunch a family and make education unpleasant and intrusive. :confused:

 

Anyway... I never wanted to be the parent who did their kids' projects for them. My parents weren't like that either, so as a kid, it was frustrating to come up against the parent-completed projects.

 

Even though my girls are so young, I'm having to make myself allow them to do whatever they can on their own. And I have to fight myself back from correcting, straightening, tweaking, etc. If Becca can cut some pictures out, then she wants to, and I have to accept that, jagged edges and all! :001_smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...