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I've left my thoughts about history curriculum for next year alone for a little while now to allow time for clarity. Good thing I take notes, hehe!

 

Here are my main draws to TOG, some may be pure assumption, and I wonder; if I don't choose TOG for logic stage, will I be able to do just as good a job on my own (a la WTM) or with another curriculum at:

 

  • Socratic discussions - how would/could I come up with questions like that without TOG?
  • Teacher notes - I'd never have all that info. without it. I can't read all the books the kids will be reading all the time, and at times I don't have time to read any of them.
  • Multiple grade levels kept on same topics - I need this. I know I've only got 2 homeschoolers right now, but I would go crazy thinking about lessons for 2 different history eras and their corresponding literature and church history events.
  • Connections - (hisorical connections) how could I point these out or point the kids towards them if I don't already know them?

Maybe I underestimate myself. Maybe I overestimate TOG. There's so much talk about these aspects of it that it has made me wonder if I am capable of replicating the same quality education without it.

 

What do you think, and what has your experience been? If you don't use TOG, do you feel you do adequately (at least, per WTM standards) at these things?

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I forgot you had the "try to stay away from complicated" thread, hehe! I think sometimes we complicate things because we have this idea or insecure impression of what we need to do rather than forming our goals based on our kids. For instance, does your kid like history? Does he give any evidence of being interested in the connections of history yet? Is he the type who notices the connections for himself? Do you already discuss history? See I don't think any two families do things exactly the same, because no two kids are the same. And this whole mystique of socratic discussions, I don't get that either. When I look at TOG's questions for discussion (which I have extensively btw), I see things that are almost identical to the comprehension and application questions in the BJU history. In other words, there are lots of ways to get where you want to be.

 

The way you teach next year will be a step up from the way you teach this year. It's not some abstract thing pulled out from a hat. Look at your dc and then just up the ante on your current style a bit. That's all you have to do. Honest.

 

Are you wanting to go to ancients for next year? TOG has a huge, 3 week sample from year 1, so you can really get a feel for it. It sounds like what you're asking is what your options are for that type of study if you *don't* do TOG. I totally agree that for some of us it would be like pulling rabbits from hats or a conjuring trick to expect that to happen just from outlining a spine and reading a book. I'm tentatively thinking I *won't* go with TOG for this coming year, but I have some BJU texts that have those terms and discussion questions. History is a weak point for me, and like you I need that help. Also consider that you might like online course. Like nothing. You want uncomplicated? Sign your kids up for online history through VP and be done with it. My dd loves, loves, loves the self-paced VP MARR class. You could make your life so easy with this! You get multi-child discounts, making it even more affordable. You really couldn't go wrong. And as your kids get older, you're going to find more online options opening up for you. Now that my dd is rising 7th, I'm realizing how easy it would be to bring Teaching Company courses into our studies. It's not like *I* am going to be the history professor here, lol.

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If you educate yourself on the topic matter ahead of time so you are prepared to draw out Socratic discussions, then sure you can do it without TOG. You can come up with a book list and maps and do the same. If you can make the historical connections over time (which requires a lofty treasury of history knowledge), then sure you can.

 

I have yet to see a text that pulls out the connections not only in the tapestry of time, but also in depth in a singular topic. The year 1 Dialectic questions pale in comparison to other levels (thus the revamp). That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I'm just saying I have yet to see it. Does BJU ask the kinds of questions that require more than one sentence for reply?

 

My thoughts have always led me to TOG for one reason: why reinvent the wheel? TOG gives me everything I'd plan on my own and also educates me in a much more simple fashion than all the hours of putting it together on my own. I appreciate the "all in one" aspect of TOG, if you will. It's a real time saver and avoids the frustration of personal pulling. Couple that with my large family and lack of time...I'm hooked.

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Elizabeth, thanks for your thoughts. It gives me a lot to think about. My immediate responses are in blue below, but this is something I'll likely have to "chew on" more before coming to any sort of decision. I think I really want to do history more like WTM but feel insecure enough in a number of ways regarding it, so I keep hanging on to the idea of using pre-planned curricula. My #1 insecurity is the thought of putting it together myself & pulling it off. I really would have to make clear-cut pre-written plans before the school year (even if just a framework, and it feels daunting just to think about) or we could languish on the same topic for eons. And then, I'd have to be confident enough that those plans are *enough* - not just quantity but quality - to walk away and not keep piling more & more into them. All that requires decision making, which has got to be my ultimate weak point. It's hard to choose just ONE spine per lesson, because then I'm choosing to NOT use all these other great spines. I have to keep in mind some boundaries when planning - there are only so many hours in a day and for how many do I really want to make my kids do history?

 

I forgot you had the "try to stay away from complicated" thread, hehe! I think sometimes we complicate things because we have this idea or insecure impression of what we need to do rather than forming our goals based on our kids. For instance, does your kid like history? Hmm, maybe more than math, which isn't saying much, and as long as I don't drag it out for hours. He (and my youngest who will be tagging along at grammar stage level) prefer "just the facts, ma'am". They like it narrative, story-style, with coloring pages.

 

Does he give any evidence of being interested in the connections of history yet? Is he the type who notices the connections for himself?

Not really. Maybe as he gets older. He likes listening to stories of it.

 

Do you already discuss history? Hmm, not in the mysterious TOG Socratic way, lol. I answer their questions, we look things up, and they hear a lot about politics, war history, & weapon history from Grandpa.

 

See I don't think any two families do things exactly the same, because no two kids are the same. And this whole mystique of socratic discussions, I don't get that either. When I look at TOG's questions for discussion Where are these? Are these right there in the samples? :svengo: They've probably been right under my nose this whole time. (which I have extensively btw), I see things that are almost identical to the comprehension and application questions in the BJU history. In other words, there are lots of ways to get where you want to be. Yep, I'm starting to think there are a lot of ways to slice this cake.

 

The way you teach next year will be a step up from the way you teach this year. It's not some abstract thing pulled out from a hat. Look at your dc and then just up the ante on your current style a bit. That's all you have to do. Honest.

 

Are you wanting to go to ancients for next year? Yes. TOG has a huge, 3 week sample from year 1, so you can really get a feel for it. It sounds like what you're asking is what your options are for that type of study if you *don't* do TOG.

Well, sort of. The bullet points I listed are my "but what about this? how can I do this w/o TOG?" thoughts I always come back to before tossing out the idea of TOG. They're also only based on things I've read around here. I'm curious how good a job I can do at these things without it, and if we'll be missing something by going a different route. The fear of missing something, not small details but a way of doing it and great resources, can be hindering.

 

I totally agree that for some of us it would be like pulling rabbits from hats or a conjuring trick to expect that to happen just from outlining a spine and reading a book. I'm tentatively thinking I *won't* go with TOG for this coming year, but I have some BJU texts that have those terms and discussion questions. History is a weak point for me, and like you I need that help. Also consider that you might like online course. Like nothing. You want uncomplicated? Sign your kids up for online history through VP and be done with it. My dd loves, loves, loves the self-paced VP MARR class. You could make your life so easy with this! You get multi-child discounts, making it even more affordable. You really couldn't go wrong.

I think you & I discussed this before on a VP thread, lol. I had my boys do the VP online samples for a week, and their response was that they didn't like it but at least it was shorter (than when I teach history). Stinkers. I have considered it as a way to keep us on track & something augmentable yet meaty enough to be a stand-alone for days/weeks when extras fall to the wayside. Really, as a base, I want WTM history plus Biblical/church/Christian (missionaries, etc.) history added in to the main thread chronologically. I want to focus on interacting with history and imaginative literature from that era to build skills (outlining, writing, discussing, analyzing, connecting...). And, I want it already planned & written for me. :tongue_smilie: Is that too much to ask?

 

And as your kids get older, you're going to find more online options opening up for you. Now that my dd is rising 7th, I'm realizing how easy it would be to bring Teaching Company courses into our studies. It's not like *I* am going to be the history professor here, lol.

I'd love to be the professor for everything, but my knowledge is where it is and my son will be in 5th next year. It's impossible. I can't stress about that, either.

 

 

Edited by Annabel Lee
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Arctic, I think you already answered your questions. Your kids want short and to the point. They aren't interested in discussing the history, just enjoying. They aren't yet to the point of trying to make connections. (Kids all get there at different ages.) I actually have a thread exactly to this effect (wtm vs. TOG) on the high school board, but I have a dc who DOES like the connections, DOES like hours of history, and DOES want to do more than just read books. And that's not just age. It's actually personality. That's what I was getting at, that beyond age/stage/readiness there's just a personality thing that fits into this. If you do TOG, which is a very fine program, and end up having history take longer, how happy is that going to make them? Sure you could prune it down, but then why go to that expense and hassle? Have you thought about a *gasp* textbook? Some kids DON'T LIKE history. Textbooks can be marvelous for them. Have you looked at MOH? Do you want religious or secular? MOH would fit well the ages of your kids, is concise, fits the listen and color method you're wanting, is a single book, and is easy to integrate literature into.

 

I totally get what you're saying, because I've been thinking the same thing. But you can get the connections, analysis, and discussion with a good textbook (MOH and BJU come to mind), or you can go the extra mile and do TOG. Both ways will get you there. I'm doing the insane option you DON'T want to do, lol. I'm taking the spine my dd likes, mixing it with the discussion questions from the high school BJU book and the writing assignments from an AP course and the mapping from... That's when it's nuts, lol. Believe me I know, and I'm still thunking myself real hard on the head. Don't do that. :) But I think for kids who don't want a lot of history, getting in and out with 20 minutes a day of MOH or a straightforward textbook can be just the thing. The BJU history in the upper levels is FABULOUS. I'm not saying that lightly. I've got the workbooks here, and for the right kid, it could be fabulous. I'd say from the BJU 7 up. So you could do MOH1-3 and then go into the BJU textbook of your choice. Nice clear progression, plenty of skills, easy to add lit, no torture. Perfect for the history hater. Say I, the advocate of all who hate history and just want a reprieve from long lessons and people who think you ought to enjoy it. It is only the humor of God Almighty who thought it right to give a dyslexic history lover who can't learn foreign languages to the mother who loves linguistics and can't wrap her brain around history.

 

No knock against TOG. I've been a hair away from buying it myself the last few weeks. I'm just saying it's ok to give yourself some peace and do something simpler with some kids. Textbooks can be good.

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What timing! Thank you Articmom! I've spent the last two weeks pondering the same questions and feeling :confused::willy_nilly::mellow::ohmy::crying::scared:. I joined TOG forums on Yahoo, read every post I could find,talked with some wonderful hive memebers and am left with the same questions as you. I was checking for new posts before beginning my own and yours popped up expressing the same concerns and questions I have. I am looking at using TOG primarily for history.

I've left my thoughts about history curriculum for next year alone for a little while now to allow time for clarity. Good thing I take notes, hehe!

 

 

Here are my main draws to TOG, some may be pure assumption, and I wonder; if I don't choose TOG for logic stage, will I be able to do just as good a job on my own (a la WTM) or with another curriculum at:

 

  • Socratic discussions - how would/could I come up with questions like that without TOG?

There are books that teach the Socratic methods but we would have to formulate our own questions based on what DC are reading.

 

  • Teacher notes - I'd never have all that info. without it. I can't read all the books the kids will be reading all the time, and at times I don't have time to read any of them.

Much of the background provided comes from The Worldbook Encyclopedia which is available online. We would have to add the biblical perspective and scripture references.

 

  • Multiple grade levels kept on same topics - I need this. I know I've only got 2 homeschoolers right now, but I would go crazy thinking about lessons for 2 different history eras and their corresponding literature and church history events.

I only have one, but have many responsibilities and issues that require my time -- so prep is a consideration.

 

  • Connections - (hisorical connections) how could I point these out or point the kids towards them if I don't already know them?

I spoke with TOG reps to see if I could use the evaluations to ensure DD was making connections but unfortunatley they like the discussion questions are tied to the primary sources for D/R stages not general topics. I have even looked for a book of general questions for the dialectic level without success. Something like AP prep for younger students. I considered using a text as a basis, but . . . do I really have the time to research? :tongue_smilie:So, I am left like you wondering which way to go.

 

 

"Maybe I underestimate myself. Maybe I overestimate TOG. There's so much talk about these aspects of it that it has made me wonder if I am capable of replicating the same quality education without it. "

 

That's the $100,000,000 question!

 

 

What do you think, and what has your experience been? If you don't use TOG, do you feel you do adequately (at least, per WTM standards) at these things?

:lurk5:

 

Again, thanks for your post! Dina

Edited by Dina in Oklahoma
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If you educate yourself on the topic matter ahead of time so you are prepared to draw out Socratic discussions, then sure you can do it without TOG. You can come up with a book list and maps and do the same. If you can make the historical connections over time (which requires a lofty treasury of history knowledge), then sure you can.

That is THE problem!:tongue_smilie:

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Elizabeth, thanks for your thoughts. It gives me a lot to think about. My immediate responses are in blue below, but this is something I'll likely have to "chew on" more before coming to any sort of decision. I think I really want to do history more like WTM but feel insecure enough in a number of ways regarding it, so I keep hanging on to the idea of using pre-planned curricula. My #1 insecurity is the thought of putting it together myself & pulling it off. I really would have to make clear-cut pre-written plans before the school year (even if just a framework, and it feels daunting just to think about) or we could languish on the same topic for eons. And then, I'd have to be confident enough that those plans are *enough* - not just quantity but quality - to walk away and not keep piling more & more into them. All that requires decision making, which has got to be my ultimate weak point. It's hard to choose just ONE spine per lesson, because then I'm choosing to NOT use all these other great spines. I have to keep in mind some boundaries when planning - there are only so many hours in a day and for how many do I really want to make my kids do history?

Artic, this was me before switching to TOG. It took me Forever..(FOREVER) to do all TOG does for me. I save so much time. And while I read about Socratic Discussion, I guess I'm visual...I needed to see it in TOG to really draw out my students. I have also found that since TOG was my teacher training, I can draw out the same kinds of questions in science, which go well beyond the questions asked in their text.

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You'd think I answered my own question, and I think I mostly did, but really I just made more. I have them written down. :D I have to check, to go through TOG (the samples, anyhow, since I don't have it) with a fine-toothed comb until I'm at peace with a decision. You can imagine how my dh loves this process.

 

I'm doing the insane option on grammar-stage level: multiple spines that I read, plus additional adult-level reading for me, tons of gathering & prep time. The presentation the kids see isn't so intense, but by then I've read enough to choose which spine to present the lesson from for that week, and I can add in & paraphrase any info. I've learned from other resources. I like having ALL the resources I like here on my shelves, but I've begun to realize it only furthers the problem in a way. I don't dislike learning/teaching history, but I have trouble choosing to draw a line and call enough "enough", kwim? This has nothing to do with the programs I'm using, they are great, and if I would pick ONE and just follow it's schedule it wouldn't be so inefficient or cumbersome. To get through the rest of this year I'm having to put on the blinders within my own bookshelves and just check the boxes to make it to the end.

 

Anyhoo...

 

A huge drawback for me w/ TOG is that I don't want to use Hakim's books for history. I don't want to discuss why on these boards, it's just how I feel about them. I bought some and read them side-by-side with a number of other spines and that's the feeling I'm left with. Could I really utilize TOG w/o some of their main books? Dina, am I understanding you correctly that the discussion questions & evaluations are book-specific and not topic-specific? Tina, what do you think of this? Someone around here (Heather, I think) subs MOH as a spine for TOG. That's starting to sound complicated & expensive to me. Thoughts?

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Your kids will be 10 and 8. MOH alone, just as is, is PERFECTLY ADEQUATE. You don't need to spend another $200, and you don't need rhetoric-level questions. You can do MOH straight and be fine, honest.

 

And again, while I like TOG a lot, it's NOT the only way to get this level of discussion and questioning. The BJU science we're doing has tons of thought and synthesis, and so does the upper level history. Good curriculum does, even if it does get used in school. ;)

 

TOG does some things particularly well at the rhetoric level, but you're not even close to using that. You could punt on this whole decision, take a simpler route now, and re-examine TOG later.

 

Well have fun sorting it out. My only advice is not to try to make this a long-term decision. It would be one thing if you were in 8th and trying to decide a high school sequence. But to feel like you need to make a long-term decision now just isn't necessary. It's not math. Skipping around a bit is ok. Only look at the ancients of each program you're considering. Print out all the samples for the ancients year of each program. That way you can put them side-by-side and think through this.

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You'd think I answered my own question, and I think I mostly did, but really I just made more. I have them written down. :D I have to check, to go through TOG (the samples, anyhow, since I don't have it) with a fine-toothed comb until I'm at peace with a decision. You can imagine how my dh loves this process.

 

I'm doing the insane option on grammar-stage level: multiple spines that I read, plus additional adult-level reading for me, tons of gathering & prep time. The presentation the kids see isn't so intense, but by then I've read enough to choose which spine to present the lesson from for that week, and I can add in & paraphrase any info. I've learned from other resources. I like having ALL the resources I like here on my shelves, but I've begun to realize it only furthers the problem in a way. I don't dislike learning/teaching history, but I have trouble choosing to draw a line and call enough "enough", kwim? This has nothing to do with the programs I'm using, they are great, and if I would pick ONE and just follow it's schedule it wouldn't be so inefficient or cumbersome. To get through the rest of this year I'm having to put on the blinders within my own bookshelves and just check the boxes to make it to the end. Honestly, you sound Just.Like.Me. When I started TOG, I think my oldest was in 5th grade. Now that he's in 9th, I am looking forward to a return in each area for the others. It will be really nice to know exactly where I am and what I need. This is a reason that while you don't have to think long term, there are advantages. The other advantage is buy now, don't have to buy later, too.

 

Anyhoo...

 

A huge drawback for me w/ TOG is that I don't want to use Hakim's books for history. I don't want to discuss why on these boards, it's just how I feel about them. I bought some and read them side-by-side with a number of other spines and that's the feeling I'm left with. Could I really utilize TOG w/o some of their main books? For UG, no problem. I pick and choose from the history books with no trouble. I even inject arbitrary books from my personal library to save expense. History is history (I get slants and all that), so you can find a spine you enjoy. I utilize a variety of books that include SOTW, CHOW, Hakim, TCoO, American Heritage, etc. It's easy enough to pick it up and allow the reading. Subbing is easy. Simply having the springboard that TOG provides keeps me from wandering too deeply (unnecessarily). I really understand what you mean. I spent soooo long on Ancients and now I regret that my dc will not hit modern history more than 1 time. TOG keeps me in the "just keep swimming" mode. Dina, am I understanding you correctly that the discussion questions & evaluations are book-specific and not topic-specific? Tina, what do you think of this? The D and R are more "book specific" b/c they go in depth more than the Grammar stage books. Even so, there are so many options available as TOG continues w/ book updates. This will give you the option of other books and will provide appropriate questions and worksheets for you. This is a great feature if you dislike a particular book. Someone around here (Heather, I think) subs MOH as a spine for TOG. That's starting to sound complicated & expensive to me. Thoughts?

Heather does and she shares her schedules. I used MOH the first time around as a spine and enjoyed it. Again, TOG served as a great roadmap and kept me on track. I like that I can trust the literature selections and more than anything, I LOVE, love, love the teacher's notes. They save me a ton of time!
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Hello Again Arctic~

 

Dina, am I understanding you correctly that the discussion questions & evaluations are book-specific and not topic-specific? Yes,this is what the reps told me. "I spoke with TOG reps to see if I could use the evaluations to ensure DD was making connections but unfortunately they like the discussion questions are tied to the primary sources for D/R stages not general topics. I have even looked for a book of general questions for the dialectic level without success. Something like AP prep for younger students. I considered using a text as a basis, but . . . do I really have the time to research? So, I am left like you wondering which way to go."

 

 

I am still considering TOG as it appears to be a great program but am still not certain that it is a fit for us. Like you, I am not a fan of Hakim. A friend has offered to let me review her TOG which I look forward to doing. Another consideration for me is that DD likes to read a whole book not just a part of it -- not certain how well that will go over!?!

 

Best wishes,

Dina :001_smile:

 

 

Edited by Dina in Oklahoma
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Tina ~

 

Are these ongoing or being completed during certain time periods?:bigear:

 

THANKS,

 

Dina

 

 

 

Tina, what do you think of this? The D and R are more "book specific" b/c they go in depth more than the Grammar stage books. Even so, there are so many options available as TOG continues w/ book updates. This will give you the option of other books and will provide appropriate questions and worksheets for you. This is a great feature if you dislike a particular book.

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Tina ~

 

Are these ongoing or being completed during certain time periods?:bigear:

 

THANKS,

 

Dina

 

 

 

Tina, what do you think of this? The D and R are more "book specific" b/c they go in depth more than the Grammar stage books. Even so, there are so many options available as TOG continues w/ book updates. This will give you the option of other books and will provide appropriate questions and worksheets for you. This is a great feature if you dislike a particular book.

I believe it is ongoing to the whole of the program (all 4 years), but am not specifically aware of their schedule. Sorry, I can't be of more specific help.

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