'Naughty' children: does it really matter?

[EmmaNZ]

I am confronted on an almost daily basis by examples of other people's naughty children. Today I witnessed a particularly bad episode of a child misbehaving simply to annoy her mum.

 

I am by no means saying my children are perfect, but I do expect a certain level of behaviour from them including general obedience, respectful behaviour to adults, not causing trouble etc etc. In the main I think I do this for my own sanity!! I need children around the house who will not drive me crazy if I spend all day with them, so they need to learn when to behave and when they can let their hair down so to speak.

 

But I have been pondering all day about the benefits for THE CHILD when they 'behave' (or otherwise). Does it really make such a big difference to the child when they get a bit older? Will life be harder in general for the 'naughty' child or the one who was taught to 'behave'?

 

Just putting it out there.......................

[jld]

Kids outgrow a lot of things. My dd was such a difficult girl when she was 3 and 4, but now at 15, she's a joy.

 

I'd really encourage parents to listen to their children, and work with them to come up with solutions to problems that everybody can feel comfortable with. Kids need to know the things they do that make people feel uncomfortable; even adults need to be told sometimes!

[Mama Geek]

There are 2 of us and I am the oldest. My dad was a lot more of a disciplinarian (he made me behave much more than my mom did). My parents divorced when I was 13 and my db was 6. My db has been into drugs & alcohol, has been in jail a time or two, and has had lots of problems including the latest of deciding to marry someone that is complete trash. I have my own problems, but generally stay out of trouble.

 

My mom did the best she could, I love her and respect her for a lot of other things, but she didn't make my db behave and our father wasn't in the picture enough to. I really believe that the lack of that discipline as well as the lack of having our dad be a dad in so many other ways had a lot to do with it.

 

I am thankful every day that my dh is who he is and that he is a great father and husband. Sure he makes mistakes, but so do I.

[maddykate]

I think it is harder for the "naughty" child, because it seems they are constantly at war with something/someone. From my perspective, children who behave badly are generally unhappy little people. I think they long for someone to take charge and enforce the rules with which they must adhere. It is difficult and sometimes generally unpleasant to be the parent of a child who is strong-willed like that, but it is not impossible to make them mind. I am really sick of parents using excuse after excuse on why the child is behaving badly - no nap, hungry, etc. Not to say that my dc are perfect, either. Our fourth was a huge challenge from ages 1-3 and still occassionally tries to push the boundaries, but I made it quite clear that she was not running this ship. I am and she had understand that early on. She is now a very happy and peaceful six year old that understands our rules and is a delight to be around. No one that knows us can ever believe that she was such a difficult toddler. I have been around so many people that allow the child to control everything and it is a nightmare for everyone involved. I am fully aware that there are situations out there where the child truly cannot control him/herself, but I think those situations are not as common as the bad parenting I see. Sometimes I think parents are afraid to step up and be the parent because it will hurt the child's feelings, when really not making them obey is what is hurting them more. Can you imagine the let-down and rude awakening this kid is going to have when real life doesn't bend to his will the way mommy does?

 

Whew, I didn't realize I needed to get that off my chest! Can you tell that we just spent the afternoon at the park where I got to witness a lot of "naughty" children not obeying their parents?

[TheReader]

I think it depends on the type of naughtiness, the personality of the child, etc.

 

If a child learns early on to be a manipulator, to be selfish, to demand his or her own way, and the grown-ups in his life always give that to him -- yes, that is the kind of thing that can stay with a child into adulthood.

 

If a child is mean, or a bully, again, that can stay with him into at least the teen years and maybe into adulthood.

 

If a child is never taught how to properly show anger, or sadness, or other strong emotion, probably he will grow out of that and eventually learn on his own -- after all, not many 25 yr olds fall down on the floor in a tantrum. However, it can morph into punching walls when angry, kicking objects, throwing things, etc. Outbursts of someone with an extreme temper, things that can be scary to witness even if not one of the objects thrown is directed at you. So, it's important when kids are young to teach them coping skills and how to properly show anger, etc. Those lessons will last a lifetime.

 

(caveat: Is everyone who has a strong temper or a short fuse a child who was allowed to tantrum &/or always got his way as a kid? No, probably not. Does every kid who tantrums grow up to be someone with a short fuse? Probably not. These are just examples of what *could* happen or how it *could* play out when the child becomes an adult)

 

I think the lessons are kids learn when we discipline them -- to be respectful of those in authority, to treat other people with respect and consideration, to manage emotions in a healthy way, to consider what everyone wants, not just demand your own way, etc., etc, etc. -- all of this goes a very long way to maturing the child into the kind of adult people like to be around.

 

Is any of it a guarantee? No. A perfectly well mannered child can still grow up to be a jerk as an adult. A perfectly wild, never disciplined kid can still turn out really well as an adult. But I think the majority of the time, the lessons learned at home do last. Not always, but enough of the time that I do think it's beneficial to my kids for me to teach them pleasant behavior.

[....]

But I have been pondering all day about the benefits for THE CHILD when they 'behave' (or otherwise). Does it really make such a big difference to the child when they get a bit older? Will life be harder in general for the 'naughty' child or the one who was taught to 'behave'?

 

Just putting it out there.......................

 

:lol: I actually have a theory about this - mainly because I have extremely stubborn children/family members. I think it's an advantage later in life. I think these headstrong kids are the ones who become the movers and shakers in the world. From what my MIL says about my husband, he was a B.R.A.T. Now, in his 30s, there's one step in between him and a director position at a huge company. He's responsible for millions of dollars in industrial materials and just keeps getting promoted and promoted. He is very stubborn.

 

One of my kids is extremely well-behaved and tries to please everybody. This is wonderful for a 9 yro. However...ahem...it just goes without saying. We've been trying to toughen her up this year. We put her in basketball. :D She's very polite out on the court. :lol:

 

Edited to say: My husband is also a very good husband. :001_wub: But, still very stubborn.

Edited February 23, 2011 by starrbuck12

[MelanieM]

:lol: I actually have a theory about this - mainly because I have extremely stubborn children/family members. I think it's an advantage later in life. I think these headstrong kids are the ones who become the movers and shakers in the world. From what my MIL says about my husband, he was a B.R.A.T. Now, in his 30s, there's one step in between him and a director position at a huge company. He's responsible for millions of dollars in industrial materials and just keeps getting promoted and promoted. He is very stubborn.

 

One of my kids is extremely well-behaved and tries to please everybody. This is wonderful for a 9 yro. However...ahem...it just goes without saying. We've been trying to toughen her up this year. We put her in basketball. :D She's very polite out on the court. :lol:

 

Edited to say: My husband is also a very good husband. :001_wub: But, still very stubborn.

 

Gosh, I could have written this! My husband was apparently a very stubborn child, and my MIL once told me life would have been much better if she'd accepted earlier on that he'd just do it when he wanted to do it. (He was 18 before she finally figured that out. :lol:) Now I have a very stubborn boy who always wants to be in control, and a very sweet girl who likes to please. While I struggle much more with my boy than my girl in these young years, I worry more about what it will mean for her as an adult and feel pretty confident that he'll make his own way just fine! (We often encourage our boy to step back and our girl to step up for herself.)

[angela in ohio]

Most of the truly ill-behaved dc I know (not just kiddos who have difficult stages,) well seem wretchedly unhappy. Young children KNOW that they shouldn't be running the show, deep down inside, I believe, and it makes them miserable to be allowed to do it.

 

I have the example of cousins who are almost exactly the same age as my db and me. They were never made to behave, and they ran the show in their home. One is living in his mother's basement, and the other is in and out of eating disorder clinics. My brother and I, the poor children who were so abused by having to mind our parents :D are married with happy families. When my cousins hit real life, it hit them back, because it didn't obey them the way their parents had. They were unprepared to face disappointment, authority, and reality. My aunt knows now, but it is way too late for them sadly.

 

ETA: I'm not talking about differences in personality. I'm talking more about parenting.

[MelanieM]

You know, I think it's less about the behaviour of the children and more about the response/interaction of the parents. My son might be considered "naughty" by some here, and we most certainly can't really make him do much of anything! But we do actively parent him, and model appropriate behaviour as best we can, and generally try to love him up and help him in the individual ways that he needs. That's far different than non-parenting, even if the results (through behaviour of the child) might sometimes look the same from an outsider's perspective. I think children who are not parented lovingly -- whether they're "naughty" or "nice" -- are going to be at a disadvantage, regardless of personality.

 

Now, all that said, I think every adult gets to wake up every day and make choices for themselves. All that "it's because of the way I was parented" stuff goes the way of "so what?" We all have our stories... but we also have the capability of becoming the people we want to be, regardless of our past experiences.

Edited February 23, 2011 by MelanieM

[Meriwether]

I think there may be two different discussions here. I don't believe there is any "bad" personality trait. Each trait has two sides, like a coin. That stubborn kid who. will. not. do. something, might be the CEO, the martyr, the man who will do anything to save his marriage. Or he might be the guy who quits his job because he won't do part of his job description, won't do something to please his wife just because he won't, etc.

 

I DO think children need character training.

 

In the short term, I think kids who are "naughty" deal with some unhappy isssues. It is hard, sometimes, to enjoy children who are often naughty. Kids know when someone (another child, another adult, their family) doesn't like them.

[kalphs]

I am confronted on an almost daily basis by examples of other people's naughty children. Today I witnessed a particularly bad episode of a child misbehaving simply to annoy her mum.

 

I am by no means saying my children are perfect, but I do expect a certain level of behaviour from them including general obedience, respectful behaviour to adults, not causing trouble etc etc. In the main I think I do this for my own sanity!! I need children around the house who will not drive me crazy if I spend all day with them, so they need to learn when to behave and when they can let their hair down so to speak.

 

But I have been pondering all day about the benefits for THE CHILD when they 'behave' (or otherwise). Does it really make such a big difference to the child when they get a bit older? Will life be harder in general for the 'naughty' child or the one who was taught to 'behave'?

 

Just putting it out there.......................

I had two cousins close to my age when I was growing up who were "naughty children" as you described in your post.

My grandmother mentioned one time "The reason they were naughty was due to "lack of discipline" in the home. If they aren't taught discipline by their parents, then they will not learn it and it will be harder for them as they go through life." (This was at the time when Dr. Spock was advocating no discipline in the home in his best seller "Baby and Childcare.").

She was right.

Both cousins grew into undisciplined adults which created serious consequences not only for themselves, but for their parents in the long run of life.

As a sidenote my grandmother had been home educated with the Charlotte Mason philosophy. She was a big believer in CM's philosophy on child rearing.

:001_smile:

Edited February 23, 2011 by kalphs

[Hwin]

I have a strong willed son who I enjoy very much. No, he is not allowed to be naughty, but the general public wouldn't know it from looking at us. He is VERY difficult to discipline, no matter how much we do it.

 

But he will not back down from what he knows is right, either. :D

[nd293]

But I have been pondering all day about the benefits for THE CHILD when they 'behave' (or otherwise). Does it really make such a big difference to the child when they get a bit older? Will life be harder in general for the 'naughty' child or the one who was taught to 'behave'?

 

It's not quite the question I want answered. Here's the one I find interesting: Does whether or not a child "behaves" have an impact on (or is it indicative of) who they will be as an adult? Will the child who behaves poorly be the neighbour-from-hell in 20 years? In short, I don't care too much how much harder life will be for the "naughty" child, but how much harder they might make it for society (and my children) in the future. When I see a child throwing toys and not being reprimanded, I suspect that destruction of other property is not such a leap of the imagination. When the child stares me down when I say "Please don't throw the toy, it's not yours, and you might break it." I wonder if they're the one throwing a punch at a police-officer down the line.

 

I spend a lot of time pondering this. Does how I parent matter at all? Or are we just who we are, genetically pre-programmed outcomes slightly modified by the very broadest impact of environment?

[Julie in CA]

It's not quite the question I want answered. Here's the one I find interesting: Does whether or not a child "behaves" have an impact on (or is it indicative of) who they will be as an adult? Will the child who behaves poorly be the neighbour-from-hell in 20 years? In short, I don't care too much how much harder life will be for the "naughty" child, but how much harder they might make it for society (and my children) in the future. When I see a child throwing toys and not being reprimanded, I suspect that destruction of other property is not such a leap of the imagination. When the child stares me down when I say "Please don't throw the toy, it's not yours, and you might break it." I wonder if they're the one throwing a punch at a police-officer down the line.

 

I spend a lot of time pondering this. Does how I parent matter at all? Or are we just who we are, genetically pre-programmed outcomes slightly modified by the very broadest impact of environment?

This might (or might not :001_smile:) be relevant.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41253088/ns/technology_and_science-science/from/toolbar

[Mynyel]

I am at an impasse on what I think.

 

My parents (for the most part) raised us all the same. My youngest sister was the "naughty" child. Throwing fits, hitting, biting things like that. She was a relatively good teenager (a bit melodramatic but...) and she is a good adult (but still kept the dramatics) My middle sister (one of the twins) ended up a teen mother (not that this is horrible just using an example) twice by the time she was 18. Her and her twin would sneak out at night. They were not "naughty" children.

As adults all of us are good, well productive adults that are not criminals, druggies, alcoholics or anything of the like. My sister with the kids at a young age has raised them well and her kids are not that way either.

So although you can have "naughty" children I don't think it is always a direct image of what will come.

I really think you need to look at the parents to see what can be rather than what might be based off the kids.

 

Hope this makes sense, dh is talking to me as I type this! :D

[Laurie4b]

I think that there is a false assumption being made here of causality.

 

Is naughtiness caused by lack of discipline?

 

Can lack of discipline (or what looks like that to outsiders) actually be a result of what you are calling a "naughty" child?

 

There are all kinds of invisible disabilities and a parent responding differently to behavior than you would may actually be doing a decent job.

 

I had no clue as to the child's ability to shape a parent's behavior until we had a foster child with RAD. Charming little devil. We had to become like drill sargeants at a boot camp for him to function. It was not our choice of parenting and we hated it, but it was necessary for him to feel safe. I've seen the opposite need too, in which a child is so challenging that a parent has to choose a few things she will focus on and really go to the mat for, and in which she may need to choose when and where to do that. She may not be able to respond in a grocery store. I respect that parenting choice as well.

 

All this is to say that what you are calling a "naughty" child may well have something biological, etc. going on and that may well result in more difficulty as he or she grows older. That doesn't mean there was a bad parent. There might have been inadequate parenting, but it is a hard call to make from the outside--especially based on a scene in the grocery store.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Laurie4b

[Remudamom]

Apparently only if you're a seventh generation lawyer.

[OnTheBrink]

I think it depends on the type of naughtiness, the personality of the child, etc.

 

If a child learns early on to be a manipulator, to be selfish, to demand his or her own way, and the grown-ups in his life always give that to him -- yes, that is the kind of thing that can stay with a child into adulthood.

 

Especially if the parent is a manipulator, selfish, demanding, etc. Children model what they live with.

 

If a child is mean, or a bully, again, that can stay with him into at least the teen years and maybe into adulthood.

 

Combine that trait with the above traits and it makes for one miserable person, for himself and everyone around.

 

If a child is never taught how to properly show anger, or sadness, or other strong emotion, probably he will grow out of that and eventually learn on his own -- after all, not many 25 yr olds fall down on the floor in a tantrum. You have clearly never met my EX. LOL I can remember a fit he threw at age 28 over wanting Kool Aid. True story.

However, it can morph into punching walls when angry, kicking objects, throwing things, etc. Outbursts of someone with an extreme temper, things that can be scary to witness even if not one of the objects thrown is directed at you. So, it's important when kids are young to teach them coping skills and how to properly show anger, etc. Those lessons will last a lifetime.

 

(caveat: Is everyone who has a strong temper or a short fuse a child who was allowed to tantrum &/or always got his way as a kid? No, probably not. Does every kid who tantrums grow up to be someone with a short fuse? Probably not. These are just examples of what *could* happen or how it *could* play out when the child becomes an adult)

 

I think the lessons are kids learn when we discipline them -- to be respectful of those in authority, to treat other people with respect and consideration, to manage emotions in a healthy way, to consider what everyone wants, not just demand your own way, etc., etc, etc. -- all of this goes a very long way to maturing the child into the kind of adult people like to be around.

 

Is any of it a guarantee? No. A perfectly well mannered child can still grow up to be a jerk as an adult. A perfectly wild, never disciplined kid can still turn out really well as an adult. But I think the majority of the time, the lessons learned at home do last. Not always, but enough of the time that I do think it's beneficial to my kids for me to teach them pleasant behavior.

 

:iagree: My added commentary in purple.

[LibraryLover]

I think people tend to worry too much about nothing.

 

Some behaviors are simply outgrown. With toddlers, I offer physical guidance in the form supervision, containment (in arms, sling, backpack, stroller etc) , redirection, modeling, and simple words, "Soft touching, gentle with your sister" etc.

 

I think too much discipline for minor issues sets the child up to think they are bad, and I have seen over the years that those children become more difficult to manage, not less. They already have an idea that they are 'naughty' and act accordingly.

[Joanne]

I need more information and specifics.

 

I am a firm mom with high standards of behavior. However, I am *also* an advocate for kids in terms of developmental realities. I can't tell from your post whether your percpetion of naughty is fair or unfair.

 

I've observed over the years that early discipline/punishment decisions matter less than I thought when my kids were at those stages. In most cases, discipline/punishment is what parents do while waiting for the child to mature out of/grow out of that stage.

 

I've noticed most families are just fine. If you aren't extreme in permissive or extreme in authoritarian, you have found an appropriate balance.

[CLHCO]

.

Edited February 26, 2011 by CLHCO

[Renee in NC]

Things change as they get older. At least that is what I keep telling myself. I have the same expectations as you do for children's behavior. Unfortunately, my current 4yo has not gotten the memo!:lol:

 

ETA: She isn't this way because of "lack of discipline." She is this way because she is herself!!! Acckkk, I can't even be able to describe this child. She is a lot like her (special needs) 9yo brother, but, well, really, really, really intelligent. This makes for a VERY bad combination!!!!

Edited February 23, 2011 by Renee in FL

[Caitilin]

Apparently only if you're a seventh generation lawyer.

 

:001_huh:I'd rather be that than some other things, myself...

[amy g.]

I think I have pretty high standards for behavior, but I don't agree with being harsh or having unrealistic expectations.

 

I want my children to behave, which means I have to spend a whole lot of time and energy helping them. My Dh does the same.

 

My new favorite parenting term is "time in". I have yet to see the discipline problem that time-in does not significantly improve.

 

My oldest has special needs, and there have been times when I thought that meeting her needs would just kill me. I'm still alive, though and our investment in her makes her willing to do anything to avoid disappointing us. She puts huge effort into overcoming her weak areas, because she is motivated, and she believes in her own ability.

 

I have a niece who has very similar problems, but her parents did not really have the resources or motivation to work with her. They left her in the car seat or swing 24 house a day, She was very delayed standing, or even turning over. She had the same speech issues as my oldest, but they didn't want to give up the time to do therapy. I feel so sorry for this child (now 18 years old).

 

I doubt she will ever be able to have a job. Her articulation is so bad that you really can not understand anything that she says. Her behavior is so bad that no one wants to be around her. Even her grandmother said. Don't bring her back here. No one wanted the trouble of cooking for her, or teaching her about nutrition, so she is dangerously overweight. I think the lack of time-in puts her at a huge disadvantage in life.

 

I tend to be excessive in my parenting. My babies are never put down, never have to sleep alone or even cry if I can help it. I buy my older kids too many material things and spoil them too, but I love them enough to "be the bad guy" when it comes to behavior. I want them to be welcome anywhere. They have doors open for them that other young people might not because they are polite and hardworking and respectful and trustworthy and sensitive to other people.

 

So yes, I think the quality of parenting a person receives impacts that child's future, but I see it as a matter of investment rather than discipline.

[Mejane]

Well, there are certainly different degrees of naughty. My kids could be naughty, but they knew the line and what would happen if they crossed it. It only happened once. :glare:

 

I think one can get what they want out of life without having been a child strangers wanted to choke. Most of the truly ill-mannered children I've known grew up to be self-centered, miserable adults. No one did them any favors by enabling their bad behavior.

[Remudamom]

:001_huh:I'd rather be that than some other things, myself...

 

Perhaps lawyers and doctors?

[EmmaNZ]

 

Most of the truly ill-mannered children I've known grew up to be self-centered, miserable adults. No one did them any favors by enabling their bad behavior.

 

Yes - I would like to think that this is the case. But do we just use anecdotal evidence to bolster our confidence with regards to the parenting of our own children? How do we know this is really true?

[arghmatey]

So far I have 31 years of naughty and defiant under my belt.

 

I've enjoyed every moment of it!

[myfunnybunch]

My ds was in a musical recently. The main character started by bemoaning the fact that kids were so naughty and their parents weren't disciplining them properly. A few scenes later, the same children and their cast "parents" were playing the parts of perfect children and parents. It was more due to cast limitations, lol, but another mom and I laughed a little about it. We decided that was a good lesson/reminder for us: Kids are sometimes naughty and sometimes perfect, and usually fall somewhere in between. Parents too.

 

I do believe that children need to learn self-control. Learning to control one's behavior and attitudes is a necessary skill for anyone living in contact with other human beings, and as parents it's our job to guide our children. In that respect, yes, I do believe that correcting behavior is necessary.

 

But I see "naughty" behavior as an opportunity to teach. Parenting is a marathon, not a sprint. It's important to teach our children good manners, but they make mistakes. If our children were perfect, they wouldn't need us! Just because another person's child misbehaves in front of me doesn't mean that the child has not been or will not be corrected or guided, that he or she is allowed to be "naughty", or that the child is doomed to a harder life. It just means the child is being naughty in that moment. And just because another parent doesn't deal with the behavior in the same way I would deal with it....well, I might find the behavior itself annoying, but I try not to second-guess other parents.

 

I had a friend who assumed (wrongly) that because I choose to correct quietly and to the side, or before or after, instead of in front of others, that I don't correct my children at all. It was a difficult friendship for a time because she corrected my children, sometimes loudly over the top of my quiet voice or hand signals. I'm sure you're not doing that, but I'd caution against assuming that a child is not being guided at all just because you don't see it.

 

Cat

[Chelli]

I don't know if this is what you are getting at but I have seen children who are begging to be diciplined when I taught ps. There parents were too busy to really do anything with them. "Go to your room and watch TV, play a video game, etc. If you come out of your room and bother me, then you will be in trouble." These children were my trouble makers in the classroom. It was obvious they were being bad to get attention. So when they got in trouble and their parents were called in for a conference, it was NEVER the child's fault. It was another child's fault, the teacher's fault, the administration's fault, the full moon, anything but making the child take responsibility for their actions.

 

Sometimes the best way to show our children we love them is to teach them standards of behavior and expect them to rise to that standard. Discipline when they need it, teach them when they need it, and love them always. When you discipline a child because they broke a family rule or acted in a way that is not acceptable, what you are telling them is that you love them enough to care about how they act, what they do, who they are growing up to be.

 

Unfortunately most children just feel like someone who is in the way of what mom and dad want to do, so they act like what they feel, "No one cares about me enough to make me act a certain way, so why should I care enough to act that way either. I must not be very important or lovable." I once read that the one form of child abuse that is the most detremental to adulthood is neglect because the child never feels like they are worth anything to anyone. My heart ached for these kids when I taught ps. I just wanted to take them home and show them that they are special, wonderful children. As I followed my trouble makers once they left my eighth grade classroom, they all ended up in jail or drug addicts. Every. single. one.

 

So are children born to be "bad"? No, but some are hardwired to be more strong willed than others, some have physical, emotional, or mental problems that make them a harder child to parent, but ultimately if you are just involved in your child's life, through the discipline and the fun, and do everything in a spirit of love, then I would say that 99% of the time, they will turn out to be just fine.

[Mejane]

Yes - I would like to think that this is the case. But do we just use anecdotal evidence to bolster our confidence with regards to the parenting of our own children? How do we know this is really true?

 

Anecdotal's all I got. ;)

 

Of course, there will always be those for whom such behaviors worked in their favor. Then there are those who still act like they're five and pitching a fit will get them what they want; really, who wants to be around that? I guess I just always preferred people not clear a store or restaurant when my kids and I walked in. As far as having spirit or drive, they're both dancers in a competitive school and they hold their own and are still considered nice and well-behaved, so that's enough "evidence" for me. :001_smile:

[FO4UR]

I think it was quoted on here not long ago...something about every virtue having it's opposite vice..it was a CM quote.

 

Anyway, I think that is true. A parent has the power to mold the child's experience into one that nurtures either pig-headedness or perserverence, timidity or carefulness, self-preserving or self-serving, an ability for sacrificial love or a need for martyrdom, etc...

 

There are times when I simply can't see through the fog of the moment to know what it is I'm nurturing, but it's very easy to see the flaws in other parents. I can smell a toddler meltdown a mile away...:lol:

[Garga]

I remember reading somewhere, "If you wouldn't want/tolerate this sort of bad behavior from an adult, then don't allow it in your children."

 

So, if you would be irritated by an adult interrupting your conversation to scream about having a candy bar, then don't let your kids do it.

 

If you would be irritated by an adult yelling, "I'm NOT going to do it!!!" and stomping away when you asked them for a simple request, then don't allow your kids to do it, etc.

 

I think that that is sensible advice.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Garga

[Garga]

Just because another person's child misbehaves in front of me doesn't mean that the child has not been or will not be corrected or guided, that he or she is allowed to be "naughty", or that the child is doomed to a harder life. It just means the child is being naughty in that moment. And just because another parent doesn't deal with the behavior in the same way I would deal with it....well, I might find the behavior itself annoying, but I try not to second-guess other parents.

 

 

That's what I was thinking when I first read this thread. Kids do misbehave more often when they're hungry or tired. It doesn't mean that they do it every time or that the parent isn't going to address it.

 

Of course, if you see a kid who is always misbehaving and mom is always saying, "Oh, little Billy is just tired..." then that's probably a problem.

[Garga]

 

I had no clue as to the child's ability to shape a parent's behavior until we had a foster child with RAD. Charming little devil. We had to become like drill sargeants at a boot camp for him to function. It was not our choice of parenting and we hated it, but it was necessary for him to feel safe.

 

 

Bingo. For the first six years with my first born, I had to be TOUGH. I hated it. I didn't like being the disciplinarian, but when I was soft spoken and gentle, he didn't respond and was out of control.

 

And now that he's 8, he's a charming child and pretty easy to parent. I feel like all those hard years of being on top of things and insisting that he behave have paid off.

 

(Of course, now my 5 yo, who is normally compliant, is starting to become "naughty", refusing to do ANYTHING I ask him w/o getting angry and stomping around. Sigh.)

Edited February 23, 2011 by Garga

[Murmer]

I think that there is a false assumption being made here of causality.

 

Is naughtiness caused by lack of discipline?

 

Can lack of discipline (or what looks like that to outsiders) actually be a result of what you are calling a "naughty" child?

 

There are all kinds of invisible disabilities and a parent responding differently to behavior than you would may actually be doing a decent job.

 

I had no clue as to the child's ability to shape a parent's behavior until we had a foster child with RAD. Charming little devil. We had to become like drill sargeants at a boot camp for him to function. It was not our choice of parenting and we hated it, but it was necessary for him to feel safe. I've seen the opposite need too, in which a child is so challenging that a parent has to choose a few things she will focus on and really go to the mat for, and in which she may need to choose when and where to do that. She may not be able to respond in a grocery store. I respect that parenting choice as well.

 

All this is to say that what you are calling a "naughty" child may well have something biological, etc. going on and that may well result in more difficulty as he or she grows older. That doesn't mean there was a bad parent. There might have been inadequate parenting, but it is a hard call to make from the outside--especially based on a scene in the grocery store.

 

Thank you, I wanted to say this but I didn't know the best way to put it. My dd could easily be called "naughty" and many times she is but most of the time we are dealing with ADHD/SPD issues. These are invisible to most people and many times they just assume that I am a bad parent. It can be very rough to parent a child with these kinds of invisible disabilities.

[jld]

I think I have pretty high standards for behavior, but I don't agree with being harsh or having unrealistic expectations.

 

I want my children to behave, which means I have to spend a whole lot of time and energy helping them. My Dh does the same.

 

My new favorite parenting term is "time in". I have yet to see the discipline problem that time-in does not significantly improve.

 

My oldest has special needs, and there have been times when I thought that meeting her needs would just kill me. I'm still alive, though and our investment in her makes her willing to do anything to avoid disappointing us. She puts huge effort into overcoming her weak areas, because she is motivated, and she believes in her own ability.

 

I have a niece who has very similar problems, but her parents did not really have the resources or motivation to work with her. They left her in the car seat or swing 24 house a day, She was very delayed standing, or even turning over. She had the same speech issues as my oldest, but they didn't want to give up the time to do therapy. I feel so sorry for this child (now 18 years old).

 

I doubt she will ever be able to have a job. Her articulation is so bad that you really can not understand anything that she says. Her behavior is so bad that no one wants to be around her. Even her grandmother said. Don't bring her back here. No one wanted the trouble of cooking for her, or teaching her about nutrition, so she is dangerously overweight. I think the lack of time-in puts her at a huge disadvantage in life.

 

I tend to be excessive in my parenting. My babies are never put down, never have to sleep alone or even cry if I can help it. I buy my older kids too many material things and spoil them too, but I love them enough to "be the bad guy" when it comes to behavior. I want them to be welcome anywhere. They have doors open for them that other young people might not because they are polite and hardworking and respectful and trustworthy and sensitive to other people.

 

So yes, I think the quality of parenting a person receives impacts that child's future, but I see it as a matter of investment rather than discipline.

 

Great post. Thank you!

[jld]

I think people tend to worry too much about nothing.

 

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Renee in NC]

Thank you, I wanted to say this but I didn't know the best way to put it. My dd could easily be called "naughty" and many times she is but most of the time we are dealing with ADHD/SPD issues. These are invisible to most people and many times they just assume that I am a bad parent. It can be very rough to parent a child with these kinds of invisible disabilities.

 

:iagree: