How important is it that we start doing Latin? (and/or Spanish)

[Jenny in GA]

I was re-reading parts of WTM last night (which I always enjoy) and reading the chapter about Latin in the Grammar stage.

 

My girls are in second and fourth grade, and I have never done Latin with them. I have never done any FL with them, other then casually telling them simple Spanish (ie, they probably know "Gracias" is thank you, etc)

 

I don't know a thing about Latin. Not a thing. And the idea of spending 3-4 hours a week, plus whatever prep time it takes for me to actually learn Latin myself ... well, that sounds pretty overwhelming.

 

But if it's very important, and worth it, then maybe I should. I have been increasing following WTM recommendations, and am glad when I do.

 

So having said all that, my questions are:

 

1) If you do -- or do not have your kids do Latin, what are your thoughts on it? Why or why not? What is your "case" for either Latin or no Latin?

 

2) Should I start both girls now, or just the fourth grader?

 

3) Can I wait another year or two, or would that just make it harder for everybody?

 

4) What about Spanish? For a year now, I've been saying, "I want to start teaching them some Spanish" because I'm familiar with Spanish, like it, and it seems potentially very useful. But I've never been able to fit it in (mainly because I've never found materials that I liked and that didn't break the bank.) So now I also have to worry about doing Latin?? Do most people do two languages at this age? At a later age? Never? If I have to choose one, which one should I start with?

 

5) WTM recommends Prima Latina and The Big Book of Lively Latin. Any thoughts on these, pro or con? Something else you would recommend?

 

(Oh, and if anyone has any suggestions for good materials/curriculum that aren't a fortune for Spanish for a fourth or second grader -- I would love that too, thanks!)

[mom2bee]

I'm a ways off from having kids, but I'm always planning and researching for when I do...My reply is based on my own research, opinions and experience and research with child development, etc.

I don't know a thing about Latin. Not a thing. And the idea of spending 3-4 hours a week, plus whatever prep time it takes for me to actually learn Latin myself ... well, that sounds pretty overwhelming.

 

I have trouble understanding the importance of Latin in the curriculum myself, and I tend to be a little more pragmatic in my way of thinking, so you may need to take my advice with a few grains of salt.

Logic, Vocabulary, grammar, 'mental rigor' etc, all that can be accomplished without books at all. Or with study of ANY language, or through other courses, etc. So, technically there isn't a NEED to study Latin if those are your goals. However, I'm sure that Latin could still add richness or benefit of some sort to the curriculum and I haven't done enough Latin-centric research to make a statement more influenced by knowledge than personal opinion.

 

B)

I'm sure there are multiple curricula out there that can gently teach student independently or teacher and student simultaneously, so not knowing Latin should'nt be TOO hard to over come. So, if you don't want to learn Latin in order to teach it, I'm sure there is a way around it. :)

 

Many of the touted 'benefits' of Latin can be achieved by doing something else, usually something more relevant. (Vocabulary roots, grammar, learning any foriegn language, etc.) However, I think that Latin is considered an easy

All-in-One approach to more advanced Language Arts or something...

 

But if it's very important, and worth it, then maybe I should. I have been increasing following WTM recommendations, and am glad when I do.

 

you could find out the popular reasons for studying Latin, and consider why you would have your girls study it. If they have good grammar, vocabulary, logic skills, etc already, and you're satisfied with the curriculum you're using and you like the balance of your schedule as is, then, well, if it aint broke...

 

Know what I mean?

So having said all that, my questions are:

 

1) If you do -- or do not have your kids do Latin, what are your thoughts on it? Why or why not? What is your "case" for either Latin or no Latin?

 

I'm not %100 sure yet and I have plenty of time to change my mind, but right now, I'm not sure that I plan to have my kids to study Latin. I'm planning to have them raised natively trilingual, (Arabic, Spanish and English) as well as study 4 more languages during the course of their homeschool years (Mandarin, French, ASL, and Esperanto). I'm planning for my kids to do rigorous vocabulary and language study for each of their languages and am devising my own system for each language except for Mandarin and ASL at this point.

 

2) Should I start both girls now, or just the fourth grader?

 

Since your a little uncertain etc, you might want to start the 4th grader officially, of course if the 2nd grader is interested, she can tag along, but I think that you and your 4th grader could probably 'puzzle out' the basics of Latin together using any one of the excellent Latin programs available. Could be a fun project, or it might be something that is shelved for a later date of stricken from the curriculum for your homeschool period. I think doing Latin could 'only help' and not doing Latin CANT HURT.

 

You could talk to your girls and ask them about it. I know when I was little, I was interested in learning Latin 'someday' along with several other modern languages. I still am interested in Latin for myself, but I'm not sure its something I'd prioritize for my homeschool, especially since my kids will be very linguistically busy as it is.

 

 

3) Can I wait another year or two, or would that just make it harder for everybody?

 

You could definitely wait! As a matter of fact, if you had them do it in Highschool, it could be counted as 4 years of Highschool foreign language, which colleges tend to like.

 

It takes 2yrs minimum of HS language to get accepted to many major Universities in my state. Also, state schools require 3 semesters of a Language at the COLLEGE LEVEL in order to get a bachelors. Other state schools will accept students with no Language study, but still require that they take 3 semesters of the same language to graduate.

 

4) What about Spanish? For a year now, I've been saying, "I want to start teaching them some Spanish" because I'm familiar with Spanish, like it, and it seems potentially very useful. But I've never been able to fit it in (mainly because I've never found materials that I liked and that didn't break the bank.) So now I also have to worry about doing Latin?? Do most people do two languages at this age? At a later age? Never? If I have to choose one, which one should I start with?

 

I nice compromise could be to do Spanish until Highschool, and then change to Latin, that way they have a language that they could use and benefit from and if they wanted to continue Spanish as Independant study in HS they could, while Latin is recorded on their transcripts.

 

5) WTM recommends Prima Latina and The Big Book of Lively Latin. Any thoughts on these, pro or con? Something else you would recommend?

No comment. I've only ever heard of them.

 

(Oh, and if anyone has any suggestions for good materials/curriculum that aren't a fortune for Spanish for a fourth or second grader -- I would love that too, thanks!)

 

Ah! Spanish materials! I have a ton, just let me compile a list!

 

Edited February 20, 2011 by mom2bee

[Dmmetler]

If you speak Spanish yourself reasonably fluently, and can get exposure in the community, you can probably skip the video classes and more expensive curricula, and just live Spanish for awhile. We read a lot in Spanish, and so far, that, plus playing on the playground, has really been my primary Spanish instruction. It's worked well enough that when we started Elementary Spanish this year, my DD has yet to hit a lesson that she hasn't already known a majority of the vocabulary in. Most children's DVDs have a Spanish track, too, and if you're in any city with a large Spanish-Speaking population, you can probably get TV shows in Spanish. My DD got a lot of skills from Plazo Sesame, even after she decided she was "too old" for Sesame Street in English.

 

I'll also put in a plug for Elementary Spanish, if you really want a program. Yes, Discovery Education is expensive, but it's also very, very useful for more than just Spanish. And each child could work at their own level (all of the levels pretty much start from scratch, but the activities for older children are more advanced) with the price of one program if you didn't want to combine them.

[ChandlerMom]

I do beleive FL study is invaluable. I didn't fully appreiciate that until I was learning my 2nd FL (3rd total) in college. It really gives you a unique insight into your own language, a different culture, and how your brain works. FL in the early years helps prime the pumps for later study.

 

If you are fluent in spanish, then I'd start with that instead of latin. Latin is a fav because it forms the basis of about half our language, is great for SAT scores, and you don't have to have a fluent tutor to learn it (not a live spoken language). Goals vary -- some want to teach to the point of free reading Cicero (ie., ancient latin writers) and others just as a tool to learn other things. It's also a lot of fun!

 

An easy, cheap, fun way to intro FL would be to try something like SSL. Buy one workbook for about $20, it has a CD of songs and you can download free drawing sheets (108 of them; one for each vocab word). Do a little (even half a lesson) 1-2 times a week. My girls like to listen to the CD (on repeat thru the section their doing) while they color the free vocab sheets (and I clean the kitchen! lol). I quiz the vocab words, read the workbook stories to them and questions...and that's about it. My 7yo wants to get into more depth and study latin more seriously, so I'm getting GSWL and Minimus for her. Just a low stress, low effort way to try out FL study with your kiddos and THEN see where you want to go with it (continue latin, switch to spanish, table it for a few years). :D

 

ETA: FL study isn't all-or-nothing and you can choose where on the spectrum twix "serious study" and "just dabbling" you want to be, or not do it at all. You don't have to commit to 4 hrs/wk for your dcs to get a lot out of it.

Edited February 20, 2011 by ChandlerMom

[mom2bee]

These are all materials I use or have used in the past via purchasing them or borrowing them from the library.

 

The ones with the 1 by them are the two books I'd get FIRST everything else is just gravy/reinforcement, these two books can get you up and talking in a couple of weeks. Spanish for Beginners comes with a CD in the back. Starter Spanish does NOT.

 

Check your library for the Teach Me series, they could be hit or miss, but they are very musical and More Spanish and Even More Spanish are good, even if you find Teach Me to be too basic.

 

I'll update this list again later to include more of my resources later :)

 

 

Teach Me...Spanish, More Spanish and Even More Spanish by Judy Mahoney (http://www.teachmetapes.com)

 

Spanish for Beginners by Angela Wilkes 1

Link to Amazon

 

Play and Learn Spanish by Ana Lomba

Link to Amazon | Google Books Preview

 

 

Hop, Skip and Sing Spanish by Ana Lomba

Google Books Preview and also available through Amazon.com

 

I own these books:

Complete Book of Starter Spanish K-1 and

Starter Spanish Grades 1-3* 1

 

I wouldn't recommend K-1, as it focuses on "Random" Spanish that is cute but irrelevant and impractical; letters, shapes and numbers are about 60-70% of the book, then some vocabulary. It isn't bad, but I wouldn't BUY it.

1-3 is much better, it includes the same info, but more compact and touches on grammar but has ALOT more to offer.

[Mallory]

I don't do Latin (we have dabbled in it off and on, but it hasn't really worked out).

 

We do spanish using Para Chicos y Grandes as our curriculum. But really all the elemenatry programs I have seen have been very similar in scope or sequence. This gets done, maybe weekly.

 

We also do flashcards everyday, have sticky notes up all over our house labeling all kinds of things, practice it during our day, and use it (we volunteer where there are lots of hispanics). I pick different times of the day that we try to speak spanish for instance this month we are speaking spanish during the get ready for bed part of the day, next month might be lunch or chores.

 

I think this book looks great - http://www.amazon.com/Kids-Stuff-Spanish-English/dp/0978915259/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2WD0XBNZA8ST&colid=36D53CBGZAOQB

 

The next thing I am going to do is start copywork and reading in Spanish, and I am looking at teaching a subject in spanish....

[Mom in High Heels]

I think another language is important (we live in Germany and I REALLY wish I'd paid more attention in college when I took it) because you never know when you might use it.

We are doing Latin and Indy (3rd grade) LOVES it. He loves finding words in English that are Latin or Latin based. We started the year off Minimus, but I found it too hard to teach since I knew nothing of Latin. Last month we switched to Lively Latin and we both really enjoy it. For $55 we got a PDF of about 400 pages (Holy Cow), and access to audio and video lessons. We don't do the history stuff (I just don't print that off) because we're not doing ancients this year, but when we cycle back to them, we might use it because it's really good (I've looked through it). I print off what we need in batches of a few weeks at a time. We go over the vocabulary and chants (endings) daily and maybe do a lesson or two a week. We spend a maximum of 30 minutes a day on it, and that's when he does a worksheet (1-2 a week). Usually it's about 10 minutes to go over the vocabulary and chants and that's it. I've learned a ton too. Except for helping him figure out what to do on the worksheets (he's dyslexic and has trouble reading the unfamiliar words), I don' t HAVE to do anything. I could just let him listen to the audio or watch the video lessons and leave it at that, but the lessons are short and I enjoy learning it along with him. If you want to do Latin, 4th grade is good to start and just let your 2nd grader listen in. She might want to do some of the worksheets too, but if not, no big deal. As for prep work, the most I HAVE to do is print off the sheets and click on the links for Indy to watch the lessons. You can click on the link to get an idea of what's offered. BTW, IIRC she recommends this program be spread out over about 2-3 years.

[Laura Corin]

I like to start a living language in early elementary, when children tend to pick up languages with less embarrassment. Mine didn't start Latin until eight or nine, but waiting to middle school for Latin would have been fine.

 

Laura

[Lovedtodeath]

:bigear:

[Alphabetika]

My dd's Latin teacher (Amy Barr at Lukeion.org) believes that the best time to start an ancient lanugage is in the rhetoric stage when your student has the abstract thinking skills to grasp the specific language concepts and the discipline to work as hard as an ancient language requires. (She says it much better than I do, of course, but I think that's the gist of it.) This proved to be true with my dd. She told me after two classes with Lukeion that she had learned more than she had in 1.5 years of LC1 and LC2.

[ocelotmom]

I wanted to do a foreign language at an early age in order to take advantage of the natural language learning window. The fact that the US often doesn't start foreign language instruction until around 12 is a real problem IMO - most kids with native-born parents aren't going to end up anywhere near fluent in any foreign language.

 

We chose to do Latin first largely because Song School Latin sucked me in (and seemed to be one of the best foreign language resources for young kids in general), and partially because it seemed to me that it would facilitate the learning of other Romance languages (of course, it could well be that learning Spanish or French first would similarly facilitate the learning of Latin later).

 

I don't know where we'll go after SSL - we may go on to more formal Latin instruction, or go with English from the Roots Up, which accomplishes many of the WTM reasons for learning Latin for it's applicability to English, and switch to Spanish (which I'd like to become more fluent in myself for work reasons) for foreign language.

 

So basically... I think a study of foreign language at a young age is very helpful, and I think exposure to Latin is helpful, but that this doesn't necessarily mean formal study in Latin is necessary, either at a young age or later.

[G5052]

For various reasons we were spotty on foreign languages in the grammar stage years, but thankfully were heavy on writing and grammar. I am fine teaching languages myself, but we had ongoing family crises and it just didn't really happen consistently.

 

I finally decided to go to an outside class for Latin in the logic stage because we had a local option that was very reasonable that way, and that got us over the hump. I've decided that for us Latin worked better for us in a class when they're a bit older, now they're successfully using Rosetta Stone for Spanish because they know how languages work, and they're doing a third language each on their own with various resources. It was like the floodgates opened.

 

So for us at least, delaying it went just fine, and it happened only when we got in a group.

 

Your mileage may vary...

[Ester Maria]

1) If you do -- or do not have your kids do Latin, what are your thoughts on it? Why or why not? What is your "case" for either Latin or no Latin?

Tradition, transmission of cultural heritage, a more thorough understanding of their native language and culture and its genesis. The ability of diachronic communication with a distinct culture and epoch, approaching it on its own terms as close as possible (that ability transfers to many other things in academic life). Cultural literacy, connection to the "roots" of their culture and land (Italy), establishing a personal dialogue with it and with the overall process of transformation which brought about the cultural context they know. Positioning themselves in relation to it and in relation to the broader world.

2) Should I start both girls now, or just the fourth grader?

In my personal opinion, 4th-6th grade is the ideal starting age, even upper years are not "late" either (most Italian schools start in 8th... though with much more intensity). I don't see the point of sweating early Latin unless you know the language and can tweak it for kids and are just "living" the classical culture so kids naturally come in touch with it at the earlier years. Most kids, I believe, benefit the most from logic stage beginning, rather than grammar stage beginning.

3) Can I wait another year or two, or would that just make it harder for everybody?

It may actually make it easier for everybody, as your children will be more independent, more cognitively independent and able to work their way through more "meaty" Latin programs, rather than shallow/colorful approach favored by the early Latin programs (not that they can do it otherwise at that age, though - but I think the time is just spent so much better on a modern language while young).

4) What about Spanish? For a year now, I've been saying, "I want to start teaching them some Spanish" because I'm familiar with Spanish, like it, and it seems potentially very useful. But I've never been able to fit it in (mainly because I've never found materials that I liked and that didn't break the bank.) So now I also have to worry about doing Latin?? Do most people do two languages at this age? At a later age? Never? If I have to choose one, which one should I start with?

My advice is to start Spanish young, take advantage of the immersion-style learning young children are prone to, and then add Latin in the logic stage if you find Latin to be an important part of education for you.

 

If you have to choose only one, choose Spanish, because if you don't know why you're doing Latin in the first place, it might just get overwhelming due to a lack of concrete motivation and you might not "profit" as much from it as from knowing a useful, big, yet culturally relevant foreign language.

[Dolphin]

We are doing Latin, I tried starting last year (ds in 2nd grade) with Prima Latina and we just never really got going with it. I would not spend the money on Prima Latina, I would wait until next year and get Latina Christian 1. It is designed as an entry point for third grade, and you are just about there. I would get the set with an extra workbook, that way they could both do it together.

 

I do not know any latin, so far it has not been a problem. We got it with the DVD's. We do Latin about 3 days a week. Day 1 ds watches the lesson, day 2 he fills in his workbook, as much as he can. Day 3 he watches the DVD with the workbook and finishes it. Then I just use the teacher guide to correct. For me, there is no prep, and it is a welcome break.

 

Every 5 weeks there is a review. During that time we spend a few weeks reviewing. I figure if he is not 100% comfortable the next lessons will be harder. I print off the extra worksheets on Memoria Press's page, we use the flashcards and then move on. It is one of ds favorite subjects.

 

Memoria Press is nice as they also have a new course that moves on from Latina Christian 1. First form Latin. It looks great, and we plan on using it next year.

 

The Latin is nice as it reinforces the grammar. It helps with spelling and vocabulary. I believe that if we continue with Latin now it will make learning any of the romance languages easier in High School when ds can choose a modern language.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Nicole

[smallsteps]

I am new to the Latin language this year. We're finishing up Latina Christiana I, and myself and the kids really enjoyed this program. Very easy to use without any Latin background. Why Latin? It stretches the brain and makes one analyze foreign words and English words in a critical way, and teaches them to think in an organized systematic way. Latin is great because it's very systematic and logical to memorize the rules and apply them. I know because I've been learning with my children, and it's not easy but great brain exercise! They are surpassing me with their young, supple minds. I may try moving on to Memoria Press First Form next year with both, but I'm wondering if I can keep up with them. The kids really like it. (My daughter may also begin Spanish in our local co-op next year because she would like to communicate with our sponsored child in Colombia.)

 

Looking back at previous posts, I would agree with the person who commented that focusing on English grammar and writing should be emphasized strongly from the beginning. Starting Latin at 4th and 6th grades for my children was just right.

[Kim in SouthGa]

I suggest you read the section about why to study Latin in WTM. I told my 10ds that he would be starting Latin next year, and he wanted to know why in the world he needed to learn Latin. So I read directly from WTM. He told me SWB was a pharaoh and we were her minions. :glare: He runs every time he sees me pull out my dog-eared copy of WTM! Alas, he will not win this battle! There are so many great programs out there with video instruction that you don't need to know it yourself. We have not carried through with Latin as far as I would have liked. My oldest, 15, took two years then went on to Spanish. My 12dd just had her first year, and she is also taking Spanish. She is finishing up Lively Latin and then will start Latin Alive in the fall. My 10ds will do Lively Latin. My 4dd asked to do Latin today-weird! I guess I will be getting Song School Latin soon!

In today's job market, I think knowing a foreign language is huge. The sooner you start, the better chance you have to become fluent. My goal is for my kids to be fluent in at least one other language before they graduate high school.