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Henle Latin question: students lack good sentence structure knowledge


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I would like some advice.

 

I am frustrated by the poor grammar knowledge of 4 of my 9 Henle Latin 1 students. These are 9th graders who can not identify (in English) indirect objects, direct objects, possessives and even subjects. These are average students who have *no* prior Latin study. Although they are working hard, their poor English syntax knowledge seems to be glaringly apparent for the first time.

 

I can not schedule additional time with these students. I have to cover it during 1hr per week Henle co op class OR let them falter the rest of the year.

 

I'm torn between 2 ideas:

1 - Start with a 15min Shurley English lesson each day designed to "re-teach" the easy process so these students can acquire the skills they need. I think the weekly Shurley classification system might *cement* the knowledge for these kids?

 

2 - Just spend 5 min a week reviewing *one* of the sentence parts & give 10min a day extra homework to the students who need this help. I also am thinking that if every week, we go over "subjects" for 5-min, then after a while, picking the subject will be automatic! THen we'll move to the next, say direct objects.

 

I am thinking along the lines of something that is not time-consuming for me. (I am a first-time Latin teacher and spend more than a few hours each week just doing homework ahead of the class, correcting thing and preparing for each class. My children and I did Latin at home for 4-5 years.)

 

I feel badly for my other students (that know this grammar) and I'm not sure how to address this with them?

 

Thanks for any ideas!

Lisaj

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Guest Dulcimeramy

Tell their mothers to teach them English grammar and then bring them back for Latin next year.

 

I know that sounds awful and cruel, but it is my opinion that you shouldn't be frazzled or over-burdened, and the students shouldn't be overwhelmed or confused by trying to learn both at once.

 

This happens in public schools. The teacher has to spend time working on basic skills with students who were passed to the next level without honestly being ready. The capable kids suffer from having to study with children who do not have the skills.

 

It must be OK for classical homeschoolers to have a different standard and a different method. Learn the grammar, then learn the logic. Isn't that what we believe? And isn't that why we succeed?

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I would let them continue with the Latin, but explain to the mothers that they need to work on their grammar as it's making learning Latin difficult. Give them suggestions on what to use with them, and let them know it's urgent as they'll start to fall behind without this basic grammar. If you recommended that they all get the same book, then you could have a ten or fifteen minute session before Latin class testing them on what they should have learned the last week, and assigning the new work to be done that week. That would help to keep them accountable and on schedule.

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I remember learning much of my grammar in French class. While I probably already knew subjects and possessives, I know that I learned direct and indirect objects for the first time in French I.

 

I would try to spend at least some time in class addressing the concepts while also alerting the parents to the fact that their children could use some extra practice at home. The fact that the students are working hard is commendable and indicates that they might be willing to take on this extra requirement.

 

Regards,

Kareni

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I agree with the suggestion from pp's to mention to the mother's about their lack of English grammar knowledge hindering their Latin comprehension. I thought we had been doing grammar overload, but using Henle with my 9th ds and finding it easy----I guess not.

 

Then again, your post is enlightening to me, as we have no co-ops available here. You make me very glad to be homeschooling my kids with no outside 'irritations'! :tongue_smilie:

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I would suggest to each of the children's parents to buy them a copy of "English Grammar for Students of Latin" and work through it with them at home. Here's a sample link, but you can probably find it elsewhere for less money: http://www.oliviahill.com/latin.html

 

ETA: This is a thin, basic paperback book. There's nothing overwhelming about it. Students should not find it intimidating at all.

 

Lisa,

 

I like this idea. Have the students who need the extra help get a workbook like this. You can look through this book and make assignments of what they need to complete & check before coming to class. The description says it includes an answer key, so they should be responsible for doing the extra assignments and checking them. They should only come to you if they don't understand something.

 

While it might help them directly to provide the grammar instruction in class, you would be boring the kids who already know the material and spending precious class time on a subject other than Latin.

 

If you teach the class again, you might make it clear that knowledge of English grammar is a prerequisite and suggest that they work through this workbook the summer before the class if their grammar is weak.

 

Best wishes,

Brenda

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TO be honest with you, I was the one who "pushed" Latin. :-). I thought, "wow, here's a co op that my children and I enjoy" and there's no Latin. What a great way to introduce more kids to Latin! Voila! Magistra Lisa :). I working towards converting them to classical methods ;-).

 

So, I want to help the kids get up to speed *if* I can. I love the moms. I don't see any of them really upping the grammar at home. (And yes, I am okay with that. One of the ladies cares for a baby fulltime while homeschooling her 3 kids. One of the ladies confessed a longstanding grammar problem of her own. Another has two daughters that are incredible dancers who have dance for hours every week.) These are neat kids with neat parents - who don't put the same standard on English grammar and Latin that I do. All great homeschooling families; all with strengths and weaknesses in their own ways!

 

And because I am 48yo, I've learned that it is all good. I *love* my Latin scholars. I have 9 students, the ones who "get" the English grammar - all A students. The ones who struggle with syntax, all get Bs except I have one "C" student. (I grade 25% HW; 25% quizzes; 50% Loyola University tests.)

 

So, even though, they are missing 2-5 questions on each test having to do with sentence parts, they are doing pretty well overall. I am so proud of them!

 

I can't wait to see the book you recommended. If it worked okay, I might be able to assign extra grammar exercises.

 

Based on all your responses, I will ditch the 15min of classtime idea.

 

4Wildberries - We live rurally and go to a very tiny church so I really enjoy the way my children *love* co op. IT is a great co op full of homeschooling moms just "getting it done" every week. I so admire the young moms. I enjoy "sharing life" (only once a week lol) and the mutual caring and sharing we all do!

 

I have a co op class of 9 in Henle; and 12 5th-7th graders in a Canon Press Latin class. And the neat thing, there would be no Latin at this co op without me. I can see that changing as I see at least 2 moms showing an interest!

 

Lisaj, mom to 5

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Tell their mothers to teach them English grammar and then bring them back for Latin next year.

 

I know that sounds awful and cruel, but it is my opinion that you shouldn't be frazzled or over-burdened, and the students shouldn't be overwhelmed or confused by trying to learn both at once.

 

This happens in public schools. The teacher has to spend time working on basic skills with students who were passed to the next level without honestly being ready. The capable kids suffer from having to study with children who do not have the skills.

 

It must be OK for classical homeschoolers to have a different standard and a different method. Learn the grammar, then learn the logic. Isn't that what we believe? And isn't that why we succeed?

 

:iagree:

 

Can someone else teach a grammar class so those students may acquire the necessary skills to be successful?

 

The students/families are going to have to put in the work on their own time.

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I have had the same problem several times when I have taught Latin (or writing!) to junior high and high school homeschool students. Usually a third to half of the class doesn't have a basic knowledge of grammar.

 

I usually cover a part of speech per week, doing a pure English grammar review for 5-10 minutes of class.

 

I also hit the grammar concepts really hard when I am covering the Latin. So, when I review the cases, for example, I always start with reviewing the English grammar concepts related to nouns.

 

I work it into our translations as well, parsing the sentence in English as we start. There's just no way to catch them up in one class or year, but I try to add in that review.

 

Like you, I still find a huge difference between the grades and achievement of the students who knew grammar to begin with, but these things have helped some. I also second the recommendation for English Grammar for Students of Latin. My dc know grammar well, but I am still having oldest use this alongside her Wheelock's this year.

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