Our church is falling apart + my own issue

[Liz CA]

I am not sure if I completely understand the structure of your church. I have been in very small churches. Twice has a pastor resigned (for different reasons than what you described) and in both cases, the church survived because a new pastor stepped up to the plate.

There were no "districts" involved - I am talking about a non-denominational church in both cases.

Is there no chance at all that a new pastor will offer his services?

Your congregation should now be guided by an able pastor through this difficult time and transition instead of abandoned.

 

I can understand your feelings very well. You feel angry and betrayed by a person whom you thought was trustworthy and guided by his God in his words and actions.

I am not sure how criminal his behavior is in the eyes of the law but to take tithe money and gamble it away is "criminal" in a moral sense.

Heather made a good point - had he apologized publicly would you feel different about turning him in. The betrayal would still remain but at least you may have seen some repentance.

 

Even pastors fall short of the glory of God and are sinners. Pray for him. This may turn your anger into compassion.

Keep us updated on what is happening with your church.

 

:grouphug:

[shinyhappypeople]

Oh, and BTW, he is sort of in business for himself -- again, involving finances. His day job is this: He works for a BANK, as a broker for huge, huge loans. :001_huh: I wonder, does his employer know about this situation?

 

Regardless of whether you report this to the police, please make sure his employer is aware of what's going on. They (the bank) deserve to know what's happening. He very well may be stealing from them as well.

[Liz CA]

I think that applies to lawsuits - disagreements between individuals in the church, not situations like this. The pastor broke the law of the land. Thus he needs to be judged by the law of the land.

 

So...if nobody presses charges, will he get away? If an individual calls attention to this by calling the district attorney, can they still subpoena records?

[katemary63]

I am not sure how criminal his behavior is in the eyes of the law but to take tithe money and gamble it away is "criminal" in a moral sense.

:grouphug:

 

Embezzling money from a church and secretly using it for ANY reason other then church business (let alone gambling) is most certainly criminal in the ciminal sense!

Edited February 17, 2011 by katemary63

[Jean in Newcastle]

So...if nobody presses charges, will he get away? If an individual calls attention to this by calling the district attorney, can they still subpoena records?

 

From what I understand, they investigate to see if a crime was committed (by subpoenaing records etc.) and if they determine there was a crime, the prosecuting attorney presses charges.

[Parrothead]

Well, when people feel betrayed, they often want the betrayer punished. That's why a lot of the time people will jump at the option to "sue him!" or "call the cops on him!" or "give him what for!"

 

But, that's not really going to soothe the hurt of the betrayal. It's going to make you feel temporarily vindicated, perhaps you'd even feel a few moments of moral superiority, but that isn't going to make you feel any less betrayed.

 

I believe that what goes around comes around. This man will pay a price. It may even be a more costly price than the courts would give him -- or it may not -- but he will pay, and he will suffer for what he's done.

 

The questions to ask yourself: Am I willing to accept the consequences of being this man's prosecutor? Because if you are the one who blows the whistle on him, that would be what you are doing, not directly, but you will have set the gears in motion. He has already been exposed and is beginning to pay his due to his church. Are you willing to bear the responsibility for having dragged him out into the public light? Is that really what is in your heart?

:iagree:with Audrey on this one. Since there are higher up/chain of command I don't think it is the OPs call to make. While I don't think the pastor should get away with anything I think the OP may unintentionally do more harm to herself.

 

:grouphug: Prayers for you and your family what ever decision you come to.

[texasmama]

:grouphug: I've been missing you here.:grouphug:

 

We went through a similar issue some years back with a church pastor and a fall out and church split and it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It is so disappointing.

 

Your church can lose their non profit status, I would think...and they probably should. I don't know about the rest of the legal stuff...but the part that hurts your heart...well, I think that will just need to be a matter of prayer and time and healing (for you personally). I still feel disillusioned.:grouphug:

Edited February 17, 2011 by texasmama

[texasmama]

Also, when we learned of the situation with our former pastor using church money for personal gain (among other things), I told myself that I didn't give that money to him or even to the church. I gave it to God. He stole from God, not me. (This is not an answer to the legal issues, but it was something which soothed my heart and allowed me to let it go because I didn't want to carry around the feeling of being "stolen from" by the church pastor long-term.)

[elegantlion]

Embezzling money from a church and secretly using it for ANY reason other then church business (let alone gambling) is most certainly criminal in the ciminal sense!

 

:iagree: Since when are pastors exempt from consequences of their actions?

 

There is sowing and reaping, sin has consequences, crimes have consequences. Counsel, restitution on his part, and forgiveness from others should not negate the natural consequences of breaking the law. :confused:

[AuntieM]

I'm pretty sure what you're feeling is called righteous anger.

 

It hurts.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[Sonshine]

Wow -- what a lot of hurt and emotional upheaval. I am so sorry. We had a church issue gone public several years ago and the church has never been the same since to me. And ours was over personality differences, etc, not as serious as what you are describing. My safe we all love one another world was shattered.

 

At another church, the church closed due to lack of attendance. We were very disappointed in the way the denomination handled the matter regarding selling the two properties the church owned and what they did with the monies.

 

I wonder what is going on behind the scenes. If he is still employed at the bank in another few weeks, I would question whether his employer was told. I would hope the denomination isn't trying to preserve a public face for the denomination and for the pastor at the expense of doing the right thing. It may be easier for them to sweep it under the rug, let the church fall apart, get the church property, and avoid the uglier reality of a trial, etc. I would hope there are higher morals and values to be ascribed to those in charge now, but time will tell.

[FaithManor]

I talked with dh and this is the LAW of the land as concerns 501c's. He's gone to legal seminars on this stuff.

 

IF THE IRS FINDS WRONG DOING, THE CHURCH TREASURER GOES TO JAIL!!!!! If the treasurer of this church does not call for an audit through a tax attorney and report this man, he or she can go to jail for this. The IRS can also seek prosecution against the head deacon or elder and the chairman of the church board too. Seriously, there is a church in Orlando that ended up with eight people in jail for more than 72 hours while discrepancies in the books and "whose to blame" was sorted out! This is not about who is ripping apart whose life and who is being vindictive and blah, blah, blah. THIS IS ABOUT PROTECTING THE INNOCENT! Seriously, people. I am very concerned about all of the individuals on this board that are actually advising a member of this church to AID AND ABET a felon! This is a crime. Not reporting a crime, is a crime in this country. Maybe other countries have a more permissive view of the church's role in reporting crime. America takes a dim view and a hard stance on this and the IRS is the least forgiving of all. This is not a crime between two people in which the victim chooses not to prosecute. That is acceptable in our legal code. This is a crime against a large group of people, it is a financial crime that violates IRS standing, it is a crime against a community, and if left unreported, it's a crime against any future individuals and groups he would seek to defraud because he did not suffer the legal consequences of his actions. It is a felony to not report and to fail to cooperate with the investigation.

 

There is NOTHING Godly about aiding and abetting felonious crime.

 

Faith

[Heather in Neverland]

Also, when we learned of the situation with our former pastor using church money for personal gain (among other things), I told myself that I didn't give that money to him or even to the church. I gave it to God. He stole from God, not me. (This is not an answer to the legal issues, but it was something which soothed my heart and allowed me to let it go because I didn't want to carry around the feeling of being "stolen from" by the church pastor long-term.)

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[jplain]

IF THE IRS FINDS WRONG DOING, THE CHURCH TREASURER GOES TO JAIL!!!!! If the treasurer of this church does not call for an audit through a tax attorney and report this man, he or she can go to jail for this. The IRS can also seek prosecution against the head deacon or elder and the chairman of the church board too.

I wonder if these people are also being told not to ask questions.

I hope they've consulted lawyers to determine how best to protect themselves.

[nd293]

Why am I struggling with this so mightily? Why? I could just let it go, let them get on with their lives and counseling and "rehabilitation program." And say nothing to the powers that be, and let the pastor and his family save face, at least that much.

 

Why does this seem like less than right to me? Like more "sweeping it under the rug" -- again? I feel like I'm lying to the world by not letting the community know... Does that make sense?

 

Please don't pummel me too hard, it's been a rough month around here for us all.

 

Perhaps because you know that change is only possible if one acknowledges ones problems, and hiding something isn't doing that.

 

And perhaps because you've seen time after time how organisations (youth organisations, church organisations) who cover up heinous behavior simply allow it to happen somewhere else to someone else. This is obviously different, but it is still behavior that has hurt others.

[lamamaloca]

Audrey, this is incredible! When I was in this situation, I asked myself if I could be resposible for ripping apart the Pastor's family. If I had gone forward with criminal charges I would carried the knowledge of the pain that particular scenario caused his kids.

 

You would not have been responsible for ripping apart his family! His criminal behavior would have been what was responsible, even if you had pursued full justice under the law. This kind of thinking is what allowed my Father-in-law to molest girls FOR YEARS before he finally ended up with a criminal prosecution and jail time.

 

Ripping apart a criminal's family is NEVER the fault of the one reporting a crime and pursuing justice. EVER.

[lamamaloca]

There is NOTHING Godly about aiding and abetting felonious crime.

 

:iagree::iagree:

[gardening momma]

I talked with dh and this is the LAW of the land as concerns 501c's. He's gone to legal seminars on this stuff.

 

IF THE IRS FINDS WRONG DOING, THE CHURCH TREASURER GOES TO JAIL!!!!! If the treasurer of this church does not call for an audit through a tax attorney and report this man, he or she can go to jail for this. The IRS can also seek prosecution against the head deacon or elder and the chairman of the church board too. Seriously, there is a church in Orlando that ended up with eight people in jail for more than 72 hours while discrepancies in the books and "whose to blame" was sorted out! This is not about who is ripping apart whose life and who is being vindictive and blah, blah, blah. THIS IS ABOUT PROTECTING THE INNOCENT! Seriously, people. I am very concerned about all of the individuals on this board that are actually advising a member of this church to AID AND ABET a felon! This is a crime. Not reporting a crime, is a crime in this country. Maybe other countries have a more permissive view of the church's role in reporting crime. America takes a dim view and a hard stance on this and the IRS is the least forgiving of all. This is not a crime between two people in which the victim chooses not to prosecute. That is acceptable in our legal code. This is a crime against a large group of people, it is a financial crime that violates IRS standing, it is a crime against a community, and if left unreported, it's a crime against any future individuals and groups he would seek to defraud because he did not suffer the legal consequences of his actions. It is a felony to not report and to fail to cooperate with the investigation.

 

There is NOTHING Godly about aiding and abetting felonious crime.

 

Faith

I agree, but I think the OP needs to confirm with her church whether or not any actions are being taken before people here jump to the conclusion that nothing is being done.

[simka2]

You would not have been responsible for ripping apart his family! His criminal behavior would have been what was responsible, even if you had pursued full justice under the law. This kind of thinking is what allowed my Father-in-law to molest girls FOR YEARS before he finally ended up with a criminal prosecution and jail time.

 

Ripping apart a criminal's family is NEVER the fault of the one reporting a crime and pursuing justice. EVER.

 

I know :D. Which is why I found an alternate route to accomplish what I needed to. Often these issues are seen as very black and white, but they are not always that way. But, just because I "know" doesn't mean I would have "felt" that. When we are in these situations we make the best decisions we can at the time, with the resources and support we have, taking into account those we have to protect.

 

Trust me, I was NOT completely silent on this issue!!!

If that had been my ONLY route I would have taken it. ;)

[Swirl]

... and as a result will no longer be serving as pastor of this or any congregation.

 

Yeah, right. :glare:

 

When churches choose to sweep these things under the rug, it's usually just a matter of time before the offender finds another congregation to victimize.

[katemary63]

I talked with dh and this is the LAW of the land as concerns 501c's. He's gone to legal seminars on this stuff.

 

IF THE IRS FINDS WRONG DOING, THE CHURCH TREASURER GOES TO JAIL!!!!! If the treasurer of this church does not call for an audit through a tax attorney and report this man, he or she can go to jail for this. The IRS can also seek prosecution against the head deacon or elder and the chairman of the church board too. Seriously, there is a church in Orlando that ended up with eight people in jail for more than 72 hours while discrepancies in the books and "whose to blame" was sorted out! This is not about who is ripping apart whose life and who is being vindictive and blah, blah, blah. THIS IS ABOUT PROTECTING THE INNOCENT! Seriously, people. I am very concerned about all of the individuals on this board that are actually advising a member of this church to AID AND ABET a felon! This is a crime. Not reporting a crime, is a crime in this country. Maybe other countries have a more permissive view of the church's role in reporting crime. America takes a dim view and a hard stance on this and the IRS is the least forgiving of all. This is not a crime between two people in which the victim chooses not to prosecute. That is acceptable in our legal code. This is a crime against a large group of people, it is a financial crime that violates IRS standing, it is a crime against a community, and if left unreported, it's a crime against any future individuals and groups he would seek to defraud because he did not suffer the legal consequences of his actions. It is a felony to not report and to fail to cooperate with the investigation.

 

There is NOTHING Godly about aiding and abetting felonious crime.

 

Faith

 

THANK YOU.

[katemary63]

you would not have been responsible for ripping apart his family! His criminal behavior would have been what was responsible, even if you had pursued full justice under the law. This kind of thinking is what allowed my father-in-law to molest girls for years before he finally ended up with a criminal prosecution and jail time.

 

Ripping apart a criminal's family is never the fault of the one reporting a crime and pursuing justice. Ever.

 

thank you too.

[Sahamamama]

Thank you for all the perspectives on this situation. I've been processing it all, along with getting on with our lives and schooling.

 

I don't think that my own issue has to do with being vindictive, nor even with healing. There was something "weird" going on at the church for the past 6-8 months, anyway, and although we could never put our finger on it, now that we know this much, a whole lot more makes sense. All the whispering, for one thing. :glare:

 

One thing that does concern me about this situation is that the pastor's extended family knew and covered it up. His wife, his three adult sons, and their wives all knew that this was going on, and they kept it secret. As far as the "Can the children handle it coming out into the public?" question, I've seen how the "children" did handle it, and that was to cover it up.

 

The other aspect of it is this: If the two -- yes, there are only two -- board members had not discovered receipts and decided to take up the inquiry, had not chosen to confront their pastor of 35 YEARS, we would still all (except for the family) be in the dark about it. We would still be tithing, serving, praying for God to move, and listening to a series of sermons on the Fruit of the Spirit. The sons would still be leading the "worship service," teaching children's classes, and saying what a great pastor their dad is. And he would still be putting his hand in the pot, so to speak. All to go to the casinos and gamble it away.

 

In other words, there was no intention on his part -- or on their part -- to put this out into the light, not in any way. Not even to keep the gambling part and the embezzlement part a secret, but to at least step up and say, "You know, the constitution of this church is pretty antiquated, and this is not 1953. Let's update the way we're structured." If he was really serious about STOPPING the theft, he could have at the least removed his ability to write checks on the church's account(s). One of the board members told me last Sunday that for years he and the other person had wanted to change it around, to make the financial component more transparent and above-board, but had been prevented from doing so "because the prevailing structure maintained itself." What he meant was that, since the pastor's family (including the extended family) was something like one-third of the congregation, the two board members alone couldn't act to bring about the change.

 

I have decided to talk to someone in a leadership position in the community, but outside the church (but who would be sympathetic to a church situation like this). As far as I know, he is a conscientious man who will be more knowledgeable than I am about what can and should be done, if anything. Please keep me in your prayers.

[elegantlion]

I have decided to talk to someone in a leadership position in the community, but outside the church (but who would be sympathetic to a church situation like this). As far as I know, he is a conscientious man who will be more knowledgeable than I am about what can and should be done, if anything. Please keep me in your prayers.

 

You will be in my prayers. :grouphug:

[simka2]

Thank you for all the perspectives on this situation. I've been processing it all, along with getting on with our lives and schooling.

 

I don't think that my own issue has to do with being vindictive, nor even with healing. There was something "weird" going on at the church for the past 6-8 months, anyway, and although we could never put our finger on it, now that we know this much, a whole lot more makes sense. All the whispering, for one thing. :glare:

 

One thing that does concern me about this situation is that the pastor's extended family knew and covered it up. His wife, his three adult sons, and their wives all knew that this was going on, and they kept it secret. As far as the "Can the children handle it coming out into the public?" question, I've seen how the "children" did handle it, and that was to cover it up.

Please understand that question was brought up only, because I had no idea what the ages of the kids were.

The other aspect of it is this: If the two -- yes, there are only two -- board members had not discovered receipts and decided to take up the inquiry, had not chosen to confront their pastor of 35 YEARS, we would still all (except for the family) be in the dark about it. We would still be tithing, serving, praying for God to move, and listening to a series of sermons on the Fruit of the Spirit. The sons would still be leading the "worship service," teaching children's classes, and saying what a great pastor their dad is. And he would still be putting his hand in the pot, so to speak. All to go to the casinos and gamble it away.

 

In other words, there was no intention on his part -- or on their part -- to put this out into the light, not in any way. Not even to keep the gambling part and the embezzlement part a secret, but to at least step up and say, "You know, the constitution of this church is pretty antiquated, and this is not 1953. Let's update the way we're structured." If he was really serious about STOPPING the theft, he could have at the least removed his ability to write checks on the church's account(s). One of the board members told me last Sunday that for years he and the other person had wanted to change it around, to make the financial component more transparent and above-board, but had been prevented from doing so "because the prevailing structure maintained itself." What he meant was that, since the pastor's family (including the extended family) was something like one-third of the congregation, the two board members alone couldn't act to bring about the change.

 

I have decided to talk to someone in a leadership position in the community, but outside the church (but who would be sympathetic to a church situation like this). As far as I know, he is a conscientious man who will be more knowledgeable than I am about what can and should be done, if anything. Please keep me in your prayers.

 

Sounds like a great plan!!!! :D

[katemary63]

One thing that does concern me about this situation is that the pastor's extended family knew and covered it up. His wife, his three adult sons, and their wives all knew that this was going on, and they kept it secret.

 

The other aspect of it is this: If the two -- yes, there are only two -- board members had not discovered receipts and decided to take up the inquiry, had not chosen to confront their pastor of 35 YEARS, we would still all (except for the family) be in the dark about it. We would still be tithing, serving, praying for God to move, and listening to a series of sermons on the Fruit of the Spirit. The sons would still be leading the "worship service," teaching children's classes, and saying what a great pastor their dad is. And he would still be putting his hand in the pot, so to speak. All to go to the casinos and gamble it away.

 

In other words, there was no intention on his part -- or on their part -- to put this out into the light, not in any way. Not even to keep the gambling part and the embezzlement part a secret, but to at least step up and say, "You know, the constitution of this church is pretty antiquated, and this is not 1953. Let's update the way we're structured." If he was really serious about STOPPING the theft, he could have at the least removed his ability to write checks on the church's account(s). One of the board members told me last Sunday that for years he and the other person had wanted to change it around, to make the financial component more transparent and above-board, but had been prevented from doing so "because the prevailing structure maintained itself." What he meant was that, since the pastor's family (including the extended family) was something like one-third of the congregation, the two board members alone couldn't act to bring about the change.

 

 

 

All this as well as the fact that he did not face his congregation smack of intentional scam by a family of scammers, not at all of a good pastor who fell to sin. It seems to me this family has been scamming this church for years and finally got caught. Horrible. Sorry.

[Smithie]

I talked with dh and this is the LAW of the land as concerns 501c's. He's gone to legal seminars on this stuff.

 

IF THE IRS FINDS WRONG DOING, THE CHURCH TREASURER GOES TO JAIL!!!!! If the treasurer of this church does not call for an audit through a tax attorney and report this man, he or she can go to jail for this. The IRS can also seek prosecution against the head deacon or elder and the chairman of the church board too. Seriously, there is a church in Orlando that ended up with eight people in jail for more than 72 hours while discrepancies in the books and "whose to blame" was sorted out! This is not about who is ripping apart whose life and who is being vindictive and blah, blah, blah. THIS IS ABOUT PROTECTING THE INNOCENT! Seriously, people. I am very concerned about all of the individuals on this board that are actually advising a member of this church to AID AND ABET a felon! This is a crime. Not reporting a crime, is a crime in this country. Maybe other countries have a more permissive view of the church's role in reporting crime. America takes a dim view and a hard stance on this and the IRS is the least forgiving of all. This is not a crime between two people in which the victim chooses not to prosecute. That is acceptable in our legal code. This is a crime against a large group of people, it is a financial crime that violates IRS standing, it is a crime against a community, and if left unreported, it's a crime against any future individuals and groups he would seek to defraud because he did not suffer the legal consequences of his actions. It is a felony to not report and to fail to cooperate with the investigation.

 

This was the conclusion that my congregation reached.

[susankenny]

That's terribly sad. I'm sorry for everyone involved, including the pastor and his family. I hope it all works out for you & everyone involved.

 

Susan

[Sahamamama]

We informed the proper authorities outside the church structure about the situation. I do feel as though it was the right thing to do, to report this activity to those charged with upholding the law.

[Jean in Newcastle]

We informed the proper authorities outside the church structure about the situation. I do feel as though it was the right thing to do, to report this activity to those charged with upholding the law.

 

:grouphug: I think you did the honorable thing.

[KnitWit]

We informed the proper authorities outside the church structure about the situation. I do feel as though it was the right thing to do, to report this activity to those charged with upholding the law.

 

:grouphug: You did the right thing. Be at peace.

[katemary63]

:grouphug: You did the right thing. Be at peace.

 

:iagree:

[2cents]

Haven't had time to read the other responses so this might be redundant. Glad you reported it to the authorities because he used his position of trust to embezzle funds. This was a business arrangement and he committed a crime. There is IMO no difference because it was committed in a religious atmosphere...it makes it even worse in a way. If he 'moves on' without sanctions and a record, he will do this to another group.

[Heatherwith4]

:grouphug: I think you did the right thing.

[Harriet Vane]

:grouphug: You did the right thing. Be at peace.

 

:iagree:

 

I know it was a hard decision. You'll find yourself second-guessing this in future, and those around you may not always be kind about it. Stand your ground--you absolutely did the right thing.

 

:grouphug:

[unsinkable]

I talked with dh and this is the LAW of the land as concerns 501c's. He's gone to legal seminars on this stuff.

 

IF THE IRS FINDS WRONG DOING, THE CHURCH TREASURER GOES TO JAIL!!!!! If the treasurer of this church does not call for an audit through a tax attorney and report this man, he or she can go to jail for this. The IRS can also seek prosecution against the head deacon or elder and the chairman of the church board too. Seriously, there is a church in Orlando that ended up with eight people in jail for more than 72 hours while discrepancies in the books and "whose to blame" was sorted out! This is not about who is ripping apart whose life and who is being vindictive and blah, blah, blah. THIS IS ABOUT PROTECTING THE INNOCENT! Seriously, people. I am very concerned about all of the individuals on this board that are actually advising a member of this church to AID AND ABET a felon! This is a crime. Not reporting a crime, is a crime in this country. Maybe other countries have a more permissive view of the church's role in reporting crime. America takes a dim view and a hard stance on this and the IRS is the least forgiving of all. This is not a crime between two people in which the victim chooses not to prosecute. That is acceptable in our legal code. This is a crime against a large group of people, it is a financial crime that violates IRS standing, it is a crime against a community, and if left unreported, it's a crime against any future individuals and groups he would seek to defraud because he did not suffer the legal consequences of his actions. It is a felony to not report and to fail to cooperate with the investigation.

 

There is NOTHING Godly about aiding and abetting felonious crime.

 

Faith

 

Sounds like you have this guy tried and convicted.

 

When is the sentencing? ;)

[unsinkable]

We informed the proper authorities outside the church structure about the situation. I do feel as though it was the right thing to do, to report this activity to those charged with upholding the law.

 

:grouphug: Good for you!