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Kim in SouthGa

Algebra II or Geometry after Algebra I...does it really matter?

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I did Alg I, Geom, Alg II many years ago when I was in high school, but I don't know if that sequence is really the best-any thoughts? We use Kinetic Books and the Geometry program is not out yet, so I'm wondering if we could do Algebra II next year (10th), then Geometry (11th), then Precalc or college algebra at cc for 12th. Are there any hard and fast reasons/rules for doing it one way or the other?

Thanks

by the way, he is not a math/science guy and will not be pursuing a degree in those areas. much more lit/history minded

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Geometry will use Algebra 1 skills-- and most Geometry programs have some sort of Algebra 1 review built in.

 

Geometry will NOT use Algebra 2 skills-- so students who work Algebra 1 then Algebra 2 followed by Geometry will have over one year (2 summers plus one school year) to FORGET their Algebra 2.

 

Pre-Calc programs (College Algebra is the first semester of Pre-Calc) DO NOT offer review-- they just jump right on in!

 

This suggestion is also based on personal experience-- I took Algebra 1, Algebra 2 then Geometry-- and I had to drop out of Pre-Calc because I was UNPREPARED-- I went back (on my own) and re-learned Algebra 2 then took Pre-Calc dual enrollment the following year. I was a 'mathy' student too..

 

Since your son is not so mathy-- it would be a HARDER transition to college maths after a Geometry program.

 

Most Algebra 2 programs contain review-- because students are expected to have worked Geometry the previous year.

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I do not have any experience as an educator, but I can provide helpful feedback on this question based on my experience as a student. (While I am waiting for replies to the thread I just posted)

 

Geometry should be taught prior to Algebra II. It is necessary to know how to find the area of a triangle, etc. in Algebra II.

 

FYI both geometry and algebra II should be taken before Chemistry, if that helps with planning.

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The only other thing is the ACT has Geometry on it -- no Algebra II.

 

Actually, the ACT goes up to Trig with a few questions.

 

My oldest two did it each way (one with Alg 2 first and one with Geometry first). It didn't seem to make a difference for them.

 

What I'm finding at school is that kids who do Geometry before Alg 2 often forget a bit of that prior to the college entrance tests IF they take it early as it's not reviewed in Alg 2.

 

Our school district switched to doing Geometry first 3 or 4 years ago and Geometry specific scores have dropped considerably.

 

BUT, I detest the curriculum our school uses (CPM math), so that might be a bit of the problem. We started the new curriculum with the change.

 

AND, we don't have that many high scores anyway. Both of mine scored very high in math, and, as I said, one did it each way due to convenience.

 

So again, I'm not sure it matters. Do be certain a student has and finishes Geometry before the PSAT/SAT/ACT and Alg 2 before the SAT/ACT.

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For most students it would be better to do Algebra 2 the year before having to do Pre-Calculus. My dd is not a math-minded student, so she will be doing the traditional sequence of Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2, then Pre-Calculus.

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For most students it would be better to do Algebra 2 the year before having to do Pre-Calculus.

 

After having used both approaches, I would have to agree with this.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
I do not have any experience as an educator, but I can provide helpful feedback on this question based on my experience as a student. (While I am waiting for replies to the thread I just posted)

 

Geometry should be taught prior to Algebra II. It is necessary to know how to find the area of a triangle, etc. in Algebra II.

 

FYI both geometry and algebra II should be taken before Chemistry, if that helps with planning.

This is not true. All the Chemistry texts I've seen only have Algebra 1 as a prerequisite.

 

I prefer Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Geometry. As long as there is review of Algebra 2 the student will be fine. We will be doing LoF Advanced Algebra for review/extended learning while doing Geometry for that reason.

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Coming from a country where mathematics is not compartmentalized and geometry material is covered concurrently with algebra, I have never understood why it is packaged like this in the US.

So I would like to suggest a different approach: covering geometry and algebra 2 concurrently over the course of two years.

That way, there is a prolonged exposure to both topics, and no chance that either is forgotten while the other is studied.

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When I was in high school, the sequence was

Algebra 1 (full year)

First semester of Algebra 2

First semester of Geometry

Second semester of Geometry

Second semester of Algebra 2

Trig

Pre-calculus

 

This had the advantage that in the school year right before the college exams you would take BOTH algebra and geometry. Also, the thorough and facile use of the various equations of lines was covered in great detail in the first semester of algebra 2, which was quite helpful in geometry.

 

I think that covering linear equations in Algebra 1 is more common and more complete now than it was when I took it. Still, Saxon doesn't spend as much time on it as I would like in Algebra 1--I gave my daughter lots of extra practice on it when we went through that curriculum last year.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
Coming from a country where mathematics is not compartmentalized and geometry material is covered concurrently with algebra, I have never understood why it is packaged like this in the US.

So I would like to suggest a different approach: covering geometry and algebra 2 concurrently over the course of two years.

That way, there is a prolonged exposure to both topics, and no chance that either is forgotten while the other is studied.

I think that is another very viable option. However, I'm not sure how that would look on a transcript or if it would be accepted by colleges.

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I think that is another very viable option. However, I'm not sure how that would look on a transcript or if it would be accepted by colleges.

 

On the transcript you could either

- list 1/2 credit for each of geometry and algebra 2 for both years

- list by subject as one credit for geometry and one credit for algebra 2.

- call the course "algebra 2 with geometry", give one credit each year

I doubt the college cares WHEN you took the course.

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On the transcript you could either

- list 1/2 credit for each of geometry and algebra 2 for both years

- list by subject as one credit for geometry and one credit for algebra 2.

- call the course "algebra 2 with geometry", give one credit each year

I doubt the college cares WHEN you took the course.

 

Many homeschoolers list the subjects only on the transcript, not the years they were taken. You can also call it "integrated math" which covers both subjects anyway.

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Guest Cheryl in SoCal
Many homeschoolers list the subjects only on the transcript, not the years they were taken. You can also call it "integrated math" which covers both subjects anyway.

How would you title it to indicate that it's Geometry and Algebra 2 that are integrated? "Integrated Geometry & Algebra 2?" I know our PSP (private school satellite program likely wouldn't allow that or list the subjects only (we have to follow the same rules as the private school) but I still think it's interesting.

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How would you title it to indicate that it's Geometry and Algebra 2 that are integrated? "Integrated Geometry & Algebra 2?"

 

That, or Integrated Geometry and Advanced Algebra, or just half a credit of each per year.

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Thanks for all the great input. I really like the idea of doing Geometry and Algebra II together over two years. I had planned to list classes by subject on his transcript anyway, so I don't think that would be an issue. The public schools here in GA have gone to integrated math in high school also, so I doubt most colleges would give it a second thought.

About the sequence, Carol in CA, you said Algebra 2 fall semester, then Geometry in Spring and Fall, the Alg. 2 in Spring-would that be too long between the two semesters of Alg. 2? would it be ok just to alternate them? Another thought was to split them for 10th then do both at the same time for 11th to be finished by end of fall and then maybe do college algebra at the cc in the spring of 11th? We would obviously have to lighten his load in other areas to do this-he took a hs level physical science class in 8th, so we could technically skip a year of science. The thorough math year would probably be a huge help for Physics in 12th.

Just thinking out loud :) anyone else done something similar?

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For me it depended on my sons' abilities at the time. There is no hard/fast rule. By the time mine are ready for concurrent classes, they do college algebra, trig, and calculus at our local university to complete their high school transcript.

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I like the idea of doing them both over two years too. If my youngest were homeschooling high school, I'd go that route.

 

My idea would be to alternate them every other day - not over semesters. That would seem to be the best way to keep them both current in the brain. They cover different aspects of math, so I don't think it would be confusing for the majority of students (including my more math challenged youngest). It'll be far worse for him to go a year without either one prior to standardized testing.

 

I'll probably even be "mean" and make him continue geometry after school next year while he's doing Alg 2 at school - just to keep his skills up for those standardized tests (and general knowledge).

 

Thanks for the idea Regentrude!

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Our tentative plan right now is to do Geometry and Alg. II concurrently with Alg. II being done 3x/week and Geometry 2x/week. Geometry will be part of a co-op in which the classes are 1.5 hours rather than the typical 55 minutes or so. I'm hoping this works!

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I was searching for more ways to liven up high school level math when I saw this thread from about 10 months ago. Wondering how it's going for those of you who are having your kids take Geometry concurrently with Algebra II?

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I was searching for more ways to liven up high school level math when I saw this thread from about 10 months ago. Wondering how it's going for those of you who are having your kids take Geometry concurrently with Algebra II?

 

We are doing it this year, but only because the Saxon math sequence is designed this way. Saxon has the geometry integrated into the algebra and advanced mathematics texts. It's going fine for us. I should probably mention that I have a math degree, so this isn't something I struggle to teach.

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saxon math combines alegbra I, geometry, and alegbra II in it's books--alegbra I, alegbra II and first part of the adv. math book. i like it this way too.

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We are doing it this year, but only because the Saxon math sequence is designed this way. Saxon has the geometry integrated into the algebra and advanced mathematics texts. It's going fine for us. I should probably mention that I have a math degree, so this isn't something I struggle to teach.

 

 

i decided to do it this way too instead of going with the new saxon books that has taken the geometry out and made it it's own book. we are in 9th grade doing the alegbra I book. i wish we could have started this last year, but weren't ready. wish we could finish the adv. math book before junior year and seriously start taking the ACT, but we'll be okay.

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saxon math combines alegbra I, geometry, and alegbra II in it's books--alegbra I, alegbra II and first part of the adv. math book. i like it this way too.

 

Would you happen to have the ISBN numbers of the Saxon books you are referring to? I'd love to compare and contrast programs. We have been using Jurgensen and AoPS Geometry and then took a break to work on some fun math for a while. Starting January, I plan to see if he'd like to try either NEM or Saxon for a bit just to mix things up a little and give him different approaches and variety. Thanks so much!

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We are doing it this year, but only because the Saxon math sequence is designed this way. Saxon has the geometry integrated into the algebra and advanced mathematics texts. It's going fine for us. I should probably mention that I have a math degree, so this isn't something I struggle to teach.

 

Thanks Karen! I might engage a tutor if things get out of hand :001_smile:.

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Would you happen to have the ISBN numbers of the Saxon books you are referring to? I'd love to compare and contrast programs. We have been using Jurgensen and AoPS Geometry and then took a break to work on some fun math for a while. Starting January, I plan to see if he'd like to try either NEM or Saxon for a bit just to mix things up a little and give him different approaches and variety. Thanks so much!

 

would be happy to share with you. it's saxon alegbra I an incremental development ISBN # 978-1-56577-134-5

 

not sure of the other ISBN #'s but if you go on the saxon website, you will see the old versions (the ones I use) and the new ones. the new ones (alegbra I and alegbra II) are 4th editions. the geometry book is a first edition and the advanced math book is the same one used with the older versions. also, if you are switching to this for the first time, you can take a placement test to see where your teen is so that you know he will succeed with the program. also, there are several cd tutorials that are available with this program. saxon offers one (old version, not the 4th edition stuff yet). a math teacher, art reed does one that we use and i think is wonderful. you can google him. also video interactive (can't remember exact name) does one too.

if you go on the art reed website, you will get tons of useful info on saxon math. art reed has also published a short book on really good stuff to utilize the course. he also produces a web newsletter. we are using the program as he says to do it and are doing really well.

i also had a really good local math teacher suggest saxon whem i was investigating which series to go with. good luck to you!!

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I was searching for more ways to liven up high school level math when I saw this thread from about 10 months ago. Wondering how it's going for those of you who are having your kids take Geometry concurrently with Algebra II?

 

 

Excellently. The lad is taking it from the public high school (we're in NY so both classes are integrated according to the state syllabus), one period each. His schedule has him taking the two back to back. 2 tests on one day aren't a problem. The Alg II class has a lot of new material; the geo is a lot of repeat of Alg I and middle school. So for a kid who has mastery and a good memory, not a problem. My experience was similar back in the Jurassic, although I took Alg II independent study rather than as a class. I am pleasantly surprised with Alg II; better depth in material than the earlier courses and the compacting is done well.

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I am considering doing this for my rising 10th grader. Any idea how to schedule it? A few days of geo and a few of alg 2?

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Too late now for us, but this is an excellent idea.

 

Coming from a country where mathematics is not compartmentalized and geometry material is covered concurrently with algebra, I have never understood why it is packaged like this in the US.

So I would like to suggest a different approach: covering geometry and algebra 2 concurrently over the course of two years.

That way, there is a prolonged exposure to both topics, and no chance that either is forgotten while the other is studied.

 

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I am considering doing this for my rising 10th grader. Any idea how to schedule it? A few days of geo and a few of alg 2?

 

 

If doing them both in one year I'd do them both daily. If doing them both over two years I'd probably divide it up by chapters.

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I was searching for more ways to liven up high school level math when I saw this thread from about 10 months ago. Wondering how it's going for those of you who are having your kids take Geometry concurrently with Algebra II?

 

 

Dd has finished the first year of two that she alternates algebra 2 with geometry. I gave her the option of alternating by chapter, by week, by whatever. She chose to alternate daily. I was sceptical but she did very well. Algebra comes to her more easily so she sees those days as relief from the more time consuming geometry. I had been concerned that once lessons in both became more difficult as the year wore on that she would bog down. Not so. She works hard and has made real progress in both. She herself admits that she's glad she is alternating because it keeps both fresh. An added benefit is that she applies so much of her algebra in the geometry that it really verifies her mastery of the algebra.

 

Se finished just over half of each text. She will complete the balance of both in 10th grade. We may use the time she will have left toward the end of the year to start precalc, or she may use a review guide to prep for and take the college algebra CLEP, or we may just do some more intensive review/prep for the math section of the SAT. We will play it by ear.

 

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Well if you're waiting to see what's added to a 3yr old thread that hasn't been touched in a year, I'll just be another who says that's something else that I like about Saxon-- integrated Geometry.   :)

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Well if you're waiting to see what's added to a 3yr old thread that hasn't been touched in a year, I'll just be another who says that's something else that I like about Saxon-- integrated Geometry.   :)

 

Just wondering if there are any reports from those who might have taken the advice to run Algebra II and Geometry concurrently.

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Dd just finished both algebra 2 and geometry. She started last year alternating lessons. This worked very well for this particular child. As she puts it, stuff leaks out of her brain when she doesn't use it regularly. Had she done one course at a time, I shudder to think what her retention would have been. However, now that she has worked through these course and has done well at mastering them, her retention of concepts learned last year has been excellent. This may not be the route for every kid, but it was the perfect choice for this one.

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I hadn't even considered doing both Alg 2 and Geometry at the same time.  Is there a curriculum besides Saxon that integrates the two?  Something mastery based?

 

I believe Singapore Math is integrated. I have not used it.

 

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I believe Singapore Math is integrated. I have not used it.

 

 

Yes, Singapore DM is integrated. You would just have to look at the scope and sequence to decide where to jump in. 

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We don't have experience to share yet, but our plan is for our 9th grade dd to study AoPS Geometry and Alg II concurrently starting in the Fall. My husband, a college math prof, decided this because he doesn't want her to take a whole year off of Alg. I think she's going to switch between the two day-to-day.

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I am way too late to this party. DD13 has been following the A Beka course schedule so Alg1, now Alg2, and then geometry planned for next year. I have not even considered whether or not sequence matters. But whatever happened to trigonometry? Is this now incorporated into geometry or is this what pre-calculus is?

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I am way too late to this party. DD13 has been following the A Beka course schedule so Alg1, now Alg2, and then geometry planned for next year. I have not even considered whether or not sequence matters. But whatever happened to trigonometry? Is this now incorporated into geometry or is this what pre-calculus is?

 

Included in precalculus and sometimes in geometry/algebra 2 as well.

 

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I think it depends on your series where they place it.  

Trig is kind of like advanced Geometry, where Calc is more like advanced Algebra (though obviously both are neither!  lol).

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I think it depends on your series where they place it.  

Trig is kind of like advanced Geometry, where Calc is more like advanced Algebra.

Precalc is not calc although it sometimes includes an introduction to calc. It usually includes a review of algebra with special attention to functions, including exponential and logarithmic functions, and then a thorough coverage of trigonometry. Other topics such as matrices, sequences and series, and probability may be included but are less fundamental to success in calculus. Sometimes an introduction to limits is included, but since calculus instructors cannot guarantee prior knowledge of limits these are taught fresh in calculus.

 

Modern trigonometry and calculus require both algebra and geometry to be done properly. Although trigonometry has a lot of geometry in it, there is also a lot of algebraic manipulation of trigonometric identities and solving equations which require algebra skills. Furthermore, the concept of a function is central to trigonometry and misunderstood by many students. Although proofs are not usually done in any but the best calculus classes, analytic geometry is customarily taught (which is one reason the course title is frequently "calculus with analytic geometry"), and the tools from geometry are crucial if a student is to actually understand what calculus is about rather than treating it as a monkey-see monkey-do exercise in algebraic manipulation.

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Ah yes.  

I knew someone would jump in with the specifics, which is why I updated my post before someone commented.  

 

You must have already been working on it though.  ;)

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