Dual credit decisions

[MommyThrice]

Our local community college allows two classes per semester - junior and senior years - for dual enrollment. At first I was excited because that is quite a bit of college credit that can be earned, but now I'm not so sure. They just don't offer that many classes that my son wants or needs. Can you help me think this through?

 

I really don't want him to take history or literature courses there. These classes and the worldview and discussion behind them is the reason we homeschool.

 

He wants to be an attorney, so he isn't taking any more math and science than he needs. However, because it isn't his area of major, maybe it would be good to go ahead and get some of these completed for college? Would college chemistry & physics be too difficult for a non-mathy, non-science high school kid?

 

Foreign language - this must get done and we haven't started on it. I've heard that starting out in community college spanish, with no prior experience, is difficult. But I'm having a hard time justifying an additional spanish class, just to make CC spanish easier. Has anyone had dc jump straight into CC spanish?

 

And, am I correct that one semester of community college is equal to one year of high school work? So he could cram an entire chemistry course into one semester?

 

My son spends alot of time on debate and mock trial and wants to have some time to intern at our state capitol, so I almost think that too much community college could get in the way. I'm just not sure I want to load up the maximum number of courses he could take. Am I wrong?

 

I would appreciate any input and hearing of your experiences.

Tracie

[Lori D.]

I really don't want him to take history or literature courses there. These classes and the worldview and discussion behind them is the reason we homeschool.

 

I agree. These are the kinds of classes most apt to get an instructor with an *extreme* point of view which they feel obligated to inflict on their students. ;)

 

 

 

... am I correct that one semester of community college is equal to one year of high school work?

 

 

Depends on your state. Look over the dual enrollment paperwork carefully. You may also have to call either the CC admin. office, or the State High School Ed. Dept. to find out for sure. (And the high schools and the CC -- or even state universities -- may count the credit differently!!)

 

In our state, the dual enrollment paper clearly says that a 1-semester 3-unit CC course = a 1 semester high school course, regardless if the CC class covers a year's worth of high school class material. :( A friend's son took a 4-unit Spanish class and then went to public school, and the high school counted the CC Spanish class as only 1-semester -- they counted the HOURS in a classroom, not the content (even though the CC class covered 1 year's worth of high school Spanish). So, he only got to count the 4-unit CC Spanish class as 1 semester. A 5-unit science class *might* get counted as more than 1 semester's worth of high school credit...

 

 

 

He wants to be an attorney, so he isn't taking any more math and science than he needs... Would college chemistry & physics be too difficult for a non-mathy, non-science high school kid?

 

I've heard that starting out in community college spanish, with no prior experience, is difficult... Has anyone had dc jump straight into CC spanish?

 

 

It all depends on who the instructor is and what the course content is. When we decided that DS was going to take Spanish at the local CC, I posted on our local homeschool group's website for teachers past homeschooling families had and either liked/disliked and why, and we came up with a fantastic list for a variety of classes from about 8 homeschool grads.

 

Also, you can check out student recommendations and comments about teachers at: Rate My Professor.

 

It is also going to depend on your DS's maturity level, independent-working level and interest in doing CC. Our DS was 18yo and a senior this year, so he definitely had the maturity to do it. I actually had to push him a bit into taking the Spanish at CC, but I wanted him to "dip a toe in the water" of having an instructor other than me, and to get classroom note-taking/homework/studying for tests experience in a very controlled way (just 1 class) before having to "do it for real" full time next year.

 

For our DS, it has worked out great; he had NO prior foreign language experience, but has done great: he has a fantastic teacher; he got an A last semester (highest grade in the class); and he has been very responsible and kept up on all his work (we talk and work together on scheduling homework time into his week alongside homeschool work).

 

On the other hand, another homeschooling friend's son is also in the same Spanish class; her DS is 16yo, a sophomore, and is also taking 2 other classes (math and art) at the CC, and has struggled quite a bit -- however, I think it was perhaps too many classes to start with, plus he has some learning issues which have made the Spanish and Math difficult for him.

 

 

My son spends alot of time on debate and mock trial and wants to have some time to intern at our state capitol, so I almost think that too much community college could get in the way. I'm just not sure I want to load up the maximum number of courses he could take.

 

 

Definitely take that into consideration. DS's Spanish class is 2 hours/class, 2x/week -- PLUS it is 25 min. round trip for ME to drive him there, and another 25 min for me to go get him -- and I do have another DS to work with. (Even if he was commuting by driving himself or taking the bus, that takes quite a bit of driving time out of potential schooling time...) Older DS spends another 3 hours a week or so doing the online and written homework and studying.

 

Last year, both DSs were also doing Youth & Gov't (one evening a week), Youth Group (another evening a week), and younger DS was taking drum lessons (one afternoon a week) -- so our homeschooling time suddenly got very tight and we had to bend our schedule to everyone else's. Right now, we still have the drumming and the Youth Group -- AND both DSs just started the local public high school tennis team (2:30-4:30 practices, M-F; 14 games (and games take 3-4 hours) -- and some away games are 1-2 hour drive away!!), so the next 10 weeks are going to be really, really tight in getting everything done!

 

 

I'd suggest trying out just ONE class, and see how it goes. Perhaps the foreign language or a math course -- something that you either don't WANT to teach yourself, or it would be hard for you to teach at home. Then, if that is working well, and if DS is enjoying doing some schooling outside the home, perhaps in the senior year either try 2 classes, or try the heavier load of a science class. Just my 2 cents worth. :)

 

BEST of luck, whatever you decide! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited February 12, 2011 by Lori D.

[FloridaLisa]

He wants to be an attorney, so he isn't taking any more math and science than he needs. However, because it isn't his area of major, maybe it would be good to go ahead and get some of these completed for college? Would college chemistry & physics be too difficult for a non-mathy, non-science high school kid?

 

Foreign language - this must get done and we haven't started on it. I've heard that starting out in community college spanish, with no prior experience, is difficult. But I'm having a hard time justifying an additional spanish class, just to make CC spanish easier. Has anyone had dc jump straight into CC spanish?

 

I think math and foreign language classes are some of the best for dual enrollment. In fact, that's exactly what my dc have done. Keep in mind that you are not only obtaining college credit, but also obtaining outside grades from an accredited school that may help for college admissions.

 

My oldest two have taken foreign language at the CC and university with no trouble. Both had at least two years of high school Latin but no living language.

 

HTH,

Lisa

[Ellie]

He wants to be an attorney, so he isn't taking any more math and science than he needs. However, because it isn't his area of major, maybe it would be good to go ahead and get some of these completed for college?

I think so.

Would college chemistry & physics be too difficult for a non-mathy, non-science high school kid?

Are you *sure* he has to have chemistry and physics? If so, it couldn't hurt to let him try them. He can drop them without prejudice if he doesn't like them.

And, am I correct that one semester of community college is equal to one year of high school work? So he could cram an entire chemistry course into one semester?

Yes and yes.

 

My son spends alot of time on debate and mock trial and wants to have some time to intern at our state capitol, so I almost think that too much community college could get in the way. I'm just not sure I want to load up the maximum number of courses he could take. Am I wrong?

Your call. It would be worth it to *me* for my dc to make their other activities work around the c.c. classes just so *I* don't have to teach those classes, lol.

[Jann in TX]

Our CC (Austin Community College) has a matriculation agreement with all of the state colleges/universities-- so the credits are guaranteed to transfer (as long as they were true college classes and not developmental ones).

 

My dd has taken American History post Civil War, Government, Spanish 1, Spanish 2, Speech, Comp 1 and is now taking Chemistry and Economics.

 

Her History and Government professors were openly liberal--but they were also balanced and did not push their views on their students. She really enjoyed both classes.

 

DD had taken Spanish 1 in 9th grade when she was in PS-- but she said she really did not learn 'anything'... but she did say the prior exposure helped her when she took Spanish 1 at the CC... she learned more Spanish in those 2 semesters than her PS friends did in 3-4 YEARS. Our CC has its own text that they publish-- and the method seems to work!

 

Comp 1 was a very good class-- dd learned to take advantage of the instructor's offers for help BEFORE the assignment's due date... the instructors offer a free 'edit and suggestion' review before a paper is due... the only students who made A's were the ones that turned their drafts in for revisions.

 

When choosing classes we looked at what dd would need in college AND what she needed for high school graduation.

 

For the most part each of these CC classes count as ONE YEAR of high school credit. Her homework load was HIGHER because of the one-semester class-- so you have to allow more than one hour per subject (homework) per day.

 

Most college Physics classes are calculus based... you might look at a Physics for non-science majors or an 'Intro to Physics' class-- Our CC offers an Intro to Chem class that is equivalent to a good high school course--and some degree programs will give college credit for it too.

[Photo Ninja]

Two of my dc took Spanish at the cc when they were in 10th grade. They had no background in the language. They had to study because of all the vocabulary they needed to memorize, but it was not a problem for them. There is not a need to take Spanish before taking it at the cc. The biggest challenge was that the class was graded on a curve and there were many Hispanics taking the class who were fluent in Spanish. But that may not happen to your dc.

 

All the cc courses my dc took that were at least 3 credits were counted as a full year of high school, and that was accepted by universities. My dc liked that they could finish a class in a subject they didn't like in just a semester.

 

I have one ds who only took cc classes in the fall because he wanted time during winter/spring for speech and debate competitions. This worked well for him.

 

I would have your ds start with only one cc class. Later you can decide if he should take two at a time. Give him a chance to get used to the level of coursework and pace of the class as well as the environment.

 

In our experience:

 

English, history, Psychology and Sociology courses are most likely to have content that you may object to.

 

Math, science, foreign language, art history, music and computer courses tend not to have that objectionable content. Biology classes will have an evolutionary presumption.

 

My dc took Speech (Beginning Public Speaking). It is a course that most students need to take as undergrads. They thought it was a very easy course because they already did speech and debate. It had much easier requirements than competitive speech they were used to. While the Speech class content is fine, and my dc had good experiences in the class, we do know other students who said that the content of speeches given by students in the class was sometimes inappropriate. It depends on the instructor and the students.

 

At our cc, a student must take a placement test before registering for Chemistry. It is a math-heavy test. My dc didn't need Chemistry in college because of their majors, so they didn't take it. They did take Biology, Anatomy and Physiology and some other physical science courses other than Chemistry.

 

But remember that just because your ds CAN take cc courses doesn't mean he NEEDS to take them.

[AngieW in Texas]

My dd jumped right in to Japanese at the cc. She had self-studied with Instant Immersion Japanese, but that's all. She learned a lot in her classes. Each semester counted for a full year of high school Japanese.

 

My dd will have all of the English, math, and science she needs for her college degree finished when she finishes high school. She is taking the physics and chemistry courses for nonscience majors.

 

Altogether she's had (or is currently taking)

1 semester Intro to Psychology (0.5 high school credit)

3 semesters Japanese (3 high school credits)

2 semesters Drawing (1 high school credit - my local ISD offers a full credit for each semester, but I didn't think it was worth that much credit)

1 semester Digital Imaging (1 high school credit)

2 semesters English (1 high school credit)

2 semesters Physics for nonscience majors (2 high school credits)

1 semester Chemistry for nonscience majors (1 high school credit)

 

Our cc allows you to request permission to take additional courses once you have completed 12 credit hours with at least a 3.5 if you have high enough test scores. My dd took 4 classes last semester and is taking another 4 this semester.

 

ETA:

Mommythrice, my dd's cc courses were also at ACC. I didn't realize Jann in TX was that close to me either. You might want to join the email loop aahtoacc on yahoogroups. It isn't a very active loop, but it is all hsers who either have kids at ACC now or have had their kids there in the past.

 

and somehow I forgot to add in my dd's math courses at ACC:

1 semester Elementary Statistics (0.5 high school credit)

1 semester Trig (0.5 high school credit)

Edited February 12, 2011 by AngieW in Texas

[MommyThrice]

Most college Physics classes are calculus based... you might look at a Physics for non-science majors or an 'Intro to Physics' class-- Our CC offers an Intro to Chem class that is equivalent to a good high school course--and some degree programs will give college credit for it too.

 

I did not realize you were so close to me, we are also in ACC.

I had not thought about "Intro to" science classes, that may be a great option. It seems that most Texas schools are now wanting FOUR lab sciences, which is really irritating my liberal-arts minded son. He would like to get the last two knocked out more quickly at CC instead of spending another two whole years at home or other outside science classes.

 

He knows what he would like to do, and really wants to go out-of-state to schools that don't require all the science, but I hate to skip the science now in case he does end up at a Texas school.

 

Thanks for the great suggestions from all of you. It looks like most of you are not loading up on the maximum allowable hours, but are picking and choosing.

[K-FL]

I'm will Ellie (as usual!) on all points.

 

If he's going toward law, don't make the poor child take those dreaded math & science classes more than once! If he's going for a humanities degree, he probably will only need 2 maths--usually Statistics & College Alg (or Math for Liberal Arts.) If he goes toward business, the reqs here are Statistics & Calculus for Business majors.

 

I would check the U or cc for the pre-reqs and focus on those.

[Sunshine State Sue]

I don't have any experience yet with CC, but have been doing a lot of investigating for next year.

 

Here in FL, our hs students must be evaluated once a year. My evaluator always tells me that ds's first class in CC should be "The College Experience" where the students are taught: study and test-taking strategies; effective interpersonal skills; time management techniques; creative and critical thinking skills; college services and resources; educational policies, procedures, regulations and terminology; and library resources, research strategies, etc. She also tells me to send him with a friend. :001_smile:

 

Most veteran hs'ers here advise taking taking only 1 class the first semester. We can also start in 10th grade, so that may make a difference.

 

At our CC, there are many options for science besides the typical Biology, Chemistry, Physics. There is Environmental Science, Meteorology, Astronomy, Oceanography, Earth Science, Marine Science, probably a few more. Some have labs and some don't. The ones with lab count for a year of high school credit. The ones without lab count for a a semester of high school credit. We also have the "Intro" classes for non-science majors. So, make sure to look at all the options. Perhaps there would be something else your son is more interested in.

 

I'd like ds to try Spanish at CC, but the reports from the students themselves are that it's tough without prior exposure (at least with the one teacher he would have to use). And, he's not an overly motivated student. Sigh.

[MommyThrice]

I'm will Ellie (as usual!) on all points.

 

If he's going toward law, don't make the poor child take those dreaded math & science classes more than once! If he's going for a humanities degree, he probably will only need 2 maths--usually Statistics & College Alg (or Math for Liberal Arts.) If he goes toward business, the reqs here are Statistics & Calculus for Business majors.

 

I would check the U or cc for the pre-reqs and focus on those.

 

So, are you saying would WOULD do those at dual credit? That might mean more difficult than home taught, but one time and he's done. Right?

[Miss Marple]

I think math and foreign language classes are some of the best for dual enrollment. In fact, that's exactly what my dc have done. Keep in mind that you are not only obtaining college credit, but also obtaining outside grades from an accredited school that may help for college admissions.

 

My oldest two have taken foreign language at the CC and university with no trouble. Both had at least two years of high school Latin but no living language.

 

HTH,

Lisa

 

:iagree:My 2 older sons took Spanish 1 and 2 at our local university branch. It was the best way to go for us because I just can't teach foreign languages. They really had no prior experience (beyond a bit of Rosetta Stone in elementary) and they did fine. The oldest, in fact, is minoring in Spanish.

 

Another course that has been beneficial is Freshman Composition. My oldest took it online (the only way I would do it around here) and it was a very good experience. However, this is the course that seems to attract teachers who want to completely wash your student's mind of any prior moral thinking and substitute their own brand of morality. But our online course was fantastic. The literature selections were of the "classic" variety rather than the muck they offer in the brick and mortar course.

 

We also utilize concurrent enrollment for higher maths and have had great success there as well. Like you, I was hesitant to use it for history. But ds#2 took American History 1860's to present and proclaims it his favorite course! The teacher was a lively older lady who presented with a very conservative POV. He wants to take another history from her :D You can find excellent teachers who aren't trying to indoctrinate your kids, but you do need to do some research first.

[K-FL]

So, are you saying would WOULD do those at dual credit? That might mean more difficult than home taught, but one time and he's done. Right?

 

Yes, do the DE so he only does them once. I've heard of way too many (usually males) who drop out because they just can't face having to take XX class AGAIN!

 

As to the languages, dd#1 had 1 yr hs Spanish before CC & dd#2 had none. It didn't seem to make any difference. The local prof. is very used to having students both who are native speakers and who have never had Spanish. I'm sure that is not unusual other places too. He graded as to their ability and effort, not a generic curve that would overly favor the natives.

[Cathy in TX]

My dd is also taking classes at ACC and loves them. She opted to take US history so that she wouldn't have to take it in high school and again in college. She will also take government and economics there, as well as a math class and a science class her senior year. She will not be going to school out of state, and thus her classes will transfer. But her cousin, who is going out of state, chose the AP route instead because her college of choice would not give her credit for DE. This might be something you want to check out.

 

The first semester my dd took English comp and the first US history. The English comp was very easy, but did include a ten-page research paper, which made me happy. The US history really helped with her timed essays. And since we had studied history in-depth, she spent the first few weeks commenting on the slant of her textbook and beliefs of her professor, who is more liberal than we. For me, this was the perfect time for her to hear others' views and see what she thought about them. She's going to be facing them in college soon anyway. I wanted her to start that journey in small doses while she is still living at home. She really liked this professor and is taking his second US history class right now.

 

Some other classes her homeschool friends have taken at ACC include speech, human geography, spanish, p.e., and calculus. These have seemed to have been good classes across the board. English Comp II is the only class for which other parents have overwhelmingly given bad reviews due to the content of the stories that are read.

 

Cathy