Math--should I slow my DS down?

[catz]

I don't Like to slow them down. My daughter raced through Singapore from 2a through 6b in her second grade year and the summer after. We did just the workbooks. CWP was out of print so we didn't do those either. Since she finished, we have been slogging through CWP6, and we have done the first three books of Keys to Algebra. After looking at and trying a few different options, we ended up with New Math Counts from Singapore Math. Our problem was not that she couldn't handle the math. Our problem was that she couldn't handle the textbooks. What would have been perfect is a workbook based algebra program, but I could not find one. New Math Counts is the secondary math program for the "normal" stream in Singapore (NEM is for the accelerated stream). It's five books instead of four, and everything is in the book - self teaching, exercises, answers, tests. It's working great for her. Our (current!) plan is to go through all five books, hopefully in 2-3 years, and then start with the AoPS curriculum in 5th or 6th grade. In the meantime, we are also focusing on problem solving. After we finish with CWP6, we will move on to the problem solving books put out by AOPS, starting with the Math Olympiad ones. As PPs have said, I don't see running out of math as an issue, although, yes, when you map it out, it looks scary!! My biggest priority is to get her comfortable with tackling difficult problems. The only way to do that is to do lots of problems! And slowly but surely, she is improving!

So, that is a long way of saying, that it may look like your young math student has hit the wall, but in fact the curriculum may just be linguistically too difficult for him/her. Its worth looking around until you find something that works, without sacrificing the level of rigor you are looking for.

Hope that helps!

 

I definitely would love a rigorous higher level math curriculum in a workbook format. That was definitely part of our slow upstart with Singapore NEM for us was dealing with a real text and copying problems accurately and neatly! Concepts are never an issue with my particular kid. The writing/neatness thing definitely is, but it didn't feel like that should hold him back. He's a kid that has been thinking algebraically for as long as I can remember. He did 3 grades of SM in 2nd grade and 2 levels in 3rd grade, with some side trips (CWP, IP) taken along the way. Much of it was not super challenging for him either. He didn't start homeschooling until 2nd grade.

[StephanieZ]

IMHO & IME, there is no need to slow him down so long as he's thriving. Feel free to throw in some interesting rabbit trails (graphing, geometry, word problems) from whatever resources you have on hand. Be certain the facts are 100% memorized. . . and just enjoy the ride.

[Beth in SW WA]

IMHO & IME, there is no need to slow him down so long as he's thriving. Feel free to throw in some interesting rabbit trails (graphing, geometry, word problems) from whatever resources you have on hand. Be certain the facts are 100% memorized. . . and just enjoy the ride.

 

:iagree: and respectfully disagree on one of your points.

 

The facts don't need to be memorized to move ahead. Dd7 is doing Singapore 4A but still sings her skip-counting songs to do factoring. She's having fun -- and learning her facts as she uses them -- not in isolation. She uses them in long mult/div/fractions, etc. She has mastered some facts but not all. She never asks for help and takes just a few seconds to figure out the product on her own.

 

Dd would hate drilling math facts. She'd rather learn something new and interesting.

 

My older dc did drill/kill via daily Saxon timed math tests at private school. They knew their facts early -- but at the expense of going deeper/farther in math.

 

I'm curious if others here agree/disagree with this.

 

Dd 7 does piano/chess/puzzles, etc. We do rabbit trails but we don't drill facts.

 

No tomatoes, please. :)

[abbeyej]

The "5" in the title standards for average 5th and the "4" stands for advanced 4th. So a student using 5/4 in 3rd would be accelerated 2 years from average.

 

That's what Saxon says, but it's *not* what many schools (especially the private classical schools) do. They use 5/4 in 3rd grade.

[Jen in PA]

:iagree: and respectfully disagree on one of your points.

 

The facts don't need to be memorized to move ahead. Dd7 is doing Singapore 4A but still sings her skip-counting songs to do factoring. She's having fun -- and learning her facts as she uses them -- not in isolation. She uses them in long mult/div/fractions, etc. She has mastered some facts but not all. She never asks for help and takes just a few seconds to figure out the product on her own.

 

Dd would hate drilling math facts. She'd rather learn something new and interesting.

 

My older dc did drill/kill via daily Saxon timed math tests at private school. They knew their facts early -- but at the expense of going deeper/farther in math.

 

I'm curious if others here agree/disagree with this.

 

Dd 7 does piano/chess/puzzles, etc. We do rabbit trails but we don't drill facts.

 

No tomatoes, please. :)

 

Beth, I am just really getting strict about facts memorization with my dd now that she is halfway through 5A. Until a couple of months ago I was fine with having her use a multiplication chart or figure out the product in her head. Once we got into 5A I really noticed that having each problem take so long to work out was drawing out the length of our math lessons. Since DD is only 7, longer lessons are frustrating, and she was even more frustrated to not be able to move on to new concepts faster. I was hesitant to push rote memorization of facts last year because it seemed crazy to tell a kid who was working so far ahead and so willingly in math to work even harder. Then I was worried that drilling would kill her love of math -- now I'm worried that she will lose interest if she doesn't get the facts down cold. I think it's a matter of finding the threshold for the particular child. I know some people have posted that the facts just sort of sank in through use for their dc, but that has only been the case for about 50% of them here.

[abbeyej]

IMHO & IME, there is no need to slow him down so long as he's thriving. Feel free to throw in some interesting rabbit trails (graphing, geometry, word problems) from whatever resources you have on hand. Be certain the facts are 100% memorized. . . and just enjoy the ride.

 

I agree completely. I had one child start on a rigorous high school algebra 1 course just before he turned 10. He did very well with it. He's taking a high school honors geometry class now (turned 11 the week the class began) and has one of the highest grades in the class. He just *gets* math.

 

We did go deeper along the way (lots of supplements, including interesting and challenging things like Number Devil and Math Olympiad, etc), but faster happened too. A lot of people warned me that he would slow down (well, I guess they're right in that he's working at about 1 course per year now, rather than 2-3) and "hit a wall" (that hasn't happened yet and I doubt it will), etc, etc. But I have zero regrets about working to provide him greater challenge and a chance to advance as he was ready.

 

My other child really struggles to do math anywhere near the level of her other work. Sigh. It's just the way it is. I try to provide each of them with work that's on a level and pace that's right for *them*, to develop mathematical understanding and competence...

[jennynd]

I don't know if I will move on my kids on if the basic is not solid. like pp said, the math time getting longer and longer when the kids not master facts and then doing the more more complicate math become a drag. Understood that drill will kill the love for math but frustration also will.

When ds was younger, we did just one or two math fact a time on the ride home. I didn't start him with multi-digit multiplication until the multiple table become a reflex. I stronger against drill on addition/subtraction, However, I think Multiplication table is a must..

And when I was a kids. the table was required to be memorized be end of 2nd grade

Edited February 22, 2011 by jennynd

[regentrude]

I noticed that very bright kids can have trouble with the multiplication tables because this will be the first time they ever have to put an effort into learning something. Concepts they get immediately - but knowing the math facts, even smart kids have to work on.

My DD was resisting it a lot - for her, everything had always come easy and not knowing the facts right away seemed to her a sign of being stupid. I insisted and once she got over the "I don't want to do this, I don't know how to learn them" she mastered them in a short time.

 

Although it is possible to progress with 'crutches" like tables, skip counting etc, this makes math take longer and also does not allow the studnet to become truly familiar with numbers. Eventually, the student should be able to "see" multiples, factors, squares, prime numbers up to a certain number- without thinking. Only then he can be really effective at higher math.

[Storm Bay]

:iagree: and respectfully disagree on one of your points.

 

The facts don't need to be memorized to move ahead.

I'm curious if others here agree/disagree with this.

 

Yes, but I do hate skip counting, which is what my youngest prefers to do. My dd's learned their facts by doing math, but they didn't skip count. They are good at visualizing math.

 

That's what Saxon says, but it's *not* what many schools (especially the private classical schools) do. They use 5/4 in 3rd grade.

That's correct.

 

I know some people have posted that the facts just sort of sank in through use for their dc, but that has only been the case for about 50% of them here.

This is an important point; some dc do need rote memorization of facts.

 

 

Although it is possible to progress with 'crutches" like tables, skip counting etc, this makes math take longer and also does not allow the studnet to become truly familiar with numbers. Eventually, the student should be able to "see" multiples, factors, squares, prime numbers up to a certain number- without thinking. Only then he can be really effective at higher math.

:iagree: that dc should be able to see them or get them without thinking. However, I found the hard way that dc learn these in different ways. My dd's can "see" mulitples and both learned their math facts by doing math, which is not how I thought things would go. I was sure we'd drill, and started doing so when I pulled my eldest out of ps. However I had to choose my battles with my eldest so that I had time for my other two, and that was one that had to go. (were you on the old WTM boards with a different name? I see you joined this forum last year, but it was on the old boards that I went through that process. This forum replaced it in Jan 2008.) So far, the two who have made it to Algebra had these skills down beforehand. My dd's didn't use skip counting or tables, but I have caught my ds skipcounting because he thinks it's funny, so we will be doing a special drill I thought of with him because it works best for him even though he has been learning the facts in spite of himself.

[Beth in SW WA]

I noticed that very bright kids can have trouble with the multiplication tables because this will be the first time they ever have to put an effort into learning something. Concepts they get immediately - but knowing the math facts, even smart kids have to work on.

My DD was resisting it a lot - for her, everything had always come easy and not knowing the facts right away seemed to her a sign of being stupid. I insisted and once she got over the "I don't want to do this, I don't know how to learn them" she mastered them in a short time.

 

Although it is possible to progress with 'crutches" like tables, skip counting etc, this makes math take longer and also does not allow the studnet to become truly familiar with numbers. Eventually, the student should be able to "see" multiples, factors, squares, prime numbers up to a certain number- without thinking. Only then he can be really effective at higher math.

 

I'm assuming dd7 will learn them with instant recall by 4th grade at the latest. I'm not worried about it now. She's never worked with a table. She resorts to skip-counting often -- but it doesn't slow her down at all. She is flying through math lessons. She enjoys math. We spend our extra time on the fun stuff -- piano, chess, etc, -- as I mentioned before.

 

Despite not knowing her facts, she is thriving at factoring, long mult and what I call short division (a multi-digit number divided by a single digit).

 

The conversations I have read here recently regarding 'outside the box' teaching/thinking has me pondering/reconsidering my approach. I'm not so caught up on checking a box (which is what I'd be doing by drilling mult/div math facts at age 7).

 

It will come. For now, we're enjoying the journey. :)

[HeidiD]

This, in my view. Go deeper instead of broader; transfer math skills to real problems. Algebra is easiest when the brain is physiologically capable of handling it, and even if gifted brains mature faster, there is no reason to push. Doesn't mean stop math or go slower. Just go differently.

 

I try to do this on an ongoing basis, making certain that they fully understand concepts, and using other materials besides Saxon (particularly Singapore and other problem-solving books) for variety and enrichment. The net effect has been that they've ended up skipping chunks, and sometimes complete levels of Saxon. My 3rd grader is using Algebra 1/2, and it's not significantly more difficult than 7/6. I'm not sure what makes a "brain physiologically capable" of handling algebra? I think sometimes the problem is in the way a subject is presented rather than with the student's capabilities. If algebra is initially presented in a concrete rather than abstract manner, it's much easier to grasp.

[brownie]

I checked our public school's curriculum today. Saxon 7/6, which we are doing now, seems to be a direct match for Harcourt Grade 5, at least topically...it covers the 4 operations with decimals, addition and multiplication with fractions, percents, ratios, etc...

 

Brownie

[HeidiD]

I checked our public school's curriculum today. Saxon 7/6, which we are doing now, seems to be a direct match for Harcourt Grade 5, at least topically...it covers the 4 operations with decimals, addition and multiplication with fractions, percents, ratios, etc...

 

Brownie

 

So Saxon Algebra 1/2 would be for grade 6 then? That makes sense, because my sixth grader (who isn't accelerated - he's dyslexic and math doesn't come easily to him) is using the Algebra 1/2 along with his younger brother, and it's a comfortable fit for him.

 

As an aside, I agree with the comments in this thread regarding "racing through" math. It's far more important that they understand the material thoroughly than that they "cover" it within a particular time frame. A few years ago, I watched a video from "Systematic Mathematics", and Paul, the teacher of the program, opined that in the US these days, the focus of teaching in the elementary years is to cover a far greater number of topics each school year than in the past, rather than spend an adequate amount of time cementing the basics thoroughly before moving on. I think he makes a good point.

 

http://systemath.com/index.php/2008010521/How-It-Works/The-Decline-of-Math.html

 

 

And a natural result is that often the textbooks we use are crammed with many more topics at the elementary levels than they used to be (topics which could easily be picked up later), which weakens the focus on the foundational skills. Part of the appeal of the "Russian Math" books (at least to me) is the logical progression of topics, along with the straightforwardness and clarity of presentation. :)

[Beth in SW WA]

Updating to say that I bought Times Tales dvd and we will be working hard & heavy on mult math facts before moving ahead. Dd7 is now facing fractions, decimals and long division/mult. I guess it's time to drill, baby, drill.

 

Thanks for being the voice of reason, folks. You are a wealth of info for this mom who, despite her best intentions, does NOT know everything. :)

[Reya]

Move him back to Singapore. It's MUCH more appropriate. And let him go at his own speed. He'll find his level.

[LibraryLover]

My 11 yr old 5th grader is doing Alegbra easily. I don't see that as a problem.

 

 

I got a little concerned when I started doing the long range plan in my head. If he does 54 now in 2nd grade, he'd hit algebra in 6th or 7th grade, probably 6th at the rate he flies through math books. It's helpful to see that other children are doing algebra at a very young age without any problems.

 

But the above analogy about music and sports makes a lot of sense. No, I wouldn't hold my children back, I would let them excel at their own rate. So I will just let him go and if he seems overwhelmed, we have a lot of room to slow down and take our time.

[bairnmama]

For a student who is struggling in math, waiting until 9th for algebra might make sense..... For an accelerated student it could be disastrous. Pushing Algebra I to 9th and assuming room in the schedule for only one math class per year, a student would go no further than pre-calculus. Even if a student did double up and do 2 maths in one year, that would still allow space for only one of two possible AP math topics. It would also have an impact on which science classes could be completed prior to graduation. For a student planning to go into the humanities this might not matter, but it could mean ruling out admission to top college programs in math/science/engineering before the child is even out of middle school.

 

 

I didn't get past this post, but thought I'd chime in. When I was in school, algebra simply wasn't an option before 9th grade. Honors track students were placed in "Honors Math" in 8th and then Alg 1 in 9th. I was still able to take Trig and Alg 2 in the same year along with AP chemistry and then AP calculus together with AP physics. There was room in my senior year to add in Elementary Analysis together with the calc, but I decided against it. So, while I don't think Algebra has to wait till 9th, it's not the end of the world if it ends up that way.

[catz]

I didn't get past this post, but thought I'd chime in. When I was in school, algebra simply wasn't an option before 9th grade. Honors track students were placed in "Honors Math" in 8th and then Alg 1 in 9th. I was still able to take Trig and Alg 2 in the same year along with AP chemistry and then AP calculus together with AP physics. There was room in my senior year to add in Elementary Analysis together with the calc, but I decided against it. So, while I don't think Algebra has to wait till 9th, it's not the end of the world if it ends up that way.

 

Algebra I was not an option for me before 9th grade either. I took Algebra I and Geometry simultaneously in 9th and took AP Calc in 12th. Went on to get a math and comp sci degree at a competitive tech school. So I'd definitely agree that you don't have to do algebra early to be very successful with higher level math.

 

That said my 4th grader's doing algebra without too many issues. But I definitely prefer the slow, deep, challenging curriculum approach to racing through. But when your kid says "I get this - can we move on now", I think you have to listen. I hated math until I got to algebra because it was so slow paced, boring, and rote. I would have definitely been served better by a more conceptual math approach and earlier exposure. (I love Singapore & it's components for the record). If I can keep my younger in lower level math longer than her brother, I will. She has the ability, but doesn't push as hard as him to get to higher level stuff so I may just be able to do that!