Pre-Algebra Options?

[Trish]

I was hoping to use Horizons, because both my 4th grader and 6th grader are using Horizons this year. The 4th grader is not crazy about it, so I'm switching him to Math Mammoth for 5th. But I was ready to do Horizons pre-Algebra next year with my 6th grader, but he tells me today he doesn't really like it! (he is an easy student who doesn't complain, so who knew?!) I supplement both kids with Life of Fred, which they enjoy immensely. In fact the 6th grader is doing LOF pre-algebra w/Biology right now.

 

However as much as I like Fred, I get nervous when there isn't a workbook type book with lots of problems! So I have to figure out something for next year for 7th grade that will fill the bill. (we're planning to continue LOF pre-alegbra w/economics for next year, and perhaps LOF pre-alebra w/physics when it comes out)

 

But what is the workbook to be? He is a good math student.

 

Anyone have ideas on 7th grade/pre-algebra options I could consider?

[Capt_Uhura]

It's not out yet, but supposedly Art of Problem Solving is coming out with a pre-algebra book by the fall.

 

I don't think LOF physics is coming out for a while. I asked Dr. Schmidt about it and he said he was working on the lower grades for now.

[HollyDay]

TT

Saxon

AOP has both SOS and LifePac

BJU

 

Someone could probably address Lial's, but I have not used it.

[PeterPan]

Trish, did you buy the Horizons pre-algebra and actually have him try it? What is your ds basing his opinion on? The pre-algebra is supposed to have much shorter lessons. I was thinking it might pair well with the Math Mammoth pre-algebra supplemental workpages. Alternately you could pair them with LoF. I have it, and it's sort of out of the box for my taste. I don't know if my dd would learn well with that or get lost in the details.

 

The MM website also has a whole list of pre-algebra text suggestions.

 

In any case, I was curious what he was basing his opinion on, since I've been considering it (the Horizons pre-algebra). We don't have enough feedback yet to know much about it.

[Trish]

Trish, did you buy the Horizons pre-algebra and actually have him try it? What is your ds basing his opinion on? The pre-algebra is supposed to have much shorter lessons. I was thinking it might pair well with the Math Mammoth pre-algebra supplemental workpages. Alternately you could pair them with LoF. I have it, and it's sort of out of the box for my taste. I don't know if my dd would learn well with that or get lost in the details.

 

The MM website also has a whole list of pre-algebra text suggestions.

 

In any case, I was curious what he was basing his opinion on, since I've been considering it (the Horizons pre-algebra). We don't have enough feedback yet to know much about it.

 

Hello Elizabeth,

 

This whole thing took me by surprise because I'm actually in the process of formulating my plan for next year, thought Horizons pre-algebra for next year was a done deal, and was just waiting for "Math Month" at the Homeschool Buyers' Co-op in order to buy it!

 

What triggered the discussion was going from Book I of Horizons 6, and I just brought out the brand-spankin' fresh Book II for him, and he said, "oh, no, not another whole BOOK of this stuff!" (now part of that may just be the disappointment of realizing math was not "over" for the year in February, haha!) So I said, well we were going to do the same series next year for pre-algebra, don't you like it?

 

He basically said it was long and boring. Admittedly, I have go through ahead of time and do some cross-outs because they are spiral, and some stuff he clearly knows. So we do 1-2 lessons a day depending on what else is going on. I don't think timewise it takes him that long, but he seems to find it repititious.

 

I haven't completely ruled Horizons out, maybe I can find some samples to show him to see what he thinks. Also I like the idea of checking out the math mammoth supplements and suggestions! Thanks for tipping me off to that.

 

I have even wondered if I should try Professor B Level III -- would that solidify things before heading into algebra for 8th, or would it throw things into confusion?

 

:confused:

[AngieW in Texas]

You should look at Kinetic Books Pre-algebra. My youngest would be using it right now if she wasn't dead-set against using anything that's on the computer.

[Trish]

You should look at Kinetic Books Pre-algebra. My youngest would be using it right now if she wasn't dead-set against using anything that's on the computer.

 

Thanks, Angie, that's a similar set-up to Professor B. I'm not ruling that out, I just have no idea how math on the computer would fly with us.

 

I guess there's also Singapore New Math Counts (gr. 6-8), OR Singapore New Elementary Math for Grade 7.

[8filltheheart]

I'm on my 5th time through MUS's alg/geo combo book as a pre-alg.pre-geo book. I don't think that they are printing it any more, but it has worked well for us. Sue in St. Pete used the new alg book and Patty Paper Geometry together last yr. She has posted about how that worked, but I don't really remember off the top of my head.

 

I looked through the materials that are viewable online and the Horizons pre-alg's geometry portion looks very similar to the MUS material. The pre-alg portion does not go as far as MUS"s. (my 6th grader is on lesson 22 in the combo book right now and this week she has been finding the square root of equations like x^2+6x+9 and finding the factors of the differences of 2 squares (like x^2-9)

 

My kids have finished Horizons 6 ready to alg but not mature enough to deal with a typical alg textbook. MUS is very uncluttered and only has a few problems/page vs. 75+ problems/section in typical high school books.

 

FWIW......I always repeat alg followed by another yr of geo after using MUS.

[Teresa in MO]

I'm on my 5th time through MUS's alg/geo combo book as a pre-alg.pre-geo book. I don't think that they are printing it any more, but it has worked well for us. Sue in St. Pete used the new alg book and Patty Paper Geometry together last yr. She has posted about how that worked, but I don't really remember off the top of my head.

 

I looked through the materials that are viewable online and the Horizons pre-alg's geometry portion looks very similar to the MUS material. The pre-alg portion does not go as far as MUS"s. (my 6th grader is on lesson 22 in the combo book right now and this week she has been finding the square root of equations like x^2+6x+9 and finding the factors of the differences of 2 squares (like x^2-9)

 

My kids have finished Horizons 6 ready to alg but not mature enough to deal with a typical alg textbook. MUS is very uncluttered and only has a few problems/page vs. 75+ problems/section in typical high school books.

 

FWIW......I always repeat alg followed by another yr of geo after using MUS.

 

Can you tell me what you use for alg and geo after you use MUS?

[8filltheheart]

Can you tell me what you use for alg and geo after you use MUS?

 

Foerster's alg and CD's new geo program.

 

For kids that love and enjoy challenging math, I would also recommend AoPS.

[awstgs]

We have used Abeka, Saxon, Horizon, and MUS. My son wasn't thrilled about any of them. For pre algebra this year, we are using Lial's BCM. It's been the best year we have ever had. I realize it's mostly a review, but it's a wonderful textbook. The explanations are great. I also loved the fact that after spending hundreds of dollars on math curriculum, I finally found something that worked for less than 6 bucks! I already purchased Lial's Algebra 1 book for next year.

[Matryoshka]

I've got two in 7th this year. One is using Singapore's Discovering Mathematics 1, but I'm not sure if that would work so well for someone who's not coming from Singapore Primary.

 

My other dd is using Lial's Pre-Algebra. We started the year with Lial's BCM based on all the great reviews, but she was miserable. It was 95% review, ad nauseum. She made lots of sloppy mistakes, which I'm now thinking was largely boredom. We switched to the Pre-Algebra and she's much, much happier, and is making far, far fewer sloppy mistakes. I'm wondering if maybe this was because even though Singapore 6 kicked her butt, BCM seemed almost like a step down in challenge. I think she felt she was being punished somehow.

 

She'll be moving on to Lial's Introductory Algebra next year. Now that we've got her working at a level she's happy with, she really likes the books. It sounds like either BCM or the Pre-Algebra work well depending on where the kid's at.

Edited February 10, 2011 by matroyshka

[mom31257]

Have you looked at CLE Math? You could use their placement test to figure out just which level. It is spiral like Horizons, so there would be plenty of review. DD is using 8th grade along with LoF Pre-Algebra. I wish I had know about it sooner. She is not a natural math person, unlike her momma, and it has really helped her this year.

[wapiti]

I'd love to hear any comparisons between Russian Math 6 and something like Lial's Pre-algebra (or anything else for that matter). :bigear: :)

[Trish]

I have enjoyed exploring all these suggestions (and it has given me some ideas regarding algebra itself going forward.) Honestly I like the looks of the Horizons pre-algebra sample! I think it's great to have threads with lots of algebra/pre-algebra options all gathered in one place. Especially because these issues go a little bit beyond the standard elementary math curriculum aspects.

 

I'm going to do more investigating from the suggestions here, at the same time I'm hoping to show my son the Horizon sample and see if he might still want to do the pre-algebra. He does love Life of Fred, which we are doing regardless.

[Matryoshka]

I'd love to hear any comparisons between Russian Math 6 and something like Lial's Pre-algebra (or anything else for that matter). :bigear: :)

 

 

I haven't seen the Russian Math 6, just read about it a lot here. But from what I've heard, my guess is it would be a bit more challenging than even the Lial's Pre-Algebra. I keep hearing how Russian Math 6 is even more challenging than Singapore 6. The whole reason I switched to Lial's for this kid is that she needed something more clear and incremental than Singapore (just didn't need to go as far back as BCM). The word problems are much easier than in Singapore, and the equations stay fairly straightforward - here I'm comparing to DM rather than PM, as they don't get into equations yet. Singapore DM introduces variables and then - BAM -has them solving equations with radicals and factoring. The Lial's gets to that much more gradually. The Lial's is introducing her to new topics like negative numbers, solving equations with variables and graphing equations, but the level of thinking and problem solving is not as challenging as even Singapore 6, if that makes any sense.

[awstgs]

I haven't seen the Russian Math 6, just read about it a lot here. But from what I've heard, my guess is it would be a bit more challenging than even the Lial's Pre-Algebra. I keep hearing how Russian Math 6 is even more challenging than Singapore 6. The whole reason I switched to Lial's for this kid is that she needed something more clear and incremental than Singapore (just didn't need to go as far back as BCM). The word problems are much easier than in Singapore, and the equations stay fairly straightforward - here I'm comparing to DM rather than PM, as they don't get into equations yet. Singapore DM introduces variables and then - BAM -has them solving equations with radicals and factoring. The Lial's gets to that much more gradually. The Lial's is introducing her to new topics like negative numbers, solving equations with variables and graphing equations, but the level of thinking and problem solving is not as challenging as even Singapore 6, if that makes any sense.

 

We did the second half of 9.4 in BCM today, and it was pretty challenging. Since you think Singapore 6 is more challenging, what kind of problems does it have? Singapore is one of the few math programs I haven't tried. Just curious.

[Trish]

Just going to bump this because there is another thread today asking about what's between MM and Foerster's.

[shanvan]

We have used Abeka, Saxon, Horizon, and MUS. My son wasn't thrilled about any of them. For pre algebra this year, we are using Lial's BCM. It's been the best year we have ever had. I realize it's mostly a review, but it's a wonderful textbook. The explanations are great. I also loved the fact that after spending hundreds of dollars on math curriculum, I finally found something that worked for less than 6 bucks! I already purchased Lial's Algebra 1 book for next year.

 

 

:iagree:Especially with the bold text above. We have become Lials lovers here.

 

Shannon

[PeterPan]

Oh Shannon you're killing me! I had never given Lial's a lick of thought, and now I've spent the last couple days wondering if I should! So are you using the BCM or her pre-algebra or the algebra?

[MSMatt]

My daughter just finished Prentice Hall Pre Algebra. It was an actual textbook from the school my son brought home years ago. It was very thorough.

It has online websites to go to for more help and tests, extra help pages per chapter, reviews, cummulative reviews, even quizzes. My dd is not a math minded person and did very well. WE did all the odd problems, those answers are in the book.

It did take us a long time to do 13 chapters but we did every odd problem. I want her to have a solid math backround. SO we went slow and steady.

[shanvan]

Oh Shannon you're killing me! I had never given Lial's a lick of thought, and now I've spent the last couple days wondering if I should! So are you using the BCM or her pre-algebra or the algebra?

 

 

Well, Elizabeth, it is only fair because you had me considering Omnibus after spending 2 years w/ TOG! Now I'm even considering combining (but that's a whole different story for another thread).

 

We are using Lial's BCM after a disastrous year with Chalkdust Prealgebra. I bought Chalkdust brand new too and was convinced we would be using it all the way through high school. For reasons I cannot entirely figure out, it just did not work for DS. Perhaps it was too rigorous too fast. He's a reluctant math student. He doesn't do poorly (except with Chalkdust) he just doesn't enjoy math.

 

I went with BCM (for 7th grade- this year) because I wanted him to have another year of solidifying middle school math concepts before moving into Algebra. BCM is doing exactly that and he will probably finish it sometime in April depending on how fast he goes through the last 3 chapters. We'll either move to Algebra then or in the fall. I haven't decided yet. What is truly amazing to me is that he can do Math entirely independent of me using BCM. I do sometimes give him a short intro to the material, but the instruction and examples are so well done, he can handle the material on his own.

 

My whole approach has changed from trying to move ahead quickly to gradual, solid progression and constant re-evaluation of previously taught material. Too much was falling through the cracks with the pace I was setting previously. He's a little annoyed with me b/c he's having to encounter material previously studied and he liked being able to say he was a year ahead of his public school grade, but he'll get over it. I want him to face high school material with such a solid set of skills that I don't give it a second thought. I can see that he feels more secure with his work and I know I do.

 

Sorry I got so long and philosophical. You didn't ask for all that, I know!

 

Shannon

[PeterPan]

Well, Elizabeth, it is only fair because you had me considering Omnibus after spending 2 years w/ TOG! Now I'm even considering combining (but that's a whole different story for another thread).

 

We are using Lial's BCM after a disastrous year with Chalkdust Prealgebra. I bought Chalkdust brand new too and was convinced we would be using it all the way through high school. For reasons I cannot entirely figure out, it just did not work for DS. Perhaps it was too rigorous too fast. He's a reluctant math student. He doesn't do poorly (except with Chalkdust) he just doesn't enjoy math.

 

I went with BCM (for 7th grade- this year) because I wanted him to have another year of solidifying middle school math concepts before moving into Algebra. BCM is doing exactly that and he will probably finish it sometime in April depending on how fast he goes through the last 3 chapters. We'll either move to Algebra then or in the fall. I haven't decided yet. What is truly amazing to me is that he can do Math entirely independent of me using BCM. I do sometimes give him a short intro to the material, but the instruction and examples are so well done, he can handle the material on his own.

 

My whole approach has changed from trying to move ahead quickly to gradual, solid progression and constant re-evaluation of previously taught material. Too much was falling through the cracks with the pace I was setting previously. He's a little annoyed with me b/c he's having to encounter material previously studied and he liked being able to say he was a year ahead of his public school grade, but he'll get over it. I want him to face high school material with such a solid set of skills that I don't give it a second thought. I can see that he feels more secure with his work and I know I do.

 

Sorry I got so long and philosophical. You didn't ask for all that, I know!

 

Shannon

 

Hehe, you don't know how much consternation I've been having that you're looking away from TOG to Omnibus when I was thinking of shifting my plan from Omnibus *to* TOG, lol. But like you, I think it's that we both want both. Sane way to do this? No clue, lol. Karenciavo seems to have come the closest, and Joan in Geneva had good ideas (use a spine, plug in TOG or Omni where they apply). What bugs me is that so many people seem to flop or get flustered with combining TOG and Omnibus. I think it's partly how committed you are to one or the other and what you really want. But that's just an aside.

 

On the math, I haven't seen either of the Lial's texts yet. Yes, that's where I'm at with the get it solid thing. Some kids can rush or chop and be fine, but some really need the practice to get them solid. I don't know why he feels behind though. Doing pre-algebra this year (7th) still puts him on the most advanced, normal track. There's just no reason (except extreme giftedness at math) to be further ahead. Are you feeling like BCM isn't really pre-algebra and that you ought to do another year of actual pre-algebra? I have no clue, haven't seen the books myself. I was just sort of reading into what you were saying. At this point with my dd I think I've come to the conclusion that we're going to do several pre-algebra things before we move on. I know I could put her into some basic level algebra (thinking of a particular one which I'll refrain from naming since I have such distaste for it and others like it), but that's not the same as being able to think about the math and apply it. I don't think you can rush that higher level of understanding. So you can rush into a LOW level of understanding with a moderately ready kid, but it takes time to nurture a higher level of thought in that more moderate kid, kwim? I don't see the need to rush. You can do Algebra 1 in 9th, double for geometry and alg. 2 in 10th, and still hit calculus by your senior year. There is no rush. The real need is to do the material deeply and be able to solve problems and apply the concepts.

 

Well I'm rattling. I was curious though to hear your take on BCM and where your current insecurities are coming from. A typical 7th gr math book and pre-algebra overlap so much, I've wondered if that's the difference between BCM and the pre-algebra book. But I really don't know. Do you?

[shanvan]

Hehe, you don't know how much consternation I've been having that you're looking away from TOG to Omnibus when I was thinking of shifting my plan from Omnibus *to* TOG, lol. But like you, I think it's that we both want both. Sane way to do this? No clue, lol. Karenciavo seems to have come the closest, and Joan in Geneva had good ideas (use a spine, plug in TOG or Omni where they apply). What bugs me is that so many people seem to flop or get flustered with combining TOG and Omnibus. I think it's partly how committed you are to one or the other and what you really want. But that's just an aside.

 

On the math, I haven't seen either of the Lial's texts yet. Yes, that's where I'm at with the get it solid thing. Some kids can rush or chop and be fine, but some really need the practice to get them solid. I don't know why he feels behind though. Doing pre-algebra this year (7th) still puts him on the most advanced, normal track.

 

It's a pride issue for him and that year of Chalkdust really hurt his ego.

 

There's just no reason (except extreme giftedness at math) to be further ahead. Are you feeling like BCM isn't really pre-algebra and that you ought to do another year of actual pre-algebra?

 

No, I don't feel that way---BUT I've seen it implied in posts. BCM just wasn't my original plan. We'll definitely move on to Algebra. I don't see the need to do yet another Prealgebra course, though I will probably also include some kind of review or drill on Prealgebra.

 

I have no clue, haven't seen the books myself. I was just sort of reading into what you were saying. At this point with my dd I think I've come to the conclusion that we're going to do several pre-algebra things before we move on. I know I could put her into some basic level algebra (thinking of a particular one which I'll refrain from naming since I have such distaste for it and others like it), but that's not the same as being able to think about the math and apply it. I don't think you can rush that higher level of understanding. So you can rush into a LOW level of understanding with a moderately ready kid, but it takes time to nurture a higher level of thought in that more moderate kid, kwim? :iagree:

 

I don't see the need to rush. You can do Algebra 1 in 9th, double for geometry and alg. 2 in 10th, and still hit calculus by your senior year. There is no rush. The real need is to do the material deeply and be able to solve problems and apply the concepts.

 

Well I'm rattling. I was curious though to hear your take on BCM and where your current insecurities are coming from. A typical 7th gr math book and pre-algebra overlap so much, I've wondered if that's the difference between BCM and the pre-algebra book. But I really don't know. Do you?

 

Jann in TX has addressed that issue on the high school board, I think. I spent tons of time reading her posts before I decided to try Lials. It was due to her recommendation that I went with BCM, which she considers a Prealgebra text. It was sort of a last minute decision that I tried it--fueled by the fact that it was sooo cheap! I'm still in shock that Last year I spent $400 on math and this year $7! I was originally considering going back through Chalkdust this year. I learned really well from it and just couldn't understand why DS didn't. If I had to pick math for me it would be CD.

 

I'd love to discuss the TOG/ Omni dilemma more. I have decided (sort of) to stick with TOG b/c I can keep younger DD with us for history---but I keep looking at Omni and wondering. Hows that for a decision!:001_rolleyes:

 

Shannon

[Matryoshka]

Well I'm rattling. I was curious though to hear your take on BCM and where your current insecurities are coming from. A typical 7th gr math book and pre-algebra overlap so much, I've wondered if that's the difference between BCM and the pre-algebra book. But I really don't know. Do you?

 

Way more difference than I was led to believe. I'd say which to pick would be based on how much review vs. new material you want.

 

Here's a link to the two TOCs for comparison.

 

I said in that thread that the one thing I'd miss from the BCM is the geometry chapter, but I now realize that the Pre-Algebra has all the geometry, it's just spread out one concept per chapter (many chapters end with a section on "Geometry Applications"). My dd is so much happier with the Pre-Algebra book - she's still reviewing everything she needs to, but the review includes (new or almost new to her) negative numbers, exponents, and variables, so she doesn't feel like she's slogging through stuff she's already done. YMMV, of course. :) I know so many people just love BCM. From what I've heard most people don't need another Pre-Algebra after BCM - it's more which of the books fits your kid better.

 

DD is liking the Lial's format and we'll be continuing with Introductory Algebra next year.

Edited February 11, 2011 by matroyshka

[PeterPan]

 

I'd love to discuss the TOG/ Omni dilemma more. I have decided (sort of) to stick with TOG b/c I can keep younger DD with us for history---but I keep looking at Omni and wondering. Hows that for a decision!:001_rolleyes:

 

Shannon

 

Yes, there's a lot of pride with the math thing. I keep thinking about it myself, wanting to make sure I'm really thinking about what is best for her. Sometimes it's hard to sort out. You want to move them forward and do a good job, but you have to make sure they're solid too. I try to balance it out by throwing in some more brain-tingling stuff on the side. Of course it's like history, never enough time to do all you can dream up. :)

 

Ok, Omnibus and TOG, sigh. Here's where I'm at. I'm absolute on the need for a providential viewpoint and thorough instruction in history. I'm not absolute on how to get there. I'm absolute on the value of having guidance in interpreting great literature and GB, rather than letting the student develop a sense of relativism and that whatever *he* thinks is useful or wise from it is. I think some kids are also able to read and tackle a lot more than others, even within families, meaning no single program ever fits some kids. I also think I am mortal and have limits (knowledge, ability to plan, time, endurance for things disliked, etc.).

 

So where does that all get me? I've concluded it's first and foremost a spiritual problem with me, a mental thing, a maturity step of coming to the point where I can finally ACCEPT something. I think I'm so theoretical that I drift around in the Land of Could's a very long time. I think my dd will be graduated before I move beyond that and into the Land of Wish I Had's. I have been trying to talk peace to myself lately and to tell myself that if I could move beyond that and focus on acceptance, probably ANY of the options I've considered are good. It merely remains to chose one and do it. It's sort of like marriage. Even though I've only had one husband, it was sort of a quick decision (we knew each other 2 weeks). I guess you can be impetuous, stick with it, and realize it worked out, or date a long time and realize it can work.

 

Oh, my good options, all of which I think have merit and could work, in no particular order:

-TOG, taking time and flexing it, feeling free to deviate and re-merge with it to bring in TC lectures, Omnibus sections, etc. I think it would also need a consistent spine (I have Kagan that Karenciavo keeps talking about, but whatever) and some re-arranging to make the plans include whole books at a pace that fits our kids (not chunked in shrivley amounts).

-Omnibus done straight, with a solid spine of choice, probably the BJU World History, as this would give you the christian viewpoint. It's not as in-depth as Spielvogel or Kagan, but you get the christian/providential viewpoint. I have an old version that includes questions that would work for essays and a really fabulous timeline showing all the cultures parallel.

-WTM order, bringing in whatever materials you have to apply to each book.

-BJU textbook spine done straight, bringing in the corresponding GB. The BJU World History text mentions basically all the GB that get covered in Omnibus, so this would work.

 

I think any of them would work. Some have more helps for mom. I ask myself which is the most efficient way of getting there and what I'm missing. I ask myself what I'll be fighting against and what I'll be lacking. Personally, for a young dc (6th and under), I'd consider putting them in the VP online self-paced classes and being done with it. My dd ADORES the self-paced MARR she's doing, just LOVES it.

[shanvan]

Elizabeth,

 

Your post made me smile as I've been thinking along the same lines about my history choices. It really won't be the end of the world no matter what we choose, will it? Hope to post again later...but need to run out and buy sneakers before 4h tonight!