pgr Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I'm continuing (for those who have noticed my other threads :blushing:) to rethink all aspects of my previous plan for next year... I initially planned to use Horizons for math, and supplement with Math on the Level because I love how it incorporates math into real life (or claims to, at least - I haven't actually held it in my own hands). I'm hearing a lot about Singapore (and MM and Miquon). My daughter is fairly strong in math, and able to do a lot of calcuations in her head. I think she'd like looking at something from different angles until she "gets it", though not from so many that it gets confusing. I don't think she'd have a lot of patience for continuing to repeat something she's already understood (extra repetition can be skipped, though, right?). I would still like to use MOL as a supplement. I've read that Singapore, MM, and Horizons are all generally above grade level. Any input on how they compare/contrast? Thank you!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggie96 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I am seeking info about this also. Cathy Duffy's review states that Horizons is more advanced than the other top programs out there (maybe excepting Singapore because it is so different). Not sure why I thought Saxon was advanced, but... We are currently working through Horizons K and I have had to supplement like crazy because DD could be pushed significantly more in math. She loves it and catches on FAST. For 1st I had my mind made up to do Saxon, but now...I'm thinking Horizons? Having never seen Singapore, I am concerned about doing 2 programs and getting her confused. Homeschool veterans, which program is, or seems to be, most advanced? ...not trying to take over thread, just thought someone's info on this topic could help OP and me! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3littlemonkeys Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 :bigear: Another question I have as well...All of those are on "my list" to research!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I really like MM, but I haven't used the others. Here's a sampling of older threads on these math programs - good luck!! :) http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221476 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180052 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154086 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193441 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194968 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220720 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170574 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1786 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75475 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224486 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164345 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowfall Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) I don't know what the upper levels of Horizons teach with regard to strategies for addition, subtraction, etc., but the 1st grade level doesn't teach ANY strategies at all. They show kids how to count up on the number line, and a number line is included with every set of addition or subtraction problems that require regrouping (carrying or borrowing) until over halfway through the year. It's not until lesson 131 that regrouping (as carrying in addition) is introduced. Children are expected to memorize the 1-20 addition and subtraction facts as simple math facts prior to that point, and any other regrouping problems, such as 56+5 or 83-6, are supposed to be done with the use of the number line printed on the page. I just pulled out the (mostly useless) teacher's manual to look at how lesson 131 is to be presented. The description for introducing regrouping basically says to show the kids how, when adding 37+5 vertically, they should carry the one from the 7+5 to the 3. It says, "Show them how [adding the 1 ten to the 3 in the tens' column] can be done by putting the 1 above the three in the tens' column." That's the extent of their explanation of regrouping. That's not an explanation at all. That's an explanation of the algorithm, not the concept. Kids need to understand the concept. WHY are they "carrying" that 1? What is happening? Horizons doesn't bother to address that issue. I don't consider that advanced, as my 1st grader can mentally add 37+5 without using vertical columns at all, and she can tell you WHY she's doing it, too. She learned it from Righstart, which teaches place value and regrouping the way that Singapore and Math Mammoth do. I think you could easily use Horizons and make it as good as Singapore or MM, if you're skilled at math and skilled at explaining those things. If you aren't, then I wouldn't recommend Horizons. The program teaches kids the how of doing math, but not the why. If you want the why, then you will have to add it yourself. There's nothing at all wrong with that, as long as you're aware of it. :) Oh, and for reference, my daughter is in level B of Rightstart, about 2/3 of the way through. Edited February 9, 2011 by Snowfall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) Horizons does NOT teach math via algorithm. It teaches regrouping, etc via visuals like 10 and 1 rods for ages prior to expecting kids to understand carrying. Carrying is the regrouping that they have been learning via rods. As far as comparing them.....I have taught all levels of Horizons 5 times, I have gone through the Singapore books at least 1 time and have CWP levels 3,4,5, and own MM levels 3A&B, 5B, and 6A. I personally do not see much difference in the teaching instruction between Horizons and MM. The difference in that Horizons is spiral and MM is mastery. I think similarities are missed b/c Horizons instruction is so interspersed vs. all in one spot. When I look through MM, I can see that is how I have taught Horizons for yrs. I think the choice between the 2 is essentially which works better for your child, spiral or mastery. I do believe MM 6A offers more difficult problems than Horizons. The content is comparable for the most part (not enough difference to make me want to switch), but some of the problems are more complex. (B/c Horizons is spiral, it is impossible to open up the text to one lesson and state that "this is how x is taught. "X" has been taught through multiple lessons and all of those lessons would need to be evaluated as a whole) Singapore is completely different in its approach. Singapore manipulates numbers in a way that takes complex algebraic problems and makes them concrete. Some kids will love the challenge; some will be overwhelmed. FWIW.....I don't think you could go wrong with any of the 3. Students that have difficulty with math and understanding simple math manipulations would probably be frustrated by SM. Students that get it quickly and don't want repetition would probably be frustrated by MM and Horizons. Edited February 9, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowfall Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Horizons does NOT teach math via algorithm. It teaches regrouping, etc via visuals like 10 and 1 rods for ages prior to expecting kids to understand carrying. Carrying is the regrouping that they have been learning via rods. But I'm looking at the TM for the grade in which carrying is first introduced, and it doesn't do that. :confused: Anyway, I don't think it matters, as long as someone understands that they're going to have to do those things, whether it's in the TM or not. Is carrying introduced in the K level? In the 1st grade level they're expected to know that 82 is 8 tens + 2 ones, and they're shown base ten flats, rods, and ones and supposed to identify the amount. I thought that part was pretty spot on as far as introducing the concept of what numbers are and what they mean. I just think the TM is pretty lacking when it comes to explaining why you're carrying or borrowing numbers when you do the math. What I typed up there is word-for-word from the book, and it's the only explanation. Where I replaced a word, I just borrowed words from the sentence before it. I didn't substitute anything (the word 'that' is what I replaced, I think, lol). There are also no strategies for doing the mental math more quickly. At least not at the 1st grade level. I don't know about the rest. I've read every conceptual math thread here, and I've come to the conclusion that a good teacher or parent can teach the concepts regardless of the curriculum. My point is only that in grade 1 of Horizons, the explanation of regrouping in the TM leaves a lot to be desired. If you're good at doing those things yourself, then it doesn't matter. If you aren't, I think it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgr Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 Thank you so much for all the replies - I would multi-quote, but every single reply has been helpful, so thank you to each and every one! I realize that I forgot to mention that I am terrible with arithmetic (but better with things like geometry and algebra - go figure :confused:). I guess what I mean is that I probably would do better with a good teacher's manual holding my hand. That made me think that I would like Singapore. I printed out some of the sample pages and showed them to DD. She did not take to them at all. I didn't really like the layout - lots of information in bubbles? Obviously, it's nearly impossible to make a decision (or judgment) based on a handful of sample pages out of context. Also, I have not seen the HIG. She has been working through Horizons 1A as she wants (she's in Montessori K outside of home right now); the workbook seemed to have concepts she already is somewhat familiar with, so I thought I'd see if it's a good fit before committing to it as our core program for the fall. Well, interest has been waning (this kid loves math), and she seems to enjoy math much more when there's a real life application. Hence the trepidation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staceyshoe Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I have never seen Horizons. We are using Singapore, and I have the blue series (through grade 6 anyway) of MM. I almost switched to MM, but now I'm glad that I didn't. I really love MM, but I think I would be constantly struggling with how many problems to assign or not so that it's challenging but not too repetitive. (From comments on this board, it seems like there are a lot of problems to complete a level in the light blue series of MM, but that may be a mis-perception.) In all honesty, the other reason is that ds struggles with fine motor skills, and MM has smaller font and smaller spaces for writing answers. In the last 4 weeks, I've come to adore SM more than anything else I've found in homeschooling. I'm now using the HIG for the first time, and ds took a month off from his workbook to play games and do mental math exercises. MY math has grown tremendously. I can almost see the little neural pathways growing in his brain. It isn't just teaching him to "do math," it's teaching him new ways of thinking. I know that all kids have a different learning style, but I think SM is just so perfect for us that I had to comment on it. It may or may not be such a great fit for you and your child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowfall Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Have you considered Rightstart at all? I don't usually like to jump in and recommend something someone hasn't even asked about, but I'm doing it this time because you mention that she's in a Montessori school and it's my understanding that RS has some similarities with the format of Montessori math. I have never looked at Montessori math curricula at all, so I can't personally say it's true, but I've heard Dr. Cotter, who created RS, was a Montessori teacher and that it shares some features with Montessori math. if your daughter seems unimpressed with Singapore and you're considering a move from Horizons, perhaps RS would be a good fit for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgr Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 I really like MM, but I haven't used the others. Here's a sampling of older threads on these math programs - good luck!! :) http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221476 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180052 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154086 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193441 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194968 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220720 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170574 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1786 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75475 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224486 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164345 I had seen some of these in my prior searches (and "researches"), but missed many. Thank you SO much for taking the time to post this!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgr Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 Have you considered Rightstart at all? I don't usually like to jump in and recommend something someone hasn't even asked about, but I'm doing it this time because you mention that she's in a Montessori school and it's my understanding that RS has some similarities with the format of Montessori math. I have never looked at Montessori math curricula at all, so I can't personally say it's true, but I've heard Dr. Cotter, who created RS, was a Montessori teacher and that it shares some features with Montessori math. if your daughter seems unimpressed with Singapore and you're considering a move from Horizons, perhaps RS would be a good fit for you. I haven't looked at RS, but I will! :) It seems to keep coming up in the MM/SM discussions as well. Oh, and can SM CWP be purchased separately? It seems that, at least, would be a good supplement with any math program... Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowfall Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Yes, you can get the CWP books separately. We use them to supplement RS, which is weak on word problems. DD really enjoys CWP. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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