TheAutumnOak Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Can this be done and is it advised?...I started 5th grade work with my 10 year old in January, and he is doing okay in History, likes Science, but is still struggling with reading...He can read, but I don't think it is on a fifth grade level... I am torn between continuing on with his 5th grade subjects, or doing only remedial math and language arts until the Fall...That would put him in the fifth grade then instead of now...His birthday is in September...I wanted to stick with a January start, but am now not sure if we should continue with the 5th grade level work that I don't think he is ready for...I am also not sure if I am not having high enough expectations for him... I would love any advice...Just when I though everything was figured out, I am torn again...He never really had a fourth grade year...He started first grade at 7... When I re-read over the logic stage info in WTM, I don't think he can do work on that level yet... The question - Should I continue with what he is doing and just start teaching him like a logic stage student next year in the 6th grade, or stop and start 5th grade in the Fall? I really wish things had been different in the past and he was working on his grade level... Thanks so much to anyone who responds in advance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenKase Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 As a first year homeschooler, I too have found that some of the WTM logic stage recommendations may be more than my dd can handle straight away, especially when coming from a public school environment. I am constantly reminded/advised on these boards to meet her where she is and that the rest will follow. Also, keep in mind that the recommendations in the WTM are the creme de la creme. The authors have provided us with a (totally) comprehensive homeschooling plan. It DOES NOT have to be done exactly as written for every subject. Also remember that our dc need to begin with the fundamentals. If they are not securely in place, the will probably not be ready for the next stage. So when asked I say that my dd is in the 5th grade but in reality she is at, below, above across the spectrum of the grade, but so are mooooooost children. I live in NJ too and we are incredibly fortunate to be living in one of the most laxed homeschooling states where "grade" level really has not bearing in how we should/could/need to educate our children. This helps to keep me sane at times when I'm totally flippin out about my dc not meeting the "standards". What I've done is set logic stage "goals" that I would like for dd to meet before high school. With these in mind I can map out a plan on how to help her meet them. One thing I am finding with my own dc is that everyday brings on a new challenge and a new accomplishment. There are some days when we could barrel through and others where we have to slow waaaaay down. I see our learning experience as a living being that needs to be fed and nourished every.step.of.the.way. It's been humbling to say the least. I hope that my ramblings have offered some solace. I realize I probably have not answered your question. Hopefully some of the more experiences mom will pop in soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallory Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 He is also a very young 5th grader if he didn't turn 10 until Sept. My sept. baby is 11 and in 5th grade. Why did he skip 4th? If "holding him back" won't upset him, the I would say that will take a load off of everyone's shoulders. I think he is probably working at a level that isn't way behind for a 10 1/2 yo boy. I bet he is right in the middle if he is doing 4th grade work. But I also think much of 5-7 grade "on level" topics are repeated over and over. Middle school is about getting those basic skills ready for high school. Math is pretty much in a holding pattern, until thier brains are ready for algebra in 8th or 9th. The difference between what is expected for a paper in 4th grade compared to what is a paper in 9th grade is big, but you have all of logic stage to get there. You just keep working where he is. I wouldn't want to get rid of the fun subjects, because that would make school awful around here. But I do try to use our content subjects to keep working on those basics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 My ds was a delayed reader, yet he has high comprehension. I opted to not allow him to be "behind" (which is relative) and read to him the assignments/subjects that we above his reading level. As long as he understood what I was reading we moved forward. Then we spent his reading time to focus on increasing his reading skills. Right now his abilities span about five grade levels and his reading is now on grade level. Just to let you know where we are, our journey in classical education didn't start until 5th grade, we've homeschooled since first however. My son also has a September birthday and at age 13 is an older 7th grader. We follow an LCC approach more than WTM. Heres a few things we've done: Forget about grade levels. Technically my son is 7th grade, nothing he is doing is specifically labeled as 7th grade. In homeschooling your child may/probably won't progress through subjects as they would in a public/private school. They may absorb subjects like history and science more quickly, but need to slow down to work on writing skills. Teach at the pace of the child, not the lesson plan. Spending time to focus on reading skills was important to us. Consistent application, 30 minutes of reading a day, helped him. We take turn choosing books, I challenge a little more with each selection. My suggestion is to keep working on where he is based upon abilities. If he's using a curriculum with a grade level just continue progressing through it. What grade you call him is almost irrelevant. Did he skip 4th grade? What grade would he be in public school? Is there a reason he needs to be called a 6th grader in the fall? A lot of homeschoolers continue to call their children at their regular grade level, but their work level spans more than one level anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAutumnOak Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) Did he skip 4th grade? What grade would he be in public school? Is there a reason he needs to be called a 6th grader in the fall? Yes, he did skip fourth grade...He went to a Waldorf school for first grade and the cutoff to start first is later than our public school...He was 7 in the first grade there, but our school district cutoff is September 30th...Since he was born Sept. 4th, he would technically be in the fifth grade at PS... We started out the year in September doing a Waldorf style 4th grade...Then in October I started to have reservations about our Waldorf style...I saw WTM at a friend's house and borrowed it from the library and read it...I then decided to do a January start on a 5th grade level with him and a 1st grade start with my 6 yr old son who is also born in September...He has done no formal schooling before now... My 10 yr old has no problem being in the 4th grade this year...He is just worried that he will end up graduating at 19, since we started in January and wouldn't be done this year until the end of the year...That is probably not something to worry about now, but it is a concern for him...We also go to church where he is in a class with other preteens...He is also concerned that the kids his age will graduate after 12th grade, and he will have to explain why he is not graduating...Again, maybe not something to worry about, but is a concern for him...All that being said, he would feel fine about doing 4th grade work...He just wants to graduate at 18... I am thinking of starting both boys in 1st and 5th again since they have such late birthdays for their grades...I just am unsure because I feel badly about them being behind (mostly the 10 yr old - the 6 yr old will be fine)... DH is being supportive, but I am not really sure how he feels about everything as well...I have changed a lot around here in the past few months... Edited February 11, 2011 by TheAutumnOak Mistake - DS 6 born in September not January! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I understand the issue of graduation. We've dealt with that, although ds doesn't care. He'll turn 19 when he starts college. Even if you keep your ds in 4th, he won't be 19 until fall, is that right? Your school district has a late cutoff, I wouldn't be surprised if other parents have opted to hold their September birthday child back a year before starting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Logic stage is more than a list of books or a grade assignment. IS he a logic student? Can he think & reason as a logic student? Otherwise you're just going down a list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalmia Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 It is vital to meet him at his skill level. I'd focus on skills in his "work", but keep the science and history content level high (and thus keep his interest) by reading aloud in these areas. In The Read-Aloud Handbook, Jim Trelease recommends reading aloud material that is above the child's reading level. He continues this practice through high-school. In this way, the child is exposed to complex vocabulary, sentence structure and ideas in a way that can be explained or made easily understood by the parent [for example, the way you modulate your voice as you read a sentence helps the child understand which groups of words (phrases, clauses etc.) go together in that sentence.] Vocab, sentence structure and comprehension of ideas are vital "reading" skills that can be enhanced by "listening." In practice, your son might read a 3rd or 4th grade book on cells on his own and write a sentence or two narrative summary. Then for the next lesson, you would read him some 6th grade material on cells and ask for an oral narration. You could supplement with a science DVD on cells to to keep the interest level high. Also, while he will gain confidence and skill by reading simple chapter books. You will maintain his interest in literature by reading him books with ideas that are of interest to boys his age until he is ready to read them himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 there are "no grades" for the next 12 months or so, until you are more confident, you have worked on whatever remediation you think your ds needs, and he is more settled? It sounds like he is wanting some reassurance that he's still "normal" since you are now doing this weird homeschooling thing :tongue_smilie: I think that is totally understandable, but it's also something to begin to chip away at, because it may not, in the long run, be in his best interests to graduate at 18. Can you start to talk to him about how important it is to you that he be ready for the next step when he graduates? And you are committed to helping him get there, but at a pace that's comfortable for him. One of the great, great benefits of homeschooling is the freedom to move at the child's pace, without being held back or rushed along at an arbitrary pace determined by some outside force. The same logic applies to the question of grammar vs. logic stage: is he thinking and functioning like a logic stage student? As BlsdMama points out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I'm thinking that in a few more years, if you give him the chance to work on his skills now, the worries of today will disappear. He has plenty of time still over the next few years, to "catch up" and even "surpass" what other age-mates in p.s. might be doing. You sound like you are feeling guilty about what did or didn't get done in the past - ditch the guilt and start afresh today! :D I'd say, like others, meet him where he is now with skills work, let him practice those skills on whatever his history/science/literature reading are, and work up to "logic stage" study skills when he is ready. If he's learning to do narrations, that's fine. He doesn't need to outline right now. Which set of science experiment questions are appropriate for him right now - the grammar stage ones or the logic stage ones? Can he handle the lit. questions in logic stage right now, or should he stick with dictating or writing simple narrations still? There is no magical line between grade 4 and 5. There *is* a progression of skills that needs to happen, though. Different kids will progress at different rates in different areas. You can still call the rest of this year 4th grade, and call September 5th grade. My 10yodd was born in early October. When it came time for me to register her for homeschooling, the cutoff was Sept. 30, so she had a whole extra year to "wait." At the time, I was anxious to get her going, but as time went on, I saw that she couldn't do some of the "grade level appropriate" things of the kids who were born before Sept. 30, so I slowed her down. She is officially a 4th grader this year, and this is appropriate for her. Oh, and a few years after she started, the cutoff got moved to Dec. 31. So now, in Sunday School or whatever, she is mostly with younger kids, and there may be kids who are a month or two younger than her, who are in the "grade level" ahead of her. It's no big deal to her, because she's in no rush. But then again, she has been homeschooled from the beginning, using WTM, so I realize this is a bit different than your situation.....but I wonder with the other poster who said it might be a case of your son just trying to figure out how things are really going to work out and "just how big of a deal is this grade-level thing, anyway, Mom?" Anyway, good luck to you! Remember, time is still on your side and you are obviously making the most of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallory Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 He is just worried that he will end up graduating at 19, since we started in January and wouldn't be done this year until the end of the year But if you call the fall he turns 11 the start of his 5th grade year, and he will be done by the spring or summer of 12th grade- he'll still be 18. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testimony Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Heres a few things we've done: Forget about grade levels. Technically my son is 7th grade, nothing he is doing is specifically labeled as 7th grade. In homeschooling your child may/probably won't progress through subjects as they would in a public/private school. They may absorb subjects like history and science more quickly, but need to slow down to work on writing skills. Teach at the pace of the child, not the lesson plan. Spending time to focus on reading skills was important to us. Consistent application, 30 minutes of reading a day, helped him. We take turn choosing books, I challenge a little more with each selection. My suggestion is to keep working on where he is based upon abilities. If he's using a curriculum with a grade level just continue progressing through it. What grade you call him is almost irrelevant. Did he skip 4th grade? What grade would he be in public school? Is there a reason he needs to be called a 6th grader in the fall? A lot of homeschoolers continue to call their children at their regular grade level, but their work level spans more than one level anyway. :iagree: I am impressed with the really great advice you got here. I thought the same about the focus on his grade level. Focus on what your child can do and then concentrate on what level books he needs. I remember at one of the homeschoolers convention, a speaker's topic was about learning without labels. I thought that she would speak on learning disabilities. I was glad I went to the class because I learned how to teach my child without labeling him a fifth grader or sixth grader or first grader. What I got out of that lecture was to teach my child the raw basics and let them enjoy learning. We should not put labels like my child is a X grader. I fall guilty of doing it. I sometimes remember not to. Oh! I see that you are from New Jersey. Are you going to the state homeschool convention, ENOCH? They usually have great speakers that will inspire you. Also, hopefully there will be a Well Trained Mind table and someone there can talk to you. Blessings in your homeschooling journey! Don't give up! You are on the right track. Sincerely, Karen http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rootsnwings Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 :iagree: I whole heartedly agree with the previous posters! Don't worry about his grade level. Focus on HIM. Progress HIM. Is this his 1st year home? Has he ps'd all this time (I wasn't clear on that)? If this is his first year home I would really just focus on the basics. History and science he can get later. Focus on reading and math. Add things like History & Science in when he's feeling good about his math & reading... babysteps!!! :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I think you need to free yourself a bit. Right now you're making decisions based on the school still. You're wearing SHACKLES sister! You need to throw these things OFF! 1) One, call him by his age-grade. Unless the dc is just wicked smart (which some around here are), this works out well. It gives you leeway if they surge ahead later or they don't. The trick, especially with boys, is to use a little motherly wisdom on your cut-off date. Make it June or even July if you wish, not September. ;) I have a friend who grew up in Baltimore and she said it was the NORM for people to hold back their kids with summer or fall birthdays to make them more competitive in sports, socially as leaders, etc. You just shouldn't blink an eye about this. Our ds was due in September (though born in October) so we made this decision in advance. It gives you important flexibility with a boy, the option to go back later and bump him up if his situation warrants it. 2) No matter what, teach him where he is. That is all that matters. Call him 4th grade because that's the age-grade his is now, but teach him calculus and Homer. That's fine. But don't call him 5th now and have him feel flustered and pressured to do things he's not ready for, kwim? Start new materials or the next level of materials at any time, but make your official grade bump where he starts CALLING himself by that grade at the more traditional time (late summer or fall). Have you done any standardized testing? Try doing it, and do it at his age-grade, 4th. Might reassure you a lot. Sounds like he's a just fine 4th grader. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAutumnOak Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Thanks for all of the advice...I will try and answer the questions I was asked...Hope I don't miss any :tongue_smilie: He has never been to public school...He did 1st grade only at a Waldorf School and then was home for 2nd and 3rd grade...We just didn't do much...The Waldorf curriculum is very different from Classical...Delaying learning is seen as a very good thing...Emphasis is put on other things, like handwork, music, crafting, etc...Phonics is VERY MUCH discouraged...The belief is that children will learn to read without it...Many children at the school did not learn until third or fourth grade...During fourth grade, remediation is recommended if your child still struggles with reading... After reading A LOT about Waldorf, Rudolf Steiner, and Anthroposophy, I came to the conclusion that I no longer needed to follow their views on education...I read WTM and it made total sense to me... So now, he is use to being at home, but has never been educated in a real "formal" way like WTM suggests... We have never done any standardized testing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 You might want to look at Rewards Intermediate. It's a quick march through the more difficult phonics rules, work with multisyllable words, breaking down words for spelling and fluency work. It's meant as remediation for 4th through 6th graders who are reading at a 2.5 level, but haven't made the leap to reading to learn because their decoding and fluency are holding them back. You could go through the program in about 6 to 8 weeks and it might be enough to jumpstart your ds's reading and get him ready for 5th grade WTM work. Here's a link to the Sopris webpage: http://store.cambiumlearning.com/cs/Satellite?c=CLG_Content_C&childpagename=Sopris%2FSopris_Layout&cid=1277940904685&pagename=Sopris_Wrapper&rendermode=previewnoinsite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAutumnOak Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 You might want to look at Rewards Intermediate. It's a quick march through the more difficult phonics rules, work with multisyllable words, breaking down words for spelling and fluency work. It's meant as remediation for 4th through 6th graders who are reading at a 2.5 level, but haven't made the leap to reading to learn because their decoding and fluency are holding them back. You could go through the program in about 6 to 8 weeks and it might be enough to jumpstart your ds's reading and get him ready for 5th grade WTM work. Here's a link to the Sopris webpage: http://store.cambiumlearning.com/cs/Satellite?c=CLG_Content_C&childpagename=Sopris%2FSopris_Layout&cid=1277940904685&pagename=Sopris_Wrapper&rendermode=previewnoinsite That looks really good...Do you need the teacher's manual, or is the student book enough?...The student book is $11 which is great, but the teacher's book is $92 (which is not so great)...I just wonder if the teacher's book is necessary :blush: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Yes, you need the teacher's guide to be able to use it. Actually, you could do without the student book if you were willing to write the exercises on a white board. You might be able to find it used for less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M&M Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) You have made a lot of changes, and you need time to adjust. Forget about the grade levels, and forget about jumping into logic stage right now. You cannot expect to jump into classical ed at age level after doing a very relaxed schooling. That is raising the bar too high for a 10yo boy. We have always followed WTM, yet my oldest son was not ready for logic stage in 5th grade (and he was 11!). This is the boy who shut down in 3rd grade and stopped learning for most of the year. We worked on reading and a lot of attitude adjustment that year! We started 3rd grade over the next year and he did well. Now he is 12 and in 6th grade and is happy to be starting logic stage work in some subjects. Logic stage progression is sometimes gradual, some subjects they excel in and jump into logic stage learning while other subjects are still in grammar stage. Tell your son not to worry about his age at graduation, homeschooling does not work like traditional school. He has lots of time to "catch up" (I don't like using that term but in this case I will). Tell him that if he works hard on his reading and math skills, he can progress more quickly than his ps friends because his learning will set the pace of progression not the school calendar. Teach him phonics, I like OPGTR, I have used or am currently using it with all of my children except the oldest (it wasn't available then). It has served us well. There is someone on the boards that has a free site using Webster's Blue Backed Speller for phonics. She has a lot of info on remedial phonics, as she teaches it. I am a fan of simple products that are non-consumable and are easy to use PHP really fits the bill. From one Jersey girl to another, hope this helps! Edited February 11, 2011 by M&M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelBee Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Yes, he did skip fourth grade...He went to a Waldorf school for first grade and the cutoff to start first is later than our public school...He was 7 in the first grade there, but our school district cutoff is September 30th...Since he was born Sept. 4th, he would technically be in the fifth grade at PS... We started out the year in September doing a Waldorf style 4th grade...Then in October I started to have reservations about our Waldorf style...I saw WTM at a friend's house and borrowed it from the library and read it...I then decided to do a January start on a 5th grade level with him and a 1st grade start with my 6 yr old son who is also born in January...He has done no formal schooling before now... My 10 yr old has no problem being in the 4th grade this year...He is just worried that he will end up graduating at 19, since we started in January and wouldn't be done this year until the end of the year...That is probably not something to worry about now, but it is a concern for him...We also go to church where he is in a class with other preteens...He is also concerned that the kids his age will graduate after 12th grade, and he will have to explain why he is not graduating...Again, maybe not something to worry about, but is a concern for him...All that being said, he would feel fine about doing 4th grade work...He just wants to graduate at 18... I am thinking of starting both boys in 1st and 5th again since they have such late birthdays for their grades...I just am unsure because I feel badly about them being behind (mostly the 10 yr old - the 6 yr old will be fine)... DH is being supportive, but I am not really sure how he feels about everything as well...I have changed a lot around here in the past few months... Your 6 year old JUST turned 6 in Jan? If so... Honestly, I would move them into 4th and K. There is no rush. Have them work at their pace and make sure all gaps are filled. I am not planning on doing logic with my children until 7th grade. You have plenty of time. They are not behind. That is the beauty of homeschooling....you can move at your own pace. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelBee Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 And the "grade" they are in means nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAutumnOak Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 Your 6 year old JUST turned 6 in Jan? Actually that is a typo...He turned 6 in September, not January...I have January on the brain I guess :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelBee Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Actually that is a typo...He turned 6 in September, not January...I have January on the brain I guess :tongue_smilie: I would still have him in K. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aludlam Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I would still have him in K. :) Me too. I'm still confused .... what grade "should" your oldest be in according to the public school calendar? For your oldest, have you looked into Explode the Code and All About Spelling? They are great for phonics/spelling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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