.........

[*lifeoftheparty*]

.

[Julie in Austin]

I think you are combining two things that should be separated:

 

(1) whether the nation was founded on Christian principles in theory

 

and

 

(2) whether people fully lived up to those principles in practice

 

I think pretty much everyone agrees that (2) is a big "no." You will find heated disagreement about (1), however!

[Catherine]

the founders' intentions, a good place to start is simply our founding documents: the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, the Federalist Papers, the constitutional debates. There's no question that some of the founding fathers were devout Christian believers, and some were not.

 

 

As far as the behavior of our government re: Christian principals and moral precepts, well, I think you've made some excellent points. The truth it seems to me is that one's belief regarding the behavior of our government will depend on what "stripe" of Christian you are. Amish pacifists would have one set of beliefs about what is "Christlike", Reconstructionsists, a totally different one. Claiming one's military campaign or oppression is based on Christian principles is nothing new and IMO amounts to propaganda intended to silence detractors. There's nothing new under the sun!

[Mimm]

I agree with Julie's post and I would also say that even if a nation is founded on "Christian principles", flawed people can twist those principles to justify all manner of evil acts. Also, saying that we're "founded on Christian principles" is NOT the same as saying that we're a Christian nation. We can't be making laws that force people to follow a certain set of Christian ideals. (Really, it's impractical. Whose Christian principles are you going to follow anyway?)

[*lifeoftheparty*]

.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

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[LittleIzumi]

It seems more like the colonists didn't see the African Americans or Native Americans as PEOPLE, period. Godless savages to be treated like animals, more like. So maybe they didn't think the rules about treating your fellow man counted if they weren't "men." :ack2:

[Catherine]

Ask a hundred Christians, you'll get a hundred answers. There is NO universal agreement on it, none whatsoever, and that is exactly what allows cruel people and tyrants to hide their deeds behind this label.

 

I don't think you should assume that everyone who claims this label actively and critically read the Bible, studied it, understood it.

[LittleIzumi]

Oh, and dh (he's a history buff, lol) also wanted to remind everyone that keeping slavery Constitutional was The Great Compromise--the Northerners wanted to abolish slavery at the beginning but the Southerners refused to sign on if they did, and the nation would have fallen apart before it began, so slavery was permitted to save the nation essentially. And he also noted that they were just normal men. We are the ones who made them "The Founding Fathers" and put them on a pedestal. Many of them did have Christian values/been guided by God, but not all of them, and I'm sure many of them did things that were absolutely against their Christian faith (just like many Christians do today).

ETA: And there were African slaves in Europe itself & that mentality carried over.

[Mimm]

This is the part that puzzles me though. I just don't understand how they could have read the Bible, understood it, and sat down with such precision of thought to write the words, "All men are created equal." When they KNEW, it wasn't true.

 

I think you might be oversimplifying. These are people we're talking about. People have all kinds of ideals that they themselves don't live up to. I fail to live up to my own ideals on a daily basis. :) When we say that people aren't perfect, we're not trying to be flippant. They had good ideals, but they didn't live up to them. You can believe in equality and then rationalize that away. "Well, it would be nice if black people could be free but that's just not how the world is right now." Or "People are equal, but not those savage Indians. They're clearly getting in the way of this nation, which God wants us to establish. You know, so all men can be equal." ;) Also, at the time, they were rebelling against a British class system. So when they said all men created equal, that might have been on their mind. "All white men are born equal, none of those unfair titles and ranks."

[kalphs]

I think you are combining two things that should be separated:

 

(1) whether the nation was founded on Christian principles in theory

 

and

 

(2) whether people fully lived up to those principles in practice

 

I think pretty much everyone agrees that (2) is a big "no." You will find heated disagreement about (1), however!

:iagree:

[Sevilla]

You might find this book interesting/affirming of what you're wrestling with: http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Christian-Nation-Political-Destroying/dp/0310267315/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297039020&sr=8-1

[simka2]

I think you might be oversimplifying. These are people we're talking about. People have all kinds of ideals that they themselves don't live up to. I fail to live up to my own ideals on a daily basis. :) When we say that people aren't perfect, we're not trying to be flippant. They had good ideals, but they didn't live up to them. You can believe in equality and then rationalize that away. "Well, it would be nice if black people could be free but that's just not how the world is right now." Or "People are equal, but not those savage Indians. They're clearly getting in the way of this nation, which God wants us to establish. You know, so all men can be equal." ;) Also, at the time, they were rebelling against a British class system. So when they said all men created equal, that might have been on their mind. "All white men are born equal, none of those unfair titles and ranks."

 

:iagree:I wouldn't dream of defending some of the practices, but we can't divorce those practices from the culture AT THE TIME. Our culture say's slavery is WRONG, I'm not sure it was as clear to them.

 

The book of Philemon is a part of the Bible afterall ;). (Again, not an endorsement)

[kalphs]

You might find this book interesting/affirming of what you're wrestling with: http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Christian-Nation-Political-Destroying/dp/0310267315/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297039020&sr=8-1

Thank you for sharing this resource Sevilla! :)

[Slartibartfast]

Well, Thomas Jefferson wrote "All men are created equal" and he himself had slaves.

 

It is certainly not clear that he was a Christian at all. He gives contradictory commentary on faith in his letters.

 

It was a rebuttal to "The divine right of kings" which was the popular political theory of the day.

 

The Declaration of Independance initially contained passage critical of slavery but they were removed.

 

I do not believe that this country was founded on Christianity but I am Native American and a Christian.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

.

[Tabrett]

It seems more like the colonists didn't see the African Americans or Native Americans as PEOPLE, period. Godless savages to be treated like animals, more like. So maybe they didn't think the rules about treating your fellow man counted if they weren't "men." :ack2:

:iagree:I may be wrong, but I think they didn't believe they had a soul and therefore were animals and were treated like livestock.

 

People will believe a lot of crap to make them feel better and get what they want!

 

I remember watching the movie "Queen" the last "Roots" movie. In the movie 2 spinster "Christian" women took Queen in when she had her baby and commented on being able to treat Queen any way they pleased because she didn't have a soul.

[kalphs]

I just want to give DS a TRUE understanding of American History and not this mythical "America is and always has been right and just in everything!" view of America. I grew up in the South and DEFINITELY was taught this. "We ALWAYS did what was right." "We are #1!"

 

I know that slavery, as bad as it is/was, is in the Bible... but I have always been taught that it wasn't the same as what we had in America. (And please correct me, if I'm wrong) In Bible times slaves were still viewed as human beings who should be treated as such... IF you were Christian, you should treat your slaves with dignity and not beat them and most definitely not rape them, etc. But in America they were treated like worse than cattle (with a FEW exceptions). So, it isn't really the same... at least that is how I have seen/heard it explained.

 

I was raised in the southern culture with the same attitude.

The city nearest us still practiced segregation.

I remember seeing the "whites and coloreds" drinking fountains as a child.

Merchants who did not wish to serve the African Americans placed "We reserve the right to refuse service" signs in their windows.

The neighborhoods were segregated. White children and African American child did not play together.

My grandmother had a friend whose family members including her grandparents lived as slaves on a plantation.

SWB talked about slavery in "How did Christian slave owners justify slavery?" which can be found at

The exerpt is from the documentary "The Birth of Freedom" http://www.thebirthoffreedom.com

Edited February 7, 2011 by kalphs

[Mimm]

I guess... I understand it, but I don't UNDERSTAND it... LOL... does that make any sense?

 

I just want to give DS a TRUE understanding of American History and not this mythical "America is and always has been right and just in everything!" view of America. I grew up in the South and DEFINITELY was taught this. "We ALWAYS did what was right." "We are #1!"

 

I know that slavery, as bad as it is/was, is in the Bible... but I have always been taught that it wasn't the same as what we had in America. (And please correct me, if I'm wrong) In Bible times slaves were still viewed as human beings who should be treated as such... IF you were Christian, you should treat your slaves with dignity and not beat them and most definitely not rape them, etc. But in America they were treated like worse than cattle (with a FEW exceptions). So, it isn't really the same... at least that is how I have seen/heard it explained.

 

 

Good points :) It's just so HARD to believe, in THIS century, that people could ever believe that way.... I've always struggled with that!

 

One of our "Discussion Boards" questions was a scenario: Place yourself in Kentucky in 1861.... and choose which side to fight for and why. I had SUCH a hard time with that one, LOL, he reiterated that you MUST place yourself in that time period, but I just could NOT bring myself to that line of thinking......

 

I wouldn't assume that slaves in the Biblical times were treated better than American slaves. Again, the Bible talks about what you should do but didn't exactly conduct surveys to find out exactly what people were really doing. :)

[Greta]

It seems more like the colonists didn't see the African Americans or Native Americans as PEOPLE, period. Godless savages to be treated like animals, more like. So maybe they didn't think the rules about treating your fellow man counted if they weren't "men." :ack2:

 

:iagree:I may be wrong, but I think they didn't believe they had a soul and therefore were animals and were treated like livestock.

 

Bingo. It's shockingly easy to commit atrocities when you don't believe the other people involved are truly people. I say this not just pointing a finger at others, but with tremendous shame about how I myself used to view people who simply had the misfortune of not yet being born. Having been there myself, I know how easy it is to let the sentiments and the seemingly rational arguments pervasive in your culture override your deeper God-given instincts about right and wrong. And even though I am a Christian now, I'm not immune to this apathy. Most of us in the US right now have so much wealth and comfort and privilege, while people in other countries, and sometimes even our own, have no clean water to drink and not enough food to eat. It's just so shockingly easy to not think about it and say "it's not my problem" or "there's nothing I can do about it" or "they're poor because they're lazy" or "I earned what's mine" and go on about our business. But is it any less heartless, or less Christian, than what the Founding Fathers did? No. And yet here I sit in my comfy suburban home, doing nothing about it, and calling myself a Christian.

[UnsinkableKristen]

I think we need to be careful assuming we know the exact motivations, beliefs, and actions of people we do not actually know - especially historical figures. We can only know as much as what information we have and we must always acknowledge that even primary sources are not always unbiased.

 

I completely agree that too many Christians deify the men that built America, however, we should also be careful not to go too far in the other direction and say that because they made choices and held opinions so far beyond our understanding they are evil.

[Spy Car]

Most of the leading lights of the American founding were not Christians, but rather were Deists, in any case.

 

Bill

[Mejane]

Most of the leading lights of the American founding were not Christians, but rather were Deists, in any case.

 

Bill

 

Yes. This is no big secret. It's astounding to me that so many people either don't know or pretend not to know this.

[JennyD]

I am not Christian, but one of the things that has always struck me about the insistence that America was founded on Christian principles is that it minimizes the very real work that evangelical Christians did later on -- both in the abolitionist and women's rights movements -- to force a new reckoning about what equality meant.

[nrg]

The 1796 treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was "in no sense founded on the Christian religion" (see below). This was not an idle statement, meant to satisfy muslims-- they believed it and meant it. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.

 

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

[Gooblink]

Most of the leading lights of the American founding were not Christians, but rather were Deists, in any case.

 

Bill

 

I don't know about most, but certainly a few of the founding fathers and the philosophers they rode in on.

 

I think it's a stretch to say America was founded on "Christian" principles. What are those, anyway? Best to read their own words and judge for yourself.

 

I agree with the OPs assertion, though, that the propaganda is annoying - from any side.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

......

[kalphs]

Thanks guys! I will definitely check the links provided :) I am enjoying the discussion...

 

Whoever said it about making the FF out to be evil... yeah, I don't want to go that way either :) I just want to make sure I don't present them to DS as heroes. I don't want to vilify them, either, but teach him that the only PERFECT person was Jesus.... and discuss the mistakes made, instead of glossing over them... or worse, do away with them entirely :)

 

I would LOVE to say more, but I still have to write ONE MORE Essay for my Exam, on Alfred Thayer Mahan and his influence on the Navy (much lighter content, LOL!) and I only have 2 hours until it's due! AHHHHHH!!!

Thank you for starting this thread Gao!

Good luck on your exam! :)

[Alenee]

The 1796 treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was "in no sense founded on the Christian religion" (see below). This was not an idle statement, meant to satisfy muslims-- they believed it and meant it. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.

 

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

 

I just want to jump in here and point out that 'principles' of a religion and the 'religion' itself are two different things. If I had to guess, I would suspect that the idea in that document was to ensure that the Mahometan nation knew that our government wouldn't 'force' particular religious views on them.

[Spy Car]

I don't know about most, but certainly a few of the founding fathers and the philosophers they rode in on.

 

 

George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, and Thomas Paine were all Deists (not Christians). That is almost all the leading lights among America's founders.

 

Bill

[justamouse]

Most of the leading lights of the American founding were not Christians, but rather were Deists, in any case.

 

Bill

 

My husband, the history major, is cheering you.

 

For the rest:

 

God draws straight with crooked lines. (I forget who said that, but it wasn't me)

[*lifeoftheparty*]

.

[Gooblink]

George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, and Thomas Paine were all Deists (not Christians). That is almost all the leading lights among America's founders.

 

Bill

 

I'll give you Jefferson and Franklin, for sure.

 

Paine was an atheist, I thought.

 

As for Washington and Adams, I can't imagine what, from their writings, would lead one to believe they wouldn't call themselves Christian.

 

Monroe, Madison...I don't know. The way I interpret, the argument behind separation of Church and State wasn't from an irreligious perspective. Rather, it was because the various denominations of Christian leadership were gunning for control of a State religion. The Chrisitanity of the majority of America wasn't questioned and, in fact, even seen as positive towards the continuance of a moral, virtuous society.

 

This is still a pretty short list of founding fathers. I think there were 55 signers of the Declaration, alone. :001_smile:

 

Obviously niether you nor I can get into the heads of the founders, but they did leave a pretty good volume of evidence pointing to their beliefs. I just want make the point that, in addition to the "myth" of our nation being founded on Christian principles, is another myth that "most" of the founders would not call themselves Christian.

[Lady Florida.]

Paine was an atheist, I thought.

 

 

Paine was a deist. His pamphlet The Age of Reason, is a pamphlet on deism.

[Hannah C.]

Monroe, Madison...I don't know. The way I interpret, the argument behind separation of Church and State wasn't from an irreligious perspective. Rather, it was because the various denominations of Christian leadership were gunning for control of a State religion. The Chrisitanity of the majority of America wasn't questioned and, in fact, even seen as positive towards the continuance of a moral, virtuous society.

 

:iagree:

 

Madison actually held very modern ideas about religious freedom, but many of the people who supported the separation of church and state, as he did, did so because of highly religious reasons -- and they had *no* problem legislating morality.

 

(I wrote my senior thesis on whether America was a Christian nation, based on what the 13 original states' constitutions from 1776 to 1791 said about religion. This is based on what I found out while doing that research.)

[KatieH]

It seems like people just trade one myth for another. "The founding fathers were all fundamentalists Christians who hated all other religions" gets exchanged for "the founding fathers were all deists who hated Christianity." Take some quotes wildly out of context and ignore the social context of the time and you can make famous figures seem any way you'd like. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle of the extremes, and never so nice and neat. George Washington, for example, wasn't a strict Deist, nor was he an orthodox Christian. Some scholars have used the term theistic rationalist to describe his beliefs (or Christian deist, though I think the former seems more accurate). Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. He also despised slavery, called it the greatest of legal and moral evils, and authored an indictment against the British slave trade in the Declaration of Independence (that was, obviously, taken out, a fact which angered him). Real life is just never as simple as hindsight tries to make it.

[Spy Car]

It seems like people just trade one myth for another. "The founding fathers were all fundamentalists Christians who hated all other religions" gets exchanged for "the founding fathers were all deists who hated Christianity." Take some quotes wildly out of context and ignore the social context of the time and you can make famous figures seem any way you'd like. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle of the extremes, and never so nice and neat. George Washington, for example, wasn't a strict Deist, nor was he an orthodox Christian. Some scholars have used the term theistic rationalist to describe his beliefs (or Christian deist, though I think the former seems more accurate). Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. He also despised slavery, called it the greatest of legal and moral evils, and authored an indictment against the British slave trade in the Declaration of Independence (that was, obviously, taken out, a fact which angered him). Real life is just never as simple as hindsight tries to make it.

 

No one has suggested that all the Deist founders "hated" Christianity.

 

What is clear is that the first six American Presidents: Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, and J.Q. Adams were not Christians in any "orthodox" sense.

 

The US Constitution never mentions "God" or gods, and the Declaration (written by Deist Thomas Jefferson) speaks of the "laws of nature and of nature's god", words that reflect his Deistic (rather than Abrahamistic) conception of a creator.

 

Bill

[Shellydon]

I'll give you Jefferson and Franklin, for sure.

 

Paine was an atheist, I thought.

 

As for Washington and Adams, I can't imagine what, from their writings, would lead one to believe they wouldn't call themselves Christian.

 

Monroe, Madison...I don't know. The way I interpret, the argument behind separation of Church and State wasn't from an irreligious perspective. Rather, it was because the various denominations of Christian leadership were gunning for control of a State religion. The Chrisitanity of the majority of America wasn't questioned and, in fact, even seen as positive towards the continuance of a moral, virtuous society.

 

This is still a pretty short list of founding fathers. I think there were 55 signers of the Declaration, alone. :001_smile:

 

Obviously niether you nor I can get into the heads of the founders, but they did leave a pretty good volume of evidence pointing to their beliefs. I just want make the point that, in addition to the "myth" of our nation being founded on Christian principles, is another myth that "most" of the founders would not call themselves Christian.

 

Nicely put. We just read in our (secular) Thomas Jefferson book that Jefferson called for a day of fasting and prayer when Britain shut down the port in Boston following the Boston Tea party.

[Shellydon]

No one has suggested that all the Deist founders "hated" Christianity.

 

What is clear is that the first six American Presidents: Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, and J.Q. Adams were not Christians in any "orthodox" sense.

 

The US Constitution never mentions "God" or gods, and the Declaration (written by Deist Thomas Jefferson) speaks of the "laws of nature and of nature's god", words that reflect his Deistic (rather than Abrahamistic) conception of a creator.

 

Bill

 

IIRC, the Declaration says "Creator" and "Supreme Judge." I'd have to check to be completely sure.

[akmommy]

IIRC, the Declaration says "Creator" and "Supreme Judge." I'd have to check to be completely sure.

 

But it would be presumptuous to assume that that it was strictly the Christian god that was being referred to when using these words. Most of the founding fathers were deists of some sort, but clearly not all were Christians.

[Shellydon]

But it would be presumptuous to assume that that it was strictly the Christian god that was being referred to when using these words. Most of the founding fathers were deists of some sort, but clearly not all were Christians.

 

 

I don't think it is presumptuous. They all came from societies where the Christian God is the only one they knew. I also don't think it is clear that they weren't Christians. They may not have been devout Quakers or been invested in the trappings of many of the Christian denominations of the time, but that doesn't mean they believed that God completely bailed on the world after creating it.

[Mama Butterfly]

I strongly believe the majority of these guys were Deist. (And I was sooo relieved to hear the Priest state this himself at RC church I visited the other Sunday. )

 

To think they believed/behaved as the christian men of this day do, is a misunderstanding. IMO.

[Spy Car]

I don't think it is presumptuous. They all came from societies where the Christian God is the only one they knew.

 

You think they never heard of Zeus or Odin? Or seriously believe they were not aware of the non-Triune concept of God common to Jews and Muslims?

 

And are you are not ignoring the Deistic vision God that was common from the time of The Enlightenment and wide spread at the time of our founding?

 

Bill

[Tea Time]

Bingo. It's shockingly easy to commit atrocities when you don't believe the other people involved are truly people. I say this not just pointing a finger at others, but with tremendous shame about how I myself used to view people who simply had the misfortune of not yet being born. Having been there myself, I know how easy it is to let the sentiments and the seemingly rational arguments pervasive in your culture override your deeper God-given instincts about right and wrong. And even though I am a Christian now, I'm not immune to this apathy. Most of us in the US right now have so much wealth and comfort and privilege, while people in other countries, and sometimes even our own, have no clean water to drink and not enough food to eat. It's just so shockingly easy to not think about it and say "it's not my problem" or "there's nothing I can do about it" or "they're poor because they're lazy" or "I earned what's mine" and go on about our business. But is it any less heartless, or less Christian, than what the Founding Fathers did? No. And yet here I sit in my comfy suburban home, doing nothing about it, and calling myself a Christian.

 

:iagree:

 

I often wonder, when I read threads like this, what kind of horrible things future generations might think of those of us living right now (full of our own self righteousness). What terrible, moral atrocities are we committing that we are blissfully unaware of at the moment? What things are we doing that we know full well are immoral and yet we make excuses? Do you think they are minor? Beware! Your descendants might not think so! ;)

[pqr]

George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, and Thomas Paine were all Deists (not Christians). That is almost all the leading lights among America's founders.

 

Bill

 

 

Evidence please, not assertions, on Washington and Adams.....for a start.

 

I constantly read these claims, but would like to see solid evidence in the form of quotes and writings.

Edited February 8, 2011 by pqr

[akmommy]

I don't think it is presumptuous. They all came from societies where the Christian God is the only one they knew. I also don't think it is clear that they weren't Christians. They may not have been devout Quakers or been invested in the trappings of many of the Christian denominations of the time, but that doesn't mean they believed that God completely bailed on the world after creating it.

 

Really, your telling me that these men who by all accounts were very well read had no knowledge of creation stories or religion outside that of the Christian ones and never questioned it.

I myself am an agnostic theist and while the name for it might be fairly recent I don't think the idea itself is new at all.

[Shellydon]

You think they never heard of Zeus or Odin? Or seriously believe they were not aware of the non-Triune concept of God common to Jews and Muslims?

 

And are you are not ignoring the Deistic vision God that was common from the time of The Enlightenment and wide spread at the time of our founding?

 

Bill

 

 

What I am saying is they likely did not have a working knowledge and/or daily exposure to other religions. There wasn't a Muslim next door, like in my neighborhood.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Most of the leading lights of the American founding were not Christians, but rather were Deists, in any case.

 

Bill

 

George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, and Thomas Paine were all Deists (not Christians). That is almost all the leading lights among America's founders.

 

Bill

 

I don't think it is presumptuous. They all came from societies where the Christian God is the only one they knew. I also don't think it is clear that they weren't Christians. They may not have been devout Quakers or been invested in the trappings of many of the Christian denominations of the time, but that doesn't mean they believed that God completely bailed on the world after creating it.

 

Evidence please, not assertions, on Washington and Adams.....for a start.

 

I constantly read these claims, but would like to see solid evidence in the form of quotes and writings.

 

I'm not sure that one can say with no qualifications that all the Founding Fathers were Deists rather than Christians. That goes a bit far and like pqr I would like some evidence on some of those names.

 

Secondly, this is presupposing that Deism is, in every case, a rejection of Christianity. From what I have read of the Founding Fathers one could consider one's self Christian and still follow the principles of the Enlightenment. After all, many of the founding fathers were also Masons which brings yet another nuance to their view of of faith and government.

 

It would also be a fallacy to assume that the well-educated founding fathers knew nothing of religion other than Christianity. While they may not be as familiar with Eastern religions as we are today they certainly studied Greek and Roman history, often studied Hebrew, and would have been familiar with the Crusades and Holy Wars. They were well aware of other schools of thought. They probably had more knowledge of the ancient religions than we do today and Jefferson, at least to my understanding, had read the Koran, probably making him more knowledgeable than most today.

 

Furthermore, we seem to want to put men who lived over 200 hundred years ago into some neat boxes that suit our needs. We look to our modern and widely varied definitions of "Christian" and decide if they fit our current worldview. Odds are they won't, not even the world view of the faiths/denominations they were each raised in is completely the same today. We also want to believe that they were all deeply devout in practicing their faith. Why does that need to be true? Why can't they believe but be lax, questioning, occasional church goers? Which it seems from the records that remain many were.

 

I think it is in some cases our mistake to try and neatly label them and put them in simple boxes. I doubt they all neatly fit the boxes and labels we have set up for them. Furthermore, it surprises me that men who opposed a system of state religion would inform every governmental choice from the perspective of religion and defend it with religion. To assume to read their religious beliefs from their civil service would be silly.

 

But applying the principles of the Enlightenment to the system of government they began is just one aspect. Much of the system and laws were also based on the English legal system and on a Judeo-Christian ethic as I understand history. We can't pull out one influence just because it isn't the flavor de jour. Today we are so determined to be multicultural that we forget that wasn't always the way of the world. Many of those men that founded and fought for our nation's beginning were most decidedly Christian in at least the most simplistic sense. Many today would rather relabel these men with some alternative belief system so they can easily slip the bonds of the culture our nation developed from.

 

Yes-there were several who clearly accepted Deist principles. One can hardly argue with Jefferson, Franklin and Paine as subscribing to Deist beliefs. I have never read enough to know if they saw this belief as opposition to Christianity or as an outgrowth of Christianity.

 

I'd love to see some evidence on Washington and Adams in particular. From what I can tell Washington seems to be an active (if lax) member of the Anglican/Episcopal church and Adams seemed to be a practicing Congregationalist or Unitarian (I forget which just now).

Edited February 8, 2011 by JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst

[kokotg]

I'd love to see some evidence on Washington and Adams in particular. From what I can tell Washington seems to be an active (if lax) member of the Anglican/Episcopal church and Adams seemed to be a practicing Congregationalist or Unitarian (I forget which just now).

 

Adams was raised a Congregationalist, but was a practicing Unitarian as an adult (I'm fuzzy on details, but there was some sort of big Congregationalist/Unitarian feud going on at the time...you'll still see a Congregationalist and Unitarian church in many New England towns, both claiming to be the "first church"). As far as I can tell, most direct evidence of his personal religious convictions comes from his correspondence with Jefferson, in which he reveals himself to be a universalist:

 

Now, my friend, can Prophecies, or miracles convince You, or Me, that infinite Benevolence, Wisdom and Power, created and preserves, for a time, innumerable millions to make them miserable, forever, for his own Glory? Wretch! What is his Glory? Is he ambitious? does he want promotion? Is he vain? tickled with Adulation? Exulting and tryumphing in his Power and the Sweetness of his Vengeance? Pardon me, my Maker, for these Aweful Questions. My answer to them is always ready: I believe in no such Things. My Adoration of the Author of the Universe is too profound and too sincere. The Love of God and his Creation; delight, Joy, Tryumph, Exaltation in my own existence, tho' but an Atom, a molecule Organique, in the Universe, are my religion. Howl, Snarl, bite, Ye Calvinistick! Ye Athanasian Divines, if You will. Ye will say, I am no Christian: I say Ye are no Christians: and there the Account is ballanced. Yet I believe all the honest men among you, are Christians in my Sense of the Word.

 

Unitarianism rejected the divinity of Christ as well. It seems clear that Adams considered himself to be a Christian, but I think it's also clear that many of the people most anxious to count Adams and the other founders among the ranks of Christians would quickly reject the notion that his specific beliefs are compatible with Christianity.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

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