Paying for college...

[mommaduck]

but at some point you will need to actually attend. Do you know why? Because at some point the people who practiced those professions decided that they wanted to try to make sure that those who were going to be practicing the same profession in the future were socialized into having a similiar worldview, similar values, similar thinking. It can't be about standardizing knowledge, that can be done by developing an examination. It is about standardizing thinking.

 

 

 

Disagree

[creekland]

 

Haven't you ever wonder why a degree is necessary to find work in a particular field? If it were only the knowledge or skill that was necessary then why not simply suggest a course of study and have a test or a series of tests to demonstrate attainment of that knowledge? Sure you can test out of some basic classes these days but at some point you will need to actually attend. Do you know why? Because at some point the people who practiced those professions decided that they wanted to try to make sure that those who were going to be practicing the same profession in the future were socialized into having a similiar worldview, similar values, similar thinking. It can't be about standardizing knowledge, that can be done by developing an examination. It is about standardizing thinking.

 

 

 

Wow, I thoroughly disagree. I find FAR more open thinking and outside the box thinking from my fellow college grads than otherwise (which is not the same as saying either is 100% of the total of inside or outside).

[justamouse]

There is a disconnect but there are also levels of learning that I think college and other independent experiences help address. For example, my son is a seasoned traveler, but much of his travel has been done with his parents. When he was flying around the country visiting colleges on his own as a senior in high school, he had to learn to negotiate mass transit systems. He knew how buses and subways worked because he had been on them with his parents. But to land at O'Hare and figure out how to get to a friend's apartment via mass transit by himself--that was another level of learning.

 

Now obviously this is not a direct college experience, but I mention it as the sort of thing that college helps us learn.

 

My son has met a variety of people from around the world throughout his life. But now his roommate is Asian. Two other international students and his Jamaican RA live in his wing of the dorm. He learns more from rubbing elbows daily with these guys than what he would learn from a periodic encounter or even a classroom experience. It is a different level of learning.

 

Some people seek out a wide variety of experiences whatever their circumstances. Others stay in their comfort zones. It is not that college guarantees deep levels of learning on all fronts, but to me it offers easier access to a world of possibilities.

 

But Nan is correct--some people will just not see this because of their family culture.

 

Yup. This is what I see, too. And the difference is amazing.

 

Take, for instance, my father, a professional who never went to college (trade school) and refuses to leave the country and is almost xenophobic at this point. Although-forget almost.

 

Meanwhile we are planning Dds college around required semesters abroad.

 

 

Its not that it is independence vs affluence, it is just that I know some posters are going to point out that following the traditional path of going to college and looking for an employer is a more secure route to a livable income while starting one's own business is more risky. I just wanted to point out that we find the risk worth the potential price.

 

Haven't you ever wonder why a degree is necessary to find work in a particular field? If it were only the knowledge or skill that was necessary then why not simply suggest a course of study and have a test or a series of tests to demonstrate attainment of that knowledge? Sure you can test out of some basic classes these days but at some point you will need to actually attend. Do you know why? Because at some point the people who practiced those professions decided that they wanted to try to make sure that those who were going to be practicing the same profession in the future were socialized into having a similiar worldview, similar values, similar thinking. It can't be about standardizing knowledge, that can be done by developing an examination. It is about standardizing thinking.

 

This is why we don't feel that college is a necessary or even desirable progression for our children. Homeschooling is only the beginning, we want our kids to live their entire lives 'out of the box'.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree. And I own a small business (that employs 35 people). Dh's and my life has been making out of the box decisions.

[Nan in Mass]

Perhaps each family has different expectations for college. Some families overlap and some don't. GRIN And now I've generalized into meaninglessness. Two of my boys seized on a way to learn firsthand about other cultures and to travel long before college. They, since they homeschooled, are learning other things at college. Lots of other things, despite being able to take the subway across Tokyo, like how to be a good sport when somebody dumps a bucket of snow on your head in the shower with a video camera waiting LOL, and how to talk to girls, and something about organic chemistry. Could they have learned these things at home? Yes. If they could manage to learn how to take a subway on the other side of the world "from home", I'm sure they could have learned the other things, too. But I don't want them to. I want them to learn with a few enthusiastic peers from some enthusiastic profs. It is easier and more fun that way than wading through something like organic chemistry on their own. Besides, they wouldn't even get any organic chemistry, left to their own devices, just like my mother wouldn't have taken geology and my husband wouldn't have taken entemology if they hadn't had to have another science. Those things have enriched their lives.

 

There is another family culture difference. I can see how people who have struggled to receive their education view a richness in it that escapes those who are given their education, but there is also a special kind of richness that one gets from knowing that your father, too, wouldn't have survived the noise in the dorms without a good set of headphones, and from knowing that your grandmother also had nightmares about finding her classes. I'm not sure my children would have gone to college if they had had to fight hard for it. I doubt I would have. My mother would not have, nor my father. And yet, college was very valuable for us all, so valuable that we, as older adults, are very willing to struggle to find a way to send our children.

 

It is hard to explain.

-Nan

[creekland]

Perhaps each family has different expectations for college. Some families overlap and some don't. GRIN And now I've generalized into meaninglessness. ...

It is hard to explain.

-Nan

 

I agree that it's hard to explain in more ways than just your last point. It's why I was having trouble putting it into words pages ago.

 

What I think I'm come up with is that it's all these different experiences and expectations coming together at a good college make up the "that." It's not one thing, it's many.

 

One family can only do so much when it comes to experiences. Even if they are wealthy, they can't mimic the lessons a student raised in poverty brings to the table. There's so much that so many bring to college - and they share. It opens up far more than just academics, but then too, the profs bring in academics and can open up even more worlds beyond what was gleaned from family in that respect too.

 

I believe this is also why good colleges strive for diversity on their campuses (and I'm not meaning just racial - there's geographical, economic, individual likes/dislikes and experiences, etc). It's why a good college (by my definition anyway) doesn't just go for scores on tests - though that can be part of it.

 

It might be why I also consider a good 4 year school to have far more value than 2 years at a local cc, then 2 years at the 4 year school. (I also feel the academics differ, but that's a different issue.)

[Nan in Mass]

My whole extended family is pretty out-of-the-box. Conventional family wisdom says that college is where you are exposed to many other people and ideas outside your family and town, and where you learn to think more clearly, and that that thinking includes problem solving, and problem solving includes being aware of many approaches and solutions, and it makes a spiral of growth. A good college will encourage alternate ideas and multiple solutions and discussions, and encourage the thinking skills one needs to sift the good ideas from the ones that don't really work. I think this kind of thinking is hard to test by exam.

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

I think I see what you are saying. When that person who struggled so hard to be there meets that person who gets emails from his grandfather saying he flunked his first physics exam, too, and that he just needs to find a study partner, the two of them learn lots from each other.

-Nan

[mommaduck]

Nan, I think you are missing my point. I'm not speaking of expectations. I'm speaking of ability (particularly financial). We EXPECT our oldest to go to university. We don't have the ABILITY to give it to him. He will have to fight his way in and through. Do you see a difference? I believe though, that by the time he is through, he will have a certain amount of appreciation for the hard work (both academically AND FINANCIALLY) he personally put into it.

[Jane in NC]

Its not that it is independence vs affluence, it is just that I know some posters are going to point out that following the traditional path of going to college and looking for an employer is a more secure route to a livable income while starting one's own business is more risky. I just wanted to point out that we find the risk worth the potential price.

 

Haven't you ever wonder why a degree is necessary to find work in a particular field? If it were only the knowledge or skill that was necessary then why not simply suggest a course of study and have a test or a series of tests to demonstrate attainment of that knowledge? Sure you can test out of some basic classes these days but at some point you will need to actually attend. Do you know why? Because at some point the people who practiced those professions decided that they wanted to try to make sure that those who were going to be practicing the same profession in the future were socialized into having a similiar worldview, similar values, similar thinking. It can't be about standardizing knowledge, that can be done by developing an examination. It is about standardizing thinking.

 

This is why we don't feel that college is a necessary or even desirable progression for our children. Homeschooling is only the beginning, we want our kids to live their entire lives 'out of the box'.

 

Isn't it interesting how a discussion on paying for college is evolving into a discussion on the value of college?

 

A couple of comments on Rainefox's posts: In an earlier message, you mentioned joining the military over college. The military, for young recruits, is all about similar worldviews, values and thinking that you disparage in your perception of college. This puzzles me.

 

Secondly, most of the successful entrepreneurs that I know (and by this I mean not the people who sell Pampered Chef or have another part time home business on the side) have degrees! This includes an MD/PhD who has several medical patents, my CPA, engineers with consulting businesses, etc. Even my brother in law the welder (who owns his business) has an associate's degree.

 

My husband works in a field in which only people with degrees are considered for employment. Yet no one walks in knowing how to do the job because the computer systems on which they work are so specific to the industry. New employees require a year of on the job training before they have a handle on what happens in the job. Engineering, computer science and information systems degrees give a background on which additional knowledge is constructed. Once this highly technical background is developed, then people may go out on their own in a consulting position. But without industry specific knowledge, no contractor (that entrepreneur who owns his own business) is getting a foot in the door.

 

Nan, I do agree with you about family culture, but it also proves my point about college being a "right" (or rite of passage) vs something that is fought for. There are those that have had to fight tooth and nail just to get to college (due to socio-economics, family culture, etc) and then fight tooth and nail to get through college. I do believe that there is a different type of appreciation these people have for it once through than those that it's simply expected or "handed to" in a sense. Not that those that go due to family culture don't appreciate it or don't work as hard, but rather that the appreciation is different. The expectation isn't taken for granted, kwim?

 

btw, I'm very much FOR college. I don't agree with the past assessment of a pp that it's "independence vs affluence".

 

I am the first person on my father's side of the family to graduate from college. I was blessed with financial aid and merit aid--trust me, I appreciated every penny. But I also think that my best friend appreciated her education which was paid for by her parents. (Her parents were so sweet---they'd leave sacks of garden produce for the starving students!) I see what Nan is saying--there is a family culture which develops appreciation for knowledge.

 

By the way, I applaud you, Mommaduck, for rising above the challenges you faced.

 

Jane

[jld]

 

By the way, I applaud you, Mommaduck, for rising above the challenges you faced.

 

Jane

 

:iagree:

 

I think people who pay their own way through school, especially paying as they go, and not with loans, earn respect for doing so. Honestly, though, I wish they didn't need to. I really wish we valued education and the development of our people so much that we, as a nation, subsidized it. I realize this is a minority opinion.

[mommaduck]

I

A couple of comments on Rainefox's posts: In an earlier message, you mentioned joining the military over college. The military, for young recruits, is all about similar worldviews, values and thinking that you disparage in your perception of college. This puzzles me.

 

This puzzles me also. In fact, it makes absolutely no sense. I was raised in the military (mother, father, stepfather, all my grandfathers) and my husband was military (and my brother and an aunt). In basic training they tear you down psychologically so they can "rebuild" you mentally. There is a certain "programming" they do to you. They want you all to think the way they want you to think. Goodness, the military is more aggressive about this than any college I know of. At least in college, diversity of thought is somewhat appreciated (yes, I know some colleges only want "liberal" thinkers and some colleges only want "conservative" thinkers, but it's still different)...in the military, you can hang all of that up...you BELONG to Uncle Sam, mind and body.

 

 

I am the first person on my father's side of the family to graduate from college. I was blessed with financial aid and merit aid--trust me, I appreciated every penny. But I also think that my best friend appreciated her education which was paid for by her parents. (Her parents were so sweet---they'd leave sacks of garden produce for the starving students!) I see what Nan is saying--there is a family culture which develops appreciation for knowledge.

 

By the way, I applaud you, Mommaduck, for rising above the challenges you faced.

 

Jane

I do see what you are saying. Again, I'm not saying they don't appreciate it, but I do believe that there is a different kind of appreciation, kwim?

[Nan in Mass]

I'm sorry! I got distracted by Creekland's and Rainefox's posts. So going back to yours, are you saying that there is a special sort of appreciation to be gained by having to work hard to pay for continuing your family's educational tradition? I'm sure that is true. I also think there is a special sort of appreciation that comes of having it contributed for by one's parents' friends and one's relatives putting money aside when one is born, or from (as in Heather's case) one's family making a great sacrifice to send one. And especially when one has all three and even more. And when, as Creekland pointed out, all the various combinations compare when they get to college, good growth happens (hopefully). My pre-med friend's story of having to deal with his entire extended family following him from Florida to Massachusetts when he came to college certainly made me think twice about my own situation. (It was a close extended family, unfamiliar with college. My friend, a veteran, picked a college far from Florida because he wanted to move them all out of Florida where they were struggling in a high crime area. He knew that if he moved, they would follow because unlike in my family, college didn't seem like a short-term thing to them, something you go and come back from.) Have I still not understood? I'm sorry I got distracted by the out-of-the-box thread and abandonned you. I agree with you, which is why I went off. : )

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

How to pay for college often seems to turn into should one pay for college here. I agree that it is puzzling.

[mommaduck]

I'm sorry! I got distracted by Creekland's and Rainefox's posts. So going back to yours, are you saying that there is a special sort of appreciation to be gained by having to work hard to pay for continuing your family's educational tradition?

 

I think this is where we've gotten lost. I was not speaking of "continuing a family's educational tradition". I'm only speaking of one being able to go to college to start with (expecting your parents to pay for it vs fighting/working/earning scholarships/etc to pay for it). The former is usually BECAUSE it's a "family tradition"...therefore the family can usually pay for their child's college and the child actually expects it. The latter are usually people that are from lower rungs on the socio-economic ladder. Generally they are the first or one of the few to go to college. Or their parents weren't able to go to college themselves until after their children were grown. They may have had to fight through bad homes, bad neighbourhoods, an impoverished country, or simply just a family that has too much physical labour just to keep their heads above water and there is no extra for college. So yes, I do believe there is a special sort of appreciation by those have succeeded in getting through college in the latter group.

[Nan in Mass]

I'm sure there is. And I'm sure there are students (we know a few) who take altogether too much for granted. Hopefully they will talk to each other and learn from each other. I wish the world were different and anyone who wanted to try college could, and anyone who wanted to stay could. Life isn't fair.

 

-Nan

[mommaduck]

I'm sure there is. And I'm sure there are students (we know a few) who take altogether too much for granted. Hopefully they will talk to each other and learn from each other. I wish the world were different and anyone who wanted to try college could, and anyone who wanted to stay could. Life isn't fair.

 

-Nan

 

True and very much agree. I like that there is such diversity in colleges. So many perspectives to learn from.

[Jane in NC]

I'm sure there is. And I'm sure there are students (we know a few) who take altogether too much for granted. Hopefully they will talk to each other and learn from each other. I wish the world were different and anyone who wanted to try college could, and anyone who wanted to stay could. Life isn't fair.

 

-Nan

 

True and very much agree. I like that there is such diversity in colleges. So many perspectives to learn from.

 

My son, the first year college student, obviously is not intimately acquainted with everyone's finances, but he has commented on how most of his friends are receiving merit aid (his college is particularly generous with this), many must have on-campus jobs, how his friends are acutely aware of parental sacrifices being made... Having said that, he also told me with derision about the boy who vandalized something on campus and then said, "They can't throw me out. My grandfather paid for the Such and Such Building." Needless to say, my son and his friends want nothing to do with the arrogant twerp.

 

I am glad that my son's school is not only generous with merit aid but with grant funds for travel opportunities. It is one thing for a parent or student to fund tuition and books. Traveling overseas for further studies is another thing altogether!

 

And now I deftly ;) bring this thread back to where it began. How to pay for college? Search for schools with healthy endowments!

 

:D

Edited February 10, 2011 by Jane in NC

[Nan in Mass]

We have been told over and over again not to discount the expensive private colleges because many of them offer enough aid to make them competative with state schools.

-Nan

[Kathy in Richmond]

We have been told over and over again not to discount the expensive private colleges because many of them offer enough aid to make them competitive with state schools.

-Nan

 

:iagree: Exactly true here. My kids' expensive colleges gave us enough need-based aid to make them (much) more affordable than the Virginia state schools that also accepted them.

[justamouse]

 

There is another family culture difference. I can see how people who have struggled to receive their education view a richness in it that escapes those who are given their education, but there is also a special kind of richness that one gets from knowing that your father, too, wouldn't have survived the noise in the dorms without a good set of headphones, and from knowing that your grandmother also had nightmares about finding her classes. I'm not sure my children would have gone to college if they had had to fight hard for it. I doubt I would have. My mother would not have, nor my father. And yet, college was very valuable for us all, so valuable that we, as older adults, are very willing to struggle to find a way to send our children.

 

It is hard to explain.

-Nan

 

My whole extended family is pretty out-of-the-box. Conventional family wisdom says that college is where you are exposed to many other people and ideas outside your family and town, and where you learn to think more clearly, and that that thinking includes problem solving, and problem solving includes being aware of many approaches and solutions, and it makes a spiral of growth. A good college will encourage alternate ideas and multiple solutions and discussions, and encourage the thinking skills one needs to sift the good ideas from the ones that don't really work. I think this kind of thinking is hard to test by exam.

-Nan

 

What you wrote here dovetails into Colleges That Change Lives. It's why all of my kids will be going. All. (if mine were trade bent, I would be satisfied with that, too, but they're all academically inclined). Dd 16 will graduate with her cosmo license, spend 6 weeks at a Paul Mitchell school and she knows that she will be attending college. There is no option. She needs the buffet.

 

We have been told over and over again not to discount the expensive private colleges because many of them offer enough aid to make them competative with state schools.

-Nan

 

I have heard this from many people whose kids graduated from great schools that gave them more $ than the sate schools. I hope it will still be true in two years.

[Tullia]

It is confusing, and it's not too soon to be thinking about the question. There are so many options and you've already had some good advice. One thing we've discovered is that membership in academic honor societies sometimes opens the door to merit aid, so once your child is enrolled in college and receives an invitation to apply they need to be aware that an invitation isn't junk mail. Parents are the last to be notified of anything these days, so the student needs to be proactive about searching out possibilities.

 

One thing I've found to be consistent over time and across a lot of different options is that good students who are perceived as being capable of making a positive contribution to a school are in demand and there are many ways schools are willing to help financially. Jane mentioned endowments which are always good. Financial aid can take the form of being offered a job as a lab assistant or tutor. The key is that no one will come to you--you and your student need to do research and fill out applications.

 

I think the earlier advice to take the PSAT seriously is excellent. We know two New Mexico students who were finalists and it has been a great opportunity for them. I'd back up a bit more and say that doing whatever it takes to help a student develop enthusiasm and high standards will put them in a position to take advantage of opportunities. I worried a lot about whether or not it would be possible for ds to do well without "teaching to the test" and have decided that using a classical paradigm will be more than adequate. However, for the PSAT the sequence of math does matter so my advice is to find curricula that works for you and do your best to work at a pace that works at or ahead of the usual PSAT math sequence expectations.

 

Most people who aren't from either extreme financially draw on several different sources to pay for college. Savings, gifts from family starting at birth or a very young age (instead of toys and clothes), merit aid, part time jobs (on-campus jobs tend to be the least disruptive to studying), and even loans if the amount doesn't exceed a reasonable expectation for repayment.

 

One thing about family gifts...offering gifts for a child's college fund is a given in my family, but we did have a couple of folks who preferred to give clothes and toys. So, I looked on those situations as opportunities to save money I'd have otherwise spent on clothes.

[jld]

However, for the PSAT the sequence of math does matter so my advice is to find curricula that works for you and do your best to work at a pace that works at or ahead of the usual PSAT math sequence expectations.

 

 

Great tip, and one I wish I had known earlier.;)

[Nan in Mass]

Agreeing. We've cobbled together at least five kinds of money. It doesn't all come from one place. Colleges have monthly payment plans, too, which we've taken advantage of some years.

-Nan

-Nan

[Guest lifefeedsonlife]

Personally - the older I get, the more ludicrous the idea of paying someone (who's only career may actually have been an academician) to put letters after someone's name becomes. Our society has become nearly subsumed in the idea of academic (or bureaucratic) credentialing - and to what good purpose?

 

I'll post the following links again for perusal regarding the efficacy of education at a college level.

 

Literacy of College Graduates is on Decline

 

First Two Years of College Show Small Gains

 

So - a lot of kids whose parents can't afford to pay for their 'higher' education go into to debt for - - - ? Put it this way, is a class on Intro to Philosophy wherein you you get textbook snippets actually better than reading Nietzche, Kant and Schopenauer themselves? It may lend itself to a dialectic discussion of the authors, but one doesn't necessarily need to PAY for that to occur. One could do that in a local coffee shop.

 

I'm of the opinion that schooling and education are not one in the same - as I'm sure many folks on here are as well.

 

And getting back to the idea of College as a socialization experience . . . mmmm - I don't know. The anomie experienced by some of the folks I'd met there was ratcheted up quite a bit as their primary support group (i.e. family) wasn't around.

 

Besides - the drugs in college weren't all that much better than the ones in high school - but the parties were generally bigger.

[Tarreymere]

Isn't it interesting how a discussion on paying for college is evolving into a discussion on the value of college?

 

A couple of comments on Rainefox's posts: In an earlier message, you mentioned joining the military over college. The military, for young recruits, is all about similar worldviews, values and thinking that you disparage in your perception of college. This puzzles me.

 

Secondly, most of the successful entrepreneurs that I know (and by this I mean not the people who sell Pampered Chef or have another part time home business on the side) have degrees! This includes an MD/PhD who has several medical patents, my CPA, engineers with consulting businesses, etc. Even my brother in law the welder (who owns his business) has an associate's degree.

 

My husband works in a field in which only people with degrees are considered for employment. Yet no one walks in knowing how to do the job because the computer systems on which they work are so specific to the industry. New employees require a year of on the job training before they have a handle on what happens in the job. Engineering, computer science and information systems degrees give a background on which additional knowledge is constructed. Once this highly technical background is developed, then people may go out on their own in a consulting position. But without industry specific knowledge, no contractor (that entrepreneur who owns his own business) is getting a foot in the door.

 

 

 

I am the first person on my father's side of the family to graduate from college. I was blessed with financial aid and merit aid--trust me, I appreciated every penny. But I also think that my best friend appreciated her education which was paid for by her parents. (Her parents were so sweet---they'd leave sacks of garden produce for the starving students!) I see what Nan is saying--there is a family culture which develops appreciation for knowledge.

 

By the way, I applaud you, Mommaduck, for rising above the challenges you faced.

 

Jane

 

 

Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Michael Dell are three of the biggest and most successful names in technology and also three of the folks who left college as a waste of time. They didn't feel they needed years of degrees and industry experience, they each revoluntionized their industry and were wildly successful. And that is just in the highly technical, highly specialized computer industry.

 

Couple that with the numerous articles linked here on the WTM forums about the decline in literacy and learning on campus...........

[creekland]

Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Michael Dell are three of the biggest and most successful names in technology and also three of the folks who left college as a waste of time. They didn't feel they needed years of degrees and industry experience, they each revoluntionized their industry and were wildly successful. And that is just in the highly technical, highly specialized computer industry.

 

Couple that with the numerous articles linked here on the WTM forums about the decline in literacy and learning on campus...........

 

You name three from across the US, none of whom I know personally. I can name more than three just from my circle of friends/acquaintances who have returned to college because they have hit a ceiling in their jobs due to not having a degree. Actually, right off the top of my mind, I could name six.

 

I can probably find the name of three lottery winners too, but I certainly don't recommend that anyone count on winning the lottery to pay for their adult lives. If one does win the lottery, more power to them!

 

In the articles you reference about lack of learning and decline in literacy, while they may be true, it's a fallacy to then throw out the whole college education due to the effects on SOME of the students. It's better to recognize what could happen and be certain to aim higher. That's what we do with homeschooling. That's what I'm doing with my youngest who is now in ps due to his choice. I can easily say my college freshman knows more academically now than he did when he left home.

 

There are drugs in high school. There are drugs in college. There are drugs in the workplace. There are drugs in life. It never means one has to partake of them. I never did - nor did my friends - in any of the above places. I know of some that did/do in all of the above.

[Nan in Mass]

It isn't so much that we all don't think one can be successful without college. It is more a matter of college being the place our families want to send our children learn these things. Nobody is trying to tell you that you have to send your children to college if you don't want to. Honestly. : )

-Nan

[Guest lifefeedsonlife]

I didn't mean to imply that drugs are bad though . . . in fact, many of them were more educational than some of the classes I was taking . . .

 

Just sayin'.

[creekland]

It isn't so much that we all don't think one can be successful without college. It is more a matter of college being the place our families want to send our children learn these things. Nobody is trying to tell you that you have to send your children to college if you don't want to. Honestly. : )

-Nan

 

:iagree:

[creekland]

I didn't mean to imply that drugs are bad though . . . in fact, many of them were more educational than some of the classes I was taking . . .

 

Just sayin'.

 

To each their own.

[Hoggirl]

Goodness this thread has digressed! The original question was about how to pay for college, not the "worth" of college.

 

Here is my short answer: save, save, save! Planning to pay for college is no different than planning to pay for anything else. We have been saving for college for our son since he was born. We do only have one ds. I fully intend to pay for 100% of my child's education as long as he maintains what I deem to be adequate academic performance and doesn't change his major four or five times. You have to determine what you are willing to do as a parent and then you have to come up with a plan to get there. No child has the "right" to have his/her college education paid for by his/her parents. But, we want to do this for our son. If we had a very large family, I am sure this would not be doable. I think you have to decide what you are willing/capable of contributing and present this to your child/children. As an example, my husband's parents were willing to pay 100% of his costs for a state university, but they made it clear to him if he wanted to go elsewhere, he would have to figure out a way to make up the difference.

 

One must plan, plan, plan financially. You roughly know when the need will be there. Obviously, there are many unknowns and the differences in costs can be extreme. My goal is to raise X amount of dollars which will cover a certain amount/type/length of school depending on the track my ds chooses to take. Some of that will be up to him. Depending on where he goes he may have enough to go to a state school and then graduate school. Or he may only have enough to go to a private school for an undergraduate degree. Sure, I am hopeful he will get merit aid, but I refuse to depend on that.

 

So, how does one pay for college? By planning and saving. Or by telling your kids they will be on their own. Or by telling your kids what you will be willing to do and they will be responsible for the rest. Sorry if that comes across as harsh, but that's my $0.02.

[Hot Lava Mama]

clear in my original post?? :001_huh:

 

We have been saving since the kids were born. But not in a "college savings plan" per se. Just investments. I was looking at the different "calculators" for paying for college, and it seems like we are punished for saving. If we didn't do anything, we could get a full ride because we wouldn't have "enough assets". But, since we have been living like we are in poverty so that we can have money for the future (ours and the kids college), we are expected to pay the full cost. That means my kids will go to a less prestigious college since we have to pay the full ride. I guess I don't think that someone should necessarily pay for MY kids, but why are we punished for saving and having assets, while others are rewarded for living paycheck to paycheck?

 

There have been very good suggestions, as well as thought provoking comments!

Thanks everyone!

Hot Lava Mama

[Nan in Mass]

Are you sure about that full-ride-if-you-hadn't-saved-anything part? We saved too, and people have told us the same thing, but I always wondered how much it was true - a little or a lot? Would you really get a full ride scholarship or would it just be easier to get low-interest loans or would it just lower your expected family contribution? It seems like lots of things work like this (will social security by the time we get there?), but I'm not sure in the long run that it really is a sound policy to bank on it.

-Nan

[Hoggirl]

clear in my original post?? :001_huh:

 

We have been saving since the kids were born. But not in a "college savings plan" per se. Just investments. I was looking at the different "calculators" for paying for college, and it seems like we are punished for saving. If we didn't do anything, we could get a full ride because we wouldn't have "enough assets". But, since we have been living like we are in poverty so that we can have money for the future (ours and the kids college), we are expected to pay the full cost. That means my kids will go to a less prestigious college since we have to pay the full ride. I guess I don't think that someone should necessarily pay for MY kids, but why are we punished for saving and having assets, while others are rewarded for living paycheck to paycheck?

 

There have been very good suggestions, as well as thought provoking comments!

Thanks everyone!

Hot Lava Mama

 

The idea that one is "punished" for being responsible. I guess the same can be said for those who continue to pay on a mortgage that is under water. There are probably other examples as well. But, I see what you mean...especially if folks spend $$$ on consumables.

 

We have utilized a 529 plan, though only recently. I cannot recall why we didn't start out this way. Seems like they changed the rules at some point??? At any rate, you might check this out.

[Jane in NC]

clear in my original post?? :001_huh:

 

We have been saving since the kids were born. But not in a "college savings plan" per se. Just investments. I was looking at the different "calculators" for paying for college, and it seems like we are punished for saving. If we didn't do anything, we could get a full ride because we wouldn't have "enough assets". But, since we have been living like we are in poverty so that we can have money for the future (ours and the kids college), we are expected to pay the full cost. That means my kids will go to a less prestigious college since we have to pay the full ride. I guess I don't think that someone should necessarily pay for MY kids, but why are we punished for saving and having assets, while others are rewarded for living paycheck to paycheck?

 

There have been very good suggestions, as well as thought provoking comments!

Thanks everyone!

Hot Lava Mama

 

Well FAFSA considers assets but there is an assumption that parents have been saving for college--which is why the EFC (Expected Family Contribution) is often as high as it is for people with few assets. I'm not sure that parsimonious parents are punished. Perhaps they are on the Profile which includes the value of the parent's home and retirement savings. (FAFSA does not consider these, but some colleges ask for more information.)

 

Our goal is for my son to graduate without debt. Most financial aid packages include loans--even those supposed "full rides".

[Storm Bay]

My middle one is going to start trying for scholarships now. I have learned of some open to dc as young as 12 (her age) and a few even younger. Some even younger. I found it on a link from my eldest's ps. My eldest is going to start taking the Univ of Waterloo math tests (the one in grade 12 can lead to a large scholarship if you have applied there) and is going to look into volunteer work that can lead to scholarships. She refuses to write essays for scholarships at this point, but I'm hoping she'll become more reasonable about it by her Junior year. One of the ones she is going to write an essay for is a heritage one, and if she doesn't win, she can write a new essay next year (there are 4 age categories and 5 prizes). The Haiku one is simly an open constst From the harold G. Henderson Awards for best unpublished Haiku. She'll entere the free one and the one at $1 per entry (she'll do 2 entries, and we'll each pay for one), but not the more expensive ones. Those prizes are small, but it can all add up.

 

Our income has always been enough to live on and not enough to save for college. It's gone up quite a bit from when we were married, but so have our expenses and we pay for all of our med insurance in an expensive state. My kids hope to find jobs, but it's very difficult around here right now.

Edited February 12, 2011 by Karin

[distancia]

I have not read through all the posts due to the digression, but to get back on track, it would be helpful for you, the OP, to tell us (and you may have already told us way back there, but it would be helpful for you to say it again)...

 

What state do you live in?

 

Also--

 

Then too, that piece of paper will be incredibly useful for future job opportunities.

 

Don't I know it. My niece was researching jobs with airlines and now they are asking for a COLLEGE DEGREE for a flight attendant.

Edited February 12, 2011 by distancia

[Storm Bay]

Its not that it is independence vs affluence, it is just that I know some posters are going to point out that following the traditional path of going to college and looking for an employer is a more secure route to a livable income while starting one's own business is more risky. I just wanted to point out that we find the risk worth the potential price.

. It is about standardizing thinking.

 

This is why we don't feel that college is a necessary or even desirable progression for our children. Homeschooling is only the beginning, we want our kids to live their entire lives 'out of the box'.

 

While I did notice distinct biases in university, I notice it also in the media and other places. I think that there are many boxes, not just one, and that people merely put themselves in their own boxes. I have found that there are many ways that people limit their thinking, not just whichever standardized thinking some professors and even schools have. There are different kinds of university out there, which is where good research comes in handy.

 

One of the chief goals we have had in homeschooling is teach our dc how to think for themselves. If they are strong in this area they can ought to be able to handle whatever types of thinking others may try to steer them toward. I found my university experience helped release me from standardized thinking because I had the tools of how to think and question, and while I sometimes walked into a course thinking the way the professor did, I often walked out thinking something much different. There are some jobs in our society where you have to have that degree to get a job (eg dentist) and to be licenced. Should we be afraid of letting our dc go to university because we don't think that after 18 years of learning outside the box (which isn't what all homeschoolers do) that they have the ability to critique what they are being taught?

 

Personally - the older I get, the more ludicrous the idea of paying someone (who's only career may actually have been an academician) to put letters after someone's name becomes. Our society has become nearly subsumed in the idea of academic (or bureaucratic) credentialing - and to what good purpose?

 

I'll post the following links again for perusal regarding the efficacy of education at a college level.

 

Literacy of College Graduates is on Decline

 

First Two Years of College Show Small Gains

 

And getting back to the idea of College as a socialization experience . . . mmmm - I don't know. The anomie experienced by some of the folks I'd met there was ratcheted up quite a bit as their primary support group (i.e. family) wasn't around.

 

Besides - the drugs in college weren't all that much better than the ones in high school - but the parties were generally bigger.

 

I think that the one of the reasons the literacy is on the decline is because more people who aren't interested in being literate are going. I have met many literate people who have never gone to college; the two don't go hand in hand.

 

As for the socialization issue, I think thats a mixed bag. I don't think that living in college dorms is the best socialization experience, but having lived off campus during my first degree I have to say that it was great to meet other intelligent people with my interests (not that everyone who goes is intelligent.) I have never been a fan of the dorm life.

[Hot Lava Mama]

are looking into possibly moving if it would be helpful in regards to "in-state" tuition.

Thanks

Hot Lava Mama