Question about ds6

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I am trying not to get frustrated... trying my hardest. Really truly am.

 

 

 

Anyways Im lost. How do I teach him his numbers? We have fuzzy jumbo dice, tally sticks, MUS, Horizons math, c-rods, base 10 blocks, two colored counters, number flash cards, a numbers song and I think I own about every other manipulative out there except an abacus and the math card games that come with RightStart. I am planning on getting Right Start A when we have the money. He JUST learned how to count to 11... but does not recognize numbers other than 1 and 2. Well, this week he seems to only be able to count to 8 again :001_huh:

 

Im lost. Im worried. I dont know what to do. If you ask him what 2+2 or 4+4 is he can tell you (he knows doubles to 4) other than that, thats it. Im lost. He is 6 1/2. I am waiting for a call about an eval for him but until then Im lost. Any tips?

[Dobela]

Look up Calendar activities like teachers use in preschool and some early elementary classes. I don't have time to explain them now, but the daily repition of the numbers and patterns really helped my son learn his numbers more than anything else.

[PeterPan]

Wrangler, are you thinking he has a developmental delay? Does he problem seem limited to one area or across the board? It seems to me (having no experience) if his processing is delayed to the point where he's 6 and a 1/2 and can't count consistently to 11, it's unlikely he's going to be doing skills that build on that soon (written addition, etc.). I would wait for the evaluation and not worry about trying to teach him or make him fit a curriculum until then. Clearly he's not going to. Is there something he does WELL or a modality or thing he enjoys? Can you use that to do things with him that are more preschoolish and generally fun, mildly educational, and just wait to see what happens? He's 6 1/2. Maybe he's a K5er with a fall birthday?

 

I know that's not helpful to you, except that I wanted to speak a word of peace to you. Whatever he is he is, and bucking against it isn't going to help. You'll find out soon enough. Can EI come and at least do some screening and get you started sooner? That would at least give you some answers while you wait for openings with the private people. Do things that make for peace. Do things he enjoys and is good at. If he likes books on tape or coloring or mazes or playing with trucks, whatever it is, do that. Stretch it just a little bit to include some educational concepts. You'll find out soon enough what it is. Make for peace in the meantime.

[chiguirre]

I've been through lots of similar frustration with ds10. It's frightening, but it's not something I can actually fix. I find it helps to think about dd's academic success whenever I start to doubt my ability as a teacher.

 

Now, on a more practical level, I would not buy RS A if MUS Primer has not helped your ds learn his numbers and counting. RS moves much faster than MUS and since it uses a lot of different manipulatives, it can be harder for a kid with issues to get a grip on. MUS blocks are always the same, so a child doesn't have to think about the manipulative and can concentrate on the concept being presented.

 

You didn't mention your ds's reading skills, but you're in a very different place if he knows no letters and sounds versus being able to blend cvc words consistently. If he's okay with reading, it's more likely that you're dealing with a math-specific disability that might be helped by a special needs math curriculum. If your ds is struggling with letters and numbers, it's more likely that he's intellectually disabled and you will have to back up and work through preschool skills with him until he's ready to move on.

 

Another thing to consider is that he may be very delayed in typical academic skills and still be able to learn a lot of history, science, geography and literature from read-alouds, books on tape and dvds. You don't have to keep those at a preschool level if he shows interest.

 

ETA: I read your blog. If MFW K is going well, I'd keep going with that. I'd back up in MUS and make sure he's retaining the skills from the beginning of the year. I've done this MANY times with ds. In fact, he never writes in the MUS workbook, I always copy the problems to a white board or drawing paper with colored pencils so that we can back up again or hang out if we need to. I hope you can get your evaluation done quickly and that it gives you some idea of where to go with your ds.

Edited February 3, 2011 by chiguirre

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

Ok trying to remember the questions..

 

I honestly do not know if he is "behind" in other areas. Is he behind where my dd's were at his age? Absolutely. Boys are different though so where do I draw the line of him being an ADHD boy vs. behind? Thats my problem. He turned 6 October 1

 

 

Ok- He did not talk until 2years 7 1/2 months old. Does he act like most 6 year old I know, no. He seems to be "younger" than them. He still does not pronounce certain sounds well (th is F, he says together like togever, then there are other sounds he says incorrectly based on the word- but other words are fine, kwim?) We got a Wii and Wii Fit for the kids for Christmas (their only present because dh was unemployed and we bought it 2 months before his job moved) and he does not do the "games" as well as his 4 year old brother (granted ds4 will be 5 Feb 18, they are 16 months apart) Ds 4 always wins, weather its a balance game, an aerobic game, a strengh training game, or any of the other extras there are.

 

Ds 4 is not ADHD either. So how big of a difference will that really make?

 

MUS works, but in different ways. He can do simple (very simple, answers less than 10) orally- some, not all. If I show him the MUS blocks he can give me an answer if its less than 10. Its when its written he just does not understand. He can not look at a number and tell me what it is, but he can look at a MUS block and tell me its value. He can look at the position of a number and tell me if its a 10's or unit (place value) but he can not tell me how many 10's or units when looking at the number in the position (make sense?) Example He can look at the number 32 and I will ask him what number is in the 10's place and he will point to the 3. I will ask him what number that is and he will say I dont know-- or he will just say a number like 6, or 8 or something. Then I will say 3 is in the 10's place, there are 3 tens. Then I will ask him what number is in the units place and he will point to it. He knows 1 and 2 but thats it but he never says them unless I ask what they are then he has to study it for a minute.

 

He is not reading. He knows most of his letters and most of their sounds. Blending is just not there. We got to blending in Phonics Pathways and it was pulling teeth. He would tell me the sounds of each individual letter then I would help him blend and he would not do it. That is when we ditched PP and started with MFW. PP was to many tears. I still have it so maybe later on we can re-visit it. I figured I would start him from the beginning with sounds again then maybe the second time it would click. For science I just read stories to him about the topic of the week in MFW. Have not even touched history. Don't care to until the phonics and numbers get better.

 

Handwriting is just not working either. I started having him practice on the white board and I guess its looking semi better but not like he should. We are working on M this week and he does a curvy thing similar a sideways S, but continues to make the 2 humps of an M.

 

He does really good with cutting and pasting, but again ds 4 cuts on lines much better than ds6.

 

I do love MFW. I do plan to stick with them. He likes them and I have been able to better ad multisensory to certain activities to help him a bit more. We just started this the beginning of Jan, we are in Lesson 2, Moon, right now.

Edited February 3, 2011 by wy_kid_wrangler04

[PeterPan]

Wrangler, I'm sorry I ought to remember, but did your ds6 get speech therapy? Expressive language problems and apraxia (late talking due to motor control problems), dyspraxia (motor control problems in the rest of the body), developmental delays, etc. are so intertwined. It might be he has a fuzz of each. I'm saying it might not be so linear. He might be able to interact with language on the auditory side or visually but not on the OUTPUT/expressive side. That's what I wonder if I hear you saying. Speech therapy can work on that. It's not too late either. You can have a child who LOOKS like a certain set of problems but who unfolds into something very different once you can get the expressive side to work. I'm just wondering if that's part of your mix, given thatn he's a late talker and is still pointing.

 

Did you do sign? I would get some of the Signing Time videos and work through them with him. Start at 1 and just work forward through the set. Then use the signs to bridge. For instance use *sign* during your math time, so he can get beyond pointing. That way you can tell if the problem is he doesn't KNOW or can't EXPRESS verbally. There is a difference.

 

Not all children sound out to read. He may not be there yet for a lot of reasons. What you could do is get a picture dictionary and do some whole word reading with him. This isn't saying you're doing whole word forever or will never teach him letter sounds and syllabification. It's just the idea that right now some whole words might open up things for him. I got a nifty word dictionary from the Little Giant Steps people at the convention last year. Ds is asleep on my lap, but I'll go get the title later. You can practice reading the words under the pictures. It will be extremely good for his expressive language. Yllek has had posts on things her ds' SLP is doing for expressive language, and that's one of them, just plain putting words to pictures. So whether he gives a word for the picture, hears you say the word and tries to understand it, or reads the word (all of which could happen with this book), he's doing himself good.

 

Try using the numbers signed and see how that helps. They actually modify signs for kids with gross motor delays. I've talked with people whose dc are in an apraxia school program that does that. So it's ok if he can't do them PERFECTLY. The idea is giving him another way to communicate and seeing what he can do when he doesn't have the limitation of talking.

[chiguirre]

With your further post, I wonder if you've had his vision checked. Could his close vision be so bad that he literally can't tell a 3 from a 6 but can see 2 black squiggles and knows the left one is the tens place? Usually regular vision and hearing checks are included in school district evaluations, so they'll do them for you.

 

Other than that less than enlightened insight, you'll have to wait for your evaluation. Just as a head's up, my ds was a bit further along than that at 6.5 and he's moderately mentally impaired, so you might need to steel yourself for the evaluation reports. OTOH, my ds has continued to chug along and bit by bit he's becoming more competent at basic skills, but it's a long, hard and often discouraging slog.

 

:grouphug:

[Dobela]

With your further post, I wonder if you've had his vision checked. Could his close vision be so bad that he literally can't tell a 3 from a 6 but can see 2 black squiggles and knows the left one is the tens place? Usually regular vision and hearing checks are included in school district evaluations, so they'll do them for you.

 

Other than that less than enlightened insight, you'll have to wait for your evaluation. Just as a head's up, my ds was a bit further along than that at 6.5 and he's moderately mentally impaired, so you might need to steel yourself for the evaluation reports. OTOH, my ds has continued to chug along and bit by bit he's becoming more competent at basic skills, but it's a long, hard and often discouraging slog.

 

:grouphug:

I agree with having his vision checked. Have you been to www.covd.org? I would look at their signs and symptoms page. It was truely enlightening to me. My son's fine motor skills improved greatly once we were on the right track for his vision. I also highly recommend using an optometrist that is certified to do vision therapy. I had 2 'regular' vision specialst tell me that my son didn't have any vision problems when he actually did. I don't recommend the screenings that schools use for vision and hearing. Many many children pass those who actually have vision and hearing problems. When you seek referrals foe evals, ask for a referral to a qualified speech therapy center or an ENT that can do a complete hearing eval.

 

In the meantime, just take a deep breath. I know that frustration. I was there. You can only do what you can do. Just try to solidify what he does know and not worry about what he doesn't know at this point. Try to make the learning as fun as you can. Once he has completed all the evals I would make more decisions from there.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

Wrangler, I'm sorry I ought to remember, but did your ds6 get speech therapy? Expressive language problems and apraxia (late talking due to motor control problems), dyspraxia (motor control problems in the rest of the body), developmental delays, etc. are so intertwined. It might be he has a fuzz of each. I'm saying it might not be so linear. He might be able to interact with language on the auditory side or visually but not on the OUTPUT/expressive side. That's what I wonder if I hear you saying. Speech therapy can work on that. It's not too late either. You can have a child who LOOKS like a certain set of problems but who unfolds into something very different once you can get the expressive side to work. I'm just wondering if that's part of your mix, given thatn he's a late talker and is still pointing.

 

Did you do sign? I would get some of the Signing Time videos and work through them with him. Start at 1 and just work forward through the set. Then use the signs to bridge. For instance use *sign* during your math time, so he can get beyond pointing. That way you can tell if the problem is he doesn't KNOW or can't EXPRESS verbally. There is a difference.

 

Not all children sound out to read. He may not be there yet for a lot of reasons. What you could do is get a picture dictionary and do some whole word reading with him. This isn't saying you're doing whole word forever or will never teach him letter sounds and syllabification. It's just the idea that right now some whole words might open up things for him. I got a nifty word dictionary from the Little Giant Steps people at the convention last year. Ds is asleep on my lap, but I'll go get the title later. You can practice reading the words under the pictures. It will be extremely good for his expressive language. Yllek has had posts on things her ds' SLP is doing for expressive language, and that's one of them, just plain putting words to pictures. So whether he gives a word for the picture, hears you say the word and tries to understand it, or reads the word (all of which could happen with this book), he's doing himself good.

 

Try using the numbers signed and see how that helps. They actually modify signs for kids with gross motor delays. I've talked with people whose dc are in an apraxia school program that does that. So it's ok if he can't do them PERFECTLY. The idea is giving him another way to communicate and seeing what he can do when he doesn't have the limitation of talking.

 

 

He was in speech therapy. We discontinued it because the therapist was not a "kids" person. She was very short tempered and well, mean. We might get that started back up again though.

 

I did not teach him sign but I love your suggestion and will start that. Until we can buy a program our library has a decent one.

 

I really want to thank you. You have been such a wealth of info for me :001_smile: Even when I think I have been so frustrated and frazzled I keep asking the same things in different ways :lol: :001_huh:

[rafiki]

.

[Terabith]

Have you had him evaluated through the public schools? That might give you some place to start with.

[PeterPan]

Can you get a different speech therapist? That one sounds horrible! And the bummer is, she probably didn't know how to help him, exacerbating her frustration and curtness, kwim? You could contact the people at the PROMPT Instititute http://www.promptinstitute.org and see if there's anyone near you. Even if you don't think you want PROMPT, the person might be able to connect you to someone who could evaluate for the language processing. Or maybe the person doing the evaluation you have scheduled (neuropsych? something overall?) would have someone to point you to if they find that as an issue. I'm just saying less sessions with someone who has a clue and can teach you how to help him at home will be better than more sessions with someone who isn't helpful. The more therapy things I've done, the more I've become convinced there's a lot we can do at home if the people would just show us how. Sometimes they get so professional, they think they're the only ones who can do things. It's nice when you can find someone who will work with you like that, especially if you have to drive a long way to them or are busy with other kids and can't be running to tons of appts a week.

[siloam]

My 8yo has the same sort of recall problems with letters. When he was 6 he did so with numbers as well, but they were never as much of an issue as letters. Now he has his consonants down but is all over the place with his vowels.

 

What I did with RS, was to play the games a lot. You could use a 3x5 card, cut it in half and write the numbers on them. Just make about 10 of each number. He played a lot of war, where you turn over two cards and add them up. The person with the most wins all the cards in play, then the person with the most cards overall wins the whole game. My ds played with just the numbers 0-2 for a long time. Then slowly I added the rest. It probably took a year or more to get to where he could add in 9. RS also has a bunch of memory games where you work on seeing quantities. I played those a ton so he would learn to see quantities. BTW RS focuses not on finding the match but two that add up to 10. You can buy the cards used for those games here, without buying the whole RS package. Also you can buy the games now if you want. If you use the RS program they list the game instructions in the TM's for A and B. You actually don't buy the game manual till level C, as part of the add on kit there. In C and above they just refer you to the game manual.

 

If my ds was having recall problems with numbers, I would do for him what I do with letters. Make a set of flash cards.

 

1. Say the number, have them repeat it after you (this gives them the change to remember the number, but is no big deal if they don't).

 

2. Show them the number and again say its name, and have the child repeat it after you.

 

3. Put the card down, have the child write the number in sand while saying the sound (now you can use a white board, or salt instead, but sand is fun).

 

4. Have the child look at what they have written and say the sounds again.

 

5. Have the child close their eyes and try to see the number in their mind and say the sound again.

 

At first it is a tediously long process but once the child knows it you can actually go through it quickly.

 

For handwriting I use sand a lot. It takes much less fine motor control but allows you to work on correct letter formation. I also make up sand letter cards and have them trace them, because it again requires less control but works on letter formation. You could probably make these with puff fabric paint.

 

The only concern I would have with MUS, is does it refer to the quantity a lot by color? I personally would eliminate all color references. For a dyslexic that is another step to retrieving the information, and I personally couldn't remember the right quantity to color correlation even through I used Miquon for 2 years. I know the MUS rods are much better, being they are notched, so I think you can still make it work, just eliminate the need to use the color references.

 

Heather