Jump to content

Menu

Is it too late to start the WTM in 11th grade?


Recommended Posts

Hi all,

First a little background: I have been homeschooling for 7 years now. My oldest is graduating this spring and I will have my dd and ds left in the nest. Lately I have been drawn back to the WTM. I am planning on the WTM approach to science with my ds (7th grade) next school year. My dd (10th grade) has expressed an interest in mythology and Greek history. The issue is that she needs to take US History for her homeschool diploma in PA. So I figured we would just do Greek history and mythology as electives. The more I reread the WTM I want to try history and the Great Books by this method. So I have a couple of questions.

 

First would it be too much to try the Great Books approach with the Greek history while doing American history with Notgrass Exploring America?

 

Second question: Is it too late? She has decided she wants to major in English at college. I would like her to have the opportunity to get her feet wet with a Great Books study before she gets to college.

 

Third: Could we wait on American history till her senior year and pull in government with it?

 

Fourth: What does the WTM history/literature look like in your homeschool for HS?

 

I am really nervous about doing a great books study but feel that nudge to do it. I am sorry if I am rambling..... I am just unsure about this and I guess I really won't know till we try. :001_unsure:

 

Thanks so much!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First would it be too much to try the Great Books approach with the Greek history while doing American history with Notgrass Exploring America?

 

 

Yes, it can be done, and no it's not necessarily too much -- *depending* on what else overall you're doing. For example, when our DSs were 8th & 9th grades, we did the ancients for history and a WTM-style ancients Lit. AND we did LLftLotR:

- 1 credit History (Spielvogel Human Odyssey, plus other resources)

- 1 credit English (LLftLotR as the Lit. portion of English, along with writing and grammar)

- 1 credit elective -- "Classic Ancient Literature" (8 works of ancients Lit.)

 

 

 

 

Second question: Is it too late? She has decided she wants to major in English at college. I would like her to have the opportunity to get her feet wet with a Great Books study before she gets to college.

 

 

JMO, but I don't think it's ever too late.

 

What about jumping in and doing a Great Books study starting with where your are -- American History/American Lit? A Great Books study is more about the method of reading/analyzing through integrating history, source documents, and understanding of the culture in which the works were written.

 

While chronological history study is helpful, it's not an absolute "must" -- it would be extremely tough to get through 4000+ years of "the Great Conversation" of a Great Books Study in 2 years! ;) (Hopefully, none of us think we're going to complete it 4 years of high school -- or even in a lifetime! It's about starting a life-long lifestyle of learning.)

 

There are loads of classic American works DD could get started with this year, and you could span almost 400 years of works. That's pretty sizeable!

 

 

 

Third: Could we wait on American history till her senior year and pull in government with it?

 

 

Unless that makes the senior year too burdensome, no problem. We did Amer. History and Government simultaneously last year (gr. 10 and 11) and it worked great -- they really complimented each other VERY well. (Actually, I don't quite get why more people don't do these together...)

 

 

 

Fourth: What does the WTM history/literature look like in your homeschool for HS?

 

Again, not a WTM purist or a WTM expert here, but here's what our WTM history/literature looked like last year:

 

American History (1 credit)

- Notgrass American History (read aloud and discussed together)

- a few additional source document essays and works (or excerpts) from the Norton Anthology of American Literature

- a few research papers

 

Government (0.5 credit)

- Great Source American Government textbook (did first 12 chapters)

- read Uncle Eric book: "Are You Liberal, Conservative, or Confused"

- used portions of a few other resources

- participated in statewide Youth & Government program (mock legislative program)

 

American Literature (1.0 credit)

- selected our own list of lit. (did not use the Notgrass selections) (read aloud and discussed together)

- read background info on the author, their times, and the work

- used some lit. guides; Sparknotes online free lit. guides; Wikipedia online; and other resources to springboard discussion and analysis

- did some literature responses, from a short paragraph, to 3-5 paragraphs, to 1-2 several-page-long literary analysis essays (did NOT write about every single work)

 

 

 

I'd suggest reading through some past threads on doing a Great Books study (see links below). Read through the first few chapters of The Well Educated Mind for ideas on reading classic literature and questions to ask yourself. Jot down the main things DD wants to get out a Great Books Study -- and jot down the list of books YOU think would be the "must reads" and the books SHE thinks would be the must reads. Consider not matching up the history and lit. in order to cover your/her priorities, or to best prepare for going into studying English Lit. in college. You can still do a Great Books study even if it *doesn't* match your history, by doing some background research on the author, work and the times to help understand the context of the piece of literature.

 

And -- ENJOY your Great Books journey! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

[What is a] Great Books Study/WTM

What are the benefits of doing a Great Books Study?

Does anyone do high school history/lit ala WTM/WEM

Questions about how you do literature

If you make your own literature course

Before I reinvent the wheel [specific post on setting up a WTM history/lit. study]

Where would you start with a [student] who has never read classic lit

How to study literature?

TWEM

Realistic Use of WEM [for a Great Books study]

Nan in Mass et.al. [a thread on using The Well Educated Mind for Great Books study]

What are your favorite literature guides?

Great Books study (a past post with links to some GREAT previous threads on various aspects this topic)

Edited by Lori D.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You might be better of taking a look at The Well Educated Mind and working with that method for a study of the great books.

 

For high school we've used the recommended reading from The Well Educated mind along with SWB's The History of the ... World. Obviously, for U.S. history and goverment you'd have to use another resource since the next in the series hasn't come out yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think so.

To me, the main point of TWTM is to teach students the skills they will need to teach themselves and to keep educating themselves the whole rest of their lives. It is a sort of "how to learn anything" approach. It seems to me that the last two years of high school are a perfect time to focus on putting everything they have learned together, bringing academic skills up to adult level, and showing them how to teach themselves whatever they decide they need to know. This means making sure that they have the math skills they need, making sure they can read and digest an adult level trade or text book, communicate what they know to other people, learn a skill (practice LOL), know how a language works (any language), understand how scientific knowledge is built, know enough history to give current events perspective, and know how the world works (government, people, etc.). It is also a great time to help them figure out what they want to keep learning and at what level - hobbies, interests, careers, etc. So practically speaking, you work on study skills like outlining and mapping, writing, grammar if you haven't done it before (the structure of a language), vocabulary if you need to, eating an elephant (breaking down a large task), finding and organizing your materials, taking notes, reading at different levels (skimming, deep reading, etc.), getting an overview of various world organizations, what is already known, history and civilizations, exploring interests, and other things like that. It is also a good time to some foundational reading, to read some of the great books, since those have influenced the western world for ages. TWEM can help with that. Even some of us who have done a lot of TWTM are having to do this the last two years of high school, as we "finish off" our children. They are finally old enough to see the big picture and to read more difficult things. An older student can learn academic skills much faster than a younger one. It won't take nearly as long to explain something like outlining to an older teen compared to explaining it to a ten year old. I would just make sure that my child knew the purpose behind what we were doing. I would start Latin and great books and academic skills like outlining, but I would make sure that they knew exactly why they were doing each thing. I would have a list of goals and skills (mostly skills at this stage) and work carefully towards those goals, not just dump the child into TWTM recs for 11th grade. A lot can be accomplished in two years, if you know where you are going and don't wander around too much. I also think it is important not to try to add this on top of a regular school load. Do one or the other or a mix but don't try to do all of TWTM way and then back it up "just in case" with a non-WTM education. I think you will wind up not able to get far enough in either to make it worthwhile if you try to have your cake and eat it too.

Just a few thoughts...

-Nan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

. I would start Latin and great books and academic skills like outlining, but I would make sure that they knew exactly why they were doing each thing. I would have a list of goals and skills (mostly skills at this stage) and work carefully towards those goals, not just dump the child into TWTM recs for 11th grade. A lot can be accomplished in two years, if you know where you are going and don't wander around too much. I also think it is important not to try to add this on top of a regular school load. Do one or the other or a mix but don't try to do all of TWTM way and then back it up "just in case" with a non-WTM education. I think you will wind up not able to get far enough in either to make it worthwhile if you try to have your cake and eat it too.

Just a few thoughts...

-Nan

 

I agree with everything Nan said, but this part especially.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would consider doing a year of Ancients now, and then doing Am Hist next year--as Lori said, covering Government and Am Hist together is an excellent idea. First covering ancient history would give backround into the rise of democracy, and then your child would have a great foundation to study the similarities and differences in modern and ancient gov't.

 

We started homeschooling with our 9th grade son, so I needed extra help in doing Great Books--we used Omnibus. It might be worth looking at for you. I'd add in some more lit analysis via Spark Notes or something similar, but it's a good intro. He read Theban Trilogy, Odyssey, some Bible, some Suetonius, some Plutarch--you could look at the lists at VP and see what floats your boat. Only Omni 1 was out (not Omni 4, which is also Ancients) when we started-- some of the approach and questions/assignments really are more logic stage, even tho the books are easily Rhetoric stage, but it worked well for us, just getting our feet wet.

 

We used Idiot's Guide to Am Gov't as recommended in WTM, and incorporated several primary documents, to make a pretty solid one semester gov't course. My son had also served as a page in the VA State Senate, so he had some gov't backround and experience, and didn't really need a ton of indepth stuff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We did Idiot's Guide and primary doc's (the things labeled "foundation documents" in TWTM) for government, too. And my children peacewalked and watched lots of adults trying to change the world both via their governments and via grassroots (peaceful grassroots, not violent grassroots - lots of food for discussion there). We also did ancients. I think this is a fantastic idea for a truly worthwhile two year sequence that would get you lots of the benefits of a TWTM education without trying to cram all four years into two.

-Nan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow! Thanks so much ladies for the food for thought. This is what I originally planned for 11th grade with my dd:

 

Algebra 2

Chemistry

American History (Notgrass)

American Lit

French 2

Comparative Religions (a class at our co-op)

Writing the Novel Way (a class at our co-op)

Mythology and Greek History (her choices)

 

Now I just feel pulled in a totally different direction.

 

Nan I love your thoughts. I do want her to be prepared for college. I totally understand what you are saying about not "dumping her into the TWTM recs". We have some work to go before we would be ready for that level of work. Should I back up to the logic stage guidlines and start there? I really like the Latin idea as well. I think she would do fine with Latin and French but she seemed unsure. What Latin should I start with at the 11th grade level? I do not want to overwhelm her because she would hate it. I am looking at a more with less approach.

 

Lori I really appreciate your post and links. I went through them this morning and printed out 15 pages of information. I have so much to digest and read through. I just purchased "How to Read a Book" and "How to Read Literature Like a Professor". I can't wait for them to come.

 

Chris I have looked at Omnibus and want to see the book "in person". I am going to check it out at convention this year. I am going to talk with my dd today about whether we should wait to do American History and lit. You make a great point about understanding democracy.

 

Still confused about the direction we should take..... Although maybe after talking with my dd I will have a less muddy picture..... There is a part of me that really wants to change directions but then another part that just says stick with what you've been doing. I guess I am seeing that this homeschool journey is soon coming to an end and I don't want to look back and say "What if.....". :001_unsure:

 

Thanks for listening and helping!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would like to add a recommendation for A Rulebook for Argument. It is a quarter inch thick book that covers logic and writing an argumentative/persuasive paper. Short and to the point.

 

So you could do (just to give you some ideas):

 

Ancients/TWEM then Foundational Documents/TWEM (call this history and literature and government)

 

Academic Skills: (call this English)

some grammar (if you haven't done it)

some outlining/dictation/narration

some study skills

A Rulebook for Argument

writing other sorts of papers

research

 

Foreign Language

 

Science (with a heavy emphasis on building academic skills and building science skills)

 

Math

 

Independent project (whatever the student choses to explore, with an emphasis on research, teaching oneself something, organizational and notetaking skills, eating an elephant, and presenting one's knowledge to an audience)

 

That would be seven credits each year. The independent project can be multiple projects, each worth a fraction of a credit, depending on how long they took. Do a Shakespeare play or a few poems as a break somewhere during each year, when you get tired or need osmething that will fit in a small space before Christmas break or something.

 

Just to give you some ideas...

-Nan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would try to figure out which skills she has and which she doesn't. The logic stage US history reading list is nice. My children did that plus read a spine for a US History credit. We picked one book from each period to read; we didn't read the whole thing. I would work on narration, dictation, and outlining. How to Read a Book should help you to see how to teach her to tackle different sorts of books? I haven't looked at it but I have done quite a lot of reading about this which has been very helpful. I have found that we need to tackle different sorts of books different sorts of ways and that unless it is light historical fiction or something like that, we are better off not just sitting down and reading it through right away from the beginning. That is a completely impractical way to tackle textbooks, for my slow-reading, likely to miss the forest for the trees, memory like a sieve family.

I'm not sure what to recommend for Latin. We did Ecce Roman 1+2 and it was perfect for us, but I had already done the Greek by the same prof in college and the two programs worked the same way. It is also expensive.

I think it is really important to back up to wherever your student is and go forward from there, but I think you have to be careful about using younger materials. They may move too slowly. I think you are better off reading things yourself, figuring out how to do them, and then condensing them to teach your student rather than handing the materials to your student to do themselves. I think it is more efficient for this age. Either that, or find materials that are meant for an older student, like review or remedial stuff. I don't think it is as easy as backing up and using TWTM logic recs.

 

I wouldn't hesitate to do TWEM. I did ancients the first time round with a 5th grader and a 9th grader for whom any sort of academic skills was very difficult, and it went fine! It was fantastic, in fact. TWEM adapts itself to whatever level you are. That is the beauty of the program. If your student has trouble understanding what is going on when they read the ancients, then English grammar and vocabulary should help - English grammar because it will help with the problem of picking meaning out of sentences with an unusual word order. Outlining helps a student learn to pick out the most important points out of a paragraph and recognize the details as details (important for understanding and taking notes). Narration does the same thing and makes the student digest knowledge and make it their own. Dictation makes the student put together and use all the spelling and punctuation rules, and builds listening skills (important for taking lecture notes). If you put those together with different sorts of reading, Cornell note-taking, some textbook skills, how to memorize things, and some organizational skills, you do a pretty good job of covering study skills.

 

I just spent a month deciding what I want to do with my 10th grader for the rest of his home education so this all sounds very familiar GRIN.

 

HTH

-Nan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Nan..... I really appreciate this discussion.

 

Now I really know I need to change things up. I was just working on economics with my HS senior. The question we were discussing was how the principles the American patriots stood for were similar to what Adam Smith discussed in his book "Wealth of Nations". My dd looked at me like I was talking Greek. She could not remember what the principles the patriots stood for were. Ughh....... I made a comment about textbook learning and she said that she really didn't remember much from her Notgrass American history text. Now my dd (10th) is using Notgrass World history right now. I am really concerned. I know she is not challenged by it at all. Most of the lesson questions are answered with one or two words. And it's not because she is being lazy. I just want to toss the textbook right now and delve into something else. She has just finished reading about the Reformation.

 

Oh what to do.... I don't want to waste any more time.

 

As far as Latin goes, I was thinking along the lines of Henle. I was considering starting my ds on it next year. He has done several years of Latin with Memoria Press and CAP.

 

I am seriously going to evaluate her skills and see what we need to firm up. I need to make a plan. At this moment I am feeling very deflated. I really feel I let my oldest down. I don't want to make the same mistakes with the other two.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know. I am trying so hard to get it right with the third. I definately got some things wrong with the older two. I have tried to reflect the most important points of what I learned in the posts in this thread. Out of everything, though, the wrongest thing I did was send the oldest to public high school. That gives me a certain fearlessness. Nothing I do can possibly be worse than that. Sigh. I completely understand where you are coming from. If it is any comfort, ít isn't a bad thing to learn how to deal with a textbook. My middle one just got a C- in his ocean science class because he didn't have enough experience learning how to deal with them, and I am spending this very snowy day (my husband is shoveling our roof!) practising dealing with them myself so I know how to teach my youngest better textbook skills. On the other hand, he just got an A (again) on his Humanities II paper comparing two of Rembrant's self-portraits. That is the result of TWTM part of his education. Part of TWTM is reading through a history spine. The Notgrass course covers that, which will be convenient. You just will have to review it.

 

-Nan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought of one more thing I meant to add about how TWTM teaches one to teach oneself anything. Each subject varies a bit, but the general WTM way of learning something is to pick a spine, read the spine, outline it or take notes or find examples elsewhere, explore the things that interest you from each chapter by doing extra reading or research, and do some sort of project or paper at the end. With this approach, you can tackle any subject. You use the spine as an overview and as a guide to what else to explore and read about. I would make sure that my student understood this process and could apply it to something they wanted to learn about. I would probably use the independent projects to let them try it for themselves.

-nan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We are definitely going to start with the TWTM methods. I know one skill she really lacks is reading and summarizing. I am going to try to develop this skill in the next month. As you said in your previous post she should be able to learn this skill fairly quickly. Then we will move to outlining and writing from that outline. I think I am going to stick with the Notgrass World History even though neither of us are liking it. I think it is basic enough that she won't be overwhelmed while learning these new skills. I also think she will retain more than by answering the 10 simple questions at the end of each lesson.

 

She has expressed an interest in working as an editor some day. I think we will use the summarizing and writing from an outline as opportunities to explore sentence structures, vocabulary, and grammar and punctuation. I am starting to see how we can make all this work together instead of doing separate, compartmentalized subjects. :001_smile:

 

Your guidance and giving me things to think about are invaluable. I can't tell you enough how I appreciate it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...