Are You Religious But Still Consider Your Homeschool Secular?

[....]

I like to give my kids a good foundation, but I think their "worldview" will be based on their experiences as they go through life - not the spelling curriculum they used in 3rd grade. I'm not looking for schoolbooks to do that for them.

 

It would be kinda cool if there was a Lutheran homeschool curriculum, though. :lol:

[BBG580]

I would not say that we're "secular" home schoolers. Our home is Catholic, our lives are Catholic, our education is Catholic. I would never use materials that are anti-Catholic, for example. And if I were sending the kids to school I would not send them to a non-Catholic school (or even a Catholic school that wasn't doctrinally sound or that didn't have only faithful Catholic teachers) except in very extreme circumstances (even Newman speaks about when those circumstances are acceptable).

 

 

 

I think a good, solid Catholic school is hard to find. I've looked and found none that met my criteria for a rigorous education as well as offering acceptable catechesis. My home is also decidedly Catholic, my life is lived as an ardent lover of Jesus and my will is in following Him and His teachings through my actions in my daily life and my participation in the Sacraments of our Church. Hopefully "show" vs. "tell" will matter more to my children in the long run, if that makes sense. They will each go through CCD at our parish and that will be the backbone of their catechesis.

 

I am a Catholic convert and I am adherent to the CCC. Most Christian homeschooling materials I've found seem a little sunshine and rainbows to me, obviously I am just basing this on viewing the occasional sample so I could be off. And I still strongly believe that the best education a child can receive requires them to be independent thinkers, have the ability to synthesize and process all sorts of information and beliefs and be able to come out on the other side with either knowing the factual information that is necessary or being able to form an opinion based on sound reasoning. I desperately want my children to be active, practicing Catholics as adults - I just don't want them to be rote practicing Catholics, I want them to think it through and accept the theology or not.

 

I am using ToG which is decidedly NOT Catholic but once again, if we homeschool through the Dialectic and Rhetoric years and choose to use ToG all the way through I can see the Church History portions of the curriculum giving me a jumping off place for thorough discussions about Christian history and the Protestant Reformation.

Edited February 2, 2011 by BBG580

[elegantlion]

I edited a bit. :lol:

 

I don't think any Christian would be truly secular but when we apply the word I usually mean in regard to science in particular.

 

I do find that some of the Christian curriculem is not actually fact based. I have a deep love of history and when things are twisted or misinterpreted to satisfy an agenda, even if I happen to be on the same side religiously as that agenda it isn't something that I feel I can present to my child as worthy of them. I only want my child exposed to the truth, if it doesn't always say what I want then that is something for us to learn from, not to gloss over.

 

:iagree: I had originally thought I wanted to use a christian based history. I couldn't find one that fit my needs.

 

 

If the history we are presenting is not actually fact based, whether it is labeled "christian" or not, it is not really honoring to God, is it ?

I hope to give my child lessons in history which are correct, but since I am not a historian myself I often wonder if what I am presenting is really reliable or not. So I do the best I can.

But I will say I especially do not trust some of the "history" I've read that makes all of the founding fathers and other early Americans sound like perfect saints. It certainly does appear to be written to fit an agenda rather than truthfully tell the story of history.

 

The bolded part is part of the issue, everyone has a differing view of the facts. Check out the thread on Martin Luther if you'd like to read a current debate. History and history texts are fraught with bias. I found that in many texts and it has become a debate on this board more than once. Whose bias do you want to teach? Christian publishers run the gamut on denominational ties, books with agendas (revisionist history). Do you want to teach Western Civ only or will you teach world history? Will you teach your children Eastern history and discuss Eastern religions? We're doing Asian history this year and I didn't want to teach my son about Buddha and Confucius from a christian perspective, I wanted him to learn those facts from a non-biased source.

 

ETA: We are christians but I would consider us secular homeschoolers.

Edited February 2, 2011 by elegantlion

[KatieH]

I admit to being perplexed at the repulsion some Christians express over religious education materials. It seems to really fall into the "God is just for Sundays" mindset, and I don't understand it. I'm not saying that I think math worksheets need to have scripture on them, but what's wrong with learning to spell religious words like "scapular" or "baptism?" What's wrong with a solidly scientific science program that also mentions God or references scripture, when appropriate? I think the science aspect bothers me the most, because it seems to send a very clear message that God and science can't coexist, and I don't think that's true. Dh and I are both very strong believers in accurate science, but I don't see why that means God has to be completely divorced from the subject. I agree that some programs are too cutesy and dumbed down, but it seems like some people are saying that even if they otherwise loved a curriculum, they would avoid it if it mentioned God, and I'm not understanding why. Don't mean any of that offensively, of course.

[Veritaserum]

Do you care to share what "you" mean by secular ? I think that secular is a term that is used in a variety of ways.

 

To me, secular, in the context of "we prefer to use secular materials", means that the text/program is written without preference for a particular religious perspective. Secular materials are more concerned with presenting recorded and observable facts. Materials that attempt to present information through a lens of "Biblical truth" are unusable for us because my interpretation of the Bible is different from most Christian publishers.

 

For example, many science programs written from a Christian perspective treat all elements of the creation story in Genesis as literal fact while I see the story as an allegory. YEC science materials do not (IMO) teach solid scientific facts, so I will not use them to teach science to my children. I want them to learn about the very old earth and the evolutionary processes that lead us to where we are today. I still believe God created the world and the life upon it, but it appears (scientific observations) that he did it over a long period of time using evolutionary processes. :)

[Veritaserum]

I admit to being perplexed at the repulsion some Christians express over religious education materials. It seems to really fall into the "God is just for Sundays" mindset, and I don't understand it. I'm not saying that I think math worksheets need to have scripture on them, but what's wrong with learning to spell religious words like "scapular" or "baptism?" What's wrong with a solidly scientific science program that also mentions God or references scripture, when appropriate? I think the science aspect bothers me the most, because it seems to send a very clear message that God and science can't coexist, and I don't think that's true. Dh and I are both very strong believers in accurate science, but I don't see why that means God has to be completely divorced from the subject. I agree that some programs are too cutesy and dumbed down, but it seems like some people are saying that even if they otherwise loved a curriculum, they would avoid it if it mentioned God, and I'm not understanding why. Don't mean any of that offensively, of course.

 

I can't trust a science program that mentions God because that usually means it is written from a YEC or anti-evolution perspective. I don't have a problem talking about God's involvement with whatever, but I have a big problem with distorting or omitting aspects of current scientific theory in order to fit a literal interpretation of Genesis. For me (and I've spent a lot of time reading stuff written by YEC), a literal interpretation of Genesis is incompatible with accurate science. That is why I prefer secular science materials. I can easily add God into our discussions. I can't easily correct scientific material.

[FaithManor]

KatieH,

 

I think you misunderstand many of us and I think it offensive to say the Christians who do not use Christian curriculums are "God on Sunday only people."

 

In our home, we have found very few Christian curriculums that have met our standards for rigorousness. Additionally, we are of Arminian background and slightly EO leaning so therefore, most curriculums PUSH a theology that we do not believe and therefore, we would spend a lot of time supplementing a, by our standards - not making judgments about others standards - sub-par curriculum in addition to counteracting a theological bent we do not believe. That's pretty time consuming and inefficient for us. We actually use secular science up to 7th grade because we have not found a Christian curriculum that meets our standards for rigorous science study for young children and we are a VERY science oriented household. But, we actually use Apologia Science for high school because we have found Dr. Wile to teach applied science and the math, whereas, except for college materials, many many secular curriculums are VERY LIGHT in this regard. It is just so important that a high school student have excellent explanations of balancing equations in chemistry, doing conversions, etc. and Dr. Wile does a good job. Secular curriculums tend to teach to achievement tests and that means mostly vocabulary memorization and skipping the concepts that can't be covered on a multiple choice, timed test.

 

Since nearly all homeschool materials have been generated by Anabaptist and Calvinist or Reformed publishing houses, the agenda permeates the history texts in particular and of course, we can't use the Bible curriculums.

 

As stated above, we look for unbiased history, or as unbiased as we can get. I have NEVER found this in a Christian curriculum. Yet, from 1st-4th grade, I used Rod and Staff for English Grammar and diagramming - a decidedly Christian curriculum, and Rod and Staff Math supplemented with Singapore Math from 1st-5th grade. Many of us stated that our curriculum and personal library is a mixture based on what we've found that has worked best for each child.

 

Just because your fellow Christians find that secular materials work best for them, I think it's a pretty big judgment to refer to us as "Sunday only" Christians.

 

Faith

[dirty ethel rackham]

You are describing ME! Most of our curriculum materials are secular. When I first started homeschooling, I investigated many support groups around me (support groups, not co-ops.) The Christian group didn't want me as a member (a la their SOF designed to keep Catholics out), and I found I had nothing in common with the Catholic homeschoolers, who all wanted to use school-in-a-box Catholic curriculum and homeschooled because the Catholic schools weren't Catholic enough for their taste. I found a home at the non-sectarian group, which included religious Christians of every flavor, Jewish, Muslim and non-religious people. Our lives are richer for this. I have made friends for life among this group of women!

 

My children do take religious education from our parish and I work at home to reinforce that in our daily living. Plus, I add what I can from my own studies (Bible studies, books I read about Church history, etc.)

[Jayne J]

It is getting a bit hot in here, but I'll chance it...:D

 

Our *home* is Christian. We study the Bible, attend church, discuss religion/God/spirituality with our children. We pray together and memorize Scripture, etc.

 

Because we do all of the above, our school materials can be "secular" and our children still understand that God is behind everything. Math is *beautiful*. Evolution is elegant. (we are definately Old Earth/evolution believing Christians.) So I don't need a math book inserting "religion" where is already so obvious. (Two Saints each convert 3 godless heathens. How many God-fearing Christians do we have altogether?:lol:)

It is redundant. The only overtly Christian material we use in Prima Latina.

The specifically Christian science materials send me screaming.

 

I also absolutely agree with FaithManor in regards to history and Bible programs:

 

"Since nearly all homeschool materials have been generated by Anabaptist and Calvinist or Reformed publishing houses, the agenda permeates the history texts in particular and of course, we can't use the Bible curriculums."

[BBG580]

I admit to being perplexed at the repulsion some Christians express over religious education materials. It seems to really fall into the "God is just for Sundays" mindset, and I don't understand it.

 

I'm not sure how you could have read through this entire thread and got the impression that we are all promoting "Sunday only" Christianity! :)

[Mimm]

What is BFSU? :)

 

]

We're doing Asian history this year and I didn't want to teach my son about Buddha and Confucius from a christian perspective, I wanted him to learn those facts from a non-biased source.

 

 

 

Really? I would think you would want your child to learn about other religions but from a Christian perspective, as in, "This is what these people believe. There are good things about their religion. But this is why we disagree." At least, this is how I attempt to approach these things. I don't really believe in "non-biased sources" though. Everything has a bias. You can present just-the-facts of a subject, say history, but what is the interpretation of those facts? Did people act rightly or wrongly? Should they or could they have done something different? Etc. These are the types of discussions we tend to have, and these discussions are from a Christian perspective, even if God is never directly mentioned.

 

I admit to being perplexed at the repulsion some Christians express over religious education materials. It seems to really fall into the "God is just for Sundays" mindset, and I don't understand it. I'm not saying that I think math worksheets need to have scripture on them, but what's wrong with learning to spell religious words like "scapular" or "baptism?" What's wrong with a solidly scientific science program that also mentions God or references scripture, when appropriate? I think the science aspect bothers me the most, because it seems to send a very clear message that God and science can't coexist, and I don't think that's true. Dh and I are both very strong believers in accurate science, but I don't see why that means God has to be completely divorced from the subject. I agree that some programs are too cutesy and dumbed down, but it seems like some people are saying that even if they otherwise loved a curriculum, they would avoid it if it mentioned God, and I'm not understanding why. Don't mean any of that offensively, of course.

 

I don't want to turn this into a Young Earth/Old Earth debate but the problem with science is that if it's Christian, it is most likely Young Earth (from what I've seen... I admit I don't have as much knowledge of a variety of curriculum as many of the women here). To me, it seems easier to get a secular science program and talk about how we believe in God's creative force behind everything than to get a Christian program and constantly have to correct the science. But that's just me. I' m not good at science, other parents might find it easier to get a good science program and tweak it.

 

(Two Saints each convert 3 godless heathens. How many God-fearing Christians do we have altogether?:lol:)

 

:iagree: and this made me laugh out loud. :) :p

[Negin]

We're Baha'is and we homeschool secular, other than when we do our Baha'i reading, of course. But all the rest is secular - science, etc.

[elegantlion]

What is BFSU? :)

 

]

 

Really? I would think you would want your child to learn about other religions but from a Christian perspective, as in, "This is what these people believe. There are good things about their religion. But this is why we disagree." At least, this is how I attempt to approach these things. I don't really believe in "non-biased sources" though. Everything has a bias. You can present just-the-facts of a subject, say history, but what is the interpretation of those facts? Did people act rightly or wrongly? Should they or could they have done something different? Etc. These are the types of discussions we tend to have, and these discussions are from a Christian perspective, even if God is never directly mentioned.

Our focus this year has been on history, not theology. So I prefer to see the historical (secular) version of this (Eastern Philosophy) taught. I am also trying to be unbiased in my teaching and promote an understanding of other cultures/religions. I don't want the Christian perspective of Buddhism or Daoism or Islam, I'd like the version from people who practice those beliefs. In my experience, which is limited, I have seen too much hatred/intolerance spoken from the christian perspective on other beliefs. I remember a wonderful post from a practicing Muslim who detailed her beliefs. She showed me a side of her faith that I had never been taught as a christian, in fact quite the opposite. We've had some wonderful conversation this year about other faiths and seeing the commonalities in how we live, not just the difference in how we perceive our spirituality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't want to turn this into a Young Earth/Old Earth debate but the problem with science is that if it's Christian, it is most likely Young Earth (from what I've seen... I admit I don't have as much knowledge of a variety of curriculum as many of the women here). To me, it seems easier to get a secular science program and talk about how we believe in God's creative force behind everything than to get a Christian program and constantly have to correct the science. But that's just me. I' m not good at science, other parents might find it easier to get a good science program and tweak it.

 

 

 

 

This is how we approach the science and history too.

[Crimson Wife]

I would not say that we're "secular" home schoolers. Our home is Catholic, our lives are Catholic, our education is Catholic. I would never use materials that are anti-Catholic, for example. And if I were sending the kids to school I would not send them to a non-Catholic school (or even a Catholic school that wasn't doctrinally sound or that didn't have only faithful Catholic teachers) except in very extreme circumstances (even Newman speaks about when those circumstances are acceptable).

 

However, I don't go out of my way to find Christian materials for many subjects. Not that I'm opposed to them, but for the most part I've found that they are too contrived, too cutesy and much less rigorous than the secular counterparts that are available. I have trouble seeing how they contribute to a child's faith formation because knowing myself when I was a child most of the stuff I've seen would only turn me off of the Faith. I figure if I allow my kids to read Homer, Plato and Aristotle, I can let them use Singapore Math.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Wonderfully put!

[dakarimom5]

Ten years ago I homeschooled my oldest who is gifted for a year using a well known Catholic boxed curriculum. I hated it because it wasn't fun..it was boring and it was a rough year. Fast foward to this year, I'm hs a different child that had ADHD and learning disabilities...we could not use that same curriculum with any success. So while we are still Catholic I use quality stuff from different sources because it is best for this child.

[simka2]

I admit to being perplexed at the repulsion some Christians express over religious education materials. It seems to really fall into the "God is just for Sundays" mindset, and I don't understand it. I'm not saying that I think math worksheets need to have scripture on them, but what's wrong with learning to spell religious words like "scapular" or "baptism?" What's wrong with a solidly scientific science program that also mentions God or references scripture, when appropriate? I think the science aspect bothers me the most, because it seems to send a very clear message that God and science can't coexist, and I don't think that's true. Dh and I are both very strong believers in accurate science, but I don't see why that means God has to be completely divorced from the subject. I agree that some programs are too cutesy and dumbed down, but it seems like some people are saying that even if they otherwise loved a curriculum, they would avoid it if it mentioned God, and I'm not understanding why. Don't mean any of that offensively, of course.

 

Hi there! I figured I would specifically respond to this, because I was the one who specificaly mentioned "editing out" lines about God in our Apologia science curriculum.

 

Let me clarify, 1. My kids are already equipped to understand both YE and OE. They have been taught both theories. They know which one I lean towards, but I have done by best to expose them to both.

 

The reason why I edit the material is because it is interjected at strange places throughout the textbook. For example: we were reading about the structure of a birds wing and then all of a sudden it say's something like, "And isn't this amazing! See, this is one of the reasons we know that God created the birds." (My paraphrase) This happens more than once in the text. As a result I either stop and say, "Well kids that's one thought. It could also be..." Or, I edit it out and let the material flow.

 

It doesn't offend me. It is disrupting to the science I am trying to teach. Hope that made sense.

[simka2]

This is how we approach the science and history too.

Our focus this year has been on history, not theology. So I prefer to see the historical (secular) version of this (Eastern Philosophy) taught. I am also trying to be unbiased in my teaching and promote an understanding of other cultures/religions. I don't want the Christian perspective of Buddhism or Daoism or Islam, I'd like the version from people who practice those beliefs. In my experience, which is limited, I have seen too much hatred/intolerance spoken from the christian perspective on other beliefs. I remember a wonderful post from a practicing Muslim who detailed her beliefs. She showed me a side of her faith that I had never been taught as a christian, in fact quite the opposite. We've had some wonderful conversation this year about other faiths and seeing the commonalities in how we live, not just the difference in how we perceive our spirituality.

 

:iagree:This to me is so important!!! I think our (especially middleschool and above) children need to see the real side of different faiths. If our faith is good and true and healthy, that won't lead them away but it will give them respect for those cultures. Respect that will hopefully prevent the genocides of the past.

 

I think it is very possible to RESPECT another faith, while not subscribeing to it myself.

[sleepymommy]

I'm religious, I'm not Christian and I homeschool secularly. It's up to ME to provide and model religious education to my child, not the publishers of texts and schooling material.

 

 

 

 

:iagree:This to me is so important!!! I think our (especially middleschool and above) children need to see the real side of different faiths. If our faith is good and true and healthy, that won't lead them away but it will give them respect for those cultures. Respect that will hopefully prevent the genocides of the past.

 

I think it is very possible to RESPECT another faith, while not subscribeing to it myself.

 

:iagree:

 

This is SO important! Having RESPECT for another religion is different from just tolerating. We cannot be hateful or demeaning to a person of another faith if we can respect them and their faith.

 

But it is easy to get caught up in a whirlwind of hateful thoughts, speech and actions if we never had respect for them. It is easier to turn off our ears and only hear what we want to hear if there is no respect there that can keep us grounded and compassionate.

 

I do think it is important to teach your own faith, but not in a "We're right, they're wrong" kind of way. My children already know what we believe and I don't feel threatened my them learning what others believe. I approach it more as "they believe x,y,z" and leave it at that.

[sleepymommy]

Our focus this year has been on history, not theology. So I prefer to see the historical (secular) version of this (Eastern Philosophy) taught. I am also trying to be unbiased in my teaching and promote an understanding of other cultures/religions. I don't want the Christian perspective of Buddhism or Daoism or Islam, I'd like the version from people who practice those beliefs. In my experience, which is limited, I have seen too much hatred/intolerance spoken from the christian perspective on other beliefs. I remember a wonderful post from a practicing Muslim who detailed her beliefs. She showed me a side of her faith that I had never been taught as a christian, in fact quite the opposite. We've had some wonderful conversation this year about other faiths and seeing the commonalities in how we live, not just the difference in how we perceive our spirituality.

 

This is how we approach the science and history too.

 

:iagree:

 

This is how I try to approach other religions and cultures as well. Coming from a religion, culture and history that has been grossly distorted by both Christian and secular publishers, I've learned that if you want facts you go directly to studying the materials from the religion or culture you want to learn more about. Digging up factual history can be more tricky and require more research.

[kalphs]

I'm Catholic, adherent and actively practicing. I did not choose to homeschool for religious reasons and I can't say that I am selecting curriculum in order to integrate Catholicism into our homeschool. In fact, I am almost trying to avoid religious homeschooling materials (like MFW or HOD) simply because I don't want the hassle of trying to tweak the religious instruction that is included. I suppose I also feel that science should be based on scientific investigative principles and not anything else - what do we know from what we can observe and learn from our environment, and so on. I want my children to be Christians, of course, but I also think they have to want and seek that for themselves. I can hold a candle and try and light their way a bit but I can't force them into faith.

 

Is there anyone else like this out there?

Yes!

We avoid "religious homeschooling materials" for the same reasons you listed.

Dh and I teach our child about our religious faith, why we believe what we do and how it makes a difference in our lives.

Edited February 4, 2011 by kalphs

[ElizaG]

I would not say that we're "secular" home schoolers. Our home is Catholic, our lives are Catholic, our education is Catholic.

I agree. I wonder if the Catholics who call themselves "secular homeschoolers" mean something different from the way you and I understand the term. :confused:

 

The Church has a solid tradition of teaching on education. Encyclicals such as Divini Illius Magistri state very clearly that our faith should permeate all aspects of the curriculum (see especially par. 77 onward). Whenever possible, our children should attend Catholic schools, whether parochial, independent, or homeschool. Even if these schools/homeschools are using Protestant or secular textbooks for a particular subject, our beliefs and values are going to come across in the way the material is taught.

 

That said, I can understand the appeal of "going secular" in terms of curriculum. The materials from the major Catholic providers tend not to be a great fit for us. We've had some success with smaller publishers; in addition to Hillside Press, there's Ye Hedge School (Mary Daly), Our Father's House, St. George Books, and St. Paul Publications. Most of their materials are best used as supplements, though. For stand-alone curriculum, especially in the core subjects, the choices aren't so great.

 

So, to answer the OP's question: we use some secular materials, and will probably use more in the future (when I get organized enough to ditch the workbooks :tongue_smilie:) -- but even if we used no specifically Christian curriculum whatsoever, we'd never consider our homeschool to be secular.

[BBG580]

 

So, to answer the OP's question: we use some secular materials, and will probably use more in the future (when I get organized enough to ditch the workbooks :tongue_smilie:) -- but even if we used no specifically Christian curriculum whatsoever, we'd never consider our homeschool to be secular.

 

Good grief. :) I know this is a long thread but I feel like I've (and others) have addressed this over and over again! I simply meant that most of the curriculum that I select has no religious underpinnings and is "secular". Which is why I defined that as secular homeschooling.

 

Signing out, thanks everyone for your thoughts.

[Dmmetler]

I agree with most of what is listed above.

 

 

 

I've discovered as a Lutheran homeschooler that it's easier for me to start with secular materials, and add religion when it naturally fits, via discussion, than it is to start with religious materials that don't fit my worldview, and try to make them work. Sonlight has been a struggle this year in large part for this reason, and there are a few books that I've just plain dropped after pre-reading and substituted. I like a lot of things about the program, but when they started listing Catholics as people who need the savior, I knew I couldn't teach it as written!

 

Similarly, I've found secular homeschooling activities easier to work with than Christian ones, too. And I think it adds to, not subtracts from, my DD's understanding of religion when she has a chance to visit a Hindu home and find out a little about their culture via simply playing with those children and seeing what the families do, then coming home and talking about it.

[HRAAB]

I would think for most devout believers (insert type), that your beliefs would be a part of the very air you breathe. For a Christian, wouldn't everything start with God the Creator. It seems every subject would be touched by how you view God and creation, the purpose of creation, God as the author of all life and knowledge. History would be viewed before the Incarnation and after. How could you separate knowledge/learning from God?

 

I don't use much religious material. I am using Seton's 8th gr. English because it's rigorous, and I wanted an outside source to grade my dds writing - not for the religion. In fact, I find all the religious references added into grammar books, math books and such to be distracting and actually, I find it artificial.

 

I think I really bungled what I was trying to say. :tongue_smilie:

[Jayne J]

I would think for most devout believers (insert type), that your beliefs would be a part of the very air you breathe. For a Christian, wouldn't everything start with God the Creator. It seems every subject would be touched by how you view God and creation, the purpose of creation, God as the author of all life and knowledge. History would be viewed before the Incarnation and after. How could you separate knowledge/learning from God?

.....

I think I really bungled what I was trying to say. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I don't think you bungled it--I think you hit the nail square on the head and said what many of us are trying to say--our faith IS how we live our lives, and using "secular" material doesn't change the fact that we believe God to be behind every. single. true. thing. All of it. And adding little pictures of nuns, or lines of Scripture, or word problems involving godless heathens doesn't really make a math book Christian. Is it true? Then it is from God and not "secular" in the sense of rejecting God. If it is false, no amount of Scripture printed at the bottom can make it from God.

[Mimm]

"Our focus this year has been on history, not theology. So I prefer to see the historical (secular) version of this (Eastern Philosophy) taught. I am also trying to be unbiased in my teaching and promote an understanding of other cultures/religions. I don't want the Christian perspective of Buddhism or Daoism or Islam, I'd like the version from people who practice those beliefs. In my experience, which is limited, I have seen too much hatred/intolerance spoken from the christian perspective on other beliefs. I remember a wonderful post from a practicing Muslim who detailed her beliefs. She showed me a side of her faith that I had never been taught as a christian, in fact quite the opposite. We've had some wonderful conversation this year about other faiths and seeing the commonalities in how we live, not just the difference in how we perceive our spirituality."

 

I appreciate the answer and I agree with your goals. I guess I just don't equate "Christian perspective" with "lack of respect toward other beliefs". I know there are a lot of Christians who would show lack of respect toward other beliefs but that doesn't necessarily mean those actions are automatically Christian. Not sure this is making sense. :)

 

Anyway, the homeschoolers I have known in the past would be unlikely to teach about other beliefs at all except for a very brief mention and a (probably inaccurate) description.

[simka2]

Then it is from God and not "secular" in the sense of rejecting God. If it is false, no amount of Scripture printed at the bottom can make it from God.

 

I agree first and foremost, but I am curious where the definition of "secular" as being a rejection of God came from. I've never really thought of it in that way. I've always just thought it was the absence of religion, whether that is christianity or buddhism.

[Scarlett]

I'm Catholic, adherent and actively practicing. I did not choose to homeschool for religious reasons and I can't say that I am selecting curriculum in order to integrate Catholicism into our homeschool. In fact, I am almost trying to avoid religious homeschooling materials (like MFW or HOD) simply because I don't want the hassle of trying to tweak the religious instruction that is included.

Is there anyone else like this out there?

 

I don't teach from a religious curriculum....but I do 'teach' our religion in day to day life.

[FaithManor]

Simka, I have encountered this attitude or false definition of "secular" from many homeschoolers in our area. It's one reason we do not attend any homeschool group because there is a real discrimination and snubbing that goes on as soon as I divulge that we are classical homeschoolers. Instantly, we are condemned as those who can not possibly be Christian because a good Christian would never teach their child about Greek myths or the religion of the ancient Egyptians, or read a non-Christian author. The director of our closest homeschool group disallows her children to read any books not published by "christian" publishing houses. We've been called some rather derogatory terms.

 

This is why I identify myself as a secular homeschooler though I love the Lord and teach my children the Holy Scriptures and theology. I am much more at home with those homeschoolers who are not so narrow minded. I figure that if Jesus was a friend of sinners, than I can be no less. Since Paul and Peter clearly display a high level of education, Paul's in particular steeped in the history and religious teaching of the Greeks and Romans, Luke was a doctor and would have undoubtedly known and understand the religious practices of other cultures since the practice of medicine in that day was not separated from religious beliefs, then I want for my children no less of an education. By in large, I cannot find Christian materials and especially as it pertains to history and literature, that will provide them with this education and prepare them to give a reasoned defense for their faith (1 Peter 3:15). Instead, I normally find a political or religious agenda not rooted in scripture that dh and I cannot personally abide.

 

Faith

[Miss Sherry]

If I follow your logic...then if my child goes to public school, but has a christian teacher...they are getting a christian education? Her world view would be communicated and the education wouldn't be secular?

 

Do you see what I am getting at? I understand what you are saying, but I do think there is a line between secular materials and overtly christian ones. And I'm not saying that secular is bad. ;)

No, just because she is a "christian" does not mean your child would get a "christian" education by her. I didn't say that. And yes, I also think there is a line between "secular" materials and overtly christian ones. But an education doesn't just consist of which materials you use. It is also about how they are presented to the child. What kind of input etc. etc.

"And I'm not saying that secular is bad" What do you mean by that ? As a christian do you mean that "disregarding God" in the education of your child is not "bad",( I doubt that's what you mean)

or that a using a book one would label "secular" is not bad ?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really, I'm a little disappointed that you have said "If I follow your logic .....then if my child goes to ps , but has a christian teacher, they are getting a christian education"

I never said any such thing. You did a LOT of speculation to come up with that. Now I feel that everything I wrote was a waste of time and nothing I said got across at all. By the way - I never said that someone's world view is automatically communicated because they have one, but I do believe we ALL have a world view, defined or not, and it does come out in various ways. Like I said before, I do not think an education IS neutral. That does not equal me saying at all that putting your child in ps with a christian teacher equals a christian education. You came up with that one on your own.

Well, I think I'll stop posting in this thread now.

Wow, now I feel all that I've said here was completely twisted and not taken AT ALL as I meant it.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Miss Sherry

[simka2]

No, just because she is a "christian" does not mean your child would get a "christian" education by her. I didn't say that. And yes, I also think there is a line between "secular" materials and overtly christian ones. But an education doesn't just consist of which materials you use. It is also about how they are presented to the child. What kind of input etc. etc.

"And I'm not saying that secular is bad" What do you mean by that ? As a christian do you mean that "disregarding God" in the education of your child is not "bad",( I doubt that's what you mean)

or that a using a book one would label "secular" is not bad ?[/QUOTE]

 

This.

[Slartibartfast]

I admit to being perplexed at the repulsion some Christians express over religious education materials. It seems to really fall into the "God is just for Sundays" mindset, and I don't understand it. I'm not saying that I think math worksheets need to have scripture on them, but what's wrong with learning to spell religious words like "scapular" or "baptism?" What's wrong with a solidly scientific science program that also mentions God or references scripture, when appropriate? I think the science aspect bothers me the most, because it seems to send a very clear message that God and science can't coexist, and I don't think that's true. Dh and I are both very strong believers in accurate science, but I don't see why that means God has to be completely divorced from the subject. I agree that some programs are too cutesy and dumbed down, but it seems like some people are saying that even if they otherwise loved a curriculum, they would avoid it if it mentioned God, and I'm not understanding why. Don't mean any of that offensively, of course.

 

I do not believe that God and and Science are totally seperate. However, I am not going to teach my fourth grader that without having strong foundations. I don't want to confused my grade school child with anything like that until she understands the basic principals.

 

I do find some of it just ridiculous like the fake dinosaurs thing. I couldn't teach that to my child.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Sis

[simka2]

No, just because she is a "christian" does not mean your child would get a "christian" education by her. I didn't say that. And yes, I also think there is a line between "secular" materials and overtly christian ones. But an education doesn't just consist of which materials you use. It is also about how they are presented to the child. What kind of input etc. etc.

"And I'm not saying that secular is bad" What do you mean by that ? As a christian do you mean that "disregarding God" in the education of your child is not "bad",( I doubt that's what you mean)

or that a using a book one would label "secular" is not bad ?

 

Really, I'm a little disappointed that you have said "If I follow your logic .....then if my child goes to ps , but has a christian teacher, they are getting a christian education"

I never said any such thing. You did a LOT of speculation to come up with that. Now I feel that everything I wrote was a waste of time and nothing I said got across at all.

Well, I think I'll stop posting in this thread now.

Wow, now I feel all that I've said here was completely twisted and not taken AT ALL as I meant it.

I am genuinely sorry that you found my response offensive. I was quite literally trying to understand what you had posted.

[Miss Sherry]

Simka2

 

Really, I'm a little disappointed that you have said "If I follow your logic .....then if my child goes to ps , but has a christian teacher, they are getting a christian education"

I never said any such thing. You did a LOT of speculation to come up with that. Now I feel that everything I wrote was a waste of time and nothing I said got across at all. By the way - I never said that someone's world view is automatically communicated because they have one, but I do believe we ALL have a world view, defined or not, and it does come out in various ways. Like I said before, I do not think an education IS neutral. That does not equal me saying at all that putting your child in ps with a christian teacher equals a christian education. You came up with that one on your own.

Well, I think I'll stop posting in this thread now.

Wow, now I feel all that I've said here was completely twisted and not taken AT ALL as I meant it.

[simka2]

Simka2

 

Really, I'm a little disappointed that you have said "If I follow your logic .....then if my child goes to ps , but has a christian teacher, they are getting a christian education"

I never said any such thing. You did a LOT of speculation to come up with that. Now I feel that everything I wrote was a waste of time and nothing I said got across at all. By the way - I never said that someone's world view is automatically communicated because they have one, but I do believe we ALL have a world view, defined or not, and it does come out in various ways. Like I said before, I do not think an education IS neutral. That does not equal me saying at all that putting your child in ps with a christian teacher equals a christian education. You came up with that one on your own.

Well, I think I'll stop posting in this thread now.

Wow, now I feel all that I've said here was completely twisted and not taken AT ALL as I meant it.

 

But that was my understanding of what you were saying. When I say, "If "I"follow..." I'm saying this is my impression...is it accurate? did I miss something?

 

There was nothing snarky or rude in it.

[Crimson Wife]

I agree first and foremost, but I am curious where the definition of "secular" as being a rejection of God came from. I've never really thought of it in that way. I've always just thought it was the absence of religion, whether that is christianity or buddhism.

 

Secular doesn't automatically mean anti-religious. Some secular materials *DO* have an anti-Christian bias but many are neutral. History is where I tend to find the biggest problem with biased materials because of all the "hot button" issues.

 

If I were a YEC, I'd also have an issue with secular science materials, but I personally believe in (theistic) evolution and an age of the universe in the billions of years.

[ElizaG]

And yes, I also think there is a line between "secular" materials and overtly christian ones. But an education doesn't just consist of which materials you use. It is also about how they are presented to the child. What kind of input etc. etc.

This is what I was trying to say. "Homeschooling using non-religious materials" does not automatically equate to "secular homeschooling." After all, education depends on the teacher, at least as much as it depends on what books are used.

 

The term "secular education" comes from the separation of church and state. In this model, children are supposed to be taught in a way that's religiously neutral. Each family's religious beliefs and practices (if any) are taught privately, outside of school time. I get the impression that many non-Christians, and some Protestants, find this approach to be acceptable and maybe even desirable. For Catholics, this is not the case. In a non-Catholic state, even if the public schools were academically excellent and free of any material that we found objectionable, we still wouldn't consider them to be an ideal environment for our children, because they'd be lacking the proper moral, spiritual, and historical context across the whole curriculum. This is why the popes have issued encyclicals on the subject. It's also why, historically, we've fought so strongly against mandatory public education. It really is a big deal to us, which is why I hope people will take care with their choice of labels.

 

This isn't to say that Catholics can never, under any circumstances, send their children to public schools. (That's a whole other kettle of fish.) It's just that their model of religious neutrality, AKA "secular" education, isn't something we'd want to copy in our own efforts at educating our children.

[lamamaloca]

I am a practicing Catholic, but am looking at mostly secular materials for next year. I haven't been happy with the Christian (Protestant or Catholic) science or history materials that I've looked at, for the most part. And while I think that our "homeschool" is definitely a Catholic homeschool, I don't think that making sure that every subject is from a Catholic publisher necessarily adds to that. I tend to think that the most Catholic approach is to choose the best materials for each subject, and our faith will permeate our lives whether those materials are Catholic, Protestant or secular.

[mcconnellboys]

Yes, this is the way we approach our homeschooling, too....

[~Kirsten~]

Jess (if you're still checking :D), I would have labeled myself similarly to you, a Catholic convert using mostly secular materials. After skimming through this thread, I can see why it might be more appropriate to use the phrase "non-religious" materials. I'm not at all interested in "school-in-a-box" education, which largely what I've encountered with Catholic materials. As a new-ish convert, I'm not as comfortable editing Protestant texts, and frankly, I *do* have a leftover knee-jerk reaction to many of them anyway. I've used BFSU (someone asked--it's Building Foundations of Scientific Understanding), which is definitely secular by anyone's definition. We use Elemental Science and SotW, both of which attempt to be non-religious though written by Christian authors. And speaking of editing, I know I'll have some work to do when we hit the Reformation.

 

My children attend RE at our parish, though we supplement that at home as well. We live our faith, together as a family. But we don't exclusively or purposefully use Catholic or even Christian materials for our homeschool. We use what we deem as the best materials for each child.

 

For whatever it's worth, I recently stumbled across Mater Amabilis, a Catholic, Charlotte Mason-style, free curriculum, and I think it will be a wonderful supplement to what we're doing, as far as book recommendations and ideas for religious ed at home. I just thought I'd pass it along as some here might enjoy it as well.

 

Best wishes in your journey!

[Miss Sherry]

This is what I was trying to say. "Homeschooling using non-religious materials" does not automatically equate to "secular homeschooling." After all, education depends on the teacher, at least as much as it depends on what books are used.

 

The term "secular education" comes from the separation of church and state. In this model, children are supposed to be taught in a way that's religiously neutral. Each family's religious beliefs and practices (if any) are taught privately, outside of school time. I get the impression that many non-Christians, and some Protestants, find this approach to be acceptable and maybe even desirable. For Catholics, this is not the case. In a non-Catholic state, even if the public schools were academically excellent and free of any material that we found objectionable, we still wouldn't consider them to be an ideal environment for our children, because they'd be lacking the proper moral, spiritual, and historical context across the whole curriculum. This is why the popes have issued encyclicals on the subject. It's also why, historically, we've fought so strongly against mandatory public education. It really is a big deal to us, which is why I hope people will take care with their choice of labels.

 

This isn't to say that Catholics can never, under any circumstances, send their children to public schools. (That's a whole other kettle of fish.) It's just that their model of religious neutrality, AKA "secular" education, isn't something we'd want to copy in our own efforts at educating our children.

"This is what I was trying to say. "Homeschooling using non-religious materials" does not automatically equate to "secular homeschooling." After all, education depends on the teacher, at least as much as it depends on what books are used. ":iagree:Certainly, it's not just all about the books. It just sounds odd to me for a christian to say they are giving their child a "secular " education, when what they are doing is simply using some "secular" books. Do they think the books they use are the total essence of their child's education, or maybe some do intend on "leaving God and religion " out of their child's education. It does tend to make you wonder.

 

 

 

 

 

My impression of what "secular " is , is that it is religiously neutral - meaning God and religion is left out - and at times it is taken to the extreme of being hostile toward God, but that is not to imply that someone using "secular"(non religious) materials is hostile towards God. I think a lot of the problem some Christians may have with the term "secular" is that there ARE some secular people who ARE hostile towards God and religion.

In the dictionary titled "The All Nations Christian Home & School Dictionary " here is one definition of secular . 1.Worldly; not spiritual or religious.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Miss Sherry

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I admit to being perplexed at the repulsion some Christians express over religious education materials. It seems to really fall into the "God is just for Sundays" mindset, and I don't understand it. I'm not saying that I think math worksheets need to have scripture on them, but what's wrong with learning to spell religious words like "scapular" or "baptism?" What's wrong with a solidly scientific science program that also mentions God or references scripture, when appropriate? I think the science aspect bothers me the most, because it seems to send a very clear message that God and science can't coexist, and I don't think that's true. Dh and I are both very strong believers in accurate science, but I don't see why that means God has to be completely divorced from the subject. I agree that some programs are too cutesy and dumbed down, but it seems like some people are saying that even if they otherwise loved a curriculum, they would avoid it if it mentioned God, and I'm not understanding why. Don't mean any of that offensively, of course.

 

I don't see choosing secular materials as "God is just for Sundays" mindset at all or as someone mentioned earlier as not honoring God. I see secular materials as neutral in the religion department which I prefer since I would much rather instill my own beliefs and ideas about religion than someone else's:D

[Miss Sherry]

I don't see choosing secular materials as "God is just for Sundays" mindset at all or as someone mentioned earlier as not honoring God. I see secular materials as neutral in the religion department which I prefer since I would much rather instill my own beliefs and ideas about religion than someone else's:D

I think using "secular" materials is one thing. yes, I agree a child can receive a religious education from a parent who is using secular books. But when a christian parent says that their homeschool IS secular, that sounds like something totally different.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

 

 

My impression of what "secular " is , is that it is religiously neutral - meaning God and religion is left out - and at times it is taken to the extreme of being hostile toward God, but that is not to imply that someone using "secular"(non religious) materials is hostile towards God. I think a lot of the problem some Christians may have with the term "secular" is that there ARE some secular people who ARE hostile towards God and religion.

In the dictionary titled "The All Nations Christian Home & School Dictionary " here is one definition of secular . 1.Worldly; not spiritual or religious.

 

 

I don't see secular materials as hostile towards God at all since they would not be neutral then IMHO. Some people think public schools are hostile towards God since they are secular and I disagree. IMO public are trying to stay neutral and to keep the separation of Church and state which I wholeheartedly support:)

[Miss Sherry]

I don't see secular materials as hostile towards God at all since they would not be neutral then IMHO. Some people think public schools are hostile towards God since they are secular and I disagree. IMO public are trying to stay neutral and to keep the separation of Church and state which I wholeheartedly support:)

I think how "hostile" towards God you think the ps can be depends on what your experience with ps has been. I went to a public hs that certainly did have some teachers that DID express anti religious views. For example, one high school teacher made some very derogatory remarks regarding Christianity in a Humanities class during a lecture - it was a history lecture - about what a terrible, unbearable burden Christianity is, among other things she said. She was clearly anti christian in her thinking.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I think how "hostile" towards God you think the ps can be depends on what your experience with ps has been. I went to a public hs that certainly did have some teachers that DID express anti religious views. For example, one high school teacher made some very derogatory remarks regarding Christianity in a Humanities class during a lecture - it was a history lecture - about what a terrible, unbearable burden Christianity is, among other things she said. She was clearly anti christian in her thinking.

 

Yes but she sounds like a rogue teacher who was not following school policy. You will find people in all venues who do not follow the rules:(.

[Miss Sherry]

I don't see secular materials as hostile towards God at all since they would not be neutral then IMHO. Some people think public schools are hostile towards God since they are secular and I disagree. IMO public are trying to stay neutral and to keep the separation of Church and state which I wholeheartedly support:)

I didn't say secular materials are hostile towards God. However, I think there ARE some secular materials which are hostile towards God, but I am not thinking of textbooks. Any form of media can come under the label of secular material. I do think some people who are secular are HOSTILE towards God. But that doesn't mean that secular equals hostility towards God. I think I already said that.

[Miss Sherry]

Yes but she sounds like a rogue teacher who was not following school policy.

Oh, I think there are plenty of "rogue" teachers, if you want to call it that.

It went right along with the subject she was teaching which was Secular Humanism. The class was a humanities class. The belief system behind secular humanism is very opposed to the belief system of Christianity.

[kalphs]

I see secular materials as neutral in the religion department which I prefer since I would much rather instill my own beliefs and ideas about religion than someone else's:D

:iagree:

[kalphs]

Good grief. :) I know this is a long thread but I feel like I've (and others) have addressed this over and over again! I simply meant that most of the curriculum that I select has no religious underpinnings and is "secular". Which is why I defined that as secular homeschooling.

 

Signing out, thanks everyone for your thoughts.

:grouphug:

I understood what you meant in your OP.