Mandarin, English and another?

[sparks]

My ds does both English and Mandarin(Chinese). We are fortunate to live in a country where we acquired both languages rather effortlessly. However we are thinking of starting either Latin and/or Classical Chinese. This will involve some work now :001_smile:

 

Can anyone share any experience you have of either? I studied Latin for a while but not Classical Chinese (which is very very different from Chinese). Both are classical languages and I do not think I can handle two languages (yes it is me). Latin seems more straightforward at this point, though Chinese could be, well, practical :D

 

Can anyone share your views on this?

[Matryoshka]

Can anyone share any experience you have of either? I studied Latin for a while but not Classical Chinese (which is very very different from Chinese). Both are classical languages and I do not think I can handle two languages (yes it is me). Latin seems more straightforward at this point, though Chinese could be, well, practical :D

 

 

Just curious - could you explain the differences between Classical Chinese and Mandarin/other modern Chinese dialects? Are you learning the spoken language, or just how to read/write it? If the latter, I thought the characters hadn't changed all that much in meaning over time? I know they were simplified very recently by Mao - was there some other earlier big change? If spoken, how do they even know how it sounded since the written langauge has virtually no phonetic elements?

[Tattarrattat]

From what was described in OP, I would guess by saying "Classical Chinese", she meant the written Chinese language used in at least more than a hundred years ago that are still learned among native Chinese speakers as a way to understand and study classical literature and history from hundreds or thousands of years ago because those are important part of Chinese heritage, though people no longer wrote that way since Modern Chinese was promoted was promoted . Majority of the characters may still be the same between classical and modern, but the meaning could be totally different. Even for native Chinese speakers, this is challenging, not to say for non-native Chinese speakers. If this is what you meant, then I applaud your effort to study such a challenging language.

 

When people differentiate Simplified Chinese from Traditional Chinese, it just means the different ways to write the some of the characters, the meaning of the these characters and the way people speak and write is still the same (or similar). This was due to the characters reformation in 1950s after Mao took over mainland China to make writing and reading of Chinese characters more simplified. This is totally different from the classification of Classical vs. Modern. Chinese from mainland China and from overseas can both study classical Chinese literature in characters of their choice (Simplified or Traditional), though neither writes the same way as when Classical Chinese was used in writing hundreds years ago).

 

Though it is possible that OP simply meant "Traditional Chinese characters" in her post.

 

By the way, I am Chinese myself though it's been a long time ago when I studied Chinese classics. I did love those classics so much back then.

[Matryoshka]

From what was described in OP, I would guess by saying "Classical Chinese", she meant the written Chinese language used in at least more than a hundred years ago that are still learned among native Chinese speakers as a way to understand and study classical literature and history from hundreds or thousands of years ago because those are important part of Chinese heritage, though people no longer wrote that way since Modern Chinese was promoted was promoted . Majority of the characters may still be the same between classical and modern, but the meaning could be totally different. Even for native Chinese speakers, this is challenging, not to say for non-native Chinese speakers. If this is what you meant, then I applaud your effort to study such a challenging language.

 

 

This is fascinating! Did the meanings and characters change organically over time from Classical to Modern, or did some emperor or ruler promote a big change somewhat akin to what Mao did with Simplified? Anotherwords, was there a gradual shift, or is there a stark dilineation between Classical and Modern written Chinese? About when did this shift or change occur?

 

(I'm just being nosy here - I love learning about this kind of stuff!)

[jennynd]

simplified Chinese is from Mao. Not modernized process. In my opinion, it took away the beauty of chinese character. Taiwan still uses traditional Chinese, which is harder to learn but if you look at those chinese word art, they uses traditional Chinese. I myself plan to teach my son simplified, beacuse it is easier and because more Chinese using it than traditional Chinese. It is unfortunate....

Classical Chinese is hard to understand the meaning. It is like the word used in Shakespeare. I have to study those when in school, It is quite fun actually.

 

 

This is fascinating! Did the meanings and characters change organically over time from Classical to Modern, or did some emperor or ruler promote a big change somewhat akin to what Mao did with Simplified? Anotherwords, was there a gradual shift, or is there a stark dilineation between Classical and Modern written Chinese? About when did this shift or change occur?

 

(I'm just being nosy here - I love learning about this kind of stuff!)

[Tattarrattat]

I have to refresh my memory by doing a quick search, because I’d rather not to provide some incorrect information. Of course there are always different opinions when it comes to history.

First, regarding the difference between written language(here I mean writing style, not about the character strokes) and conversational language . in another word, how people put on paper vs. how people speak in their daily life. Chinese writing first became possible about 3000 years ago when characters were created. In the early stage, people wrote the same way as they talked. This lasted from Chin and Han dynasty etc. until Tang dynasty. Tang(618-907 AD) and Song(960-1276 AD) dynasties (especially Tang) were when literature and economy prospered. So many famous masterpieces were from that time. Meanwhile, oral language went through more dramatic changes. Conversation style changed (think of slang, but of course quite different from what we call slang), but written style was preserved and stayed the same. People had no difficulties understanding written language yet talked in a more relaxed way. There were some very famous literature works using conversational style. For example, what we call “Four Famous Chinese classics (Dream of the Red Chamber, Outlaws of the Marsh, Journey to the West, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms) were actually written in a easier-to-understand language instead of formal written language back then. But still the most accepted writing style is still the same as ancient times (to them). It was until the late beginning of last century( around 1919), that some famous intellectuals started New Culture Movement, which promoted language reform. They went to the extreme to criticize Classic Chinese writing styles and promoted modern conversational writing (modern vernacular Chinese). Ironically, These very people were the ones who had mastered the classical method the best. Regardless of their initial intention, Modern Chinese writing style has been more accepted and since that movement and has become the dominant style to date.

 

I have to say that, people tried to put language evolvement into different stages. But in history, it usually has been a gradual process, unless of course some dramatic movement like mentioned above which would make the process more noticeable.

 

As for the evolvement of characters themselves, it was also a gradual process in ancient times. Characters have always gone through changes (usually simplifications). These were reflected in different calligraphy styles. Today what we call traditional Chinese characters are definitely different from the characters used when they were first created. But none of such changes were as dramatic and intentional as what Mao did in 1950s and 1960s. Looking back, there were so many drawbacks in the decision. Then again, that was history. What Mao did was basically to have simplified the radicals or combined homophones. Chinese characters are pictographic or ideographic (unlike many languages that are sound-based). So the strokes represented the meaning of the words. Simplification to some degree has damaged the connection between the character and its meaning. For example, homophones that used to have different characters representing different meanings now are combined and simplified into one character. People wouldn’t be able to grasp the meaning from the characters themselves.

Regardless of Mao’s intentions back then, simplified Chinese has gained more ground in the past half century and well accepted. I think some overseas countries that have large Chinese population like Malaysia and Singapore also adopted simplified Chinese.

 

 

I grew up learning simplified Chinese and later on taught myself traditional characters (reading, understanding but rarely writing them myself). As for my kids, I debated whether to teach them traditional or simplified Chinese characters (DH learned Traditional Chinese when he was little) and decided to go with simplified Chinese. I felt it’d be easier for me to teach them since I’m more familiar with it. Also, it’s easier for them to learn. Without proper language environment, it’s quite challenging for kids to learn a language even if it’s their parent’s native language. Of course, given the global importance of mainland China, understanding simplified Chinese should be enough for the kids to communicate with Chinese people if there is such need in the future.

Though I’m familiar with those Chinese terms regarding Chinese language history, I’m not quite familiar with the agreed English translation of those terms. But I think Classical Chinese is used when people describe classical writing style, Modern Chinese or Modern Vernacular Chinese is used for the modern writing style. Of course, Traditional Chinese means the characters used before Mao and are still used by a lot of Chinese outside mainland China (Taiwan, Hong Kong etc.) , Simplified Chinese means the Characters used in mainland China and some other Chinese communities.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Tattarrattat
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[Tattarrattat]

Yesterday was the Chinese New Year. I watched the Spring Festival (Chinese New Year) show broadcasted from China. One specific program prompted me to think. 6 or 7 people aged from young to old, all from different countries, but none of them ethnic Chinese. They wore traditional Chinese clothes, talked in very impressive Chinese, quoted ancient Chinese poems, sang Chinese songs, even joked in Chinese.

 

That kind of encouraged me to think maybe I should put more effort in teaching my kids Chinese. If they can overcome the difficulties to master a foreign language so well, then others can do the same thing, especially those whose parents already speak that language. Well, I'm guessing some of those people on the show problably studied or worked in China for a period of time, but still their Chinese is very impressive.

 

By the way Happy Chinese New Year to all the Chinese on this board and to all the people who are interested in Chinese or other Asian cultures or languages!

[cellocoffee]

New member here: teaching my dd traditional & classical Chinese was my main reason to HS.

Benefit of learning traditional Chinese is that it's easy to learn simplified after you gain the basics of using traditional but not the other way round as easily.

 

IMO it's inevitable to learn some classical Chinese once you r in advanced level. Ancient proverbs and sayings r used daily to convey vivid ideas.

My dh is not Chinese and my 7yr old is his Chinese tutor now.

 

On the other hand, we plan to start Latin in the next academic year.

 

 

Cellocoffee, cellist

Dd 7, cello(of course)/piano/art/SL 1-2, miquon/Saxon2/Sing 2, Muzzy French, traditional Chinese using real Chinese poetry&literature

Dd 2, pretend to play cello, can draw a smile, speaking Chinese 10 times fluent than English, count to 10 in 3 languages

[sparks]

Hi all

 

Forgot about my post! Apologies!

 

By 'Classical' I really meant 文言文, not 繁体字。That is really the study of Chinese classics.

 

For Chinese characters I grew up learning 简体字. I just teach my children that since they do have to take compulsory national exam when they are 12.

 

Yes I fancy Latin more as 文言文 seems slightly more daunting. Btw, we are Chinese :)

[Rosie_0801]

If I were you, I'd pick another official UN language.

 

But I'm not you :)

 

Rosie